Minor things that bother you

[vdeane]

* This got me thinking, another one adjacent to "hesitancy to pass" is "hesitancy to change lanes". The ability to quickly and confidently change lanes is, to me, an extremely integral part of the driving experience. It was one of the first driving "techniques" I worked to master, and now it's just as much second nature as switching between accelerator and brake pedal. Yet so many drivers appear hesitant to do it or incapable of doing it fluidly so they remain "stuck" in a slow lane, or driving slower than necessary with their blinker on waiting for someone to "let them in", to the point where it's arguably a significant contributor to congestion on major freeways.

I like to think that the most efficient driving experience strikes the right balance between safety and assertiveness. Obviously, using your mirror(s) and blinker(s) when changing lanes is of utmost importance, but beyond that, just trusting your judgment and avoid personalizing your interactions with other drivers goes a long ways towards becoming comfortable with regular lane changes.

Yes, this.  I've lost track of the number of times I've been in the middle lane passing someone with someone on my tail wanting to pass me, yet they don't until I move back over despite there being a wide open left lane that they could have used at any time.  Further, this contributes to people not keeping right except to pass, because they don't want to potentially have to move over at interchanges, so they just move to the middle when they get on and don't leave it until they get off.  It's also an annoyance when riding with someone else driving, knowing that I would have gotten past some slow traffic already.

Overall, I think it's driven from a desire to minimize the amount of traffic one has to pay attention to.  It's much simply to just follow the car in front of you than it is to evaluate all the cars in all lanes of the road half a mile in each direction, even though the latter is what everyone really should be doing.  A lot of people seem to be intimidated by freeway driving, too.  I don't really get it, but then I've developed an intuitive feel for traffic over the years.  Most people don't seem to have done so.

[jeffandnicole]

In the same vein, cars that approach a red light where there's enough room for two lanes, and they stop directly in the middle.  It's bad enough when they're blocking vehicles from turning right, it's worse when the light turns green and they put on their left turn signal.  Now they failed to put their signal on before approaching the light, they failed to keep to the left of the lane, and they're blocking traffic.

This is a situation I'm not as familiar with. Would this be where a road has been widened on approach to an intersection to allow two lanes, but not striped for two lanes? This is not normally done in NY - there's usually striping one way or another whether it's for two lanes or one lane and a wide shoulder.

Take this street for example:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/VmFfB79UUQSWkzRZ8 .  While GSV will distort the width a little, it's wide enough for two lanes. The left/thru cars usually are to the left, close to the double yellow, like the car shown.  Right turning cars would be close to the curb, and will turn right when safe to do so.  But you can see the car that's going thru the intersection - they appear to have been directly in the middle of the lane, which would have prevented right turning vehicles from turning right.

An even better example is here, on this one-way street at a traffic light:

2011: https://maps.app.goo.gl/8SoU8HkviH49Jh62A  There are 3 distinct lanes, left, thru and right.

2022: https://maps.app.goo.gl/2KCRivo9c9KSZSaZ8  After a repaving project, they never repainted the lines.  Now vehicles stop wherever they want, regardless of the movement they'll make next.  It's not uncommon to see left turning vehicles towards the right on this one way road, preventing right turners from turning right and left turners that want to keep left have to be careful the right-sided left turner won't turn into them. 

This is also a jersey-style split-phase light here; there's no indication this side has the right of way when the opposing direction has the red light.

Hesitancy or outright unwillingness to pass cops, even when they're traveling at or below the speed limit.

The cost-benefit analysis in this situation, for me at least, is that a bit of slowdown for a while is preferable to a ticket.

As long as you're behind the cop and not blocking the other lane, then all is good here.  All too often there'll be someone in the left/center lanes not passing when a cop is below the speed limit, even when they're from another jurisdiction...or heck, another state!

[webny99]

If it is illegal to use the shoulder to pass in a given state, then it doesn't matter whether "most people" do it—you have no reason to expect that someone should do it or to get upset when that person doesn't do it.

To my earlier point about the rigidity of US driving culture... I don't find it any more upsetting than someone driving the speed limit when said limit is set egregiously low, but I might consider something unconventional, such as using a turn lane or accel/decel lane to pass, or in the case of not using the shoulder, passing them as well as the turning vehicle.

[webny99]

* This got me thinking, another one adjacent to "hesitancy to pass" is "hesitancy to change lanes". ...

... 
It's also an annoyance when riding with someone else driving, knowing that I would have gotten past some slow traffic already.

Yes, I was thinking about that as well. I just have to remind myself at times not to set my expectations so high. One particular instance stands out in my mind where there was major freeway congestion that ended up being due to a stalled vehicle in the middle lane. I would have bailed to the parallel service road as soon as possible, but the driver sat it out in the left lane. When we finally reached the incident, sure enough, traffic from the service road entrance was flowing past the incident, slowly, but moving along. I estimate we wasted 10 minutes or more.

  A lot of people seem to be intimidated by freeway driving, too.

That's another one I don't understand. I actually prefer freeway driving myself. I find it both more intuitive and more relaxing than surface street driving.

[1995hoo]

My wife seems to HATE it when I pass on a two-lane road, no matter how safe it is to do so.

[webny99]

2022: https://maps.app.goo.gl/2KCRivo9c9KSZSaZ8  After a repaving project, they never repainted the lines.  Now vehicles stop wherever they want, regardless of the movement they'll make next.  It's not uncommon to see left turning vehicles towards the right on this one way road, preventing right turners from turning right and left turners that want to keep left have to be careful the right-sided left turner won't turn into them. 

This is also a jersey-style split-phase light here; there's no indication this side has the right of way when the opposing direction has the red light.

Wow, that is egregious and I can certainly see how it becomes a free for all with no lines. It might even be worth contacting the city or whatever jurisdiction is responsible to paint the lines.

[webny99]

What are shoulders normally like in your area? I'm talking about shoulders that are easily wide enough to pass, like this, or this, where the shoulder has been specifically widened to allow passing. It does depend on the context, but if the shoulder is the width of a vehicle or greater, I see no reason not to use it and wouldn't even consider coming to a complete stop behind a left turning vehicle.

I live in a pretty urban area, so shoulders are pretty much nonexistent. That said, at least in my view, the width doesn't matter, in that the shoulder is not for driving, and so I don't drive on it.

My instinctive response was going to be "... that's what I mean about rigidity."

But, on further thought, this might be kind of an urban vs. suburban/rural thing in general. Shoulders in urban areas are more commonly used for parking, bus stops, and other forms of transportation such as bikes, while that's not so in many suburban/rural areas.

That being said, I am not comfortable with a blanket statement of "shoulders should always be used if they're wide enough", but also strongly disagree that "shoulders should never be driven on"... after all, how would anyone on a road with a shoulder turn into their driveway? The fact that shoulders can vary in width from inches to the width of a travel lane, in addition to varying styles, such as flat, gutter style, curb style, etc.. is proof that it depends on the context.

[jakeroot]

As long as we're talking about a driving, I have a couple from my time in Japan.

Where I live in Japan, there is a lot of Americans too. Generally speaking, both American and Japanese drivers here are quite good, but there are two things that Americans sometimes do that irritate the hell out of me:

* stopping way too early on yellow
* waiting behind the line when turning across traffic (right turns here)

For the first, obviously entering on red isn't "legal", but it's expected to some degree, because stopping on yellow isn't generally done. Americans though, I guess from training in the US, sometimes stop way too early on yellow. I've seen a few close-calls from drivers who nearly rear-end someone because they expect them to keep moving, but then they stop. Invariably, it's almost always an American (we have unique license plates, by the way).

For the second, you always wait to turn right from the middle of the intersection in Japan. At the beginning of the cycle, the light turns green, and you pull out to the middle and wait for a gap. If there is no gap, you can go at the end when the right-turn green arrow comes up. In some cases (not commonly, thankfully), Americans will wait behind the stop line rather than pulling up to the waiting line (a second line in the middle of the intersection that tells you where to position while waiting). I think they do this because (a) they may be from one of those states where drivers are taught to wait behind the stop line, or (b) they know they will get a green arrow at the end. The issue with (b) is that by pulling into the intersection, even if there is no gap, it still allows two, three, maybe even four or five cars (double that if there are two right turn lanes) to "load up" while they wait. When the green arrow comes on at the end, those drivers are halfway done with their turn, allowing them and everyone else still waiting behind the line to go. If you wait behind the line, that's a lot of cars that will now miss the light because of all that unused space in the intersection. Since green arrows seem to last an average of around 6 seconds, it's really imperative to pull forward while waiting.

[ZLoth]

You have to love putting some items on your CamelCamelCamel price tracker on Amazon in preparation for the Fall Amazon Prime days/Thanksgiving sales... in this case, a Solidigm™ P44 Pro Series 2TB PCIe GEN 4 NVMe drive. Two days later, the price jumps from $110 (a best price) to $155. Yes, I do realize that the delivery date went from near the end of October to unknown, so maybe that's part of the reason. It should be noted that the highest Amazon price was $337.00 back in January which was higher than when the product was sold during the holidays (dare I suggest $220-$230). At least it's under the category of "nice to have", not "must have", as I was targeting a price under $100, but it is still a bit irritating.

[kphoger]

Blocking the right lane at a red light when the left lane is open

"Blocking"?  How do you know that driver isn't planning to make a right turn a half-block after the stoplight?  Besides which, I keep right except to pass as a general rule;  what do you expect me to do? change lanes every time I see a red light? and then be in the way of a faster driver behind me when the light turns green?

This is one where I recognize that my personal bar for efficiency is a lot higher than most other drivers, and I'm OK with that. In this case, I would say that, as long as I can see (and therefore monitor) the light on the cross street and am aware of any protected phases, I'm confident in my ability to easily get in front of anyone in the right lane and move right in time to make the turn, and I would rather do that than inconvenience someone behind me waiting to turn right.

Well then, your driving is something that bothers me:

When someone who is planning to make a right turn shortly after the stoplight uses the left lane, then zooms ahead of me when it turns green, and changes into the right lane for their turn, forcing me to step on my brakes.  I see this as an example of "cutting me off".

[mgk920]

I don't know how 'minor' this thought is, but the ongoing product 'shrinkflation' is really starting to get to me.  Beside some bars in the area now serving beer in smaller glasses, a recent rip to the grocery store revealed that tubes af (a well known major brand of) toothpaste are now about 2/3rds the size that they were the last time that I bought some, but the at same prices as before.   Grrrr...   

Mike

[webny99]

This is one where I recognize that my personal bar for efficiency is a lot higher than most other drivers, and I'm OK with that. In this case, I would say that, as long as I can see (and therefore monitor) the light on the cross street and am aware of any protected phases, I'm confident in my ability to easily get in front of anyone in the right lane and move right in time to make the turn, and I would rather do that than inconvenience someone behind me waiting to turn right.

Well then, your driving is something that bothers me:

When someone who is planning to make a right turn shortly after the stoplight uses the left lane, then zooms ahead of me when it turns green, and changes into the right lane for their turn, forcing me to step on my brakes.  I see this as an example of "cutting me off".

Actually, I can't think of very many situations where I would move left to accommodate right turning traffic, and then proceed to turn right myself in the next ~half a mile or less. These aren't very common occurrences to begin with, and most of the time I'd either be going straight for a while or eventually turning left anyways and just choose to leave the right lane open.

To illustrate how context-dependent this is, there's even one location where, knowing that a very high percentage of traffic turns right, and knowing that most traffic going straight uses the left lane for an upcoming left turn, I've been known to pull up behind a string of cars in the left lane, wait for all visible traffic in the right lane to pass and turn right on red, and then move over to the right lane.. hopefully just in time for the light to change. 

[1995hoo]

One place where I will stop at the light in the right lane is at the location seen below. Very few people make right turns there, yet the overwhelming number of people going straight tend to get in the left lane of the two straight-thru lanes, presumably because the right lane ends up ahead where that USPS truck is visible under the traffic lights. That's one light where I almost always use the right lane because I'll almost always be first on line, I watch the other light to see when it's about to change, and I know I can get off the line quickly enough to be ahead of everyone when it turns. So I see no reason to wait on line behind six or seven other cars (invariably involving at least one person reading a phone instead of watching the light) just to leave the right lane open for a hypothetical right-turner who probably won't materialize.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/FNTrkg2V6J3xmiFB6

[kphoger]

Blocking the right lane at a red light when the left lane is open

I can't think of very many situations where I would move left to accommodate right turning traffic, and then proceed to turn right myself in the next ~half a mile or less.

So, again, I ask you:

How do you know that driver [whose "blocking the right lane" bothers you] isn't planning to make a right turn a half-block after the stoplight?

And I still want to know:

I keep right except to pass as a general rule;  what do you expect me to do? change lanes every time I see a red light?

[kphoger]

One place where I will stop at the light in the right lane is at the location seen below. Very few people make right turns there, yet the overwhelming number of people going straight tend to get in the left lane of the two straight-thru lanes, presumably because the right lane ends up ahead where that USPS truck is visible under the traffic lights. That's one light where I almost always use the right lane because I'll almost always be first on line, I watch the other light to see when it's about to change, and I know I can get off the line quickly enough to be ahead of everyone when it turns. So I see no reason to wait on line behind six or seven other cars (invariably involving at least one person reading a phone instead of watching the light) just to leave the right lane open for a hypothetical right-turner who probably won't materialize.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/FNTrkg2V6J3xmiFB6

That seems to be quite common in situations where the right lane ends not too far past the stoplight.  Most people don't use that lane, presumably because they either (a) don't want to have to merge their way into the lane where everyone else is, or (b) think it's rude to do so anyway.  And sometimes "not too far past" means a half-mile.

[webny99]

One place where I will stop at the light in the right lane is at the location seen below. Very few people make right turns there, yet the overwhelming number of people going straight tend to get in the left lane of the two straight-thru lanes, presumably because the right lane ends up ahead where that USPS truck is visible under the traffic lights. That's one light where I almost always use the right lane because I'll almost always be first on line, I watch the other light to see when it's about to change, and I know I can get off the line quickly enough to be ahead of everyone when it turns. So I see no reason to wait on line behind six or seven other cars (invariably involving at least one person reading a phone instead of watching the light) just to leave the right lane open for a hypothetical right-turner who probably won't materialize.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/FNTrkg2V6J3xmiFB6

There is an extremely similar situation on my commute, and I always take the right lane, even if there's just one or two cars and occasionally even if there's no cars in the left lane, just for fun. I can reliably get a good headstart on the vehicle on the left, which is important as it can make the difference of whether I make the next light or not. The only time I've ever been beat was by a Tesla who then proceeded to drive very slowly... and that did incense me greatly.

In this case though, right turning vehicles are a complete non-factor since the crossroad is a one-way ramp.

[webny99]

So, again, I ask you:

How do you know that driver [whose "blocking the right lane" bothers you] isn't planning to make a right turn a half-block after the stoplight?

The short answer is: I don't. I guess I'm not bothered by that drivers' presence so much as the lack of a shoulder that would allow right turn on red (occasionally dictated by ROW constraints, but often not).

And I still want to know:

I keep right except to pass as a general rule;  what do you expect me to do? change lanes every time I see a red light?

KRETP can only be loosely applied to urban/suburban arterials IMO. It's more practical on long-distance/rural highways that are either divided or have a TWLTL. I also find that, if traffic is heavy, the left lane is often preferable anyways because right turning traffic can slow the right lane down. So no, I don't expect you to move left for every red light but if both lanes are open and the person behind you has their blinker on, then sure. But again, it depends on the context, and that's also true for whether or not and to what degree I'm bothered by it.

[kphoger]

... if both lanes are open and the person behind you has their blinker on, then sure.

Very rarely does the person behind me already have his blinker on early enough that it's still reasonable for me to react accordingly and change lanes.

[1995hoo]

One place where I will stop at the light in the right lane is at the location seen below. Very few people make right turns there, yet the overwhelming number of people going straight tend to get in the left lane of the two straight-thru lanes, presumably because the right lane ends up ahead where that USPS truck is visible under the traffic lights. That's one light where I almost always use the right lane because I'll almost always be first on line, I watch the other light to see when it's about to change, and I know I can get off the line quickly enough to be ahead of everyone when it turns. So I see no reason to wait on line behind six or seven other cars (invariably involving at least one person reading a phone instead of watching the light) just to leave the right lane open for a hypothetical right-turner who probably won't materialize.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/FNTrkg2V6J3xmiFB6

There is an extremely similar situation on my commute, and I always take the right lane, even if there's just one or two cars and occasionally even if there's no cars in the left lane, just for fun. I can reliably get a good headstart on the vehicle on the left, which is important as it can make the difference of whether I make the next light or not. The only time I've ever been beat was by a Tesla who then proceeded to drive very slowly... and that did incense me greatly.

In this case though, right turning vehicles are a complete non-factor since the crossroad is a one-way ramp.

Heh. The speed limit on the road seen in the Street View image I linked is 35 mph. On the portion up ahead in that image after the median ends (in that image, the median ends roughly where the USPS truck is and the road narrows to a single lane in each direction plus a bike lane in each direction), I pretty much always set my cruise control at 35 mph.

[tmoore952]

 

A lot of people seem to be intimidated by freeway driving, too.  I don't really get it, but then I've developed an intuitive feel for traffic over the years.  Most people don't seem to have done so.

Freeway driving in rural areas is a lot different than freeway driving in urban areas. I've been driving for over 40 years. I thought I had "developed an intuitive feel for traffic over the years", but the last couple years have proven otherwise.

It's very difficult to drive on the west side of the DC beltway when traffic is going at about 65 (more or less), with every lane having a car just about everywhere, and then there are people who decide to drive 85 and change lanes without signaling and also doing so coming "awfully" close to your car. I think this happens because traffic is opening up and some people are in a hurry, and they just decide their needs are more important than others (collectively), and yours personally. I call it "selfish" driving. The problem is -- when people are changing lanes like that, it scares the living daylights out of me since you don't know what they are going to do next. To reference an earlier post, even when you change lanes confidently, you always seem to be getting right in the way of someone who is going way too fast for the conditions, and driving as I mention earlier in this paragraph.

On top of that, the pandemic just seemed to exacerbate these behaviors. It feels worse now than it did pre-pandemic. I guess everyone got used to having a normally-45 minute trip get done in 30 minutes or less.

I am so looking forward to the day in a few years when I no longer have to commute to my job (for which I do not have work-at-home options).

[webny99]

There is an extremely similar situation on my commute, and I always take the right lane, even if there's just one or two cars and occasionally even if there's no cars in the left lane, just for fun. I can reliably get a good headstart on the vehicle on the left, which is important as it can make the difference of whether I make the next light or not. The only time I've ever been beat was by a Tesla who then proceeded to drive very slowly... and that did incense me greatly.

In this case though, right turning vehicles are a complete non-factor since the crossroad is a one-way ramp.

Heh. The speed limit on the road seen in the Street View image I linked is 35 mph. On the portion up ahead in that image after the median ends (in that image, the median ends roughly where the USPS truck is and the road narrows to a single lane in each direction plus a bike lane in each direction), I pretty much always set my cruise control at 35 mph.

The road I refer to is 35 mph as well, but not all 35 mph zones are created equal. It's more of a main thoroughfare and much straighter than your example; I would consider 35 mph a borderline obstruction to traffic and usually settle around 50 mph.

Even so, I rarely set the cruise on that road, or really any other non-freeway/expressway. I don't think I've ever even tried to set the cruise below 40 mph. Given how 35 mph zones are abused around here, it would have to be in a 30 mph zone, and I can't think of any in which it would last long enough without being interrupted by a vehicle, red light, stop sign, or otherwise to be "worth it", for which my bar would be at least a mile or two.

[SectorZ]

I have one to add, since I've heard it a few times in the past few days on XM because the 80's station's AT40 replay is this week from 1983... "Lawyers in Love" by Jackson Browne. Hearing that song, since I've been 5 years old, has not made a day better for me.

[webny99]

Freeway driving in rural areas is a lot different than freeway driving in urban areas. I've been driving for over 40 years. I thought I had "developed an intuitive feel for traffic over the years", but the last couple years have proven otherwise.

It's very difficult to drive on the west side of the DC beltway when traffic is going at about 65 (more or less), with every lane having a car just about everywhere, and then there are people who decide to drive 85 and change lanes without signaling and also doing so coming "awfully" close to your car. I think this happens because traffic is opening up and some people are in a hurry, and they just decide their needs are more important than others (collectively), and yours personally. I call it "selfish" driving. The problem is -- when people are changing lanes like that, it scares the living daylights out of me since you don't know what they are going to do next. To reference an earlier post, even when you change lanes confidently, you always seem to be getting right in the way of someone who is going way too fast for the conditions, and driving as I mention earlier in this paragraph.

This is definitely an urban-vs-rural thing, but it might also just be a "number of lanes" thing in general. It seems like once you get to eight lanes or more, weaving is much more common than it is on four- or six- lane highways because there's so much traffic that KRETP doesn't apply as much, more traffic hangs out in the middle lanes and it's likely there will be an open lane somewhere if you weave around fast enough and for long enough to find it.

That's why, for as much as I wish select segments were wider, I am very glad that the Rochester area and upstate NY in general doesn't have many 8+ lane freeways, in fact basically none if you're talking significant distance. Six lanes I can handle; it's condensed enough that weaving is unlikely to get ahead much, there's a general expectation that KRETP should apply, and slower traffic will most often be on the right. But eight or more lanes? No thank you.

[1995hoo]

There is an extremely similar situation on my commute, and I always take the right lane, even if there's just one or two cars and occasionally even if there's no cars in the left lane, just for fun. I can reliably get a good headstart on the vehicle on the left, which is important as it can make the difference of whether I make the next light or not. The only time I've ever been beat was by a Tesla who then proceeded to drive very slowly... and that did incense me greatly.

In this case though, right turning vehicles are a complete non-factor since the crossroad is a one-way ramp.

Heh. The speed limit on the road seen in the Street View image I linked is 35 mph. On the portion up ahead in that image after the median ends (in that image, the median ends roughly where the USPS truck is and the road narrows to a single lane in each direction plus a bike lane in each direction), I pretty much always set my cruise control at 35 mph.

The road I refer to is 35 mph as well, but not all 35 mph zones are created equal. It's more of a main thoroughfare and much straighter than your example; I would consider 35 mph a borderline obstruction to traffic and usually settle around 50 mph.

Even so, I rarely set the cruise on that road, or really any other non-freeway/expressway. I don't think I've ever even tried to set the cruise below 40 mph. Given how 35 mph zones are abused around here, it would have to be in a 30 mph zone, and I can't think of any in which it would last long enough without being interrupted by a vehicle, red light, stop sign, or otherwise to be "worth it", for which my bar would be at least a mile or two.

Heh. I almost always set the cruise control at 25 mph for the half-mile drive entering or leaving my neighborhood, mostly to keep my speed down and to avoid inadvertently speeding up when someone tailgates. There are enough little kids around that I'm not going to be the jerk flying along when a kid comes running out chasing a ball or some such. I also almost always use cruise control in school zones when the school zone speed limit is active, especially the ones with speed cameras.

[kkt]

I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but when the driver of the lead car at a red light is too busy on their phone or zoning out to notice that the light has turned green.