Speed limits (was NJ Turnpike)

[vdeane]

Reminds me of articles in Car and Driver that I read around 1970 when I first saw that, they wanted to "set all the speed limits to the 85th percentile."

Even with high school math background I could see the gimmick at play here, they wanted to try to normalize group behavior that is well over to one side of the normal distribution ("bell curve").

80 mph speed limits in New Jersey?  Suuuuurrree.

In Europe the freeways all have speed limits around 80, and they're not straight and desolate like the states that have 80 mph limits.  The reason is because over their, the speed limit is intended to be what it's supposed to be - the maximum speed you can drive on the road.  In the US, we remain married to the "set the speed limit way low and enforce something much higher" paradigm because too many people believe the "everyone always goes X mph faster" idea that's been debunked again and again.

[sprjus4]

In the US, we remain married to the "set the speed limit way low and enforce something much higher" paradigm because too many people believe the "everyone always goes X mph faster" idea that's been debunked again and again.

Agreed. You go out west where they have speed limits of 80 or 85 mph, and most people stay within 5 mph because the speed is reasonable. I've driven the TX-130 toll road in the past where the speed limit is 85 mph, very few cars actually exceeded 90 mph. I was plenty comfortable cruising at 85 mph and had no desire to speed. I'm surprised Texas hasn't expanded it's 80 mph limits to other highways on the eastern part of the state, where they would be reasonable. IIRC, Oklahoma plans to bump most of their Turnpikes up from 75 mph to 80 mph. Meanwhile, compare this to roads like the New Jersey Turnpike that are only posted at 65 mph, the actual driving speeds are only slightly below those of TX-130, less than 5 mph.

But I suppose if we set the limit at 80 mph, people would drive 90 - 95 mph 

[Alps]

80 mph speed limits in New Jersey?  Suuuuurrree.

Seems fairly reasonable on long stretches on the New Jersey Turnpike. The roadway can easily handle that speed in many areas, and the vast majority of drivers drive in excess of 75 mph already. The speed limit should reflect road design and 85th percentile speeds. 65 mph does not.

No it doesn't.   The focus on the "85th percentile" was cooked up about 40 years ago by motorist advocacy groups many of whom wanted speed limits to ultimately be abolished.

You won't see 80 mph east of the Mississippi, and only 2 states have ever had anything over 70, that being 75.

Are you calling engineering SOP "advocacy"? Interesting take.

[Beltway]

80 mph speed limits in New Jersey?  Suuuuurrree.

In Europe the freeways all have speed limits around 80,

Baloney.  Urban freeways?  Suburban freeways?

[Beltway]

You won't see 80 mph east of the Mississippi, and only 2 states have ever had anything over 70, that being 75.

West Virginia is permitted to post up to 75 mph now, actually attempted 80 mph previously, and North Carolina nearly passed legislation authorizing 75 mph on rural freeways back in 2013, though never got all the way through. This is not to say it could not become a thing in the future.

That is the "coulda woulda shoulda" line of argumentation.

The fact is, the only highway east of the Mississippi with a 75 mph speed limit is a very low volume section of I-95 in northern Maine.

Tennessee had a 75 mph maximum pre-1973-NMSL.

70 mph or 75 mph would be reasonable on the Turnpike, if not 80. 65 mph is too low.

I may be convinced of 70 mph south of New Brunswick.

[Beltway]

The focus on the "85th percentile" was cooked up about 40 years ago by motorist advocacy groups many of whom wanted speed limits to ultimately be abolished.

You won't see 80 mph east of the Mississippi, and only 2 states have ever had anything over 70, that being 75.

Are you calling engineering SOP "advocacy"? Interesting take.

Which statement does that refer to? 

Percentile speeds is one of about 8 factors that traffic engineers utilize in concert for setting speed limits.

Of course, motorist advocacy groups have continually pressured for emphasis on, you know which!

[jeffandnicole]

The focus on the "85th percentile" was cooked up about 40 years ago by motorist advocacy groups many of whom wanted speed limits to ultimately be abolished.

You won't see 80 mph east of the Mississippi, and only 2 states have ever had anything over 70, that being 75.

Are you calling engineering SOP "advocacy"? Interesting take.

Which statement does that refer to? 

Percentile speeds is one of about 8 factors that traffic engineers utilize in concert for setting speed limits.

Of course, motorist advocacy groups have continually pressured for emphasis on, you know which!

Whereas motorist adversity groups utilize "No need for Speed", "Stay Alive Drive 55", "Think of the Children", "Take a train and see scenic Trenton as you depart of the station", etc.   

I don't necessarily agree that any road in NJ should be 80 mph.  Two things play a part in that - Police tolerance and traffic volumes.  If the max in several extremely rural states is 80 mph, it seems crazy that it would be the same in heavily traveled NJ would be the same.  From a safety stand point, NJ and northeast drivers in general tend to travel very closely - going 70-75 mph with a half-second between vehicles is pretty much insane from a safety standpoint, yet it almost considered normal for the area.   And that's where police tolerance comes into play - we've gotten used to very fast speeds well over the limit in the state.  While people claim the police just find any reason for revenue, the fact that many highways have up to or over 90% non-compliance of the speed limit shows that the cops are clearly not interested in the easy ticket.  While people tend to have their opinions on what the fastest speed is in any particular area, the tolerance is obviously much higher than most other states. And I suspect for most normal stops, the tendency to reduce the ticket to a minor violation is quite high as well.

Towards Beltway's point of the speed limit setting factors, unfortunately many of them are ignored in favor of the "Politician View".  When a roadway is set too low locally, and that limit is routinely ignored, it sets off a waterfall effect of more limits being both set to low, and ignored.  So when a motorist gets to the highway, where driveways, kids and other factors aren't involved, it allows for an even more exaggerated view of what the top speed should be.   If 25 was posted solely for residential or business zones where the need warranted it, people would obey it.  When 25 mph is posted on a wide 4 lane road because John Doe (D) (R) (I) demanded it, then it loses a lot of meaning.

[sprjus4]

The fact is, the only highway east of the Mississippi with a 75 mph speed limit is a very low volume section of I-95 in northern Maine.

Along with a number of freeways in northern Michigan.

Baloney.  Urban freeways?  Suburban freeways?

Current general speed limits in EU Member States
The general speed limit for motorways in EU Member States is mostly 120 (75 mph) or 130 km/h (80 mph). Germany does not have a general speed limit for motorways, but a recommended speed of 130 km/h (80 mph). The general speed limit for rural roads in EU Member States is mostly 80 (50 mph) or 90 km/h (55 mph) and for urban roads 50 km/h (30 mph).

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/speed/speed_limits/current_speed_limit_policies_en

Map of maximum speed limits in European countries. The vast majority allow up to 130 km/h (80 mph), and Bulgaria and Poland have stretches posted at 140 km/h (85 mph). Germany, as we all know, has a vast network with no speed limit, with only a recommended 130 km/h (80 mph).
https://autotraveler.ru/en/spravka/max-speed-limits-in-europe.html#.Xn5UIohKiUk

[Beltway]

European speed limits have been exhaustively discussed in online forums over the last 20 years. 

As you can see just from this one link, there are many qualifiers with much lower speed limits.

How do they define "urban?"  Does that include up to 30 or more miles from the city?

What about the engineering of freeways in mountainous areas, of which there are plenty, and not just in the Alpine areas?  I would wager that most are not engineered for much more than 60 mph (100 kph).

Current general speed limits in EU Member States
The general speed limit for motorways in EU Member States is mostly 120 (75 mph) or 130 km/h (80 mph). Germany does not have a general speed limit for motorways, but a recommended speed of 130 km/h (80 mph). The general speed limit for rural roads in EU Member States is mostly 80 (50 mph) or 90 km/h (55 mph) and for urban roads 50 km/h (30 mph).

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/speed/speed_limits/current_speed_limit_policies_en

In most countries speed limits that differ from these general limits are applied. Widespread and well known are the 30 km/h zones in residential areas. In Germany, where there is no general speed limit for motorways, many sections of the motorway have a local posted speed limit which may range from 80 km/h to 130 km/h, related to both safety and environmental considerations. Also in the Netherlands, an increasing number of motorway sections have a permanent lower speed limit (notably 100 or 80 km/h) aiming to reduce air pollution and noise where there are adjacent residential areas.
EU countries apply a lower speed limit for heavy good vehicles (HGVs) and buses/coaches. The majority of countries only apply an overall maximum speed limit for HGVs (generally 80 km/h) and buses (varying between 80 and 100 km/h). By EU-Directive 92/24/EEC and its recent adaptation (2004/11/EEC), speed limiters are compulsory for HGVs of 3.500 kg and more and for buses of 10.000 kg or more. Some countries apply lower HGV and bus speed limits for different road types (e.g. Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom).

Different speed limits in adverse weather and traffic conditions
Weather
In the EU, only France applies lower general speed limits for bad weather conditions. In case of rain or snow, the speed limit for motorways changes from 130 km/h to 110 km/h and at rural roads from 90 km/h to 80 km/h. In case of fog (visibility less than 50 meters) the speed limit on all types of roads is 50 km/h. In other countries (e.g. Germany, United Kingdom) matrix signs on motorways provide advisory or compulsory reduced speed limits when weather conditions are bad.
Both Finland and Sweden apply different general speed limits in wintertime. In Finland, the speed limit at motorways changes from 120 km/h to 100 km/h and, on main rural roads, from 100 km/h to 80 km/h; these have been evaluated by Peltola [49]. Similarly in Sweden the speed limits change respectively from 110 km/h to 90 km/h and from 90 km/h to 70 km/h.
In France, it is common to reduce the general speed limit by 20 or 30 km/h on a temporary basis, generally in case of high temperatures, with the aim to reduce air pollution and smog.

[sprjus4]

How do they define "urban?"  Does that include up to 30 or more miles from the city?

What about urban freeways in the United States posted at 65 - 75 mph?

[Beltway]

How do they define "urban?"  Does that include up to 30 or more miles from the city?

What about urban freeways in the United States posted at 65 - 75 mph?

Many are not and speed limits don't go up until well out of the city -- in any event, the subject was Europe -- how do they define it country by country?

[sprjus4]

Many are not and speed limits don't go up until well out of the city

Might want to look outside the Northeast... many are.

[Beltway]

Many are not and speed limits don't go up until well out of the city

Might want to look outside the Northeast... many are.

Pittsburgh ... Cleveland ... Columbus ... Dayton ... Cincinnati ... Indianapolis ... Chicago ...

[sprjus4]

Many are not and speed limits don't go up until well out of the city

Might want to look outside the Northeast... many are.

Pittsburgh ... Cleveland ... Columbus ... Dayton ... Cincinnati ... Indianapolis ... Chicago ...

Metro areas with speed limits of 65 mph or greater, many of which have 70 mph, some 75 mph -
Detroit ... Flint ... Lansing ... Grand Rapids ... Raleigh ... Charlotte ... Greensboro ... Orlando ... Jacksonville ... Houston ... Dallas ... Fort Worth ... San Antonio ... Salt Lake City ... Los Angeles ... San Diego ... San Francisco ... Las Vegas ... Phoenix ... certainly missing plenty more.

Austin has 80 mph posted along the TX-130 toll road which is becoming a suburban freeway as growth is expanding eastward. It's currently being widened to 6-lanes through a 20 mile section, and will retain the 80 mph speed limit once completed.

[Beltway]

Many are not and speed limits don't go up until well out of the city

Might want to look outside the Northeast... many are.

Pittsburgh … Cleveland … Columbus … Dayton … Cincinnati … Indianapolis … Chicago ...

Metro areas with speed limits of 65 mph or greater, many of which have 70 mph, some 75 mph -
Detroit ... Flint ... Lansing ... Grand Rapids ... Raleigh ... Charlotte ... Greensboro ... Orlando ... Jacksonville ... Houston ... Dallas ... Fort Worth ... San Antonio ... Salt Lake City ... Los Angeles ... San Diego ... San Francisco ... Las Vegas ... Phoenix ... certainly missing plenty more.

How many *IN* those cities?

Austin has 80 mph posted along the TX-130 toll road which is becoming a suburban freeway as growth is expanding eastward. It's currently being widened to 6-lanes through a 20 mile section, and will retain the 80 mph speed limit once completed.

I would call that rural, not suburban.

[sprjus4]

How many *IN* those cities?

Define -in-.

Your initial comment said speed limits don't bump up until well outside the metro. This examples show otherwise.

I would call that rural, not suburban.

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4959291,-97.5752071,11545m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

It's developing rapidly. In 10 years, it won't be rural. Parts of it, such as seen above, have already reached the other side of the highway and are certainly not rural. The highway is littered with local traffic between SH-71 and SH-45 North, hence why it's being expanded to 6 lanes.

[Beltway]

How many *IN* those cities?

Define -in-.

Within city limits -- you listed some large area cities.

Your initial comment said speed limits don't bump up until well outside the metro. This examples show otherwise.

Some do and some don't, I didn't believe otherwise.  What about the Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Colorado and Minnesota?

Back to the original point -- how do the those European data define "urban?"

[sprjus4]

Within city limits -- you listed some large area cities.

Within city limits -
Detroit ... 70 mph
Flint ... 70 mph
Lansing ... 70 mph
Grand Rapids ... 70 mph
Raleigh ... 70 mph
Charlotte ... 70 mph
Greensboro ... 65 mph
Orlando ... 70 mph
Jacksonville ... 70 mph
Houston ... 65 mph
Dallas ... 70 mph
Fort Worth ... 70 mph, Toll Lanes with 75 mph
San Antonio ... 70 mph
Salt Lake City ... 70 mph
Los Angeles ... 65 mph
San Diego ... 65 mph
San Francisco ... 65 mph
Las Vegas ... 65 mph
Phoenix ... 65 mph
Austin ... 75 mph (80 mph if you count the sliver of TX-130 that goes through the edge)

Near Downtown and core areas, the speed limits decrease to 55 mph - 65 mph, but bump up a few miles or immediately after leaving, but still well within the suburban / metro area for 10-20+ miles.

What about the Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Colorado and Minnesota?

Georgia - Macon 70 mph; Augusta 65 mph; Savannah 70 mph
Florida - Orlando 70 mph; Jacksonville 70 mph; Pensacola 65 mph;
Alabama - Birmingham 70 mph; Mobile 65 mph; Huntsville 70 mph
Louisiana - Baton Rouge 65 mph
Colorado - Denver 65 mph

Even in Virginia, Hampton and Newport News have 65 mph along I-64 thanks to the increase back in 2018. It's 50 miles between Downtown Norfolk and the first 70 mph zone, right now almost 60 miles due to construction. To reach a 70 mph zone, it's closer to go into North Carolina to the US-17 Elizabeth City bypass which is only 40 miles. Reasonably, 70 mph should be able to start past Jefferson Ave, though it does not until north of Williamsburg.

[Beltway]

Oh come on, you've traveled thru all those cities around the country in the first place, and then remembered the exact speeds in each?   

BTW, in my last posts I did specify within city limits, and something that passes just outside of a small city (Macon, etc.) isn't really what I was referring to.  Major metros.

Another BTW, Richmond has 65 starting just outside of the city, and 65 and 70 on the outer loop, but Richmond and Petersburg themselves are effectively no more than 60.

[sprjus4]

Oh come on, you've traveled thru all those cities around the country in the first place, and then remembered the exact speeds in each?   

You ever heard of Google Maps and Street View?

For the record though, I've been to Raleigh, Charlotte, Greensboro, Orlando, Houston, Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, Los Angeles, San Diego, Austin, Augusta, Pensacola, Birmingham, Mobile, and Baton Rouge and do vividly remember the speed limits in at least 12 of those cities. I did double check on all those though before posting however.

BTW, in my last posts I did specify within city limits, and something that passes just outside of a small city (Macon, etc.) isn't really what I was referring to.  Major metros.

Those few examples asides, there's still many examples of major metros with 65 - 75 mph speed limits within city limits.

Another BTW, Richmond has 65 starting just outside of the city, and 65 and 70 on the outer loop, but Richmond and Petersburg themselves are effectively no more than 60.

I do know this, and I will say Richmond's (metro, not city limits) speed limits are more on the reasonable side IMO, especially on the outer beltway. I was surprised the first time traveling north on I-95 and seeing it bump to 65 mph once north of I-64, but yet it's 60 mph to the south for almost 30 miles until just outside Petersburg where it bumps back to 65 mph then to 70 mph south of I-295, despite a significant stretch where it could bump to 65 mph in between. Once you're outside the core of the city (Downtown Richmond), the speed limit should be able to increase above 60 mph. I'm not saying necessarily jump to 70 mph right away, but at least 65 mph if the road conditions allow. In a lot of areas, the speed limit remains 55 mph or 60 mph for 10-20+ miles before bumping up, even if the road design can handle 65 mph once outside the core and most people travel 70+ mph anyways. Hampton Roads is one example of this on pretty much any highway in the region. Not saying all should be 65 mph, but a significant amount could reasonably be. Again, not to mention, a lot of people already do 70+ mph anyways.

Remembering from my experience driving around Southern California (San Diego and Los Angeles metros), every freeway is posted at 65 mph except near the Downtowns where it's 55 mph. In Texas, in Dallas and Fort Worth the speed limit was posted at 65 mph, and 70 mph in many areas outside the Downtowns. On the toll lanes there, the speed limit was 75 mph. In San Antonio, it's 65 mph everywhere except near the Downtowns, and 70 mph on Loop 1604. Just to name a few examples off the top of my head.

[Beltway]

Oh come on, you've traveled thru all those cities around the country in the first place, and then remembered the exact speeds in each?   

You ever heard of Google Maps and Street View?

Of course.  But even though retired I wouldn't "travel" to all those places just to look at enough speed limit signs and get some idea of prevailing section speeds.  That would take a lot of time.

Like has been said, the Northeast corridor states and NYC-Chicago states don't have those kinds of speeds.

I do know this, and I will say Richmond's (metro, not city limits) speed limits are more on the reasonable side IMO, especially on the outer beltway. I was surprised the first time traveling north on I-95 and seeing it bump to 65 mph once north of I-64, but yet it's 60 mph to the south for almost 30 miles until just outside Petersburg where it bumps back to 65 mph then to 70 mph south of I-295, despite a significant stretch where it could bump to 65 mph in between.

It drops to 55 just north of VA-144 Temple Avenue, and that continues to just south of Petersburg.

I would agree that it could be 65 between Exit 73 Maury Street and Exit 53 Southpark Blvd.   Six lanes, good geometry, full right and left shoulders, ample accel-decell lanes.

[michravera]

Many are not and speed limits don't go up until well out of the city

Might want to look outside the Northeast... many are.

Pittsburgh ... Cleveland ... Columbus ... Dayton ... Cincinnati ... Indianapolis ... Chicago ...

Metro areas with speed limits of 65 mph or greater, many of which have 70 mph, some 75 mph -
Detroit ... Flint ... Lansing ... Grand Rapids ... Raleigh ... Charlotte ... Greensboro ... Orlando ... Jacksonville ... Houston ... Dallas ... Fort Worth ... San Antonio ... Salt Lake City ... Los Angeles ... San Diego ... San Francisco ... Las Vegas ... Phoenix ... certainly missing plenty more.

Austin has 80 mph posted along the TX-130 toll road which is becoming a suburban freeway as growth is expanding eastward. It's currently being widened to 6-lanes through a 20 mile section, and will retain the 80 mph speed limit once completed.

Austin and San Antonio have 70 MPH posted through DOWNTOWN.
They may have reduced it, but Wyoming, at least for a while, had 75 MPH posted right through downtown Cheyenne.
Fresno, Bakersfield, and Stockton all have 70MPH posted for at least one exit inside their city limits.

[sprjus4]

Austin and San Antonio have 70 MPH posted through DOWNTOWN.

I-35 through Downtown Austin is only 60 mph, though increases to 70 mph once outside Downtown.

I-35 and I-10 around Downtown San Antonio are also only 60 mph, though I-37 maintains 65 mph through there.

[sprjus4]

Of course.  But even though retired I wouldn't "travel" to all those places just to look at enough speed limit signs and get some idea of prevailing section speeds.  That would take a lot of time.

Only took about 20-30 minutes, and having been to a majority of the cities before, it made it quicker since knowing what stretches are faster, etc.

Like has been said, the Northeast corridor states and NYC-Chicago states don't have those kinds of speeds.

Except Michigan. But outside the Northeast, they are quite common and appropriate.

[Verlanka]

Florida - Orlando 70 mph; Jacksonville 70 mph; Pensacola 65 mph;

Tampa is also 70 mph (for freeways, non-freeways are caped at 55 mph).