New design USA flag coming?

[mgk920]

Earlier today (Sunday, 2017-06-11), voters in Puerto Rico opted to seek full statehood in the USA.  Aside from the 'add two Senators/add or reapportion five or six USHouse seats' thing, the concurrent adding and shifting of EVs and the signing of I-PR1 through I-PR4, should Congress agree, it would also add a star to the USA's national flag with a new pattern.

Any ideas of what this pattern would look like?   

Yes, there are oodles of issues to resolve before this can be finalized, but this is the first time in my lifetime that this will have happened.  For several years now, the USA has been in the longest period in its history without the addition of a new state.

Mike

[formulanone]

Any ideas of what this pattern would look like?   

Wikipedia has shown this proposed US Flag for a while:



I would imagine the union, stripe pattern, and proportions of the flag would be kept the same.

The shift in the star pattern would take a little getting used to, but prior generations have dealt with that before...9, 8, 9, 8, 9, 8 works nicely.

[kkt]

Well, you could do six rows:

9 stars
8 stars
9 stars
8 stars
9 stars
8 stars

that would make a decent rectangle, though the bottom row being shorter than the top might look odd.

I don't think Congress will approve the additional state, though.  Use of Spanish for laws and legal documents is an issue, and so is the Republican congress approving two senators and several representatives who would probably be Democratic.

[kkt]

Any ideas of what this pattern would look like?   

Wikipedia has shown this proposed US Flag for a while:



I would imagine the union, stripe pattern, and proportions of the flag would be kept the same.

The shift in the star pattern would take a little getting used to, but prior generations have dealt with that before...9, 8, 9, 8, 9, 8 works nicely.

Whoops.  Simultaneous posts.  Nice picture

[formulanone]

I don't think Congress will approve the additional state, though.  Use of Spanish for laws and legal documents is an issue, and so is the Republican congress approving two senators and several representatives who would probably be Democratic.

If Florida can provide ballots and laws in three languages, Puerto Rico ought to be able to handle two.

[english si]

I-PR4

Where's that?

Anyway, it clearly would have to be a circle!

[mgk920]

I don't think Congress will approve the additional state, though.  Use of Spanish for laws and legal documents is an issue, and so is the Republican congress approving two senators and several representatives who would probably be Democratic.

If Florida can provide ballots and laws in three languages, Puerto Rico ought to be able to handle two.

Also, hasn't New Mexico been heavily, if not primarily, native Spanish speaking ever since its territory became part of the USA in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo?

Mike

[dvferyance]

Well, you could do six rows:

9 stars
8 stars
9 stars
8 stars
9 stars
8 stars

that would make a decent rectangle, though the bottom row being shorter than the top might look odd.

I don't think Congress will approve the additional state, though.  Use of Spanish for laws and legal documents is an issue, and so is the Republican congress approving two senators and several representatives who would probably be Democratic.

In the first place Puerto Rico is bilingual. Second of all Florida Senator Marco Rubio said we should respect the will of the people of Puerto Rico. So there are Republicans that support this including myself.

[kkt]

I don't think Congress will approve the additional state, though.  Use of Spanish for laws and legal documents is an issue, and so is the Republican congress approving two senators and several representatives who would probably be Democratic.

Florida statutes are in languages besides English? 


If Florida can provide ballots and laws in three languages, Puerto Rico ought to be able to handle two.

[oscar]

Aside from the 'add two Senators/add or reapportion five or six USHouse seats' thing, the concurrent adding and shifting of EVs and the signing of I-PR1 through I-PR4, should Congress agree, it would also add a star to the USA's national flag with a new pattern.

Puerto Rico has only three (unsigned) Interstates, though PR 30 between San Juan and Huimacao (a freeway I haven't driven) and perhaps others would be candidates for additional Interstates.

I don't think Congress will approve the additional state, though.  Use of Spanish for laws and legal documents is an issue, and so is the Republican congress approving two senators and several representatives who would probably be Democratic.

In the first place Puerto Rico is bilingual. Second of all Florida Senator Marco Rubio said we should respect the will of the people of Puerto Rico. So there are Republicans that support this including myself.

I think the use of Spanish for laws and legal documents is less of a problem than:

(1) Significant opposition to statehood (not shown in Sunday's referendum, since statehood opponents boycotted the vote), including a substantial percentage favoring independence from the U.S. Not a good idea, IMO, to acquire an independence movement along with a new state. Hawaii has a rather pesky independence movement (Alaska has one too, though kind of a joke), but Puerto Rico's could be a bigger problem. And Canadians can tell you a lot about independence movements, though its movement seems to be tamped down at the moment.

(2) Puerto Rico's government is a basket case, currently in quasi-bankruptcy. Some of the rescue components may depend on PR not being a state, since states can't declare bankruptcy under the U.S. Code (a point that comes up in connection with Illinois). Statehood supporters may do so hoping for better rescue terms than now in place, but that might not be a realistic expectation.

Personally, I'm sympathetic to independence, an option that would be effectively ruled out (per our Civil War) by statehood.

[triplemultiplex]

Cool.  Though I can't help but see the circle of stars as symbolic for America's influence on the world.  Gives it kind of an imperial vibe.

Or it's reminiscent of the Earthican Flag from Futurama:

[NE2]

[7/8]

There's some funny ones in this article: http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News/10-wildest-proposed-51-star-american-flags-puerto/story?id=19404611

The US should choose this one...


Though maybe that looks to similar too Liberia. How about this instead?

[kkt]

Please, I just ate.

[SP Cook]

- The circular pattern is the one that PR statehood advocates use.  The actual designs would be made by the Army and the final decision is made by Presidential proclamation. 

- PR has a median household income of $19,350.  The poorest current state (Mississippi) is over $39K.  The entire country is over $55K.  Because it is not a state, PR's "commonwealth" government and Congress can pick and choose which laws best fit economic conditions there.  If it becomes a state, every US law will automatically apply.

- In the last Census, 72% of people in PR self-reported themselves in the catagories below "very well" relative to English, contrasted to 8% of the USA as a whole.   Further, unlike a non-English speaker on the mainland USA, whose children and grand-children will eventually speak English very well (studies show that from Day One to now, by the 3rd generation, English becomes "very well" in 99% of cases, and the ancestor's mother tounge is lost in about 80% of cases), this would be a multi-generational thing.  Although the current governor advocates changing the school system to English.  This would make the USA something like Canada.  I do not think most American would be in favor of that.  (BTW, while Spanish has a special status in New Mexico, the less than very well %age there is only 12%, which is better than several other states.)

- Currently, PR is considered a "country" for certain business types.  For example, in TV broadcasting.  All of these deals would have to be sorted out. 

- Politics.  If a state, PR would get 5 house members, and 7 electors.  Assuming they stick to 435 (and thus 538) the states that would lose seats are California (democrat lock), Washington (democrat lock), Texas (Republican lock), Minnesota (leans democrat) and Florida.  Of course that uses the 2010 Census, by the time this is all sorted out the 2020 numbers would be out.  AFAIK this would be the first state added that did not have just one House seat, due to the unusual circumstances.

- The only time I was in PR, IIRC they use metric for gas pumps and for distances, but the American system for speed limits, and the cars are denominated in MPH.  So San Juan 55 means 55 km, but Speed Limit 55 means 55 MPH.  Confusing.

[briantroutman]

As long as the federal government is dominated by Republicans, I don't expect PR (or DC, for that matter) statehood efforts to yield any results.

But assuming that either or both were admitted as states, would the 50-star version of Old Glory become the new "Confederate flag"  –flown by self-proclaimed rebels who refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the added state(s)?

[SP Cook]

I cannot imagine who would "rebel" against PR being a state, other than the small group in PR who advocate independence, who would not be supporting of any American flag. 

I'm not quite old enough to remember when Alaska and Hawaii became states, but I would assume that most people, and certainly most government offices, rushed right out and bought new flags.  Probably would cause a boom in the flag business.  A good solid outdoor flag that is actually sewn (rather than screen printed) is upwards of $20.  Could be a jobs program.  (BTW, Amazon has several 51 star flags for sale already).

DC cannot be made a state w/o a Constitutional amendment (Article I, Section 8) nor can it be given  seats in the Senate w/o a Constitutional amendment to which all 50 (or 51) other states agree to (Article V).  These things will never happen, no matter what party is in power.

[dvferyance]

As long as the federal government is dominated by Republicans, I don't expect PR (or DC, for that matter) statehood efforts to yield any results.

But assuming that either or both were admitted as states, would the 50-star version of Old Glory become the new "Confederate flag"  –flown by self-proclaimed rebels who refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the added state(s)?

DC should never be a state period. There is a reason why it isn't. Our founding fathers set up it that the national capitol should not be in a particular state due to a state influencing the federal government. Mexico, Australia and a few other countries have the same set up where the national capitol is not in a state. I wonder though with Puerto Rico the next talk about a another new state would likely be Guam. That is the next biggest territory.

[froggie]

Don't want DC to become a state?

Give them voting representation in Congress.  That'd take the main wind out of the sail that's driving their statehood push.

DC cannot be made a state w/o a Constitutional amendment (Article I, Section 8)

Technically, not true.  A smaller Federal district (covering the core, where most of the Federal buildings are, and the museum areas) could certainly be created, leaving the rest of what is now DC to become a state.  Though such a designation would require approval by Congress...highly unlikely as others have noted.

nor can it be given  seats in the Senate w/o a Constitutional amendment to which all 50 (or 51)  other states agree to (Article V). 

Presuming you're referring to giving DC Senate seats without them actually becoming a state and that you're referencing the "equal Suffrage" clause at the end of Article 5.

[clong]

Don't want DC to become a state?

Give them voting representation in Congress.  That'd take the main wind out of the sail that's driving their statehood push.

DC cannot be made a state w/o a Constitutional amendment (Article I, Section 8)

Technically, not true.  A smaller Federal district (covering the core, where most of the Federal buildings are, and the museum areas) could certainly be created, leaving the rest of what is now DC to become a state.  Though such a designation would require approval by Congress...highly unlikely as others have noted.

I would propose the rest of what is now DC be known as the State of Maryland.

[LM117]

Poo.

[english si]

And Canadians can tell you a lot about independence movements, though its movement seems to be tamped down at the moment.

As do Brits. Though we should have silenced it for a few years on Thursday. However there's still (three years later) the denial that they've lost for now - Wee Eck was still spouting the line that Scotland wants another referendum on independence and would vote for it in order to get away from bad Tory policy about 20 minutes before his seat's result was announced (they were counting the votes behind him and he should have had a good idea that his job was at risk), and he'd lost to a Tory with a 20% swing against him!

flown by self-proclaimed rebels who refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the added state(s)?

[Stephane Dumas]

I spotted this vlog about Puerto Rico on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5up5sYJMRA

[oscar]

DC cannot be made a state w/o a Constitutional amendment (Article I, Section 8) nor can it be given  seats in the Senate w/o a Constitutional amendment to which all 50 (or 51) other states agree to (Article V).  These things will never happen, no matter what party is in power.

As froggie notes, D.C. can be shrunken down to a small core, with the rest of it given to a new or existing state. Of course, you'd want to repeal the constitutional amendment giving D.C. Electoral College votes, lest a small number of people (like homeless grate-sleepers I saw all the time when I worked near Capitol Hill) control those three EVs. I suspect that when the Constitution provided for a district with no voting rights at all, the expectation was that it would have no permanent residents and people could just vote in their home states. That's not exactly what happened, and it's way too late to unwind that.

I'm not convinced a shrunken D.C. would be required by the Constitution, which means it could all go a new state, or Maryland if it will agree (ha ha ha).  In the first years after the Constitution gave Congress the option of setting up a Federal district not within a state, the seat of government was in Philadelphia and New York before moving again to its current digs. On its face, the creation of a new district was optional, and Congress remains free to opt out.

There are multiple reasons why D.C. statehood is a terrible idea (some of which go double for Puerto Rico) and/or won't happen in any case, but I'm unsure the constitutional issues w/r/t D.C. are showstoppers.

[GaryV]

I'm not quite old enough to remember when Alaska and Hawaii became states, but I would assume that most people, and certainly most government offices, rushed right out and bought new flags. 

Nope, not hardly.  There were plenty of 48-star flags around well into the 60's.  (Anyone remember, were there any quantities of 49-star flags between the AK and HI admission dates?)

Federal installations probably got them sooner.  But local governments, schools, and private businesses would be slower to adopt.  Why spend money to replace an otherwise perfectly useful flag?

And in any event, an expected glut of new flag sales would be partially offset by a decrease in sales of old flags prior to the official statehood date.