About two-and-a-half months ago, I got into a discussion about alleged "hidden routes" in Illinois somewhere out there on the Interwebs. Turns out that some people think that markers like this:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53674750575_c4ebddc766_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pM48m4)
can indicate "hidden state routes."
To confirm their suspicions, I reached out to IDOT and asked about the markers and why they have route numbers on them that may not be signed or have routes in IROADS. I referenced a specific example where one of these markers indicated a route 316 where the IROADS indicated it did not exist. I got a response from their Operations group:
"While the route near Charleston is not officially designated as state route 316, this is what our local IDOT district and residents in the area refer to the road as, so 316 was chosen for display on the reference signs."
Therefore, one should not use such markers as reliable indicators of official Illinois state routes.
If the local IDOT district refers to it as 316, does that not make it at least semi-official?
So IL 905 is still a thing right off of I-474?? (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10219520080833154&set=a.10219520161635174)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53674712314_31c23589a2_c.jpg)
Exit being referenced to:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53674582838_3806d4ba7d_c.jpg)
The thing about 316 is that the road actually was marked as IL 316 from 1963 to 1981.
Here in Montgomery County, old US 66 is marked with those signs as 934.
Quote from: NE2 on April 23, 2024, 05:08:52 PMIf the local IDOT district refers to it as 316, does that not make it at least semi-official?
By that logic, NY 7 from I-87 to Troy is actually Alternate NY 7. And an interstate.
Part of me wants to go knock on the door at IDOT D9 in Carbondale and ask someone on staff if that is accurate. I only see those route/county/mileage reference markers on state maintained roads, whether a shielded highway, old shielded highway, or merely "other" state-maintained routes
Business Highway 13 between IL 149/Walnut and IL 13/127 north of town (follows 11th St north from 149, becomes west on Poplar St, turns north on 14th St, then turns northeast on Ava Rd to reach 13/127) in Murphysboro doesn't have the reference markers at all, but it is IDOT-maintained
That said, D9 is at least decent signing "Begin State Maintenance" and "End State Maintenance" on state-maintained non-shielded roads
Quote from: ilpt4u on April 23, 2024, 10:03:03 PMPart of me wants to go knock on the door at IDOT D9 in Carbondale and ask someone on staff if that is accurate. I only see those route/county/mileage reference markers on state maintained roads, whether a shielded highway, old shielded highway, or merely "other" state-maintained routes
Business Highway 13 between IL 149/Walnut and IL 13/127 north of town (follows 11th St north from 149, becomes west on Poplar St, turns north on 14th St, then turns northeast on Ava Rd to reach 13/127) in Murphysboro doesn't have the reference markers at all, but it is IDOT-maintained
That said, D9 is at least decent signing "Begin State Maintenance" and "End State Maintenance" on state-maintained non-shielded roads
State maintained =/= state route.
That is a fine delineation. But for all practical purposes, when state maintained, it at least acts and quacks like a shielded/designated state route
Quote from: ilpt4u on April 23, 2024, 10:19:48 PMThat is a fine delineation. But for all practical purposes, when state maintained, it at least acts and quacks like a shielded/designated state route
Not really. You have to define the route for there to be a route.
Quote from: Rothman on April 23, 2024, 10:30:29 PMQuote from: ilpt4u on April 23, 2024, 10:19:48 PMThat is a fine delineation. But for all practical purposes, when state maintained, it at least acts and quacks like a shielded/designated state route
Not really. You have to define the route for there to be a route.
I was referring more to things like state ROW and permitting requirements, obviously state maintenance, state law enforcement, etc
For navigational and routing purposes, certainly not. Designated/signed routes are such for a reason, even if we sometimes find them ridiculous (the 100% redundant IL 110/336 designation). Unsigned/state-maintained routes are not typically the "major" corridor, more for local and/or business access or "old"/former alignments of realigned highways
Quote from: Rothman on April 23, 2024, 10:11:47 PMState maintained =/= state route.
Wat.
It's state-maintained and it's a route. It's a state route. It may not be a
State
Route, but it's a state route. The adjective "state" and the noun "route" are both correct.
IDOT maintains plenty of roads that are not signed routes. Besides signed numerical designations, there is a separate internal set of numerical designations for various roads across Illinois, state-maintained and otherwise (shown as "FAP", "FAU", etc.). But I don't think that's even what appears at the top of these mile markers. The process of deciding these numbers for the top of these mile markers has always been a mystery to me. Such numbers are usually in the 8000s or 900s (though 316 is an oddball).
Bill Burmaster's (rmsandw) site has covered a plethora of these unsigned state highways: https://www.billburmaster.com/rmsandw/illinois/misc/il900.html
Here are a few I have found in the wild:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50742500851_01d68defaf_c.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/2kiWzEk)IL-8677 (https://flic.kr/p/2kiWzEk) by Paul Across America (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53211143993_9f51de1545_c.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/2p562g8)IL-905WR-I-474 (https://flic.kr/p/2p562g8) by Paul Across America (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8818/27591181444_a1d96fa6a3_c.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/J391YU)IL-911-0MI (https://flic.kr/p/J391YU) by Paul Across America (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4306/35585172880_1f610a8de5_c.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/Wdxj8s)IL-919 (https://flic.kr/p/Wdxj8s) by Paul Across America (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 24, 2024, 04:24:27 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 23, 2024, 10:11:47 PMState maintained =/= state route.
Wat.
It's state-maintained and it's a route. It's a state route. It may not be a State Route, but it's a state route. The adjective "state" and the noun "route" are both correct.
IDOT maintains plenty of roads that are not signed routes. Besides signed numerical designations, there is a separate internal set of numerical designations for various roads across Illinois, state-maintained and otherwise (shown as "FAP", "FAU", etc.). But I don't think that's even what appears at the top of these mile markers. The process of deciding these numbers for the top of these mile markers has always been a mystery to me. Such numbers are usually in the 8000s or 900s (though 316 is an oddball).
Bill Burmaster's (rmsandw) site has covered a plethora of these unsigned state highways: https://www.billburmaster.com/rmsandw/illinois/misc/il900.html
Re-read the OP and understand where this thread started. You could also see what IDOT told me about where one fun marker came from as well (the 316 markers near Charleston on a segment that is not route 316). So, yeah, the "route numbers" on the markers should not be trusted for the actual route designation, like I said at the beginning.
Regarding the top number on the marker, my new friend at IDOT says, "If the route is unmarked, then an alternate or arbitrarily assigned 900-series number is used." In other words, the numbers on the markers are made up and have no correlation to any route designation and are -- to-many-a-roadgeek's-horror -- arbitrary.
Regarding the separate designations that you brought up: "Inventory Key Route" is an interesting designation, but it fulfills a specific purpose: This route designation is mainly to help with functional class of segments and therefore funding eligibility. This designation is simply for the compiling of their 5-year [functional] classification maps. Hence, "FAP" is federal-aid primary, "FAI" is federal-aid interstate, "FAU" is federal-aid urban, and so on, down to "Local" (classified by FHWA as not fed-aid eligible -- not by ownership or maintenance responsibility!). So, Inventory Key Routes are definitely not what we think of when we think of "State Routes," as you put it. They're not even "hidden State Routes," so to speak (i.e., State Routes IDOT just didn't shield for whatever reason).
Furthermore, what else is fun is "Marked Routes" -- the "State Routes" we know and love -- are not an
exclusive set of route designations. In other words, all Marked Routes have Inventory Key Route numbering -- well, of course, because all roads have a functional classification. But not all Inventory Key Routes are Marked Routes. So, it's not one or the other. But, Marked Routes are the "State Routes," as you put it, whether actually shielded or not.
So, no, state-maintained does not mean that it's on a State Route, and just because it has an Inventory Key Route doesn't mean that it's on a "hidden State Route" and I would go as far to say not even a real "state route," since you're talking about a GIS programmer's palette, essentially in that data field.
In any matter, I find IDOT's practices to be overly convoluted in this matter...and actually not well-perceived. My new friend at IDOT says that the round markers are used to identify crash locations, but if they don't correlate to anything official in their easily available GIS applications or, worse, only in one esoteric GIS database somewhere that keeps track of such, how efficient is that practice? I mean, NYSDOT has a lot of obsolete reference markers out in the field, but at least you can say that they were actually from a former designation rather than just "arbitrarily" numbered! And, I believe by now, NYSDOT finally has all their GIS data at least in one spot so its Regions don't need their own tailored ArcGIS files...IDOT's hodgepodge is looking behind the times. And, fine, NYSDOT does have various ways of inventorying its roads, but at least when you're talking about route numbers, reference markers and milepoints it all makes sense (except for the ye olde hyphenated route designations that are used to look up ye olde record plans from the medieval ages). :D
But wait, there's a postscript to this rant -- a codicil, if you will: Although I respect roadgeeks like Bill that dig into what-I'll-call "artifacts" -- old maps, old shields in the field, heck, old DOT docs -- to find out how DOTs operate, there's a lot of speculation or assumptions made out there based on such reading of the tea leaves that are incorrect and found to be such just by sending a DOT an e-mail and eventually getting an actual response.
Quote from: Rothman on April 24, 2024, 06:12:12 PMIn other words, the numbers on the markers are made up and have no correlation to any route designation and are -- to-many-a-roadgeek's-horror -- arbitrary.
I always imagine two newly-promoted interns whom were sent to the basement of some DOT, one with a well-worn dart board and another just crumpling up old documents and shooting three-pointers into the circular file becoming the ultimate deciders of secondary route numbers such as these; their fate decided while they talk of lucky numerals, old locker numbers, or the partial phone digits of their star-crossed and unrequited crushes which were not to be (they were into horses).
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 24, 2024, 04:24:27 PM(https://live.staticflickr.com/4306/35585172880_1f610a8de5_c.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/Wdxj8s)IL-919 (https://flic.kr/p/Wdxj8s) by Paul Across America (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
That is Old US 51 south of Carbondale, down to Makanda and the Union County line
Old 51's designation on the reference marker changes when one crosses the Jackson/Union County line between Makanda and Cobden, fwiw. 919 in Jackson and 911 in Union
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 24, 2024, 04:24:27 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 23, 2024, 10:11:47 PMState maintained =/= state route.
Wat.
It's state-maintained and it's a route. It's a state route. It may not be a State Route, but it's a state route. The adjective "state" and the noun "route" are both correct.
IDOT maintains plenty of roads that are not signed routes. Besides signed numerical designations, there is a separate internal set of numerical designations for various roads across Illinois, state-maintained and otherwise (shown as "FAP", "FAU", etc.). But I don't think that's even what appears at the top of these mile markers. The process of deciding these numbers for the top of these mile markers has always been a mystery to me. Such numbers are usually in the 8000s or 900s (though 316 is an oddball).
Bill Burmaster's (rmsandw) site has covered a plethora of these unsigned state highways: https://www.billburmaster.com/rmsandw/illinois/misc/il900.html
And these are just the ones IDOT marks in the wild. District 1 has a number of unmarked state routes that lack any sort of signage whatsoever to denote them as state routes, including the circular postmiles. The spur of the IL-53 freeway between Dundee Road and Lake-Cook Road comes to mind as just one example.
Quote from: Brandon on April 28, 2024, 05:45:12 PMAnd these are just the ones IDOT marks in the wild. District 1 has a number of unmarked state routes that lack any sort of signage whatsoever to denote them as state routes, including the circular postmiles. The spur of the IL-53 freeway between Dundee Road and Lake-Cook Road comes to mind as just one example.
District 1 doesn't even seem to use the circular postmiles on marked routes that often.
Quote from: Brandon on April 28, 2024, 05:45:12 PMQuote from: paulthemapguy on April 24, 2024, 04:24:27 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 23, 2024, 10:11:47 PMState maintained =/= state route.
Wat.
It's state-maintained and it's a route. It's a state route. It may not be a State Route, but it's a state route. The adjective "state" and the noun "route" are both correct.
IDOT maintains plenty of roads that are not signed routes. Besides signed numerical designations, there is a separate internal set of numerical designations for various roads across Illinois, state-maintained and otherwise (shown as "FAP", "FAU", etc.). But I don't think that's even what appears at the top of these mile markers. The process of deciding these numbers for the top of these mile markers has always been a mystery to me. Such numbers are usually in the 8000s or 900s (though 316 is an oddball).
Bill Burmaster's (rmsandw) site has covered a plethora of these unsigned state highways: https://www.billburmaster.com/rmsandw/illinois/misc/il900.html
And these are just the ones IDOT marks in the wild. District 1 has a number of unmarked state routes that lack any sort of signage whatsoever to denote them as state routes, including the circular postmiles. The spur of the IL-53 freeway between Dundee Road and Lake-Cook Road comes to mind as just one example.
This is actually a great example, since it gets at what I was saying before about inventory key routes just being a tool to denote functional class.
IL-53 is shown as a marked route in IROADS up to Dundee Road. Beyond Dundee Road, there is no entry in the marked route field for the spur (IL-53, of course, splits off).
Some would then point to the inventory key route and say, "A ha! I have found the secret hidden route number! It's 0342!" However, this inventory key route matches what the 5-year classification maps indicate as simply the non-Interstate freeway/expressway functional class of the spur
and the portion of IL-53 itself from the northern terminus of I-290 to the spur. The inventory key route is simply an identifier for functional class rather than "unmarked marked routes" that other States have. Definitely not on the same level as a NYSDOT reference route. Sure, the spur is a state-maintained road, but it doesn't have a route number on par with IDOT's marked routes. If so, the inventory key route would be marked as a concurrency and it is not.
On a tangent, what is even more interesting is IROADS shows I-290 ending "far" beyond it's end signage in the field, ending north of Algonquin Road before transitioning to IL-53. Actually makes sense since it's the end of the C-D ramp system and should all be considered I-290 up to that point, despite the placement of signage in the field. Would be 90% reimbursable NHPP funding per its functional class...
(And, have to say again...Illinois is a mess data-wise...)
... and this is one reason why Travel Mapping only goes off signed routes and mile markers do not qualify as signs*
* Exception provided for US Interstate Routes.
Quote from: SSOWorld on April 29, 2024, 07:50:34 AM... and this is one reason why Travel Mapping only goes off signed routes and mile markers do not qualify as signs*
* Exception provided for US Interstate Routes.
Hm. I see the asterix, but how does TM decide what unsigned Interstates are included in their dataset (e.g., I-124?)? What information do they rely upon?
Quote from: Rothman on April 29, 2024, 10:56:44 AMQuote from: SSOWorld on April 29, 2024, 07:50:34 AM... and this is one reason why Travel Mapping only goes off signed routes and mile markers do not qualify as signs*
* Exception provided for US Interstate Routes.
Hm. I see the asterix, but how does TM decide what unsigned Interstates are included in their dataset (e.g., I-124?)? What information do they rely upon?
You'll have to ask them.
I see no signage of I-444 in Tulsa, for example.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 24, 2024, 04:24:27 PMQuoteState maintained =/= state route.
Wat.
It's state-maintained and it's a route. It's a state route. It may not be a State Route, but it's a state route. The adjective "state" and the noun "route" are both correct.
MDOT (Michigan) calls these Unsigned State Highways. They are not shown as such on the official Transportation map and they are not signed in the field, but they are shown on the official Truck Operators map. The note included on this map says "Unsigned state highways are under MDOT jurisdiction. Their original statewide purpose is now served by alternate MDOT routes. MDOT intends to transfer the routes to local agencies at the appropriate time."
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 30, 2024, 08:51:05 AMQuote from: paulthemapguy on April 24, 2024, 04:24:27 PMQuoteState maintained =/= state route.
Wat.
It's state-maintained and it's a route. It's a state route. It may not be a State Route, but it's a state route. The adjective "state" and the noun "route" are both correct.
MDOT (Michigan) calls these Unsigned State Highways. They are not shown as such on the official Transportation map and they are not signed in the field, but they are shown on the official Truck Operators map. The note included on this map says "Unsigned state highways are under MDOT jurisdiction. Their original statewide purpose is now served by alternate MDOT routes. MDOT intends to transfer the routes to local agencies at the appropriate time."
Staying aware of roadway jurisdictions also becomes necessary to county, township, and local DOTs/public works departments. People who work at a county, like me, for example, need to know that state-maintained roads are not ours to mess with, whether or not that state-maintained route is marked in the field. That's why you can often find out which roads are unsigned state routes/highways by looking at county-level highway maps! In Illinois, anyway, you can almost always go to the website for a county DOT and click their general highway map. That county's general highway map will almost always have a layer for state-maintained roads, whether conspicuously signed or not! I'm not sure if this is true for other states, but I bet this method of snuffing out unsigned state routes will work at least a decent amount of the time.
IDOT does have a GIS tool for jurisdiction:
https://idot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=671e6e55488141709e9df88937456c66&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0ai7Wro7Ss3V6O5WMYzcqBo_LSGxnecZH8Gio5GZqOL9AbC-lo8Ap6aMU_aem_ARAtSQVvnAeCvkvYJZn1MP77Yin_7hKexQ1W_lKySdrtKmn3DxIW9xlNvvP6DuebE6SP6Zzp5tngXbzMlZp0nNJr
Quote from: Brandon on April 28, 2024, 05:45:12 PMAnd these are just the ones IDOT marks in the wild. District 1 has a number of unmarked state routes that lack any sort of signage whatsoever to denote them as state routes, including the circular postmiles. The spur of the IL-53 freeway between Dundee Road and Lake-Cook Road comes to mind as just one example.
"A number" is an understatement. It's wild how many roads IDOT has jurisdiction over up here. I argue that's part of the issue of why IDOT can't get ahead. They just have too many lane miles to manage, many of which are lowly roads that should be county or even local routes.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on May 01, 2024, 08:20:35 PMQuote from: Brandon on April 28, 2024, 05:45:12 PMAnd these are just the ones IDOT marks in the wild. District 1 has a number of unmarked state routes that lack any sort of signage whatsoever to denote them as state routes, including the circular postmiles. The spur of the IL-53 freeway between Dundee Road and Lake-Cook Road comes to mind as just one example.
"A number" is an understatement. It's wild how many roads IDOT has jurisdiction over up here. I argue that's part of the issue of why IDOT can't get ahead. They just have too many lane miles to manage, many of which are lowly roads that should be county or even local routes.
*VDOT enters the chat*