North Houston Highway Improvement Project (project resumed March 2023)

[achilles765]

God this whole thread makes me want to puke.

All this money could be used to fix some of Houston's more pressing needs, like having a functional drainage system or rail transit.

Meanwhile traffic on the existing interstates, which is already terrible, will continue to get significantly worse in future years. The rebuild was needed 20 years ago.

Have you ever driven I-10 / I-45 / I-69 around Downtown during rush hour?

Especially both 45 and 69. They each go down to three lanes each direction, there are no exits on 69 heading southbound, and so much weaving on 45 because of places where there are both left and right exits at the same time.
Heading north on 45 isn't we bad now that they reconfigured the interchange with 69/288 but it still backs up a bit.

[silverback1065]

God this whole thread makes me want to puke.

All this money could be used to fix some of Houston's more pressing needs, like having a functional drainage system or rail transit.

Meanwhile traffic on the existing interstates, which is already terrible, will continue to get significantly worse in future years. The rebuild was needed 20 years ago.

Have you ever driven I-10 / I-45 / I-69 around Downtown during rush hour?

Especially both 45 and 69. They each go down to three lanes each direction, there are no exits on 69 heading southbound, and so much weaving on 45 because of places where there are both left and right exits at the same time.
Heading north on 45 isn't we bad now that they reconfigured the interchange with 69/288 but it still backs up a bit.

and that's also not a state project fixing the drainage would be a local project.

[Anthony_JK]

God this whole thread makes me want to puke.

All this money could be used to fix some of Houston's more pressing needs, like having a functional drainage system or rail transit.

Meanwhile traffic on the existing interstates, which is already terrible, will continue to get significantly worse in future years. The rebuild was needed 20 years ago.

Have you ever driven I-10 / I-45 / I-69 around Downtown during rush hour?

No, but I've seen plenty of credible data to suggest that wanton freeway expansion in Houston has resulted in more traffic, not less: Reducing congestion: Katy didn't (uses Transtar data).

A smart strategy of easing chokepoints and investing in real alternatives (and thinking beyond just the pandemic) like public transit would actually work.

You mean, a "smart strategy" like blowing up every freeway inside the 610 Loop or Sam Houston Tollway and putting light rail on every third major thoroughfare in downtown Houston?

No, thank you.

I'm actually for keeping the Pierce Elevated in order to maintain the continuity of I-45 and only doing spot improvements to the remaining freeways, rather than this prohibitively expensive rebuild and reroute of I-45. But, at least I see the reality of keeping major freeways in place and not demolishing them just so you can have your beautiful but choked down "boulevards".

Like it or not, even in the age of COVID, people mostly drive. And, they're not going to stop driving. Yes, give them some decent alternatives (like upgrading and improving the bus system and adding in spots a light rail corridor or three), but New Urbanist excess in tearing down decent transportation modes is madness.

[silverback1065]

God this whole thread makes me want to puke.

All this money could be used to fix some of Houston's more pressing needs, like having a functional drainage system or rail transit.

Meanwhile traffic on the existing interstates, which is already terrible, will continue to get significantly worse in future years. The rebuild was needed 20 years ago.

Have you ever driven I-10 / I-45 / I-69 around Downtown during rush hour?

No, but I've seen plenty of credible data to suggest that wanton freeway expansion in Houston has resulted in more traffic, not less: Reducing congestion: Katy didn't (uses Transtar data).

A smart strategy of easing chokepoints and investing in real alternatives (and thinking beyond just the pandemic) like public transit would actually work.

You mean, a "smart strategy" like blowing up every freeway inside the 610 Loop or Sam Houston Tollway and putting light rail on every third major thoroughfare in downtown Houston?

No, thank you.

I'm actually for keeping the Pierce Elevated in order to maintain the continuity of I-45 and only doing spot improvements to the remaining freeways, rather than this prohibitively expensive rebuild and reroute of I-45. But, at least I see the reality of keeping major freeways in place and not demolishing them just so you can have your beautiful but choked down "boulevards".

Like it or not, even in the age of COVID, people mostly drive. And, they're not going to stop driving. Yes, give them some decent alternatives (like upgrading and improving the bus system and adding in spots a light rail corridor or three), but New Urbanist excess in tearing down decent transportation modes is madness.

if anything covid killed mass transit. at least it has here in indy.

[kernals12]

Couldn't TxDOT move the homes that are in the ROW? There's lots of vacant land nearby so in many cases, the homes would only have to move down the street.

[bwana39]

Couldn't TxDOT move the homes that are in the ROW? There's lots of vacant land nearby so in many cases, the homes would only have to move down the street.

In a lot of cases, the homes are rentals. The owners would prefer to cash in as opposed to having the house moved. Generally on substandard and minimally standard houses, Texas governmental agencies give a minimum figure based on square footage that significantly exceeds the value of the dwelling at the time of purchase. Moving it to a new location, he would have the former value in a new place. 

As to homeowners, this might be a good proposition, but regardless, it won't be the same familiar view out the front door.

[J N Winkler]

While relocating houses and other built improvements are an option that remains on the table, I don't see it coming close to being the preferred choice except possibly for mobile homes and other types of manufactured structures.  Most of the house-moving stories I've seen in connection with highway construction have been in the late 1940's and early 1950's, when:  (1) people expected to be asked to relocate on very short notice, (2) there was a housing shortage, and (3) it was much more common for houses not to have indoor plumbing, piped hot water, and other amenities that are now expected if not legally required.

[kernals12]

While relocating houses and other built improvements are an option that remains on the table, I don't see it coming close to being the preferred choice except possibly for mobile homes and other types of manufactured structures.  Most of the house-moving stories I've seen in connection with highway construction have been in the late 1940's and early 1950's, when:  (1) people expected to be asked to relocate on very short notice, (2) there was a housing shortage, and (3) it was much more common for houses not to have indoor plumbing, piped hot water, and other amenities that are now expected if not legally required.

The house moving business is still a pretty big one. And if that idea doesn't work, TxDOT should develop replacement housing itself.

[TXtoNJ]

While relocating houses and other built improvements are an option that remains on the table, I don't see it coming close to being the preferred choice except possibly for mobile homes and other types of manufactured structures.  Most of the house-moving stories I've seen in connection with highway construction have been in the late 1940's and early 1950's, when:  (1) people expected to be asked to relocate on very short notice, (2) there was a housing shortage, and (3) it was much more common for houses not to have indoor plumbing, piped hot water, and other amenities that are now expected if not legally required.

The house moving business is still a pretty big one. And if that idea doesn't work, TxDOT should develop replacement housing itself.

Having the transportation department get in the business of land development is a complete non-starter in Texas. There would be laws against it quickly, if there weren't already.

[J N Winkler]

The house moving business is still a pretty big one. And if that idea doesn't work, TxDOT should develop replacement housing itself.

The article does note that the permitting process is convoluted, with costs to use a state highway running to the thousands of dollars, and the total cost can range from $15,000 to over $200,000.

Not all people displaced by a highway actually want to live in their current houses in new locations--a large number will be satisfied with a replacement elsewhere that has equal amenities at minimum (improved provision often falls out of the negotiation).  They can stick the state DOT with the bill for moving household effects since highway agencies in the US are legally mandated to provide relocation assistance as well as compensation for the land and improvements they take.

Typically replacement housing, moving services, etc. are purchased on the open market and the expenses are vouchered to the state DOT.

[MaxConcrete]

In separate action, most of the downtown work has been delayed due to financial constraint, which presumably is loss of revenue due to Covid. https://www.h-gac.com/getmedia/27fd20e3-92a8-48f4-b901-0f5c43316b34/STIP-Movement-Detail-Pages-January2021.pdf

IH69 from Spur 527 to SH288 ($260 million): still listed for 2022
IH69 from SH288 to IH45 ($485 million): still listed for bidding in July 2022
IH69/IH10 interchange and IH10 on the north side of downtown ($1.06 billion): delayed from 2022 to 2024
IH69 on the east side of downtown ($1.14 billion): delayed from 2022 to 2025
IH45 on the west side of downtown ($243 million): delayed from 2022 to 2025
All work on the northwest side of downtown (IH45/IH10 interchange) to Loop 610: no longer scheduled, listed as 2030 start date in planning documents

The latest document posted on the HGAC site (see page 61-62 https://www.h-gac.com/getmedia/ba8b4e23-e65d-4bc4-8cc1-9ea0ac70ebee/Item-9.pdf) now lists the $1.06 billion of work on the northwest side of downtown for fiscal year 2022. Previously it was listed for 2030. This seems to make sense to me, because the IH10 Inner Katy project is a high priority (see separate thread) with the BRT listed for fiscal year 2023 and it really needs this section of the NHHIP to be built for connections into downtown. The costs per section seem to fluctuate from document to document and may depend on whether right-of-way is included, and I think the overall project cost has probably stayed about the same. Fiscal year 2022 seems somewhat optimistic, and of course everything depends on no lawsuit being filed and TxDOT still having sufficient funding.

IH 45 and IH 10 on the northwest side of downtown ($1.06 billion): 2022 (was 2030)
IH69 from Spur 527 to SH288 (now listed at $378 million): 2022  (unchanged)
IH69 from SH 288 to IH 45 (now listed at $347 million): 2022 (unchanged)
IH69 from SH 288 to IH 45 signature bridges ($86 million): 2022
IH69/IH10 interchange and IH10 on the north side of downtown (now listed at $1.44 billion): 2024 (unchanged)
IH 45 west side of downtown (now listed at $263 million): 2025 (unchanged)
IH 69 on the east side of downtown (now listed at $1.84 billion): 2025 (unchanged)

[kernals12]

God this whole thread makes me want to puke.

All this money could be used to fix some of Houston's more pressing needs, like having a functional drainage system or rail transit.

Meanwhile traffic on the existing interstates, which is already terrible, will continue to get significantly worse in future years. The rebuild was needed 20 years ago.

Have you ever driven I-10 / I-45 / I-69 around Downtown during rush hour?

No, but I've seen plenty of credible data to suggest that wanton freeway expansion in Houston has resulted in more traffic, not less: Reducing congestion: Katy didn't (uses Transtar data).

A smart strategy of easing chokepoints and investing in real alternatives (and thinking beyond just the pandemic) like public transit would actually work.

You mean, a "smart strategy" like blowing up every freeway inside the 610 Loop or Sam Houston Tollway and putting light rail on every third major thoroughfare in downtown Houston?

No, thank you.

I'm actually for keeping the Pierce Elevated in order to maintain the continuity of I-45 and only doing spot improvements to the remaining freeways, rather than this prohibitively expensive rebuild and reroute of I-45. But, at least I see the reality of keeping major freeways in place and not demolishing them just so you can have your beautiful but choked down "boulevards".

Like it or not, even in the age of COVID, people mostly drive. And, they're not going to stop driving. Yes, give them some decent alternatives (like upgrading and improving the bus system and adding in spots a light rail corridor or three), but New Urbanist excess in tearing down decent transportation modes is madness.

Memorial Drive carries less traffic now than it did in 1960, thanks to the Katy Freeway.

[MaxConcrete]

As expected, Harris County has filed the lawsuit to stop the project.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/Harris-County-sues-to-stop-I-45-rebuild-plans-by-16018449.php

At this point, anything can happen, either outside of the courtroom (TxDOT withdrawing funding) or with the court's decision.

As long as HGAC maintains its support for the project, my expectation is that it will go to trial and the court will decide the future of the project.

Whatever happens, the project is not moving forward anytime soon. The initial issue to be determined is if an injunction to stop ongoing work on the project will be issued. Without an injunction, preliminary work such as ROW acquisition and design can proceed. If there's no injunction and if TxDOT ultimately wins litigation, the project could resume quickly.

[abqtraveler]

As expected, Harris County has filed the lawsuit to stop the project.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/Harris-County-sues-to-stop-I-45-rebuild-plans-by-16018449.php

At this point, anything can happen, either outside of the courtroom (TxDOT withdrawing funding) or with the court's decision.

As long as HGAC maintains its support for the project, my expectation is that it will go to trial and the court will decide the future of the project.

Whatever happens, the project is not moving forward anytime soon. The initial issue to be determined is if an injunction to stop ongoing work on the project will be issued. Without an injunction, preliminary work such as ROW acquisition and design can proceed. If there's no injunction and if TxDOT ultimately wins litigation, the project could resume quickly.

The FHWA issued a letter to TxDOT yesterday asking them to pause work on the I-45 expansion project to review letters in opposition to the project. IMHO, building and expanding freeways in the Houston metro are hasn't worked well in reducing traffic congestion and maybe it's time to take a look at some mass transit options. The Houston metro area has to be the largest metro area in the country that doesn't have a robust mass transit network with things like light rail or subways. Given that Houston is on par with Chicago population-wise, you'd think they would have had a robust mass transit network by now, but they don't.

[kernals12]

As expected, Harris County has filed the lawsuit to stop the project.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/Harris-County-sues-to-stop-I-45-rebuild-plans-by-16018449.php

At this point, anything can happen, either outside of the courtroom (TxDOT withdrawing funding) or with the court's decision.

As long as HGAC maintains its support for the project, my expectation is that it will go to trial and the court will decide the future of the project.

Whatever happens, the project is not moving forward anytime soon. The initial issue to be determined is if an injunction to stop ongoing work on the project will be issued. Without an injunction, preliminary work such as ROW acquisition and design can proceed. If there's no injunction and if TxDOT ultimately wins litigation, the project could resume quickly.

The FHWA issued a letter to TxDOT yesterday asking them to pause work on the I-45 expansion project to review letters in opposition to the project. IMHO, building and expanding freeways in the Houston metro are hasn't worked well in reducing traffic congestion and maybe it's time to take a look at some mass transit options. The Houston metro area has to be the largest metro area in the country that doesn't have a robust mass transit network with things like light rail or subways. Given that Houston is on par with Chicago population-wise, you'd think they would have had a robust mass transit network by now, but they don't.

A transit system would be massively expensive and be useless to anyone who doesn't work downtown

Edit: and actually, these express lanes do help mass transit since buses can use them for free.

[TXtoNJ]

As expected, Harris County has filed the lawsuit to stop the project.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/Harris-County-sues-to-stop-I-45-rebuild-plans-by-16018449.php

At this point, anything can happen, either outside of the courtroom (TxDOT withdrawing funding) or with the court's decision.

As long as HGAC maintains its support for the project, my expectation is that it will go to trial and the court will decide the future of the project.

Whatever happens, the project is not moving forward anytime soon. The initial issue to be determined is if an injunction to stop ongoing work on the project will be issued. Without an injunction, preliminary work such as ROW acquisition and design can proceed. If there's no injunction and if TxDOT ultimately wins litigation, the project could resume quickly.

The FHWA issued a letter to TxDOT yesterday asking them to pause work on the I-45 expansion project to review letters in opposition to the project. IMHO, building and expanding freeways in the Houston metro are hasn't worked well in reducing traffic congestion and maybe it's time to take a look at some mass transit options. The Houston metro area has to be the largest metro area in the country that doesn't have a robust mass transit network with things like light rail or subways. Given that Houston is on par with Chicago population-wise, you'd think they would have had a robust mass transit network by now, but they don't.

You'd need transit stakeholders who are interested in doing more than slapping themselves on the back for doing the bare minimum.

[abqtraveler]

As expected, Harris County has filed the lawsuit to stop the project.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/Harris-County-sues-to-stop-I-45-rebuild-plans-by-16018449.php

At this point, anything can happen, either outside of the courtroom (TxDOT withdrawing funding) or with the court's decision.

As long as HGAC maintains its support for the project, my expectation is that it will go to trial and the court will decide the future of the project.

Whatever happens, the project is not moving forward anytime soon. The initial issue to be determined is if an injunction to stop ongoing work on the project will be issued. Without an injunction, preliminary work such as ROW acquisition and design can proceed. If there's no injunction and if TxDOT ultimately wins litigation, the project could resume quickly.

The FHWA issued a letter to TxDOT yesterday asking them to pause work on the I-45 expansion project to review letters in opposition to the project. IMHO, building and expanding freeways in the Houston metro are hasn't worked well in reducing traffic congestion and maybe it's time to take a look at some mass transit options. The Houston metro area has to be the largest metro area in the country that doesn't have a robust mass transit network with things like light rail or subways. Given that Houston is on par with Chicago population-wise, you'd think they would have had a robust mass transit network by now, but they don't.

You'd need transit stakeholders who are interested in doing more than slapping themselves on the back for doing the bare minimum.

If they took the time and effort to figure out where to place the transit lines and stations to have the greatest impact on moving people from A to B while reducing traffic on the existing road network, then the investment would be worth it. But for Houston, they've gotten to the point where they can no longer expand their way out of traffic congestion. Up in the DFW Metroplex, they're recognizing this problem and are starting to integrate more mass transit solutions alongside highway improvement projects.

[MaxConcrete]

Given that Houston is on par with Chicago population-wise, you'd think they would have had a robust mass transit network by now, but they don't.

One of the main purposes of NHHIP is to add managed lanes to serve multiple needs, including public transit. The project does not include sustained general purposed main lanes, only new lanes at bottleneck locations. Most right-of-way needs along IH45 is for the managed lanes.

As pointed out by others, Houston has an extensive HOV system. Ridership on commuter transit services has collapsed everywhere since Covid-19. This makes Houston's low-cost HOV system look a lot smarter than vastly more expensive train systems used by other cities, including Chicago.

[Plutonic Panda]

What impact does the FHWA request have? Can TxDOT not simply ignore it and proceed as legally possible?

[abqtraveler]

What impact does the FHWA request have? Can TxDOT not simply ignore it and proceed as legally possible?

The FHWA has to sign off on the EIS and ROD. They could withhold that approval if TxDOT elects to ignore their letter and continue moving forward with the I-45 widening.

[Plutonic Panda]

What impact does the FHWA request have? Can TxDOT not simply ignore it and proceed as legally possible?

The FHWA has to sign off on the EIS and ROD. They could withhold that approval if TxDOT elects to ignore their letter and continue moving forward with the I-45 widening.

I suppose that this would further delay the project but then TxDOT could sue no? What grounds could they hold it up on if TxDOT does everything legally?

[Plutonic Panda]

PS, Houston absolutely needs a large, HRT system in downtown. It needs to be elevated like CTAs.

[kernals12]

PS, Houston absolutely needs a large, HRT system in downtown. It needs to be elevated like CTAs.

Why? Those el trains are hideous.

[kernals12]

Another thing that doesn't bode well for transit ridership: A not insubstantial number of people take the bus only because they want to save on gas. This is confirmed by the decline in ridership after gas prices crashed in 2014. Electric cars are way more efficient than gasoline ones, which will surely put a dent in ridership

[Chris]

Wouldn't it be weird if a project of this magnitude would not be sued? I would expect such a large project to be appealed against.

Houston is one of the few metro areas that has seen its congestion level gone down. It also ranks lower today than it did during the 1980s, even with the explosive population growth. Houston has been better in keeping its infrastructure up with the growing demand than many other metropolitan areas.

More transit could be nice, but this wouldn't make a dent in traffic volumes. It should be a separate consideration. Even in Europe, which has urbanized more transit-friendly, new transit projects never reduce traffic volumes on freeways. Only covid or huge economic crises manage to do that.