Unenforceable signs due to jurisdictional boundaries

[ErmineNotyours]

Am I misunderstanding?  I thought the speed limit sign was in Washington.

My point was that it seemed Oregon jumped the gun and posted their 55 sign in Washington where they have no right to post it.  Could be fixed with REDUCED SPEED AHEAD banner with the sign.

[jeffandnicole]

The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:

(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.

I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.

That is one state out of 50.

Well sure. I guess my point is that, in states where variable limits are either common or even the norm in some areas, it's likely that they are codified to be legal. In states where maybe there's only one stretch, perhaps as a study, that may not necessarily be the case. Washington State has quite a lot of lane-miles of variable limit-controlled freeways, so it makes sense that they would be legally enforceable.

In NJ, which probably had the granddaddy of all variable speed limits on the NJ Tpk, there is absolutely no reference to variable speed limits within the state statutes.

[jakeroot]

The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:

(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.

I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.

That is one state out of 50.

Well sure. I guess my point is that, in states where variable limits are either common or even the norm in some areas, it's likely that they are codified to be legal. In states where maybe there's only one stretch, perhaps as a study, that may not necessarily be the case. Washington State has quite a lot of lane-miles of variable limit-controlled freeways, so it makes sense that they would be legally enforceable.

In NJ, which probably had the granddaddy of all variable speed limits on the NJ Tpk, there is absolutely no reference to variable speed limits within the state statutes.

Doubt they're enforceable then. Probably why the Turnpike has so much speeding?

[jeffandnicole]

The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:

(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.

I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.

That is one state out of 50.

Well sure. I guess my point is that, in states where variable limits are either common or even the norm in some areas, it's likely that they are codified to be legal. In states where maybe there's only one stretch, perhaps as a study, that may not necessarily be the case. Washington State has quite a lot of lane-miles of variable limit-controlled freeways, so it makes sense that they would be legally enforceable.

In NJ, which probably had the granddaddy of all variable speed limits on the NJ Tpk, there is absolutely no reference to variable speed limits within the state statutes.

Doubt they're enforceable then. Probably why the Turnpike has so much speeding?

For as congested as this state can be, it is amazing how fast our highways (and our State Police) permit speeds!  Of course, I've yet to hear anyone escape on a variable speed limit sign technicality.

And for what it's worth, watch those technicalities. The fastest speed limit permitted in the state is 65 mph.  It's coded into state law that there shall be a list of roads which are to be signed for 65 mph.  And if someone were to still want to fight it, saying the speed limit wasn't signed properly, then they can go back to the main state speed statute, which states any unsigned roadway is to be 50 mph!!

So, for the one person that wants to somehow claim the numeral should be black on white rather than white on black, I think they'll be better off taking the 85 in a 65 ticket rather than an 85 in a 50!

[kphoger]

OR has to have posted the 55 limit, but the sign itself is within the WA border

Easy way to find out.  Take a stroll and look at the sticker.

[renegade]

Technically not unenforceable, but I'm thinking of the "Speed Limit 65" sign on northbound I-75 past OH-184 in Toledo, about a half mile before the Michigan state line where the speed limit increases to 70.  Nobody's going 60 or 65 at that point.

Excellent example, however, I was once followed by Washington Township police (the agency of law enforcement in that particular stretch), pulled over and ticketed about a quarter-mile into Michigan.  I was young and oh-so-dumb back in those days, and suggested that maybe the officer was outside of his jurisdiction, and that's when the handcuffs went on. 

[RobbieL2415]

NJ's variable speed limit signs are actual complaint signs with a display element for the digits.  IMO, those are enforceable because they're on official signs.  I have to guess that the statues there say that the speed limit is whatever the official signs say it is.

[hotdogPi]

NJ's variable speed limit signs are actual complaint signs with a display element for the digits.  IMO, those are enforceable because they're on official signs.  I have to guess that the statues there say that the speed limit is whatever the official signs say it is.

I know there have been complaints about statues, but I don't think any of them are in New Jersey.

[jakeroot]

OR has to have posted the 55 limit, but the sign itself is within the WA border

Easy way to find out.  Take a stroll and look at the sticker.

True. I do know that the big green sign (BGS) support structures in either direction are both ODOT-spec, including the one for WA-14 almost directly opposite along the northbound bridge. But, the sign itself is WSDOT-spec going northbound, ODOT-spec southbound. It's possible that all of the signage along the bridge is maintained by ODOT, and the WSDOT-style exit sign for the WA-14 exit is simply an ODOT sign manufactured to WSDOT specs. If this were the case, the 55 limit would likely have been posted by ODOT as well (all else being equal).

Now, with that said, Oregon for many years installed their "SPEED" signs, and this sign clearly uses the word "LIMIT", like many of the newer ODOT speed limit signs. But it's entirely possible that ODOT installed a WSDOT-spec speed limit sign as well, since it was within WA's border, and I don't believe it would be enforceable within WA's border without the word "LIMIT" due to differences in WA/OR law (although if WSP didn't patrol the bridge, who really gives a shit?). Now, if this were actually the case, it would have been plenty easy to install a "SPEED 55" sign right at the OR border just down the freeway a bit.

I am obviously making this really complicated, but I find it rather interesting!

[jakeroot]

And for what it's worth, watch those technicalities. The fastest speed limit permitted in the state is 65 mph.  It's coded into state law that there shall be a list of roads which are to be signed for 65 mph.  And if someone were to still want to fight it, saying the speed limit wasn't signed properly, then they can go back to the main state speed statute, which states any unsigned roadway is to be 50 mph!!

It's interesting that you'd bring that up. I assume that the Turnpike isn't coded as 65 if the road uses variable limits? Otherwise they definitely wouldn't be enforceable (the sign could read 55, but that would conflict with the statute indicating 65). Sure, the maximum limit would always be 65 under NJ law, but if the Turnpike is legally 65, the variable limits would clearly conflict with the statute.

[kphoger]

I know there have been complaints about statues

I didn't realize that.

[1995hoo]

Technically not unenforceable, but I'm thinking of the "Speed Limit 65" sign on northbound I-75 past OH-184 in Toledo, about a half mile before the Michigan state line where the speed limit increases to 70.  Nobody's going 60 or 65 at that point.

Excellent example, however, I was once followed by Washington Township police (the agency of law enforcement in that particular stretch), pulled over and ticketed about a quarter-mile into Michigan.  I was young and oh-so-dumb back in those days, and suggested that maybe the officer was outside of his jurisdiction, and that's when the handcuffs went on. 

I recall a Dukes of Hazzard episode where the Osage County sheriff arrested Rosco for "impersonating an officer of the law" when he pursued the Dukes across the county line. I believe Boss Hogg wound up in jail as well, though I don't remember what for.