California 245 and other more obscure California State Highways

[Quillz]

203 I would be okay if it ended at Minerat Summit...the literal end of the road.

Exactly what I'm getting at. I believe all routes should end at some kind of physical point. 180 does this, ending essentially at the end of the road within Kings Canyon.

[Quillz]

BTW, you just drove Sherman Pass yesterday? I'm doing that tomorrow... Maybe we're close by.

[Max Rockatansky]

True....still figure there would be some oddities like CA 270 ending either at Bodie or where the road becomes dirt.

Today actually and I'm up in Bakersfield, not too far of a drive up there for me up to Sherman.  The road is great shape, the only wonky part is heading down into the Kern Plateau from Sherman Pass since there are a crap load of rocks in the eastbound lane for about 5 miles.

[coatimundi]

So....with that logic why not sign CA 41, CA 120, CA 89, and CA 198 through their respective National Parks?  Not that I really care who maintains the route...it's just interesting to see that CA 180 and 190 are signed despite the routes technically not existing.

There are no reassurance markers on the routes in Yosemite, but there are NPS signs with the route number and shield in various places. The big junction at the west end of the Valley, whatever that's called, has signs with shields for 41, 120 and 140. It's just to direct people out of the park properly. If you put up a sign that said "Fresno", "Manteca" and "Merced" respectfully, then it would just be too confusing.
These are NPS roads, so they can do what they want. For whatever reason, they sometimes choose to not mark them if it's not necessary. 89 through Lassen is a good example: no signs.
With 180 & 198 (I assume that's what you meant by 190), I was poking around on StreetView, and I see one 180 shield inside the park boundaries, just after the 198 junction. Are there others? Instead of a shield for the 198 turnoff at 180, you get what is obviously an NPS sign. That style sign is also at the end of 198 right there.

I don't know how much news it made, but Yosemite acquired an additional 400 acres just this past week on the north side of SR 120 just west of the park, in an area known as the Ackerson Meadow. I tried to find a map of the newly acquired area, but all the media seem to be really keen on using the same stock photo of the meadow that the NPS posted on their press release page and providing relatively little additional information from that release. I add this because it's entirely possible that this extension will swallow up part of SR 120, causing a further relinquishment.

[Max Rockatansky]

So....with that logic why not sign CA 41, CA 120, CA 89, and CA 198 through their respective National Parks?  Not that I really care who maintains the route...it's just interesting to see that CA 180 and 190 are signed despite the routes technically not existing.

There are no reassurance markers on the routes in Yosemite, but there are NPS signs with the route number and shield in various places. The big junction at the west end of the Valley, whatever that's called, has signs with shields for 41, 120 and 140. It's just to direct people out of the park properly. If you put up a sign that said "Fresno", "Manteca" and "Merced" respectfully, then it would just be too confusing.
These are NPS roads, so they can do what they want. For whatever reason, they sometimes choose to not mark them if it's not necessary. 89 through Lassen is a good example: no signs.
With 180 & 198 (I assume that's what you meant by 190), I was poking around on StreetView, and I see one 180 shield inside the park boundaries, just after the 198 junction. Are there others? Instead of a shield for the 198 turnoff at 180, you get what is obviously an NPS sign. That style sign is also at the end of 198 right there.

I don't know how much news it made, but Yosemite acquired an additional 400 acres just this past week on the north side of SR 120 just west of the park, in an area known as the Ackerson Meadow. I tried to find a map of the newly acquired area, but all the media seem to be really keen on using the same stock photo of the meadow that the NPS posted on their press release page and providing relatively little additional information from that release. I add this because it's entirely possible that this extension will swallow up part of SR 120, causing a further relinquishment.

The 198 was just a hypothetical.  I included the TO 198s along with the CA 180s in Sequoia/Kings Canyon National Parks and even stuff from Giant Sequoia National Monument over on the other thread:

SO, with that in mind...Sequoia and Kings Canyon Highway signage is leaps and bounds better than what is seen up in Yosemite.  First off, no White Spades on brown guide signs:








So...a little mystery I touched on prior on in the thread.  Does CA 180 technically exist in the Grant Grove district of Kings Canyon National Park?  The signage around Grant Grove above and here seems to suggest that's a yes, the park map says no, and cahighways was vague on a verdict:





CA 180 never has any "TO" signage on it's implied route while CA 198 does, in addition to these placards telling you that you are on the Generals Highway:



Of course there is actually a couple CA 245 Shields in the Giant Sequoia National Monument:

The only TO 180 sign was coming down out of the Giant Forest on Wolverton Road to the Generals Highway.  All the rest are up in the Grant Grove section of Kings Canyon.  The 245s in the pictures are even the boundary of the Giant Sequoia National Monument....granted that's managed by the Forest Service.

[coatimundi]

So I'm not totally clear why you're putting in 245 pics because it never enters into a national park and is always maintained by Caltrans.

On cahighways.org, Section #3 & #4 are the two sections separated by the Grant Grove section of SeKi, the former General Grant National Park: http://www.cahighways.org/177-184.html#180
The remainder, through Grant Grove, is not maintained by Caltrans, and that was mostly my point. I recall the roadway asphalt being very different between the different sections and, if you go on StreetView, you can see that, but you'll also see the postmile at the eastern park boundary, marking the beginning of that fourth section.
My question was more related to where those shields are. The first 180 shield looks like the one I mentioned, just past the 198 junction, but where is the second one, with the arrow?

I meant to mention it in my other post, but both 180 and 198 have sections of state-maintained road that, for the most part, require fees by being isolated by Grant Grove. I know that there's a really rough jeep trail that you can take between the two 180 sections. It drops into that canyon that you see from parts of 180.

[Max Rockatansky]

With the 245, yes it's not in the National Park but as of 2000 it is within the bounds of Sequoia National Monument:



Not that there is any maintenance dispute....I thought it was interesting that even that first reassurance marker of 245 was in a Monument now.  The Forest Service actually maintains Giant Sequoia National Monument...which is interesting since part of the Generals Highway is in their territory but it would seem the Park Service maintains the road.  Even 180 between the two parts of Kings Canyon is technically now within the Monument.  Plus it was part of the same posted I copied over...hence the 245s.

If you are heading west out of Kings Canyon you'll see that "Fresno 55 miles, 180" sign west of the Generals Highway Junction and the 180 arrow at the last restroom before the park entrance station.  I mean more data suggests that Grant Grove technically isn't part 180 but even the wording on cahighways begs the question since it just says "Grant Grove."  That can be taken as a gap in the road or just a sectioning of highway on the page to separate it from all the history from 99 eastward into the Fresno area.

Colony Mill Road might be passable in a Jeep still all the way into Sequoia Natinoal Park.  That was the original lumber road that was built up to the Giant Forest in the Sequoia section.  At least the first 18 miles is apparently still driving condition, I did the first 8 since it was paved and raining where it turns to dirt.  Technically the final 8 miles are a "trail" now rather than a road but I would imagine that if cars could get up it at one point so could a stock modern Wrangler or a CJ.  I'm fairly certain that with Kings Canyon you're talking about Forest Route 14S75:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.6915745,-118.9477597,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDL7eizdcwRerlKDAtN_mxw!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7215024,-118.9094957,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAry7649fMTnfJUoTn64InQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

14S75 dumps right onto the Generals Highway at the intersection of Ten Mile Road.  Considering the GSV almost made it up all the way it seems that it might be fairly easy to traverse...maybe with 2WD even?  I don't know...now I'm intrigued to find out maybe on my next visit. 

[Quillz]

I don't know how much news it made, but Yosemite acquired an additional 400 acres just this past week on the north side of SR 120 just west of the park, in an area known as the Ackerson Meadow. I tried to find a map of the newly acquired area, but all the media seem to be really keen on using the same stock photo of the meadow that the NPS posted on their press release page and providing relatively little additional information from that release. I add this because it's entirely possible that this extension will swallow up part of SR 120, causing a further relinquishment.

My guess is that if CA-120 is already there, the signage won't change, even if the maintenance does. Isn't all of Tioga Pass Road already technically within national park boundaries and signed? I don't see things changing.

[Max Rockatansky]

Kind of sort of at Big Oak Flat Junction but I couldn't find CA 120 shields like Kings Canyon had.  I know that wasn't directed at me but Yosemite signage is something I recently looked at.  I'll link over my pictures when I get home from the other thread, lots of weird white spades. 

[coatimundi]

I don't know how much news it made, but Yosemite acquired an additional 400 acres just this past week on the north side of SR 120 just west of the park, in an area known as the Ackerson Meadow. I tried to find a map of the newly acquired area, but all the media seem to be really keen on using the same stock photo of the meadow that the NPS posted on their press release page and providing relatively little additional information from that release. I add this because it's entirely possible that this extension will swallow up part of SR 120, causing a further relinquishment.

My guess is that if CA-120 is already there, the signage won't change, even if the maintenance does. Isn't all of Tioga Pass Road already technically within national park boundaries and signed? I don't see things changing.

No, I think you're right about the shields: there's no reason to remove them, so why bother. But the postmiles are a different matter, and I would think Caltrans would be eager to eradicate them if there is indeed a change, because the park service will certainly take over maintenance.

I think it's a little much dwelling on 180's maintenance as if it's some sort of mystery that requires research. The Grant Grove section of Kings Canyon National Park predates both that national park and the California state highway system. The road up there even predates that original, General Grant, national park creation. It was a privately built road, but it may have followed a slightly different routing, and it certainly was less improved.
I haven't looked at it much, but I would guess that the highway system simply adopted that road into its system to provide access to Kings Canyon, but as the road through Grant Grove was already maintained by the park service at that point, it would have been left to them. What I don't know is who built that road on to Kings Canyon, but I would guess that it was mostly the state. There likely was a road going to that same destination, considering the dates of Kings Canyon National Park's creation and the desire to access that area, but it may have been on a different routing, and it would have been maintained by the county.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

More than likely the road was largely built when the Hume Lake Dam was constructed circa 1908-1909.  Originally 180 would have used Dunlap to reach what is now CA 245 and then it took the northward swing to it's modern alignment.  That's just speculation on my part but water impounding played a huge part of CA 168 nearby as well since those roads were already there.

Incidentally I found a Youtube video of your Jeep Trail into Kings Canyon; FR 14S75 at the bottom of this link:

http://www.pjammcycling.com/19.--whittaker-forest--ca.html

Yosemite is a much different beast than Sequoia/Kings Canyon with highway signage:

Big Oak Flat Road is where the weird California Spade signs start to appear.  I was cutting south on Big Oak Flat Road into Yosemite Valley to hit Wawona Road which leads to CA 41....so there was a CRAP TON of this....the Park Service must have gotten a package deal on white vinyl or something:





I'm fairly certain the orange sign with green CA 140 spade was supplied by Caltrans.  Anyways the sign refers to the Ferguson Rock Slide...but I'll talk more about that later.  Anyways, Big Oak Flat Road was apparently completed as a wagon route all the way back in 1874.  Basically the implied route of CA 120 runs from Big Oak Flat Road to where it intersects Tioga Road which it turns east....there is no implied anything for Big Oak Flat Road descending into Yosemite Valley but still cool that the miners in Big Oak Flat wanted access to the Valley so badly even back in the olden days:

[
Down in Yosemite Valley the weird white spades continue throughout.  I didn't get a picture but there is some nameless green spades for CA 140/120 and a MUTCD compliant US 395 sign heading east on El Portal Road to Big Oak Flat Road.  I stopped at the tunnel view for a minute after turning onto Wawona Road:



Anyways before I hit on Wawona Road and CA 41...I'll refer to my old topic I posted about El Portal Road, CA 140, and the Yosemite Valley Railroad:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18387.msg2159388#msg2159388

With that in mind the Yosemite Valley Railway terminated in El Portal and you would have had to taken a wagon from the left in the first pic.  The second pic is about the best view I could find of the Merced River Gorge where CA 140 runs at the bottom:


Okay, the Wawona Road has it's beginnings as an 1882 stage route built by the founders of the Wawona Hotel.  Technically part of the route existed back when the Hotel was built all the way back in 1876 but 1882 is when the stage route was extended to Yosemite Valley.  Apparently the stage route took a crap load of switch backs to reach the valley floor and probably was all sorts of miserable in a car before the Wawona Tunnel opened in 1933.  Basically this would be the most trafficked route from Yosemite due to it being a straight shot to Fresno via CA 41....and for some reason there is GREEN spades on a guide sign by Glacier Point Road...still look wrong to me:

[Quillz]

So I drove through Sherman Pass today. Yup, as far as I'm concerned, CA-190 is effectively a complete route. The middle segment, though it ends up a bit south of where Caltrans has its proposed alignment, is perfectly fine for traveling in the summer. It's actually a very easy road once you reach Ponderosa just east of Quaking Aspen, as the road stops climbing and straightens out a bit. Adoption here would actually be pretty useful, since most of the forest route signs aren't particular helpful for navigation. The one substandard area I found was around Kennedy Meadows: very old pavement and it's completely lacking any lane striping. But beyond that, Western Divide Highway -> Sherman Pass Road -> Kennedy Meadow Road -> Nine Mile Canyon Road makes a fine "unofficial" CA-190.

Sherman Pass was beautiful today. 100 F on the valley floor, but it was 60 F, windy and cloudy at the top. Couldn't see Mt. Whitney, though.

[kurumi]

Regarding the signposted end of CA 198, on our trip in 2009, we saw two "ends", both with postmiles in frame:
* for trucks TUL 41.23
* for non-trucks  TUL 44.63

[Quillz]

Turns out, according to Caltrans, CA-168 was intended to cross the Sierra:

SR 168 was originally planned as a trans-Sierra Nevada route, beginning in Fresno and
heading east through the Bishop area to the Nevada state line via modern US 6. This transmountain
route was never constructed for two important reasons. Steep and rocky terrain is
present throughout this area and the unconstructed portion lies within 2 officially designated
wilderness areas (created as a result of the 1964 Wilderness Act).

http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist9/planning/docs/tcr_sr168.pdf

But still, the original '34 plan shows not even a dotted/proposed line, so no idea how any proposal would look. It's my understanding that there are literally no roads at all west of the Lake Sabrina area. Even crazy proposals like 180-to-Independence could potentially make use of some existing roads.

[coatimundi]

But still, the original '34 plan shows not even a dotted/proposed line, so no idea how any proposal would look. It's my understanding that there are literally no roads at all west of the Lake Sabrina area. Even crazy proposals like 180-to-Independence could potentially make use of some existing roads.

A few months ago, I looked at the terrain between the two sections more, and found a potential routing that mostly followed an existing hiking trail (the John Muir Trail), and crossed at what's known as Italy Pass (12,000'+). The way the terrain looked in just looking at topos and Google Terrain, I don't see it as being at all feasible. Even if the money to push it through could have been secured, and environmentalists didn't fight it, it would have been buried in snow most of the year and in rockslides and washouts the rest of the year. I think there was a level of arrogance at the time these roads were planned, where planners that anything was possible with "modern" engineering. Experience has taught us lessons though about fighting nature, and when that fight becomes futile. 168 would have been futile.

[Quillz]

But still, the original '34 plan shows not even a dotted/proposed line, so no idea how any proposal would look. It's my understanding that there are literally no roads at all west of the Lake Sabrina area. Even crazy proposals like 180-to-Independence could potentially make use of some existing roads.

A few months ago, I looked at the terrain between the two sections more, and found a potential routing that mostly followed an existing hiking trail (the John Muir Trail), and crossed at what's known as Italy Pass (12,000'+). The way the terrain looked in just looking at topos and Google Terrain, I don't see it as being at all feasible. Even if the money to push it through could have been secured, and environmentalists didn't fight it, it would have been buried in snow most of the year and in rockslides and washouts the rest of the year. I think there was a level of arrogance at the time these roads were planned, where planners that anything was possible with "modern" engineering. Experience has taught us lessons though about fighting nature, and when that fight becomes futile. 168 would have been futile.

What really stings is a trans-Sierra 168 would actually be incredibly useful. Going to say, Mammoth, would be a much shorter trip if you could just take 5 -> 99 -> 180 -> 168 -> 395 -> 203. You'd avoid the (still) fairly slow 14 slog through the desert. The problem is there are essentially no viable Sierra crossing between 178 and 120. The forest routes that can make an unofficial 190 crossing have sometimes been closed between November-May, so it's useless for any kind of winter sports.

It is clear, though, that many of the original corridors of the '34 routes were based on the idea that there was infinite time, infinite money and anything was possible. It is a bit comical looking at what was planned and seeing what was reality. Just about every single SoCal route was planned to be a freeway (my personal favorite being the Decker Freeway that would have been a full-blown freeway from Malibu to Westlake Village).

[Max Rockatansky]

So I drove through Sherman Pass today. Yup, as far as I'm concerned, CA-190 is effectively a complete route. The middle segment, though it ends up a bit south of where Caltrans has its proposed alignment, is perfectly fine for traveling in the summer. It's actually a very easy road once you reach Ponderosa just east of Quaking Aspen, as the road stops climbing and straightens out a bit. Adoption here would actually be pretty useful, since most of the forest route signs aren't particular helpful for navigation. The one substandard area I found was around Kennedy Meadows: very old pavement and it's completely lacking any lane striping. But beyond that, Western Divide Highway -> Sherman Pass Road -> Kennedy Meadow Road -> Nine Mile Canyon Road makes a fine "unofficial" CA-190.

Sherman Pass was beautiful today. 100 F on the valley floor, but it was 60 F, windy and cloudy at the top. Couldn't see Mt. Whitney, though.

Too bad, you could see it the day prior at 9 AM at least:



I'm really at a loss to understand how the Sherman Pass route isn't more less known.  Like you said the only wonky part is technically where J41/Nine Mile Canyon Road begins at the end of Sequoia National Forest but once you cross into Inyo County you pick up a center stripe and the asphalt is much better in quality.  Apparently Nine Mile Canyon is basically a sustained 8% and dips close to 11% at times but that's nothing that couldn't be adopted into the highway system.  You're right about the signage though...it's basically non-existent and you really need to have a good understanding of a map to keep yourself on track.    I figure a combination of County Route, Forest Route, and TO California 190s could be used easily for navigational purposes.  The Olancha Pass plan is dead as a door knob anyways...so why not?

And I don't think Sherman Pass Road belongs on "dangerousroads.org."  I could potentially see Nine Mine Canyon Road maybe though given that's probably a decent idea to use 2nd gear and the drop offs are huge.

But still, the original '34 plan shows not even a dotted/proposed line, so no idea how any proposal would look. It's my understanding that there are literally no roads at all west of the Lake Sabrina area. Even crazy proposals like 180-to-Independence could potentially make use of some existing roads.

A few months ago, I looked at the terrain between the two sections more, and found a potential routing that mostly followed an existing hiking trail (the John Muir Trail), and crossed at what's known as Italy Pass (12,000'+). The way the terrain looked in just looking at topos and Google Terrain, I don't see it as being at all feasible. Even if the money to push it through could have been secured, and environmentalists didn't fight it, it would have been buried in snow most of the year and in rockslides and washouts the rest of the year. I think there was a level of arrogance at the time these roads were planned, where planners that anything was possible with "modern" engineering. Experience has taught us lessons though about fighting nature, and when that fight becomes futile. 168 would have been futile.

What really stings is a trans-Sierra 168 would actually be incredibly useful. Going to say, Mammoth, would be a much shorter trip if you could just take 5 -> 99 -> 180 -> 168 -> 395 -> 203. You'd avoid the (still) fairly slow 14 slog through the desert. The problem is there are essentially no viable Sierra crossing between 178 and 120. The forest routes that can make an unofficial 190 crossing have sometimes been closed between November-May, so it's useless for any kind of winter sports.

It is clear, though, that many of the original corridors of the '34 routes were based on the idea that there was infinite time, infinite money and anything was possible. It is a bit comical looking at what was planned and seeing what was reality. Just about every single SoCal route was planned to be a freeway (my personal favorite being the Decker Freeway that would have been a full-blown freeway from Malibu to Westlake Village).

Well consider the era, the EPA was forever away into the future and you didn't have as many protected lanes.  So basically if you had the money, time, and engineering you really could build whatever you wanted into the Sierras.  Granted....we're talking two-lane roads and not Interstates.  (insert your own FritzOwl joke  )

Basically any plan for 168 to cross the Sierra would have had to include a part if not all of Kaiser Pass Road.  Having driven up there recently I didn't see any particular reason why that couldn't be expanded to a 2 lane road fairly easily past the 5 mile mark, but it wouldn't be cheap with all the explosives that would be needed.  Italy Pass looks possible from what I've viewed this morning but we'd be talking one of the baddest roads in the country....but reputation and by height.

I know 180 at least had one dotted line route on the eastern part of the Sierra (one of you had an actual map with the dotted line) in proxy to Onion Valley Road.  I honestly don't even know where to begin with that one since the terrain falls so much to get to the bottom of Kings Canyon and Cedar Grove.  But 203?...was that ever planned as Trans-Sierra?  Funny...that one might actually would have worked if it would have followed the San Joaquin River all the way to Friant...could have ended at the "dotted line 65." 

[Quillz]

203 is post-64 and has never been intended to extend farther west, as far as I know.

[coatimundi]

What really stings is a trans-Sierra 168 would actually be incredibly useful. Going to say, Mammoth, would be a much shorter trip if you could just take 5 -> 99 -> 180 -> 168 -> 395 -> 203. You'd avoid the (still) fairly slow 14 slog through the desert. The problem is there are essentially no viable Sierra crossing between 178 and 120. The forest routes that can make an unofficial 190 crossing have sometimes been closed between November-May, so it's useless for any kind of winter sports.

I live almost directly west of 168's northern end. It would cut at least 3 hours off a trip to Vegas and almost that much for Death Valley, and would provide a very good way for us to get to Arizona, where we go at least once per year to visit family. I would love to see it happen. Really the way highways can be and are built today makes it a lot more possible for a mostly all-weather route to be built, supplanting all the other less desirable passes to the north, directing some of the truck traffic off of both 58 & 80, and opening up the Owens Valley for economic growth and closer connection to the rest of the state. Longer tunnels would both create extensive wildlife and hiking trail crossings and mitigate the steep grades along the routing, while modern rock shelters would reduce the impact of both slides and of snow drifts. 168 leading up to Huntington Lake is also in very good condition, with good lane widths and a lack of tight curves. Construction of a Shaver Lake bypass would likely be necessary, and the unbuilt freeway section would also have to be completed, but the road leading up to the end is otherwise in better shape than, I think, any other Sierra highway.

But it just won't happen. The ironic thing is that we've gotten so much better at building these sort of highways, but it's gotten so much harder at the same time, particularly in California.

[cahwyguy]

Not to mention the fact that any sort of construction like that would require an EIR, and one can imagine the impact of that construction and the mitigations required.

[Max Rockatansky]

It's funny, most of the completed Trans-Sierra routes had some sort of basis in the Gold Rush or in mining general.  Even Tioga Pass Road was built mainly for serving the needs of the local mines, there wasn't much of a gap to complete a Trans-Sierra route with Lee Vining Canyon being the lone major obstruction.  Ebbets was supposedly plotted out for a potential railroad even...EBBETS PASS.    I would love to find out the history of when Sherman Pass Road was found, built, and completed to the standards it is today....the rest are obvious why they are there.

So really...with all the red tape basically anything new crossing the Sierras is going to be pretty much an impossibility.  I'm actually surprised that I didn't think of the whole 203/San Joaquin River path.  The height of that "hypothetical" roadway would never exceed Minerat Summit just under 9,300 feet....granted it would be difficult to engineer a road following the river canyon.  It seems a lot more feasible for an all weather road given it's proximity to Mammoth and the ski rest.  Not to mention it would make for a really cool way of getting to Vegas...just sayin.  Just once in my lifetime I would love to see another "great American feat of engineering."  It just seems like something we've really lost touch with since the Interstates were completed and the EPA Act got passed.

[coatimundi]

Just once in my lifetime I would love to see another "great American feat of engineering."  It just seems like something we've really lost touch with since the Interstates were completed and the EPA Act got passed.

I didn't realize you were that young to have not been alive during construction of The Big Dig.

I would think the EIR would have to just be waived on a Sierra crossing. I mean, it would be so huge and so expensive that it would be worth it to just admit, "Yeah, it's potentially going to really f**k things up." It's one of those things where, if the demand is there, then it'll eventually get done. It's just as hard, if not harder, to build highways in Europe, yet they've had some crazy ones over the last few years. Plus some really impressive bridges and tunnels. There's just not enough demand right now for the public push needed to disregard the environmental concerns.

[Quillz]

One thing to remember is it wasn't that long ago that forests were quite literally cut down with no regards to the environmental impact. It wasn't that long ago factories could belch out as many fumes as they want. While this is in the past, it's still recent enough that society today is very concerned about building any new major roads.

[Quillz]

It's funny, most of the completed Trans-Sierra routes had some sort of basis in the Gold Rush or in mining general.  Even Tioga Pass Road was built mainly for serving the needs of the local mines, there wasn't much of a gap to complete a Trans-Sierra route with Lee Vining Canyon being the lone major obstruction.  Ebbets was supposedly plotted out for a potential railroad even...EBBETS PASS.    I would love to find out the history of when Sherman Pass Road was found, built, and completed to the standards it is today....the rest are obvious why they are there.

So really...with all the red tape basically anything new crossing the Sierras is going to be pretty much an impossibility.  I'm actually surprised that I didn't think of the whole 203/San Joaquin River path.  The height of that "hypothetical" roadway would never exceed Minerat Summit just under 9,300 feet....granted it would be difficult to engineer a road following the river canyon.  It seems a lot more feasible for an all weather road given it's proximity to Mammoth and the ski rest.  Not to mention it would make for a really cool way of getting to Vegas...just sayin.  Just once in my lifetime I would love to see another "great American feat of engineering."  It just seems like something we've really lost touch with since the Interstates were completed and the EPA Act got passed.

I looked at roughly where 203 would run if it were to follow the San Joaquin River, and I'm not sure how useful it would be. Seems you could very roughly have it connect with 168 (at which point you've got a north-south route, renumber the whole thing 203!) That would give you Mammoth access from, say, Fresno, but still not very useful if coming from the north. As long as we're talking about things that would never happen, what if 203 could connect into Yosemite Valley, offering access to 41 and 140? I could see that being a useful (and beautiful) road, as both are big tourist draws.

[Max Rockatansky]

One thing to remember is it wasn't that long ago that forests were quite literally cut down with no regards to the environmental impact. It wasn't that long ago factories could belch out as many fumes as they want. While this is in the past, it's still recent enough that society today is very concerned about building any new major roads.

Just once in my lifetime I would love to see another "great American feat of engineering."  It just seems like something we've really lost touch with since the Interstates were completed and the EPA Act got passed.

I didn't realize you were that young to have not been alive during construction of The Big Dig.

I would think the EIR would have to just be waived on a Sierra crossing. I mean, it would be so huge and so expensive that it would be worth it to just admit, "Yeah, it's potentially going to really f**k things up." It's one of those things where, if the demand is there, then it'll eventually get done. It's just as hard, if not harder, to build highways in Europe, yet they've had some crazy ones over the last few years. Plus some really impressive bridges and tunnels. There's just not enough demand right now for the public push needed to disregard the environmental concerns.

40 going on 41....and maybe it's just me but it's just another Interstate...one that was mired in a cluster %$% for most of my lifetime.  I remember living in Connecticut back in the 90s and hearing repeatedly how that whole project was getting further behind or something wasn't right.  I'm talking something that had the same level of impact in regards to modern times like the Hoover Dam when it was finished, the US Route, or hell even the Interstates.  I just don't see something with that kind of impact being built again any time soon, those were projects that literally changed day to day life.  To me something like this whole High Speed Rail wriggamoral really just doesn't have that kind of oomph to be captivating on that sort of level.  I mean let's face it, the infrastructure in this country really reached it's zenith in the mid-20th century right before the EPA Act.  As much shit as people give roadways and infrastructure in general in this country it's still pretty much the best in the world.  Basically the only place that is building massive projects would be in the Middle East or in China...often with some pretty damn wreckless abandon to impact. 

But then again people to be flipping out about things like cell phones, the internet, computers....those all among the crazed boons in American Society in the last 20 years.  I still don't even know how to download a phone app after all these years and I don't suspect that I'll be learning soon. 

Speaking of the Middle East....why the hell did Sky Scrapers fall out of vogue even before pre-9/11?  It probably has to do with the Westward and Sunbelt Migration in the US.  Most of those cities don't need large buildings being built around ironically the Interstates since they are much larger than the older eastern counterparts. 

Hey I'd love to see another Trans-Sierra Route at some point.  It might stand a chance one day on National Forest land provided they somehow avoid Sequoia Groves...which ought be some what easy to do in the Huntington Lake/CA 168 area.

It's funny, most of the completed Trans-Sierra routes had some sort of basis in the Gold Rush or in mining general.  Even Tioga Pass Road was built mainly for serving the needs of the local mines, there wasn't much of a gap to complete a Trans-Sierra route with Lee Vining Canyon being the lone major obstruction.  Ebbets was supposedly plotted out for a potential railroad even...EBBETS PASS.    I would love to find out the history of when Sherman Pass Road was found, built, and completed to the standards it is today....the rest are obvious why they are there.

So really...with all the red tape basically anything new crossing the Sierras is going to be pretty much an impossibility.  I'm actually surprised that I didn't think of the whole 203/San Joaquin River path.  The height of that "hypothetical" roadway would never exceed Minerat Summit just under 9,300 feet....granted it would be difficult to engineer a road following the river canyon.  It seems a lot more feasible for an all weather road given it's proximity to Mammoth and the ski rest.  Not to mention it would make for a really cool way of getting to Vegas...just sayin.  Just once in my lifetime I would love to see another "great American feat of engineering."  It just seems like something we've really lost touch with since the Interstates were completed and the EPA Act got passed.

I looked at roughly where 203 would run if it were to follow the San Joaquin River, and I'm not sure how useful it would be. Seems you could very roughly have it connect with 168 (at which point you've got a north-south route, renumber the whole thing 203!) That would give you Mammoth access from, say, Fresno, but still not very useful if coming from the north. As long as we're talking about things that would never happen, what if 203 could connect into Yosemite Valley, offering access to 41 and 140? I could see that being a useful (and beautiful) road, as both are big tourist draws.

I don't know...got a lot of buddies around Fresno who complain about far they have to go out of the way to ski in Mammoth.  I guess they really don't like going up to China Peak anymore.

Well that's the case what about connecting it to Glacier Point Road somehow?  That would kind of be the ultimate...cross Yosemite and the Sierras with the best overlook of the entire Valley floor in the park?