The Clearview thread

[marleythedog]

Anyone seen new FHWA installs in Ohio yet? Last I heard was a Columbus Dispatch article in March saying that ODOT was going to burn up its supply of Clearview letters before switching back. Driving through the almost-finished I-75 Dayton construction I noticed the just hung signs are still Clearview, but interestingly some of them have FHWA exit tabs.

[wxfree]

TxDOT's latest highway plans, for August contracts, call for new signs in Clearview.  I don't know if they're just ignoring the rescission or if they're using up the rest of whatever license they have.  They were quick to adopt the change, and don't seem to be eager to stop.

[cl94]

TxDOT's latest highway plans, for August contracts, call for new signs in Clearview.  I don't know if they're just ignoring the rescission or if they're using up the rest of whatever license they have.  They were quick to adopt the change, and don't seem to be eager to stop.

TxDOT was one of the agencies that funded the initial research. Of course they're going to be one of the last ones to switch back, especially because their money went into it.

[Pink Jazz]

Texas has its own state MUTCD.  I understand that state MUTCDs have to be in substantial compliance with the national MUTCD, however, is the FHWA really going to punish TxDOT for choosing to use Clearview since they have a manual of their own?

[cl94]

Texas has its own state MUTCD.  I understand that state MUTCDs have to be in substantial compliance with the national MUTCD, however, is the FHWA really going to punish TxDOT for choosing to use Clearview since they have a manual of their own?

IINM, font is not an item that is negotiable. The different manuals are mainly for state-specific layouts and signs. Items banned in an edition of the MUTCD must be banned by the state in their next revision, which must take place within a couple of years. Take Ohio, for example. Before "dancing arrows" were explicitly banned, their state MUTCD included layouts for them and usage standards. Since the ban, Ohio's MUTCD differs little from the national manual, as this entire section was removed from the manual. If FHWA didn't force them to change, I doubt ODOT would have "officially adopded" APLs for option lanes.

[jakeroot]

Texas has its own state MUTCD.  I understand that state MUTCDs have to be in substantial compliance with the national MUTCD, however, is the FHWA really going to punish TxDOT for choosing to use Clearview since they have a manual of their own?

IINM, font is not an item that is negotiable. The different manuals are mainly for state-specific layouts and signs. Items banned in an edition of the MUTCD must be banned by the state in their next revision, which must take place within a couple of years. Take Ohio, for example. Before "dancing arrows" were explicitly banned, their state MUTCD included layouts for them and usage standards. Since the ban, Ohio's MUTCD differs little from the national manual, as this entire section was removed from the manual. If FHWA didn't force them to change, I doubt ODOT would have "officially adopded" APLs for option lanes.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into your comment, but the ban on dancing arrows isn't exactly the same thing. Clearview was never in the MUTCD (I'm not sure if Texas explicitly mandates the use of Clearview in their manual anyways). The FHWA might have more success in ridding the country of Clearview if they explicitly forbid the use of Clearview in the federal manual, and then made that section non-negotiable.

That said, we're talking about two fantastic typefaces. I don't think the FHWA is going to bring the banhammer down on any highway agency anytime soon.

[seicer]

There are plenty of new Clearview signs being installed in other areas of Ohio too. If they truly are burning through their reserve of letters - which was specifically noted back in March (as noted above too), then they would have run out by now. Other states, like Kentucky and West Virginia, are still installing new Clearview signs. And cities...

[J N Winkler]

The past two major revisions of the TxMUTCD appeared in 2006 and 2011.  Only the 2006 manual explicitly uses the word Clearview and it appears only in the freeway/expressway guide sign chapter (Chapter 2E).  The 2011 edition, now in its second revision, is still current and does not use the word Clearview, but the vast majority of the guide sign art is copied from the 2009 federal MUTCD and all of it has its legend re-drawn to use positive-contrast Clearview in the contexts in which it is typically used in Texas, i.e., for numbers and "small caps" legend as well as primary destination legend.

I think the main obstacle to TxDOT converting back to the FHWA Series for positive-contrast guide-signing applications is a lack of standards.  It is actually the SHSD (TxDOT's SHSM equivalent), not the TxMUTCD, that has guide sign layouts--the TxMUTCD only has high-level advice--and the last edition of SHSD to use the FHWA Series for guide signs (1981, I think) specifies all-uppercase legend for conventional-road guide signs, which MUTCD 2009 no longer permits.

Notwithstanding the effective date of FHWA's withdrawal of Clearview approval, I don't think TxDOT will begin moving away from Clearview until there is a revised edition of SHSD that shows clearly how to lay out mixed-case FHWA legend on conventional-road guide signs.

There is also some past history to keep in mind.

*  FHWA did not actually grant interim approval for Clearview until September 2004.  TxDOT first put online plans sets for freeway guide sign rehabilitations that called for Clearview (sign panel detail sheets drawn using Series E Modified but with "Use Expressway Clearview instead" stamped on each sheet) as early as the August 2002 letting.  By the July 2003 letting, it was uploading construction plans sets for freeway projects that actually displayed Clearview on the sign panel detail sheets.  However, the edition of SHSD that actually showed Clearview for conventional-road guide signs did not come out until October 2003, almost a full year before FHWA interim approval was granted, and I am fairly sure it was at that point that plans sets started coming out with conventional-road guide signs that used Clearview.

*  In 2003, HCTRA was building the Westpark Tollway, its first ETC-only toll road, and approached FHWA for permission to use purple instead of green background for the guide signs.  FHWA denied it, saying that usage of purple should be confined to patches relating specifically to electronic tolling (a policy that has since been made explicit in the MUTCD).  HCTRA went ahead and erected purple-background guide signs anyway.  TxDOT was at the time also reconstructing and expanding the Katy Freeway (I-10 west of Houston) and a share of the added capacity was to be a HCTRA-administered toll freeway known as the Katy Tollway.  The signing sheets in the original TxDOT letting plans called for it to have purple-background guide signs.  This signing concept was abandoned later only when TxDOT and HCTRA agreed to brand the toll lanes as I-10 express lanes instead of as a tollway.



Owing to other demands on my time, I have had to quit separating out sign panel detail sheets for many state DOTs, including TxDOT, and am not taking on any other state DOTs that have recently started putting construction plans online, like Arizona DOT.  I do still download the plans sets for archiving and sample them on occasion.  ADOT has recently uploaded plans for a freeway guide sign replacement on Loop 101 (H834101C) and it has numerous signs that still use Clearview, as well as signs reflecting its new policy (described by Pink Jazz upthread, I think) of using Series E rather than Series E Modified for primary destination legend (yuck).

[Pink Jazz]

There are plenty of new Clearview signs being installed in other areas of Ohio too. If they truly are burning through their reserve of letters - which was specifically noted back in March (as noted above too), then they would have run out by now. Other states, like Kentucky and West Virginia, are still installing new Clearview signs. And cities...

Some cities here in the Phoenix area have gotten the memo.  According to an email that I got from the City of Mesa (one of the first cities in the Phoenix area to use Clearview), they have dropped Clearview in favor of FHWA for new signage.  I have also noticed some new signage in FHWA in Gilbert as well.

[hbelkins]

Anyone seen new FHWA installs in Ohio yet? Last I heard was a Columbus Dispatch article in March saying that ODOT was going to burn up its supply of Clearview letters before switching back. Driving through the almost-finished I-75 Dayton construction I noticed the just hung signs are still Clearview, but interestingly some of them have FHWA exit tabs.

According to the anal-retentive FHWA guidelines, Clearview was never supposed to be used in exit tabs anyway, because they are all caps and numbers.

[cl94]

Anyone seen new FHWA installs in Ohio yet? Last I heard was a Columbus Dispatch article in March saying that ODOT was going to burn up its supply of Clearview letters before switching back. Driving through the almost-finished I-75 Dayton construction I noticed the just hung signs are still Clearview, but interestingly some of them have FHWA exit tabs.

According to the anal-retentive FHWA guidelines, Clearview was never supposed to be used in exit tabs anyway, because they are all caps and numbers.

Correct. Of course, that didn't stop NYSTA and other agencies from doing tabs and shields in Clearview. Plenty of Clearview shields in the Buffalo area. Count all of the things that are wrong with New York's first set of APLs.

There are plenty of new Clearview signs being installed in other areas of Ohio too. If they truly are burning through their reserve of letters - which was specifically noted back in March (as noted above too), then they would have run out by now. Other states, like Kentucky and West Virginia, are still installing new Clearview signs. And cities...

Some cities here in the Phoenix area have gotten the memo.  According to an email that I got from the City of Mesa (one of the first cities in the Phoenix area to use Clearview), they have dropped Clearview in favor of FHWA for new signage.  I have also noticed some new signage in FHWA in Gilbert as well.

Saratoga County and Saratoga Springs are still installing Clearview street blades. Other than NYSTA, they were some of the only (if not the only) Upstate agencies to adopt the font. If the new watershed signs and last year's I-190 signs are any indication, NYSTA has switched back.

[jakeroot]

Count all of the things that are wrong with New York's first set of APLs.

That looks like something straight out of British Columbia. The arrow is a little different and the sign is round, but other than those things, it's a dead-ringer.

[machias]

Saratoga County and Saratoga Springs are still installing Clearview street blades. Other than NYSTA, they were some of the only (if not the only) Upstate agencies to adopt the font. If the new watershed signs and last year's I-190 signs are any indication, NYSTA has switched back.

The NYSTA has definitely switched back to FHWA. Any Clearview signs installed this late in the game were already manufactured before the change took place. I have confirmation in an email that they have stopped using Clearview. Interestingly, I believe the decision was made before the mandate came down in February as the Thruway Authority received a number of complaints about the new Clearview signs along the mainline in Buffalo (and I only sent them one email on the subject).  I've been told some of those signs are being replaced in upcoming construction projects using FHWA lettering.

Edit: fixed a couple of typos

[paulthemapguy]

Overall, whatever backlogged signs sitting in agencies' sign shops will still most likely be installed, because they aren't going to waste money by scrapping what they've already made.  If anything, the timing of the switch from Clearview back to FHWA might show just how much signage an agency leaves on their backlog before actual installation.  Or how slow an agency is at keeping up with the latest news...

[ethanhopkin14]

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.0476832,-97.3387713,3a,15y,166.7h,86.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-JlbfmCMAHo-iXVJ4FHFIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Funny, ironic or a coincidence?

[MisterSG1]

Texas has its own state MUTCD.  I understand that state MUTCDs have to be in substantial compliance with the national MUTCD, however, is the FHWA really going to punish TxDOT for choosing to use Clearview since they have a manual of their own?

IINM, font is not an item that is negotiable. The different manuals are mainly for state-specific layouts and signs. Items banned in an edition of the MUTCD must be banned by the state in their next revision, which must take place within a couple of years. Take Ohio, for example. Before "dancing arrows" were explicitly banned, their state MUTCD included layouts for them and usage standards. Since the ban, Ohio's MUTCD differs little from the national manual, as this entire section was removed from the manual. If FHWA didn't force them to change, I doubt ODOT would have "officially adopded" APLs for option lanes.

I know this is slightly off topic now, but is this what you are referring to when you speak of "dancing arrows" I just want to be sure, such as this spot at Pearson Airport

[MisterSG1]

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.0476832,-97.3387713,3a,15y,166.7h,86.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-JlbfmCMAHo-iXVJ4FHFIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Funny, ironic or a coincidence?

Haha, nice, I had a chuckle to myself once when doing an uber run and discovering this street in the City of Toronto in that infamous font.

[wxfree]

Reading the current Forum Status thread, I learned about the different theme options.  I'm replying here so to stay on-topic.  Years ago, I'd explore all of the options and pages of a web site, but I stopped doing that because it usually isn't very interesting.  I'd never looked at the different themes to see the Clearview option.  I'd never heard of or thought about sign typefaces until I started on this forum.  Here in Texas, I didn't notice the change when it happened.  My road interest never included that particular facet.  I always thought it was rather silly how anti-Clearview some people were.  To me it's just another way of writing all the same letters and the fact that it's new shouldn't be taken to mean it's bad (which happens a lot, especially with older people).  But seeing a full page of text in Clearview makes me realize, Holy Cow! it's ugly.  I guess a few words on a sign wasn't enough to make that impression, but that preview page did it.

I'm a new anti-Clearview convert.  Obviously, I'm addressing the aesthetics and not matters of legibility, but if legibility benefits from going back to older styles, I'm all for doing it as soon as possible.

[ethanhopkin14]

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.0476832,-97.3387713,3a,15y,166.7h,86.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-JlbfmCMAHo-iXVJ4FHFIg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Funny, ironic or a coincidence?

Haha, nice, I had a chuckle to myself once when doing an uber run and discovering this street in the City of Toronto in that infamous font.

Hahaha

Now, the Clearview exit:

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.998761,-90.1780827,3a,17.9y,282.06h,98.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srwV-2NGwb8G6eFGPcgqlZg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

[7/8]

Now, the Clearview exit:

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.998761,-90.1780827,3a,17.9y,282.06h,98.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srwV-2NGwb8G6eFGPcgqlZg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

The fact that the sign beside it is in FHWA makes it that much better

Kitchener-Waterloo tends to use Clearview on street blades, especially the big ones beside traffic lights (like the first photo below):

[7/8]

I'm not sure if there's a better thread to put this in (I tried searching), but I figured the people reading this thread know their fonts

Do you know what fonts these two signs are?

Pinery Trail and Springwater Dr, Waterloo. This font is quite common for residential streets, though newer subdivisions are using Clearview, shown in my previous post.


And this sign at Waterloo City Hall

[Scott5114]

The first one is Helvetica Bold.

The second is FHWA Series D that has been horizontally compressed.

[1995hoo]

As we all know, Clearview is seldom seen in Florida except on OOCEA roads. I was rather surprised this morning to see Clearview mileposts, complete with Clearview numerals and all-caps "MILE" and "NORTH," on the Sawgrass Expressway (although the "869" in the shields weren't Clearview). I've seen enough Clearview numerals on signs in Virginia to recognize what certainly looked like them. Seemed really odd to see it in use on mileposts when there was no other Clearview in the area.

[epzik8]

I caught a Clearview sign being installed yesterday eastbound on the Pennsylvania Turnpike on approach to the Susquehanna River bridge; this is in between the Harrisburg West and Harrisburg East interchanges. The Highway Gothic sign was still up.

[Quillz]

Weird how the shield on the right uses Series B, the one on the left uses Series D. Gotta love (lack) of consistency.