Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

Started by NJRoadfan, June 17, 2010, 10:58:35 AM

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mrsman

If there was a constraint and I was limited to doing an FYA signal with only 3 aspects, I would prefer a bimodal green/yellow on the bottom aspect so that a protected green arrow and a permitted flashing yellow arrow were shown on the same aspect and the steady yellow indicating that the phase is terminating be in the middle.  This would help drivers be more aware of the change from flashing yellow to steady yellow.  This is also what most FYA doghouses do, utilizing the left two aspects for steady yellow arrow and green/flashing yellow arrow.

From the ODOT brochure, I notice the following warning:

Always watch the signal for your turn lane . . . not the
signals or traffic in other lanes.

Definitely an important rule to follow to avoid a potential yellow trap situation.  The difficulty is putting this into practice.

The video linked on the previous post makes it clear, at least for the intersection in the video, that opposing traffic does not have a lagging left.  The steady yellow arrow and the adjacent yellow ball indicate to me that opposing traffic is also seeing a yellow at the same time.  So in this case, watching the adjacent signals will not be a problem - as drivers frequent the intersection they will realize that the steady yellow arrow comes at the same time as adjacent yellow.  If it is easier to watch the adjacent signals to be aware of the change, then that's what they will do.

The problem, of course, is that drivers cannot apply a similar logic to other intersections.  Doing a similar manouver of focusing on adjacent signals where opposing traffic has lagging left will definitely lead to a yellow trap collision.

I live in MD, which is a state that still refuses to incorporate the FYA.  We have a flashing red arrow instead.  So far, I have not yet seen one in action that is opposite a lagging left.  But I can tell you of the one nearest my home which operates as leading lefts on both sides.  There used to be doghouses on both approaches, and IMO they should have stayed as doghouses.  Now, the operation of the signal, southbound to eastbound, is as follows:

1) Green arrow - Red orb (both sides have a leading green arrow simultaneously)
2) Green arrow - green orb (the southbound left is heavier and more protection time is give to it, while the opposite side is timed out)
3) Yellow arrow - green orb
4) Steady red arrow - green orb (there is a brief 10 second steady red arrow condition when opposing nortbound traffic begins to get the green, there was no equivalent to this when doghouses were used)
5) Flashing red arrow - green orb (general permissive left turn phase.  The flashing red arrow, with accompanying signage, means that you have to come to a complete stop before proceeding with your turn.  This is annoying, especially with good visibilty that lets you see that there is no oncoming traffic.  Why must every car treat this like a stop sign?)
6) Solid red arrow - yellow orb (As is common with simultaneous leading left, the permissive turn will end at the same time as adjacent thru traffic.  If this were a 4 aspect FYA it would be a solid yellow arrow.   But with a solid red arrow, you are technically not allowed to make the turn!  Most people do treat this as if it were a doghouse and use the yellow orb phase to make sure that opposing traffic stops before making their turn.  But there is no good warning that the signal is coming to an end beause there is no yellow arrow phase to help terminate the permissive turn.  This is awful.)
7) Solid red arrow - red orb (After a brief all red, it is now cross-traffic's turn.)

As a roadgeek, I am probably more aware of yellow trap issues than the average driver.  Fortunately, the one intersection with flashing red arrow that I frequent is leading left, so there is no yellow trap issue.  [I have no way of knowing if that is true for all of the other flashing red arrow setups.]  But the way that it is setup, without a clear warning of the end of the permissive phase and with essentially a legal prohbition to complete the turn, drivers are basically forced to watch the adjacent signals to use the yellow orb as the warning that the phase is coming to an end.  In that small regard, Ohio is at least better in that the yellow arrow will still permit you to wait and turn later.  But it is still a problem if people get used to the idea that it is easier to track the phase changes of the arrow signal by watching the adjacent thru.  That does not work if the opposing side is lagging left or if there are other forms of preemption in the signal.

I should note that the above signal that I discussed in MD is also right next to a fire station, but I am unsure if signal preemption has any effect here.


andrepoiy

In Ontario, I have observed that signal phasing is set up at most intersections that a yellow trap would never occur. That is because the left-turn arrow only turns on after cross traffic's light just turned red. It would never turn on at any other point during the cycle at most intersections.

Perhaps that's why we never saw the need to replace our signals with flashing yellow arrows or equivalent.

Bitmapped

Quote from: andrepoiy on March 20, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
In Ontario, I have observed that signal phasing is set up at most intersections that a yellow trap would never occur. That is because the left-turn arrow only turns on after cross traffic's light just turned red. It would never turn on at any other point during the cycle at most intersections.

Perhaps that's why we never saw the need to replace our signals with flashing yellow arrows or equivalent.

You can still have a yellow trap even with lead-only turn arrows. WVDOH uses leading arrows almost exclusively, with many signals set up so that you'll get an arrow if you wait long enough **without cycling to the side-street phase.** While this helps traffic flow, it does introduce a yellow trap problem. I encountered this myself at the signal turning in to the Elkins Sheetz. I was waiting to turn left and my side's signals went to yellow. I went to complete my turn and was surprised when the oncoming traffic still have a green ball and now green arrow as well. I quickly realized what was happening and there was no crash, but there easily could have been.

andrepoiy

Quote from: Bitmapped on March 22, 2021, 01:28:02 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 20, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
In Ontario, I have observed that signal phasing is set up at most intersections that a yellow trap would never occur. That is because the left-turn arrow only turns on after cross traffic's light just turned red. It would never turn on at any other point during the cycle at most intersections.

Perhaps that's why we never saw the need to replace our signals with flashing yellow arrows or equivalent.

You can still have a yellow trap even with lead-only turn arrows. WVDOH uses leading arrows almost exclusively, with many signals set up so that you'll get an arrow if you wait long enough **without cycling to the side-street phase.** While this helps traffic flow, it does introduce a yellow trap problem. I encountered this myself at the signal turning in to the Elkins Sheetz. I was waiting to turn left and my side's signals went to yellow. I went to complete my turn and was surprised when the oncoming traffic still have a green ball and now green arrow as well. I quickly realized what was happening and there was no crash, but there easily could have been.

Yes, and that doesn't occur here in Ontario at most intersections, at least by my observations.  The arrow would never turn on until after the side street goes. Although I had never been in a situation where the left turn queue is long enough but there are no vehicles on the side street, so maybe it can occur, but is so rare that I still haven't seen one despite living here for my whole life.

jakeroot

Quote from: andrepoiy on March 22, 2021, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: Bitmapped on March 22, 2021, 01:28:02 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 20, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
In Ontario, I have observed that signal phasing is set up at most intersections that a yellow trap would never occur. That is because the left-turn arrow only turns on after cross traffic's light just turned red. It would never turn on at any other point during the cycle at most intersections.

Perhaps that's why we never saw the need to replace our signals with flashing yellow arrows or equivalent.

You can still have a yellow trap even with lead-only turn arrows. WVDOH uses leading arrows almost exclusively, with many signals set up so that you'll get an arrow if you wait long enough **without cycling to the side-street phase.** While this helps traffic flow, it does introduce a yellow trap problem. I encountered this myself at the signal turning in to the Elkins Sheetz. I was waiting to turn left and my side's signals went to yellow. I went to complete my turn and was surprised when the oncoming traffic still have a green ball and now green arrow as well. I quickly realized what was happening and there was no crash, but there easily could have been.

Yes, and that doesn't occur here in Ontario at most intersections, at least by my observations.  The arrow would never turn on until after the side street goes. Although I had never been in a situation where the left turn queue is long enough but there are no vehicles on the side street, so maybe it can occur, but is so rare that I still haven't seen one despite living here for my whole life.

I would guess that's his point. It's extremely rare but most signal controllers likely allow a green arrow "mid phase" after a very lengthy amount of time. The concept of there never being anyone on the side street for dozens of minutes is very unlikely, but there has to be a failsafe somehow. Although the failsafe could be "allow green arrow if no cars occupy the opposing left turn lane".

Although WSDOT specifically bans lagging green arrows with regular 4/5 section "yield on green" signals (as opposed to FYA signals), I have in fact witnessed exactly what Bitmapped witnessed here in Washington State anyways. Heavy left turns, no side street traffic; the signal eventually cycled to a green arrow for that left turn.

mrsman

Quote from: jakeroot on March 23, 2021, 01:05:27 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 22, 2021, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: Bitmapped on March 22, 2021, 01:28:02 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 20, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
In Ontario, I have observed that signal phasing is set up at most intersections that a yellow trap would never occur. That is because the left-turn arrow only turns on after cross traffic's light just turned red. It would never turn on at any other point during the cycle at most intersections.

Perhaps that's why we never saw the need to replace our signals with flashing yellow arrows or equivalent.

You can still have a yellow trap even with lead-only turn arrows. WVDOH uses leading arrows almost exclusively, with many signals set up so that you'll get an arrow if you wait long enough **without cycling to the side-street phase.** While this helps traffic flow, it does introduce a yellow trap problem. I encountered this myself at the signal turning in to the Elkins Sheetz. I was waiting to turn left and my side's signals went to yellow. I went to complete my turn and was surprised when the oncoming traffic still have a green ball and now green arrow as well. I quickly realized what was happening and there was no crash, but there easily could have been.

Yes, and that doesn't occur here in Ontario at most intersections, at least by my observations.  The arrow would never turn on until after the side street goes. Although I had never been in a situation where the left turn queue is long enough but there are no vehicles on the side street, so maybe it can occur, but is so rare that I still haven't seen one despite living here for my whole life.

I would guess that's his point. It's extremely rare but most signal controllers likely allow a green arrow "mid phase" after a very lengthy amount of time. The concept of there never being anyone on the side street for dozens of minutes is very unlikely, but there has to be a failsafe somehow. Although the failsafe could be "allow green arrow if no cars occupy the opposing left turn lane".

Although WSDOT specifically bans lagging green arrows with regular 4/5 section "yield on green" signals (as opposed to FYA signals), I have in fact witnessed exactly what Bitmapped witnessed here in Washington State anyways. Heavy left turns, no side street traffic; the signal eventually cycled to a green arrow for that left turn.

It would seem like something like that would be an oversight.  If you are using 4 or 5 section signals, and both sides are leading left only, then a left arrow can only display after both sides of the main road have gone to red.  It can be a brief red, and side street traffic does not necessarily have to get a green, but you need a red to precede the green arrow to avoid yellow trap.

It is an unusual circumstance, though.  In my experience, with permissive protected green arrows, the main street will rest on green and will not go to red unless there is a "call" from the side street.  So there could be many cars waiting to turn left, but the arrow is not triggered because the signal never goes to red.  The left turners will just have to find a gap during the green orb phase.

jakeroot

Quote from: mrsman on March 23, 2021, 11:42:03 PM
It would seem like something like that would be an oversight.  If you are using 4 or 5 section signals, and both sides are leading left only, then a left arrow can only display after both sides of the main road have gone to red.  It can be a brief red, and side street traffic does not necessarily have to get a green, but you need a red to precede the green arrow to avoid yellow trap.

It is an unusual circumstance, though.  In my experience, with permissive protected green arrows, the main street will rest on green and will not go to red unless there is a "call" from the side street.  So there could be many cars waiting to turn left, but the arrow is not triggered because the signal never goes to red.  The left turners will just have to find a gap during the green orb phase.

Well, and let's be real: there's truly no need for an arrow unless traffic is insanely saturated. And if oncoming traffic is really that saturated, it's unlikely that a signal would be installed at the location unless there was also some side-street traffic, so that brief red is almost certain to happen under 99.9% of circumstances.

Still, it's no issue for the FYA signal. It's been a while since I've seen a new protected-permissive solid green signal installed anyways.

NJRoadfan

....and over 10 years later, I still haven't seen a standard FYA signal in NJ. Yeah, I know about the right turn FYA in Piscataway: https://goo.gl/maps/q9eTP4bS14XzRSt18

NJDOT standard remains 4-element signals with bi-LED left arrows which county and municipal road agencies also install (and seen above).

SignBridge

Well LOL, ya gotta understand that New Jersey is a little behind the times in some ways. They don't allow self-service gas stations either. All gas is still pumped the old-fashioned way by attendants.

But seriously I do like New Jersey's standard supplemental head on the reverse side of the mast-arm. That's a good standard practice.

jakeroot

Quote from: SignBridge on April 19, 2021, 05:39:54 PM
But seriously I do like New Jersey's standard supplemental head on the reverse side of the mast-arm. That's a good standard practice.

I agree with this. I think it's a great practice. More states should do this, even at smaller intersections.

NJRoadfan

Yeah, kinda noticed it was missing when I was in Florida. There are some intersections where it would be a benefit.

fwydriver405

Quote from: NJRoadfan on April 19, 2021, 12:26:12 PM
NJDOT standard remains 4-element signals with bi-LED left arrows which county and municipal road agencies also install (and seen above).

And the occasional 5-section signal as well, usually in doghouse form?

Off-topic, but at that same intersection I linked above, what is the point of the W25-1 sign on the leg where left turns are prohibited (left turn leads down the wrong way) and there is no permissive left turn to yellow trap? I'm guessing the opposing leg with the doghouses use lagging lefts.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: NJRoadfan on April 19, 2021, 12:26:12 PM
....and over 10 years later, I still haven't seen a standard FYA signal in NJ. Yeah, I know about the right turn FYA in Piscataway: https://goo.gl/maps/q9eTP4bS14XzRSt18

NJ isn't the only state to exclude FYAs, although there aren't too many states left that don't.

QuoteNJDOT standard remains 4-element signals with bi-LED left arrows which county and municipal road agencies also install (and seen above).

Just to note: Your example is actually a SJTA (Atlantic City Expressway) install, who either maintains jurisdiction or turned over maintenance to Camden County as it's on CR 689.

The 4 element, bi-light arrow is standard, but not exclusive.  US 30 at Copley Road (near 295) is an example where you can find standard 3 element signals, 4 elements with the bi-LED arrow, a 5 element doghouse, and a 5 element tower at the same intersection! https://goo.gl/maps/cwPmNGjg4L9JxeCF6 .  As in your example above, the doghouse and tower are used due to the restrictive sight lenses used.   And while most counties also use bi-model lenses, Burlington County tends to stick with doghouses.

Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 20, 2021, 04:05:49 AM
Off-topic, but at that same intersection I linked above, what is the point of the W25-1 sign on the leg where left turns are prohibited (left turn leads down the wrong way) and there is no permissive left turn to yellow trap? I'm guessing the opposing leg with the doghouses use lagging lefts.

Correct.  Not often done in NJ, this is a rare example of lagging lefts being used.

A quick history of this interchange:  When it didn't exist, the overpass was a single lane wide in each direction. When the interchange was built, the overpass was widened to 4 lanes (2 per direction), with the left lane being a straight/left turn lane. The lagging left was used to clear out the lane at the end of each cycle.  This was built when Cross Keys Road was on a growth spurt, with much of the road being widened to 2 lanes each direction in the general area. Someone greatly underestimated the amount of traffic trying to get thru this area, and a few years later the overpass was widened again, to 6 lanes wide (3 per direction), which allowed for 2 straight lanes and an exclusive left turn lane in each direction.  Even though at that point they could've switched to the more standard leading left turn arrow, they kept the lagging left arrows. 

The current, biggest issue at this interchange is the off ramp from the ACX East can back up thru the toll plaza, and can take more than a cycle to get thru.  IMO it would be best to add a 3rd lane on the ramp between the toll plaza and the light, split for Left, Left/Right and Right Turns.  I think the ramp is squeezed in as is, with the highway on the left and (I believe) an Atlantic City Electric utility company access road for power lines to the right.

mrsman

Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 20, 2021, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on April 19, 2021, 12:26:12 PM
NJDOT standard remains 4-element signals with bi-LED left arrows which county and municipal road agencies also install (and seen above).

And the occasional 5-section signal as well, usually in doghouse form?

Off-topic, but at that same intersection I linked above, what is the point of the W25-1 sign on the leg where left turns are prohibited (left turn leads down the wrong way) and there is no permissive left turn to yellow trap? I'm guessing the opposing leg with the doghouses use lagging lefts.

It seems that it is NJ practice to put the W25-1 sign on the leg opposite a lagging left even if that turn is prohibited.  You are correct that the main purpose of such sign was as a signed warning of a potential yellow trap situation, but that would not exist here, since the yellow trapped left turn would be illegal (against a one-way offramp).  However, there are still some safety benefits to knowing that opposing traffic has an extended green - mostly to benefit people doing illegal actions:
-informs peds who may want to illegally cross B-CK (Berlin-Cross Keys) when they begin to see a yellow or a red for B-CK traffic that half the street still has a green
- informs people who may be making an illegal u-turn that their illegal u-turn is yellow trapped
- informs peoplw who may be making a left at a driveway right before the intersection that they should not rely on the upcoming signal because of potential yellow trap.

The sign is also the lagging left corollary to "DELAYED GREEN" that is also frequently posted at many places opposite a leading left.  The purpose of that is to warn drivers not to go just because you see opposing traffic go.  While it is true that cross-traffic has a red, you also have a red in order to provide for a leading protected left in the opposite direction.  To some extent, there may be similar concerns for lagging lefts as well.

So the sign is not strictly needed, but NJ feels that its a good idea to have the sign.

jamess

I saw this video of a crash on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/comments/mwf7i8/so_much_going_on_here_shaken_up_am_i_the_idiot/

One of the replies had an interesting theory:

QuoteIntersection of 55th St and US Hwy 63 in Rochester, MN. I just looked it up on Google Street View. There are two turn lanes, and there's a flashing yellow light during the cycle where those cars can turn against traffic (there's a sign overhead indicating that left turn must yield on flashing yellow).

Which sort of explains the whole thing. We have flashing yellows around me for left turns, but I've never seen one on a double turn. And sometimes I see cars get very confused when they look up and see a yellow light. The dark SUV that causes the wreck probably saw several cars in front and beside them turn, approached the intersection, looked up to see a yellow light (wasn't paying attention enough to see that it was flashing) and thought the light cycle was ending, OP would stop at the hanging yellow-to-red light, and they wanted to get through the intersection as their light was turning red. But it wasn't turning red, and OP sill had a green light. Dangerously designed intersection plus inattentive driver = crunch.

I think this theory could be correct, and does show a danger to this kind of install. Lots of people see yellow as hurry up and make it through.

jakeroot


Scott5114

uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

mrsman

Quote from: jamess on April 23, 2021, 12:05:22 AM
I saw this video of a crash on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/comments/mwf7i8/so_much_going_on_here_shaken_up_am_i_the_idiot/

One of the replies had an interesting theory:

QuoteIntersection of 55th St and US Hwy 63 in Rochester, MN. I just looked it up on Google Street View. There are two turn lanes, and there's a flashing yellow light during the cycle where those cars can turn against traffic (there's a sign overhead indicating that left turn must yield on flashing yellow).

Which sort of explains the whole thing. We have flashing yellows around me for left turns, but I've never seen one on a double turn. And sometimes I see cars get very confused when they look up and see a yellow light. The dark SUV that causes the wreck probably saw several cars in front and beside them turn, approached the intersection, looked up to see a yellow light (wasn't paying attention enough to see that it was flashing) and thought the light cycle was ending, OP would stop at the hanging yellow-to-red light, and they wanted to get through the intersection as their light was turning red. But it wasn't turning red, and OP sill had a green light. Dangerously designed intersection plus inattentive driver = crunch.

I think this theory could be correct, and does show a danger to this kind of install. Lots of people see yellow as hurry up and make it through.

This was more the fault of the drivers than the intersection.  The left turner should not have gone without making sure that the driver would stop.  But the driver definitely had the "last clear chance" to avoid the accident, had he been going slower.  To see all those drivers ahead making the left turn should be an indication that there may be a whole string of cars doing it.  And the pedestrian there just adds to the mess.  That ped could have very easily been killed by even attempting to cross there when the light was still green.  This driver did not appear to make any attempt to slow down at all.  (Contributory negligence)

At the same time, the double left certainly played a slight role.  The driver in the inner left turn lane was stopped and waiting (probably seeing that the thru driver was not coming to a stop).  That driver's vehicle could certainly be a bit of a visual block to the left turning SUV who got in the crash.  Then again, I've seen similar situations with single left turns where a whole slew of cars can turn because of a very large gap, even while the light is still green, that I really can't place the blame on the intersection here.  It seems like the thru driver was 70% fault and the left turner was 30% fault, IMO.

jakeroot

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2021, 02:52:11 AM
ok tradephoric

Yeah fair, but I genuinely think there's a disconnect there. There's very little evidence that most (i.e. well designed) double left turns with permissive phasing are actually dangerous, but there seems to be a lot of data showing larger, multi-lane roundabouts to be, at the very least, crash hot spots. Yet the latter is a far more popular road project. :-/

jamess

Whats the reason they went with flashing yellow and not flashing red?

Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

...but if I see a flashing yellow arrow, it means I have to stop and they get to go?

Seems conflicting.

Amtrakprod

Flashing amber arrows exist in Ireland I guess!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIW-ZjrO7wk
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

US 89

Quote from: jamess on April 23, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Whats the reason they went with flashing yellow and not flashing red?

Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

...but if I see a flashing yellow arrow, it means I have to stop and they get to go?

Seems conflicting.

But you don't have to stop on a flashing yellow arrow. All you have to do is yield to pedestrians and oncoming traffic... which you would also have to do making a left on a flashing yellow light.

empirestate

Quote from: jamess on April 23, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Whats the reason they went with flashing yellow and not flashing red?

Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

...but if I see a flashing yellow arrow, it means I have to stop and they get to go?

Seems conflicting.

Much of the early part of this thread dealt with this question. The point of nuance seems to be whether the arrow signal imposes its meaning only on the movement it describes, or if it imposes the meaning of a non-arrow signal, but only on those motorists making the movement it describes.

mrsman

Quote from: empirestate on April 24, 2021, 10:49:44 AM
Quote from: jamess on April 23, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Whats the reason they went with flashing yellow and not flashing red?

Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

...but if I see a flashing yellow arrow, it means I have to stop and they get to go?

Seems conflicting.

Much of the early part of this thread dealt with this question. The point of nuance seems to be whether the arrow signal imposes its meaning only on the movement it describes, or if it imposes the meaning of a non-arrow signal, but only on those motorists making the movement it describes.

Right.  And a lot of that discussion did go over the fact that some places were very concerned with that meaning.  And that the FYA could be misconstrued as giving the turning movement the right of way, even though opposing traffic and peds would generally have the right of way over turning traffic with a FYA. 

Because of all of this, some states were hesitant to adopt the FYA and have indeed adopted FRA instead, like Delaware and Maryland.  But in most of the other states, with good signage explaining the meaning, a good education campaign, and most importantly many years of drivers getting used to the new signals and figuring out what they mean  -- it was determined that a FYA signal can accomplish what is needed and drivers properly understand that they need to focus on their signal and that they need to yield on FYA.

On top of this, one can see how painful it actually is to have a flashing red arrow.  I mentioned in other places how it is a far worse indication for the permissive left, since each car is required to make a full stop, even when there is a large gap in opposing traffic.  Furthermore, when the permissive phase ends, there is usually no yellow arrow that follows.  It goes from flashing red to solid red.  The one of these that I come in contact with the most (Georgia at Arcola in Wheaton, MD) consists of a leading left.  So the signal goes from green arrow - yellow arrow - brief solid red arrow - flashing red arrow (while adjacent thru has green) - solid red arrow (while adjacent thru has yellow) - solid red arrow (red orb).  As we all know how common it is to make a turn at the end of the phase if there was no gap big enough to turn, you see that during the yellow orb, there is a solid red arrow - which means that making the turn at this time is technically illegal - a big problem.  Fortunately, as this intersection is a leading left, I treat it as though it had a doghouse signal (which it used to) and most other drivers as well.  If there are cars sitting in the intersection, they make the left at yellow orb, despite the solid red arrow.

So all in all, using the flashing yellow arrow has proven to be the correct signal to use for the permissive turn with yielding.

zachary_amaryllis

i guess what i really don't get about the fyas... is that it seems they come on at times when making a left is more or less impossible..

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on
  • street. SB lanes get green light and green arrow. i'm shown an FYA. whats the point? there's no way anyone can make a left in the face of the oncoming traffic thats just starting from the light. seems like there should be a delay, at least until my side gets the green ball.
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)



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