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Author Topic: New Jersey Turnpike  (Read 1149127 times)

famartin

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4850 on: March 15, 2023, 06:09:47 PM »

Itís a funny thing, the way people like some things but  donít like the side effectsÖ thereís side effects to every alternative, and fact of the matter is, thereís a reason why sprawl exists, traffic is bad, roads bring more traffic, public transit doesnít work, etcÖ Americans want big houses on leafy lots where traffic and taxes are low and their jobs are nearby so they can drive their car back and forth as they please. When they canít get all those (which is most of the time), they pick the options they most desire and suck up the restÖ
« Last Edit: March 15, 2023, 06:12:12 PM by famartin »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4851 on: March 15, 2023, 06:51:14 PM »

Ultimately, you choose where you live.  You choose where you work. 

I know it's not easy to get a complete package where one can live close to work, have a car if they so choose, have an affordable place to live, live comfortably, enjoy a job that pays a salary they're comfortable with, and every other variable that goes along with one's desires.

Sprawl is also part of life.  Without sprawl, everyone will live in skyscrapers in the city.  And sprawl will still exist - it will just be going up, not out.

When I read local Facebook groups of people complaining about sprawl in their towns, they were part of the problem at one point.  People living there before them were complaining about *them* moving in. 

So, unless people stop giving birth, moving out of their parents house, moving into the country, moving around, and otherwise transplanting elsewhere, building will continue to happen.  It ain't gonna stop.
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tckma

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4852 on: March 16, 2023, 10:48:34 AM »

Ultimately, you choose where you live.  You choose where you work. 

Yes and no.  If, when I was laid off in 2018, I chose to get a job in the area I lived in, I would have been unemployed for a lot longer.  Since I chose to take a job in the Philly area, I had to also "choose" to live in the Philly area.

When I read local Facebook groups of people complaining about sprawl in their towns, they were part of the problem at one point.  People living there before them were complaining about *them* moving in. 

Oh, my neighborhood Facebook group is full of this.  "Look at these apartments being built with inadequate parking."  I very often comment with something along the lines of, "Yeah, I mean, it's as if you live in a major city or something."  This tends to piss them off.  "Oh whine whine whine this used to be a safe neighborhood and suburban in quality."  It's STILL a safe neighborhood, and despite being in Philly, is STILL somewhat suburban.  If you want your detached SFHs and your lawns and your driveways, go move to the suburbs.  I won't stop you.

"Henry Avenue blah blah blah.  Ridge Avenue blah blah blah.  Green Lane Bridge blah blah blah."  I don't see what the problem is with Henry OR Ridge.  I'll give you that the Green Lane Bridge is woefully inadequate for the traffic capacity it carries, having been built in 1929 and being one lane in either direction that drivers MAKE into two lanes in either direction.  But there's not much that can be done about that unless PennDOT/Philly Streets Department/Lower Marion Township wants to build a second, parallel bridge across the Schuylkill.

Anyhow, this is off-topic, having nothing to do with the NJTP, so I'll shut up now.

famartin

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4853 on: March 16, 2023, 11:13:50 AM »

Itís in a cityís/countyís/stateís best interest to only build enough to make congestion tolerable. They donít want to spend more money on roads than they have to, because income is based more heavily on density.

NJTA is a bit different since income is based more directly on traffic volume.
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roadman65

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4854 on: March 18, 2023, 02:35:41 PM »

Sprawl though does need to be curbed though. Look at WY, for example. You will never see its population grow due to the rural areas never developing.

Iím not totally against development, but unplanned development I am against. Poinciana, FL, for example, is one that was built in the sticks and had no jobs available nearby. It was ( and still is) a bedroom community for Orlando over 25 miles away. However itís grown so much as itís sprawled out from its original core, more people have to commute to Orlando and now going through Kissimmee is a traffic nightmare because you must pass through it to get to and from Poinciana.  The other alternative is SR 535 in the Disney Area which also is maxed out due to both increased tourist as well as Poinciana residents commuting.

Just build in strategically placed parcels and allow right of way for potential future transit lines and build along it to entice folks to eventually move there if they know someday a rail line can be built to the city they work at.
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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4855 on: March 20, 2023, 08:07:37 PM »

I think the real issue was that Federal funding couldn't be used for such interchanges, but they could be built by the toll authorities using their own funding which is probably what New York did. I'm guessing that NJTA and PTC wouldn't use their own funding to connect to free Interstates only because they wanted drivers to stay on their toll road instead of using free roads. And who suffered for that? The general public who couldn't conveniently transit from the Pennsy Pike to I-95 or from the NJT to NJ 42/A.C. Expwy.

The NJTP has no direct connection to I-76/NJ-42/ACE (I count these as the same road because I've long thought the I-76 designation ought to extend down the ACE to Atlantic City), but it does have direct connections to I-195 (7A), I-287 (10), I-278 (13), I-78(14), and I-280 (15W).  I think this was more about not wanting drivers to take the parallel and toll-free I-295 through south Jersey (recall I-195 and I-295 did not have a direct connection between them until a few years ago).

The whole "no direct connection between the PA Turnpike and I-95/I-176/I-81/I-70/etc" thing appears to be uniquely a PTC thing.  Not sure why there are direct connections to I-83, I-283, and I-76 though.

(Also, I haven't been up that way in YEARS, but IIRC the NY Thruway does not have a direct connection to I-84.  I'd argue that the I-87/I-90 split up by Albany isn't REALLY a direct connection either, but you don't have to use surface streets.)

NYSTA improved the connections to 84 some years ago, so it's better than it used to be. PTC wouldn't do it because they would have had to foot the costs of the builds thanks to federal law, so they were content for all connections to be indirect. NJTA built their interchanges in the 50s, and 295 came later and NJTA saw no real need to change things.

Ohio too. There was no I-80/90 connection to I-75 for years.  Ditto for I-77 too.  Then they finally connected both to their Turnpike.

IL, kind of with I-294 to I-57. For years no connection, but now a partial one anyway.

Unofficially, the Ohio Turnpike's first direct link to an interstate was I-280 in Toledo.    However, in the mid 50s, that was only a state route (OH-120 or OH-420) at the time.  Then when the route north of the turnpike was renamed I-280,  it still was an expressway with multiple at-grade crossings until the 1980s.

Officially, when I-71 was completed in the late 60s in Cleveland, it immediately had a direct connection to the Turnpike via a new Exit 10 toll plaza.  What may have warranted that was because there was a temporary or a "TO I-90 West" routing from downtown Cleveland via I-71, and was signed as such until I-90 was completed west of Cleveland in the late 70s/early 80s.

Also was the case in the late 60's when the I-80/I-80S (I-76) swap out was completed in Youngstown via a new Exit 15 toll plaza).

The Easten terminus of I-480 (Exit 13) was always there because it was originally a non-freeway SR-14.

But it wasn't until the mid-70s when the Turnpike started making direct connections to other interstates, including  the completed I-90 West of Cleveland (Exit 8-A), I-480's Western terminus (Exit 9-A) and the southern terminus of I-680 (Exit 16-A).

I-75's (Exit 4-A) direct connection was completed in 1990, and the extended Exit 11 (SR-21) direct connection to I-77  in 1999.

The only Ohio Turnpike/freeway crossings that are still not directly-connected are I-475/US-23 in Toledo, SR-10 in North Ridgeville, and SR-11 near Youngstown.
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tckma

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4856 on: March 21, 2023, 09:13:23 AM »

Officially, when I-71 was completed in the late 60s in Cleveland, it immediately had a direct connection to the Turnpike via a new Exit 10 toll plaza.  What may have warranted that was because there was a temporary or a "TO I-90 West" routing from downtown Cleveland via I-71, and was signed as such until I-90 was completed west of Cleveland in the late 70s/early 80s.

Does the Ohio Turnpike still call exits "Gates?"  I distinctly remember using "Gate 10" to get to my grandparents' house in the Cleveland area (during the late 1980s and early-to-mid-1990s I think?) but I haven't been on the Ohio Turnpike since at least 2009.  I thought this was weird since everywhere else, including on toll roads, they were called "exits."

thenetwork

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4857 on: March 21, 2023, 06:01:16 PM »

Officially, when I-71 was completed in the late 60s in Cleveland, it immediately had a direct connection to the Turnpike via a new Exit 10 toll plaza.  What may have warranted that was because there was a temporary or a "TO I-90 West" routing from downtown Cleveland via I-71, and was signed as such until I-90 was completed west of Cleveland in the late 70s/early 80s.

Does the Ohio Turnpike still call exits "Gates?"  I distinctly remember using "Gate 10" to get to my grandparents' house in the Cleveland area (during the late 1980s and early-to-mid-1990s I think?) but I haven't been on the Ohio Turnpike since at least 2009.  I thought this was weird since everywhere else, including on toll roads, they were called "exits."

For all the time I lived withing 20 minutes from the Ohio Turnpike when they used the old numbering system, I always called them exits Kbecause that what the gore signs said at the Turnpike off ramps.  Exceptions were the Eastgate and Westgate toll plazas on either end. All other exit points were also called Toll Plazas.  Maps I've seen over the years  have used either or both Exit xx or Toll Plaza.

That being said, there may have been internal references to Turnpike interchanges as "Gates" that may have leaked out into the public jargon. 

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roadman65

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4858 on: March 21, 2023, 06:51:18 PM »

Iím to blame for this, but we are drifting away from the NJ Turnpike lately.
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Sheryl Crowe

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4859 on: March 22, 2023, 10:06:00 PM »

Does the Ohio Turnpike still call exits "Gates?"
In the mid-70s, at the US-20 interchange with the OH Turnpike in Maumee, I remember an advance LGS (not sure of the color, actually) reading

Ohio Turnpike
    Gate 4

I don't recall the word "gate" being used on the pike itself for the exits.  But it does stand out as the first -- and only -- time I've noticed a highway exit number acknowledged at the entrance.
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ixnay

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4860 on: March 23, 2023, 07:49:17 AM »

Officially, when I-71 was completed in the late 60s in Cleveland, it immediately had a direct connection to the Turnpike via a new Exit 10 toll plaza. 

And the remnants of the old Exit 10 (now 161) are very much in evidence per Google Sat.  And as of Oct. 2022, they needed to replace the I-80/OH Tpk. shield assembly facing northbound US 42 at the current entrance from the latter road.

Now back to the NJTP... I don't have time to search the thread, but has anybody ever read Looking for America on the New Jersey Turnpike by Michael Rockland and Angus Gillespie?  One factoid from that book I found intriguing is that photography on the Turnpike is prohibited and that one fellow from Virginia's Tidewater was arrested (IIRC he was acquitted) for photographing an accident that he narrowly avoided being in, but he felt he needed evidence for insurance purposes. 

The book (which came out in 1989 IIRC) fails to say why the no photos regulation was adopted (anybody on AARoads know?) or how long it's been on the books.
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wanderer2575

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4861 on: March 23, 2023, 09:23:18 AM »

Now back to the NJTP... I don't have time to search the thread, but has anybody ever read Looking for America on the New Jersey Turnpike by Michael Rockland and Angus Gillespie?  One factoid from that book I found intriguing is that photography on the Turnpike is prohibited and that one fellow from Virginia's Tidewater was arrested (IIRC he was acquitted) for photographing an accident that he narrowly avoided being in, but he felt he needed evidence for insurance purposes. 

The book (which came out in 1989 IIRC) fails to say why the no photos regulation was adopted (anybody on AARoads know?) or how long it's been on the books.


Basically the usual safety boilerplate, and it appears the prohibition applies only to the actual carriageways.  NJ Administrative Code ß19.9-1.22 says:
Quote
To insure the health, safety, and welfare of motorists, the general public, and the Authority, no person shall be permitted to park, stop, stand, or travel at a slow speed in violation of N.J.S.A. 27:23-27, for the purpose of taking photographs, videos, or motion pictures (collectively, "film") on the Roadway for any reason without a permit issued by the Authority in accordance with N.J.A.C. 19:9-5.6.  Notwithstanding the foregoing, filming for solely personal use is allowed without a permit in those areas of the Roadway in which parking, stopping, or standing is otherwise permitted.

I have the book and read it many years ago.  Interesting read.  I should dust it off and read it again.
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ixnay

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4862 on: March 23, 2023, 02:07:53 PM »

Now back to the NJTP... I don't have time to search the thread, but has anybody ever read Looking for America on the New Jersey Turnpike by Michael Rockland and Angus Gillespie?  One factoid from that book I found intriguing is that photography on the Turnpike is prohibited and that one fellow from Virginia's Tidewater was arrested (IIRC he was acquitted) for photographing an accident that he narrowly avoided being in, but he felt he needed evidence for insurance purposes. 

The book (which came out in 1989 IIRC) fails to say why the no photos regulation was adopted (anybody on AARoads know?) or how long it's been on the books.


Basically the usual safety boilerplate, and it appears the prohibition applies only to the actual carriageways.  NJ Administrative Code ß19.9-1.22 says:
Quote
To insure the health, safety, and welfare of motorists, the general public, and the Authority, no person shall be permitted to park, stop, stand, or travel at a slow speed in violation of N.J.S.A. 27:23-27, for the purpose of taking photographs, videos, or motion pictures (collectively, "film") on the Roadway for any reason without a permit issued by the Authority in accordance with N.J.A.C. 19:9-5.6.  Notwithstanding the foregoing, filming for solely personal use is allowed without a permit in those areas of the Roadway in which parking, stopping, or standing is otherwise permitted.

I have the book and read it many years ago.  Interesting read.  I should dust it off and read it again.

I bought and read c2c my copy back in 1993.  I think I gave it to my local library for a used book sale sometime in this millenium.

The authors of Looking for America... likened the no photos rule to treating the Pike like a secret military installation.  The book quoted the fellow from VA as calling the NJSP "fascists" not at the time of his arrest but in his retrospect.
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bzakharin

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4863 on: March 23, 2023, 04:45:28 PM »

But it does stand out as the first -- and only -- time I've noticed a highway exit number acknowledged at the entrance.

Then you haven't been at this Garden State Parkway entrance:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3912894,-74.5632147,3a,67.7y,29.85h,101.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ssvmew3xnMKuxDg9-GRTBcw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dsvmew3xnMKuxDg9-GRTBcw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D127.50494%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

36 is the exit number on the Parkway here.  Then again, this is the only place *I* have ever seen the exit number used this way, except back when the Parkway in Cape May County had traffic lights with "Exit" numbers on the blades.
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odditude

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4864 on: March 23, 2023, 06:17:29 PM »

But it does stand out as the first -- and only -- time I've noticed a highway exit number acknowledged at the entrance.

it happens for the highway this thread belongs to.
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Alps

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4865 on: March 23, 2023, 07:19:40 PM »

Now back to the NJTP... I don't have time to search the thread, but has anybody ever read Looking for America on the New Jersey Turnpike by Michael Rockland and Angus Gillespie?  One factoid from that book I found intriguing is that photography on the Turnpike is prohibited and that one fellow from Virginia's Tidewater was arrested (IIRC he was acquitted) for photographing an accident that he narrowly avoided being in, but he felt he needed evidence for insurance purposes. 

The book (which came out in 1989 IIRC) fails to say why the no photos regulation was adopted (anybody on AARoads know?) or how long it's been on the books.


Basically the usual safety boilerplate, and it appears the prohibition applies only to the actual carriageways.  NJ Administrative Code ß19.9-1.22 says:
Quote
To insure the health, safety, and welfare of motorists, the general public, and the Authority, no person shall be permitted to park, stop, stand, or travel at a slow speed in violation of N.J.S.A. 27:23-27, for the purpose of taking photographs, videos, or motion pictures (collectively, "film") on the Roadway for any reason without a permit issued by the Authority in accordance with N.J.A.C. 19:9-5.6.  Notwithstanding the foregoing, filming for solely personal use is allowed without a permit in those areas of the Roadway in which parking, stopping, or standing is otherwise permitted.

I have the book and read it many years ago.  Interesting read.  I should dust it off and read it again.

One time I was called out for my photos, albeit with a bit of a sly "don't tell me you were driving" "Oh, of course not! Offff cooouuuurrrse..." and that was it (:

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4866 on: March 23, 2023, 08:10:05 PM »

I've read my copy of that book several times. What was troubling about the photography ban was the heavy handed attitude of the Turnpike Authority and the State Troopers in the era when the book was written. (1980's)

The authors cited another case where a woman who was standing on the Route 18 bridge over the Turnpike right by the Authority's headquarters was either ticketed or arrested for taking photos OF the Turnpike from the bridge on a state highway not on Turnpike property.

She fought the charge in court and beat them. The court ruled that the NJTA could not prohibit people from taking photos OF the Turnpike from an OFF Turnpike property location such as a state highway. The NJTA could only enforce their rules ON Turnpike property. Arguably the Turnpike Authority and the State Police should have known and respected that legality themselves to begin with. And ya have to wonder why they even thought it was worth the time and effort to ticket the lady in the first place.

But then the Turnpike Authority and its associated State Police troop were infamous in that period for not respecting the laws regarding people's civil rights. They were eventually called out by the courts which forced them to change some of their practices. 
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jeffandnicole

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4867 on: March 23, 2023, 08:50:07 PM »

As is often the case, people over exaggerate the photo ban on the NJ Turnpike.  It's often written that they ban all photographs on the NJ Turnpike.  As wanderer posted:  "no person shall be permitted to park, stop, stand, or travel at a slow speed".  In other words...Don't do stupid stuff to get your photo.  The ban never said no photos ever.  If you're sitting in your car and not driving jussstttt likkkeee Alllllppppssss and you get your photo, you are in the clear.  Take pictures of the scenery or lack there of?  No problem.  Take pics of your family in the car?  Go for it.  But Urban Legends are what they are, and then Al Gore invented the Internet, and added to the legend of the photo ban of the Turnpike.  But there never was, and still isn't, a photo ban on the Turnpike. 
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bluecountry

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4868 on: March 27, 2023, 11:57:21 PM »

I guess I have to ask again since it keeps getting deleted(why), what is going on at exit 10?
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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4869 on: March 29, 2023, 12:12:47 AM »

I guess I have to ask again since it keeps getting deleted(why), what is going on at exit 10?
This is all I can find. https://www.njtat100523.com/

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4870 on: March 29, 2023, 12:30:12 AM »

I've taken plenty of pictures of the Turnpike, even while driving. Nobody has ever done anything to me. The only places I've driven slow in order to capture anything is in the service areas.
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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4871 on: March 29, 2023, 08:14:19 PM »

I've done that also, especially overhead sign photos. And one time I even had the audacity to stop on the northbound shoulder and take a photo of the old Turnpike Authority Hq. before they moved to the new one. But both of us were lucky we weren't spotted by any Troopers, as we probably would have been ticketed.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4872 on: April 02, 2023, 10:34:33 AM »

Today, NJ.com has an opinion piece of the Exit 1-4 widening that discusses how the area is mostly in favor of it. The opinion piece near the end also includes an interesting link regarding a "ill-fated plan from the 1990s", featuring many contributions by those participating on these forums.

https://www.nj.com/opinion/2023/04/lots-of-options-as-turnpike-goes-wide-in-south-jersey-editorial.html

The exact link: http://www.phillyroads.com/roads/US-322_NJ/
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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4873 on: April 02, 2023, 05:17:10 PM »

From that article:

Quote
But, the southern end of the toll road, where usage has been increasing, is in for a less controversial, less publicized widening, to.

That sentence seems like itís missing something at the end. To what?
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Re: New Jersey Turnpike
« Reply #4874 on: April 02, 2023, 05:49:55 PM »

From that article:

Quote
But, the southern end of the toll road, where usage has been increasing, is in for a less controversial, less publicized widening, to.

That sentence seems like itís missing something at the end. To what?

I think it was bad grammar and word usage.

"But the southern end of the toll road, where usage has been increasing, is also in for a less controversial, less publicized widening." would have been better.

And it has been publicized and commented on. Even by the Sierra Club, which overall basically gave as much of a blessing as they're going to give towards a highway widening project.

As for the article, I'm not sure what they mean by a Route 45 median...it's about 8 feet wide. And a cars-only exit isn't going to gain any traction nor is there any reason in the area for one.
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