Unenforceable signs due to jurisdictional boundaries

[hotdogPi]

Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.

Are there any examples of this or similar unenforceable signs?

[Flint1979]

Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.

Are there any examples of this or similar unenforceable signs?

Wouldn't the state line be in the middle of the street making the half of the road you turned right on in the same state since the other state would begin in the middle of the street?

[wanderer2575]

Technically not unenforceable, but I'm thinking of the "Speed Limit 65" sign on northbound I-75 past OH-184 in Toledo, about a half mile before the Michigan state line where the speed limit increases to 70.  Nobody's going 60 or 65 at that point.

[hbelkins]

Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.

Are there any examples of this or similar unenforceable signs?

Sure they can. Law enforcement agencies have inter-jurisdictional agreements for just such instances.

[jakeroot]

Wouldn't the NTOR sign be on the other side of the intersection? And therefore within the other jurisdiction? Making it enforceable?

I don't think this is a thing, for the exact reason mentioned above by HB. The catch is that, while virtually everything is enforceable by any cop, even those outside their jurisdiction, the hoops that have to be jumped through to actually follow through with prosecution rarely make it worth their while. Something seriously wrong has to be occurring for them to bother at all.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?

[MNHighwayMan]

Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.

Sure, but local police can stop you. Are you really going to ignore them?

Furthermore, there's not a single judge out there that will care about this supposed technicality.

[jeffandnicole]

A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?

It would be the county where the stop is made.

That said, most likely the cop was there for training, a court case or other issue. He wants nothing to do with a traffic stop. He just wants to get to where he's going, or wants to get home.

I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often. Sometimes they are sitting in the right lane going the speed limit because of policy. Rush hour commuters are wise to this...and we are passing just like they're any other vehicle. Others are going must faster. Again, no issues worrying about them.

Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.

[Flint1979]

I saw an Iosco County Sheriff on I-75 in Saginaw County the other day. There are two counties in between Iosco and Saginaw. He was traveling north I'm assuming he was going back to Iosco County.

[Richard3]

A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?

It would be the county where the stop is made.

That said, most likely the cop was there for training, a court case or other issue. He wants nothing to do with a traffic stop. He just wants to get to where he's going, or wants to get home.

I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often. Sometimes they are sitting in the right lane going the speed limit because of policy. Rush hour commuters are wise to this...and we are passing just like they're any other vehicle. Others are going must faster. Again, no issues worrying about them.

Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.

My daily driver is a white Charger.  And as so many unmarked - or half-marked - police cruisers are white Chargers here, some other drivers slow down when they see my car.  On a freeway, it's funny, but on a small road when I can't pass the slow one, it turns to be annoying.

[RobbieL2415]

Any time a VMS displays a lower speed limit it's generally not enforceable, unless it's a speed limit sign with a variable display or codified by statute.

[Rothman]

I wonder if that argument has ever been successfully argued.

[RobbieL2415]

I wonder if that argument has ever been successfully argued.

It's the argument I would use.

[Rothman]

I wonder if that argument has ever been successfully argued.

It's the argument I would use.

You presented it as fact, though.  We'll see if your argument works when the time comes.

[jakeroot]

The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:

(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.

I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.

[hbelkins]

A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?

It would be the county where the stop is made.

That said, most likely the cop was there for training, a court case or other issue. He wants nothing to do with a traffic stop. He just wants to get to where he's going, or wants to get home.

I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often. Sometimes they are sitting in the right lane going the speed limit because of policy. Rush hour commuters are wise to this...and we are passing just like they're any other vehicle. Others are going must faster. Again, no issues worrying about them.

Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.

Prisoner transports are also another reason. I see this often, as there is a state youth detention center near my office and we see lots of out-of-county sheriff vehicles.

What ticks me off is when one of these sheriff's deputies or local cops leave their radar units on when they're well out of their jurisdiction. I'm not happy if my V-1 alerts, I slow down to the speed limit, and then I see I'm meeting a cop from the other side of the state who's just passing through.

[SectorZ]

What ticks me off is when one of these sheriff's deputies or local cops leave their radar units on when they're well out of their jurisdiction. I'm not happy if my V-1 alerts, I slow down to the speed limit, and then I see I'm meeting a cop from the other side of the state who's just passing through.

V-1, for those who go for the gold in the speeding Olympics!

I've actually never known anyone to own one, or even see a mention of them beyond ads in Car & Driver.

[SP Cook]

I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often.

Others are going must faster.

Because they understand that it is perfectly safe to do so.  In other words, all traffic enforcement is illegitimate and all traffics enforcers are hypocrites.

Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.

Imagine that.  A person whose "job"  is to pullover people driving safe and fast on roads designed to be driven safe and fast upon, and then extorting from then, at the point of a gun and under threat of jail, 100s of $$ for doing something they themselves do and which almost every one does, inconvenienced by people actually obeying the STUPID, UNFAIR, EVIL, and IMMORAL laws that THEY enforce.

[hbelkins]

I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often.

Others are going must faster.

Because they understand that it is perfectly safe to do so.  In other words, all traffic enforcement is illegitimate and all traffics enforcers are hypocrites.

Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.

Imagine that.  A person whose "job"  is to pullover people driving safe and fast on roads designed to be driven safe and fast upon, and then extorting from then, at the point of a gun and under threat of jail, 100s of $$ for doing something they themselves do and which almost every one does, inconvenienced by people actually obeying the STUPID, UNFAIR, EVIL, and IMMORAL laws that THEY enforce.

It's rare that I see a cop obeying the speed limit. I'm often passed by those above-mentioned out-of-town officers going 85-90 mph without having their emergency equipment on. They know they'll never be pulled over in whatever jurisdiction they're passing through because of what they call "professional courtesy."

When I was working in Frankfort, I would occasionally get behind a Kentucky state trooper between Lexington and Frankfort on I-64 who was driving right at the speed limit. Traffic stacked up behind him when this happened.

[yand]

Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.

Imagine that.  A person whose "job"  is to pullover people driving safe and fast on roads designed to be driven safe and fast upon, and then extorting from then, at the point of a gun and under threat of jail, 100s of $$ for doing something they themselves do and which almost every one does, inconvenienced by people actually obeying the STUPID, UNFAIR, EVIL, and IMMORAL laws that THEY enforce.

You must have some pretty enthusiastic cops if they're pulling guns on people for speeding.

Its actually the culture of normalized deviance and selective enforcement that is stupid, unfair, evil and immoral. The idea that speeders do it "safe and fast" is simply false, its not like drivers aren't breaking a bunch of other justified laws in addition to speeding. The fact that the same speeders will drop to speed limit minus 10 when they see a cop proves that they definitely aren't the highly trained autobahn drivers you imagine them to be.

If a cop is driving the speed limit and "slowing down" traffic, good. If a cop wants to speed but is "inconvenienced" by people driving the speed limit due to their presence, also good.

[Rothman]

Speed limits are not set for safety by the state of the art of research on accident data.  The old mantra that "speed kills" is really obsolete.  We now know that the class of facility and a whole host of other factors come into play.  Add actual design speeds of interstate highways and speed limits as set lack all the more founding.

Yand's advocacy for "nestoring" stems from a need for control for control's sake rather than an actual safety need.

[NWI_Irish96]

A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?

It would be the county where the stop is made.

That said, most likely the cop was there for training, a court case or other issue. He wants nothing to do with a traffic stop. He just wants to get to where he's going, or wants to get home.

I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often. Sometimes they are sitting in the right lane going the speed limit because of policy. Rush hour commuters are wise to this...and we are passing just like they're any other vehicle. Others are going must faster. Again, no issues worrying about them.

Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.

My cousin is a state trooper in Indiana.  They drive their police vehicles for personal use unless they are leaving the state.  He constantly gets slowed down by drivers slowing down for him, because they don't know when he is or isn't on duty (which is kinda the point of having them all drive their police cars while off duty). 

[kphoger]

Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.

What about the cop that sees you from a parking spot on the far side of the state line?  He sees you turn right at the red light, then pulls out behind you and pulls you over within his jurisdiction.

[kphoger]

My contribution would be speed limits in between customs controls along the US-Mexican border.

[SP Cook]

My contribution would be speed limits in between customs controls along the US-Mexican border.

Not that I would advocate doing that, but the land in between the customs stations, is often private property if it is a bridge, but a land crossing would be federal jurisdiction. CBP on the US side. 

Buddy of mine got a federal speeding ticket going to a meeting at the FBI Center in Clarksburg, WV.  The road up to the place is patrolled by the "FBI Police"  which federal cops that do security for DOJ locations.  Had to go to Federal courthouse to pay his random tax.  I have also seen lots of Park Police and such running radar on things like the Blue Ridge Parkway.