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Traffic Signals Now Controlled By Stop Signs

Started by Brandon, March 26, 2014, 04:47:48 PM

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Brandon

I've seen, in more than a few places, older traffic signals just left in place while the intersection is now controlled by stop signs.

Here's a few:

6th and Madison, Gary, Indiana
State and 38th, East St Louis, Illinois

Any more out there (as I am very certain there are)?
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PHLBOS

Had you been in Philadelphia during the mid-90s; there were a ton of signalized intersections of minor streets that were converted to all-way STOP signs.  Within a few years, the signals & poles were eventually removed.

The reason for converting those intersections were due to cost & maintenance.
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Brian556

Crockett (Old US 69) at Hull. Denison, TX
This one may no longer be needed due to US 69 being moved off this street.
https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.745815,-96.532537&spn=0.000013,0.006228&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=33.745815,-96.532537&panoid=H11rMVSkXa24YnXRwzN8mg&cbp=12,355.31,,0,0

There are multiple intersections like this in Gainesville, TX. They only have one of the two signal heads per direction flashing dimly, but do have stop signs.
https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.62597,-97.150476&spn=0.000018,0.012456&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=33.62597,-97.150476&panoid=AbXKDlQ_WcHT4oUbgrmxlA&cbp=12,296.83,,0,0

I'm wondering if Gainesville really had enough traffic at one time to warrant these signals.

There was one of these on the I-30 frontage roads in Dallas near the main Post Office. It was removed, probably when I-30 was widened.

Ian

Quote from: PHLBOS on March 26, 2014, 04:55:18 PM
Had you been in Philadelphia during the mid-90s; there were a ton of signalized intersections of minor streets that were converted to all-way STOP signs.  Within a few years, the signals & poles were eventually removed.

The reason for converting those intersections were due to cost & maintenance.

The intersection of Upland (PA 320) and 7th Streets in Chester is still like that.
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hotdogPi

Are the stop signs actually needed? I thought that a traffic light that's off means the same as a stop sign.

(I don't drive, so I may be wrong about this.)
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1995hoo

Quote from: 1 on March 26, 2014, 10:25:37 PM
Are the stop signs actually needed? I thought that a traffic light that's off means the same as a stop sign.

(I don't drive, so I may be wrong about this.)

Not everywhere. Maryland didn't have that law as recently as last year. There was talk of changing it, but I don't know whether they actually did.
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ap70621

There is an intersection on Main Street in Franklin Borough, NJ with an old set of traffic lights. The cross street has stop signs and the signals flash red. The Main Street signals flash yellow.

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getemngo

Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on March 28, 2014, 04:40:24 PM
These seem to be common in Detroit.

Not surprising, since Detroit has decommissioned over 100 signals in the last 10 years. I encountered a lot of signals in permanent flash mode the time my car got towed to Mexicantown.

In a much more rural part of the state, a lot of signals in the Thumb have been removed in the last few years. At least in 2012, the intersection in Port Austin where M-25 makes a 90 degree turn still had the signal up, but was controlled by stop signs.
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jeffandnicole

Quote from: 1 on March 26, 2014, 10:25:37 PM
Are the stop signs actually needed? I thought that a traffic light that's off means the same as a stop sign.

(I don't drive, so I may be wrong about this.)

Generally, yes, although that's usually reserved in emergency situations. If it's permanent, better to have stop signs.

Next question: if the turned-off traffic light is still there, and the cross street has stop signs, how do the drivers on the "go" street know they don't have to stop?

My answer: it's usually the main road, or an off-season where most of the drivers are locals. (LBI, NJ comes to mind)

getemngo

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 30, 2014, 09:40:35 PM
Next question: if the turned-off traffic light is still there, and the cross street has stop signs, how do the drivers on the "go" street know they don't have to stop?

My answer: it's usually the main road, or an off-season where most of the drivers are locals. (LBI, NJ comes to mind)

Have you seen any instances of this? Everything in the thread so far falls into two categories:

  • The signal is operating, but in flash mode.
  • If the signal is turned off completely, it's signed as an all-way stop.
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jeffandnicole

As mentioned, Long Beach Island in NJ during the off season. This was especially true the winter & spring after Superstorm Sandy came thru.

mrsman

If the warrants for a traffic signal are no longer met, would the DOT be required to remove the signal?

I ask because there are several signals that I'm familiar with that are surprisingly still in place, even though it would probably make sense to decomission.

Take this example from Los Angeles:  Arden and Rosewood in Hancock Park http://goo.gl/maps/cmZUu

I have a hard time seeing that this intersection ever warranted a traffic light.  Arden is one block from Rossmore, which is the southern extension of Vine Street. 
Rossmore has a lot of traffic, but it generally moves well, there really isn't that much traffic on Arden or Rosewood.  I believe that nothing more than a 4-way stop would ever be necessary.  And if this light can be removed, maybe the city can put in place a signal in a more warranted location where a signal is currently lacking due to budget considerations.  [like Palms/Inglewood in the Mar Vista section for example]


Alex

Quote from: Ian on March 26, 2014, 10:23:37 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 26, 2014, 04:55:18 PM
Had you been in Philadelphia during the mid-90s; there were a ton of signalized intersections of minor streets that were converted to all-way STOP signs.  Within a few years, the signals & poles were eventually removed.

The reason for converting those intersections were due to cost & maintenance.

The intersection of Upland (PA 320) and 7th Streets in Chester is still like that.

Loved that one!

Here is one that was posted in Mobile. It was later replaced with a double red flasher:



These flashed red in all directions.

Brian556

In every example I've seen, STOP signs have been installed if the signal is in permanent flash mode or deactivated. If it is not an ALL WAY STOP, then CROSS TRAFFIC DOES NOT STOP plaques should be and typically are used. It would be totally wrong and unsafe to turn off a signal without installing stop signs. People don't even know to stop for a signal that is experiencing a power failure. Also, a turned off signal would be impossible to see at night, and some people wouldn't even notice it the daytime.

froggie

QuoteIf the warrants for a traffic signal are no longer met, would the DOT be required to remove the signal?

Not required, AFAIK, but there's nothing stopping the DOT (or local jurisdiction) from removing the signal if it no longer meets warrants.

Came upon one last week in Gaylord, MN where MnDOT recently removed the signal at the eastern MN 5/MN 19/MN 22 junction.  They only removed the signalheads, but retained the mast arms so as to keep the mast arm-mounted trailblazer signs.  The new configuration is now 2-way stop control, with MN 5/19 being the "main route".

mrsman

Quote from: Brian556 on April 06, 2014, 06:45:40 PM
In every example I've seen, STOP signs have been installed if the signal is in permanent flash mode or deactivated. If it is not an ALL WAY STOP, then CROSS TRAFFIC DOES NOT STOP plaques should be and typically are used. It would be totally wrong and unsafe to turn off a signal without installing stop signs. People don't even know to stop for a signal that is experiencing a power failure. Also, a turned off signal would be impossible to see at night, and some people wouldn't even notice it the daytime.

Is there also a requirement that if the traffic signal is permanently deactivated, the signal faces need to be covered or turned aside?

I frequently see this when a new traffic light is getting ready to be installed.  Until the electricity is turned on, the signals are in some way "obscured" so that traffic will not treat this like a signal that lost its power and instead follow the traditional markings on the road, like stop signs.

djlynch

There are several locations along Texas 130 near Lockhart where the frontage road and/or US 183 have lights at cross streets that were set to permanent flash with only two-way stops a matter of months after the road opened. TxDOT is coming under fire for the decision because there have been numerous serious accidents at these locations.

algorerhythms

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2014, 10:53:45 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 26, 2014, 10:25:37 PM
Are the stop signs actually needed? I thought that a traffic light that's off means the same as a stop sign.

(I don't drive, so I may be wrong about this.)

Not everywhere. Maryland didn't have that law as recently as last year. There was talk of changing it, but I don't know whether they actually did.
Really? I thought that already was the law in Maryland... A couple years ago the light at Baltimore and Mechanic Streets in Cumberland failed (a drunk driver crashed into the control box for the lights), and while the lights were out the intersection was treated as a four-way stop. I remember seeing a couple articles in the local newspaper noting that the people in Cumberland were confused by it, because four-way stops are extremely rare in western Maryland.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: algorerhythms on April 28, 2014, 11:23:47 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2014, 10:53:45 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 26, 2014, 10:25:37 PM
Are the stop signs actually needed? I thought that a traffic light that's off means the same as a stop sign.

(I don't drive, so I may be wrong about this.)

Not everywhere. Maryland didn't have that law as recently as last year. There was talk of changing it, but I don't know whether they actually did.
Really? I thought that already was the law in Maryland... A couple years ago the light at Baltimore and Mechanic Streets in Cumberland failed (a drunk driver crashed into the control box for the lights), and while the lights were out the intersection was treated as a four-way stop. I remember seeing a couple articles in the local newspaper noting that the people in Cumberland were confused by it, because four-way stops are extremely rare in western Maryland.

Well, yeah.  It's an intersection normally controlled by a traffic light, and there's a lot of police, emergency personal, and DOT trucks trying to fix the light.  Then add on top of that an unsigned 4 way stop condition. Of course it's going to be confusing.

Even permament 4-way stop intersections with a lot of traffic tend to be confusing in the best of times.

algorerhythms

It ended up taking them several weeks to finish fixing the light, so it was like that for a while.

edit: Found an article about it

Roadrunner75


billtm

The city of Lafayette, IN just finished  a traffic study at 6th & Main and 6th & Ferry where they made the traffic lights flash red, essentially turning them into 4-way stops. The study showed that the traffic lights weren't necessary. And now, the lights will be permanently replaced with stop signs. The change will happen over the next two weeks. 

US71

Fayetteville, AR has replaced numerous signals with 4-Way Stops over the years. The latest was near the University of Arkansas, where the last 4-Way signal was removed, so all the historic houses could be replaced by student condos.
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renegade

Main Street in downtown Adrian, Michigan has stop signs at intersections formerly controlled by traffic signals.  The signals were removed several years ago.
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