The Clearview thread

[cl94]

Mainland Europe and possibly parts of Latin America might be the only places where metric is used almost exclusively. Most of the Commonwealth still uses Imperial for some things and that's not going anywhere, while the US uses metric for quite a bit, especially in science (everything I deal with is metric, even if it comes from the US), the food industry (drinks are often sold by multiples of a liter), and medicine (doses are in milligrams).

[vdeane]

Regarding Canada:

[Brandon]

Another interesting example of metrication (again not strictly metrication - but worldwide issue) is switch to lumens for light bulbs. Most old farts like me are used to 40/60/75 watts, but need to switch to 450/800/110 lm. Interestingly enough, I did see LED headlights and LED headlight replacement bulbs - but I don't remember them rated in lumens, I may stop by at Pep boys to double check.

Lumens actually makes it easier to correlate between the newer bulbs which use less wattage (LEDs) and older bulbs (incandescent) that use more wattage.  Lumens is a measure of light output, not energy used.

[kalvado]

Cups and teaspoons are neither imperial nor metric. Neither is pinch (of salt).
Actually with typical cooking accuracy of measurement there is no difference between 240 ml cup containing 16 tablespoons of 15 ml  or 48 teaspoons 5 ml each on one hand  and 8 oz cup of 16 tablespoons (1/2 oz ea)  or 48 teaspoons (1/6 oz) on the other.  I guess the root cause is that average human mouth doesn't really change in size after conversion to metric - so spoons must have same size, give or take.
Just for the record: my 26 oz mug should not be used for cooking measurements.

[kalvado]

Another interesting example of metrication (again not strictly metrication - but worldwide issue) is switch to lumens for light bulbs. Most old farts like me are used to 40/60/75 watts, but need to switch to 450/800/110 lm. Interestingly enough, I did see LED headlights and LED headlight replacement bulbs - but I don't remember them rated in lumens, I may stop by at Pep boys to double check.

Lumens actually makes it easier to correlate between the newer bulbs which use less wattage (LEDs) and older bulbs (incandescent) that use more wattage.  Lumens is a measure of light output, not energy used.

there is also a distinction that modern bulbs are more stabilized and less affected by fluctuations of grid voltage. Incandescent bulb can visibly change brightness when hairdryer is used in adjacent room.
But I am using this as an example of how typical measurement system can change - and sky doesn't fall.

[Brandon]

Another interesting example of metrication (again not strictly metrication - but worldwide issue) is switch to lumens for light bulbs. Most old farts like me are used to 40/60/75 watts, but need to switch to 450/800/110 lm. Interestingly enough, I did see LED headlights and LED headlight replacement bulbs - but I don't remember them rated in lumens, I may stop by at Pep boys to double check.

Lumens actually makes it easier to correlate between the newer bulbs which use less wattage (LEDs) and older bulbs (incandescent) that use more wattage.  Lumens is a measure of light output, not energy used.

there is also a distinction that modern bulbs are more stabilized and less affected by fluctuations of grid voltage. Incandescent bulb can visibly change brightness when hairdryer is used in adjacent room.
But I am using this as an example of how typical measurement system can change - and sky doesn't fall.

However, that said, we should maintain a system that actually matches what is on the ground, not some new system that has zero correlation to anything that was originally surveyed out as in the PLSS.  Miles and acres fit, meters and hectares don't.  Having a dual or split system works just fine as well.

[kalvado]

Another interesting example of metrication (again not strictly metrication - but worldwide issue) is switch to lumens for light bulbs. Most old farts like me are used to 40/60/75 watts, but need to switch to 450/800/110 lm. Interestingly enough, I did see LED headlights and LED headlight replacement bulbs - but I don't remember them rated in lumens, I may stop by at Pep boys to double check.

Lumens actually makes it easier to correlate between the newer bulbs which use less wattage (LEDs) and older bulbs (incandescent) that use more wattage.  Lumens is a measure of light output, not energy used.

there is also a distinction that modern bulbs are more stabilized and less affected by fluctuations of grid voltage. Incandescent bulb can visibly change brightness when hairdryer is used in adjacent room.
But I am using this as an example of how typical measurement system can change - and sky doesn't fall.

However, that said, we should maintain a system that actually matches what is on the ground, not some new system that has zero correlation to anything that was originally surveyed out as in the PLSS.  Miles and acres fit, meters and hectares don't.  Having a dual or split system works just fine as well.

You understand that 1 statue mile is legally 5280 feet, and 1 foot is legally 0.3048 meters? And pound is legally 0.45359237 kilograms?  There is no separate etalon for foot, pound or mile, by now things are strictly derived from metric.  So from the legal perspective 1 mile is 1609.344 meters, where meter is defined through speed of light and cesium clock, and so on.  Even for US investment in a separate set of etalons and definitions would quickly become prohibitively expensive.

[Brandon]

Another interesting example of metrication (again not strictly metrication - but worldwide issue) is switch to lumens for light bulbs. Most old farts like me are used to 40/60/75 watts, but need to switch to 450/800/110 lm. Interestingly enough, I did see LED headlights and LED headlight replacement bulbs - but I don't remember them rated in lumens, I may stop by at Pep boys to double check.

Lumens actually makes it easier to correlate between the newer bulbs which use less wattage (LEDs) and older bulbs (incandescent) that use more wattage.  Lumens is a measure of light output, not energy used.

there is also a distinction that modern bulbs are more stabilized and less affected by fluctuations of grid voltage. Incandescent bulb can visibly change brightness when hairdryer is used in adjacent room.
But I am using this as an example of how typical measurement system can change - and sky doesn't fall.

However, that said, we should maintain a system that actually matches what is on the ground, not some new system that has zero correlation to anything that was originally surveyed out as in the PLSS.  Miles and acres fit, meters and hectares don't.  Having a dual or split system works just fine as well.

You understand that 1 statue mile is legally 5280 feet, and 1 foot is legally 0.3048 meters? And pound is legally 0.45359237 kilograms?  There is no separate etalon for foot, pound or mile, by now things are strictly derived from metric.  So from the legal perspective 1 mile is 1609.344 meters, where meter is defined through speed of light and cesium clock, and so on.  Even for US investment in a separate set of etalons and definitions would quickly become prohibitively expensive.

Um, yes, I know that, but I'm a little sick of the metric-only morons who think that their system is the only, superior one.

Again, there really is no problem with having both systems, as we already use them.  Milligrams for medicine, liters for pop, pounds for produce, feet and inches for height.  Did you know that metric is, gasp, also official in the US, alongside customary?  Hence, we do have both systems, use the one you want, but I see no reason to switch to kilometers from miles due to what's already on the ground.  It's pointless.

[lordsutch]

Well, technically for survey purposes (PLSS), the survey foot is (re)defined as 1200⁄3937 meters rather than 0.3048 meters. But the larger point stands.

In essence, the traditional units (which in some, but not all cases, correspond to the British imperial units) are just labels for certain quantities of metric units, just not arranged in convenient powers of 10 like the "official" ones.

But then again on the ground, even in "metricated" countries, in day-to-day life people regularly use similar labels; the local language equivalent of a "pound" is usually shorthand for 500g, for example (within 10% of the 454g mass of a U.S. pound), while the local word for "foot" is typically a metric length pretty close to whatever the country's pre-metric foot was. The center circle of an association football pitch is still 9.15m in radius - or ten yards, even in countries that never adopted imperial measures (the field itself may be an exact metric size, since FIFA allows variations in pitch size - which is how NYC FC can somehow play games in Yankee Stadium - but all the measured markings are based on imperial lengths). And you'll replace the imperial pint only after grabbing it from the cold, dead hands of the last Briton or Irishman.

The main problem with continuing to use the traditional system is in situations where conversions regularly come into play. I recently went to the hospital for a procedure and was happy to see they weighed me using the metric system - no risk of getting not enough anesthesia or drugs because someone forgot to multiply my weight by 2.2 when calculating the proper dose. Similarly, if you're designing a space probe, make everything metric or make none of it metric; otherwise, you'll learn the lesson of avoiding unnecessary conversions the hard way, as NASA once did.

Otherwise, a mix of hard and soft metric conversions is fine, either way; Canada still has 355 mL cans of soda, and somehow we gringos manage to survive without being confused too much by 16.9 oz bottles.

[kalvado]

Again, there really is no problem with having both systems, as we already use them.  Milligrams for medicine, liters for pop, pounds for produce, feet and inches for height.  Did you know that metric is, gasp, also official in the US, alongside customary?  Hence, we do have both systems, use the one you want, but I see no reason to switch to kilometers from miles due to what's already on the ground.  It's pointless.

Well, questions come if you need to find out how many 2x4" studs are required for 5 meter wall. Given that 2" stud is actually anywhere between 1.25 and 1.75" wide..
Or when you need to have metric and inch -dimensioned components in the same setup.
ANd units mess-up can cause real problems, see Gimly Glider story. So.. I really don't know what is best...

[kalvado]

And, by the way.. Is anyone here is old enough to recall how metric medications made their way to US?  Was there some transition period, or just new medications came out metric while old ones were phased out?

[Pink Jazz]

I have been noticing some new panels for illuminated street blades in Gilbert, Arizona that are in FHWA.  The first ones I saw were at McQueen and Guadalupe Road in all-caps FHWA, while another one has recently been installed at Power Road and Queen Creek Road, this one being mixed case.  Both of these replaced existing panels that were in Helvetica. 

So it looks like for signalized intersections, Gilbert went from Helvetica, then to Clearview, and now to FHWA.  I wonder what are the plans for other cities around here that use Clearview for street blades.  Mesa and Chandler also used Helvetica prior to switching to Clearview.

[machias]

No idea if NYSTA has made the switch back yet, as their sign plans have had FHWA for well over a year and every sign installed with those plans was Clearview. No idea if the new (Fall 2015) FHWA signs along I-190 in Buffalo were a one-off or the new NYSTA standard. I'm hoping the latter, as they're quite beautiful, but I'm not holding my breath.

I noticed a couple of new signs on the Thruway last weekend that were FHWA and not Clearview. I know the Thruway was planning to phase out their use of Clearview before the mandate to do so. I just wish they'd replace those hideous overhead signs along the 90/Mainline in the Buffalo area because they are just about unreadable at night and they're only two years old.

[Pink Jazz]

BTW, I decided to email the City of Mesa (one of the earliest adopters of Clearview in the Phoenix area besides Phoenix itself), and I got confirmation that they are now using the FHWA fonts for street blades.  Regular street blades are using Series C, while those mounted overhead on traffic signals are using Series D.

[cl94]

No idea if NYSTA has made the switch back yet, as their sign plans have had FHWA for well over a year and every sign installed with those plans was Clearview. No idea if the new (Fall 2015) FHWA signs along I-190 in Buffalo were a one-off or the new NYSTA standard. I'm hoping the latter, as they're quite beautiful, but I'm not holding my breath.

I noticed a couple of new signs on the Thruway last weekend that were FHWA and not Clearview. I know the Thruway was planning to phase out their use of Clearview before the mandate to do so. I just wish they'd replace those hideous overhead signs along the 90/Mainline in the Buffalo area because they are just about unreadable at night and they're only two years old.

Where are the new signs?

[MisterSG1]

No idea if NYSTA has made the switch back yet, as their sign plans have had FHWA for well over a year and every sign installed with those plans was Clearview. No idea if the new (Fall 2015) FHWA signs along I-190 in Buffalo were a one-off or the new NYSTA standard. I'm hoping the latter, as they're quite beautiful, but I'm not holding my breath.

I noticed a couple of new signs on the Thruway last weekend that were FHWA and not Clearview. I know the Thruway was planning to phase out their use of Clearview before the mandate to do so. I just wish they'd replace those hideous overhead signs along the 90/Mainline in the Buffalo area because they are just about unreadable at night and they're only two years old.

Where are the new signs?

And on the same topic, why are the Clearview signs on the Thruway difficult to read when it gets dark. I was on the Thruway a couple weeks ago and noticed this......I don't see how the fault lies with clearview but how weak the legend on the sign is. What causes the Clearview signs to be so badly legible at night?

[machias]

No idea if NYSTA has made the switch back yet, as their sign plans have had FHWA for well over a year and every sign installed with those plans was Clearview. No idea if the new (Fall 2015) FHWA signs along I-190 in Buffalo were a one-off or the new NYSTA standard. I'm hoping the latter, as they're quite beautiful, but I'm not holding my breath.

I noticed a couple of new signs on the Thruway last weekend that were FHWA and not Clearview. I know the Thruway was planning to phase out their use of Clearview before the mandate to do so. I just wish they'd replace those hideous overhead signs along the 90/Mainline in the Buffalo area because they are just about unreadable at night and they're only two years old.

Where are the new signs?

A few exit gore sign replacements are in FHWA, westbound Exit 44 being one of them. I also saw a new service area sign in FHWA (don't remember which one) and a supplemental destination sign somewhere in the western part of the state.  One thing I noticed between Syracuse and Rochester are the number of faded signs that are starting to peel a little bit. I think that stretch is due for a sign replacement project soon, but I don't see it happening in the near future as many of the signs were just relocated onto new posts. 

Exit gore signs were in Clearview up until earlier this year, the new ones I spotted this past weekend were the first I had seen in FHWA in a long, long while.

[AMLNet49]

If the Thruway Authority is going back to FHWA fonts, will it be the standard glyphs we see on most new signs, or the slightly different variation seen in numerous places on the Thruway system? This variation appears bolder and almost has a hand-painted type look to it, I've always thought it was a gorgeous font. It can be found mostly on signs approaching toll plazas and also on service plaza signs. Here is an example: https://goo.gl/maps/h5XGUWsFAy62

[cl94]

No idea if NYSTA has made the switch back yet, as their sign plans have had FHWA for well over a year and every sign installed with those plans was Clearview. No idea if the new (Fall 2015) FHWA signs along I-190 in Buffalo were a one-off or the new NYSTA standard. I'm hoping the latter, as they're quite beautiful, but I'm not holding my breath.

I noticed a couple of new signs on the Thruway last weekend that were FHWA and not Clearview. I know the Thruway was planning to phase out their use of Clearview before the mandate to do so. I just wish they'd replace those hideous overhead signs along the 90/Mainline in the Buffalo area because they are just about unreadable at night and they're only two years old.

Where are the new signs?

And on the same topic, why are the Clearview signs on the Thruway difficult to read when it gets dark. I was on the Thruway a couple weeks ago and noticed this......I don't see how the fault lies with clearview but how weak the legend on the sign is. What causes the Clearview signs to be so badly legible at night?

Likely the wrong type of reflective sheeting. They're harder to read at night than the non-reflective signs they replaced.

A few exit gore sign replacements are in FHWA, westbound Exit 44 being one of them. I also saw a new service area sign in FHWA (don't remember which one) and a supplemental destination sign somewhere in the western part of the state.  One thing I noticed between Syracuse and Rochester are the number of faded signs that are starting to peel a little bit. I think that stretch is due for a sign replacement project soon, but I don't see it happening in the near future as many of the signs were just relocated onto new posts. 

Exit gore signs were in Clearview up until earlier this year, the new ones I spotted this past weekend were the first I had seen in FHWA in a long, long while.

Nice. I'll be driving through there next week. I'll keep an eye out.

[seicer]

I noticed the reflectiveness issue as well around Buffalo. It was downright impossible to see some of the letters and numbers because the sign wasn't reflective and what light did bounce off only casted it elsewhere on the sign (with distracting lights hitting it from other vehicles). It's hard to describe, but the sign was overly dark and bright in spots.

[vdeane]

It honestly looks like the letters on the clearview signs aren't reflective at all.  I have no idea why they did that.

It's amazing the lengths the Thruway will go to keep signs that are past their prime still in service.  New posts, lighting... as much as I like that generation of signage, it seems like it would be cheaper to just replace the signs to me.

[machias]

I noticed the reflectiveness issue as well around Buffalo. It was downright impossible to see some of the letters and numbers because the sign wasn't reflective and what light did bounce off only casted it elsewhere on the sign (with distracting lights hitting it from other vehicles). It's hard to describe, but the sign was overly dark and bright in spots.

All of the Emergency Detour signs I've seen have a similar issue with the detour designation letter not reflective at all. Maybe the NYSTA got some bargain basement tape or something.

There are some older signs in Buffalo that are peeling pretty good but still more reflective than the new signs. Definitely a step backwards.

[cl94]

There are some older signs in Buffalo that are peeling pretty good but still more reflective than the new signs. Definitely a step backwards.

The new signs replaced most of those. The old signs that weren't replaced are between 54 and the Lackawanna toll plaza, some of which are being replaced as part of a NYSDOT contract.

[mrsman]

Well, technically for survey purposes (PLSS), the survey foot is (re)defined as 1200⁄3937 meters rather than 0.3048 meters. But the larger point stands.

In essence, the traditional units (which in some, but not all cases, correspond to the British imperial units) are just labels for certain quantities of metric units, just not arranged in convenient powers of 10 like the "official" ones.

But then again on the ground, even in "metricated" countries, in day-to-day life people regularly use similar labels; the local language equivalent of a "pound" is usually shorthand for 500g, for example (within 10% of the 454g mass of a U.S. pound), while the local word for "foot" is typically a metric length pretty close to whatever the country's pre-metric foot was. The center circle of an association football pitch is still 9.15m in radius - or ten yards, even in countries that never adopted imperial measures (the field itself may be an exact metric size, since FIFA allows variations in pitch size - which is how NYC FC can somehow play games in Yankee Stadium - but all the measured markings are based on imperial lengths). And you'll replace the imperial pint only after grabbing it from the cold, dead hands of the last Briton or Irishman.

The main problem with continuing to use the traditional system is in situations where conversions regularly come into play. I recently went to the hospital for a procedure and was happy to see they weighed me using the metric system - no risk of getting not enough anesthesia or drugs because someone forgot to multiply my weight by 2.2 when calculating the proper dose. Similarly, if you're designing a space probe, make everything metric or make none of it metric; otherwise, you'll learn the lesson of avoiding unnecessary conversions the hard way, as NASA once did.

Otherwise, a mix of hard and soft metric conversions is fine, either way; Canada still has 355 mL cans of soda, and somehow we gringos manage to survive without being confused too much by 16.9 oz bottles.

It would be nice if the customary units were redefined as being more standard.

For example, 1 quart = .946 liters.  Keep liters the same size, but increase the quart to be equal to the liter. 

The standard units would be slightly changed, but the conversions would be simpler.

[odditude]

It would be nice if the customary units were redefined as being more standard.

For example, 1 quart = .946 liters.  Keep liters the same size, but increase the quart to be equal to the liter. 

The standard units would be slightly changed, but the conversions would be simpler.

bakers around the world would crucify you.

baking is as much science as it is art; correct proportions of ingredients are critical.