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Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Bruce on September 17, 2018, 12:08:00 PM

Title: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Bruce on September 17, 2018, 12:08:00 PM
There's now three stores in Seattle where you can walk in, flash your phone at some turnstiles, grab some pre-packaged food, then walk out without having to use a self-checkout or encounter a normal cashier.

The entire store is wired with ceiling cameras that track people as they move around, pick things up, and then leave, tallying up their cart and charging through the app (which takes ~10 minutes to go through). It's smart enough to know if you've picked up something and sent it back or if you're trying to be sneaky and quick.

The tech holds a lot of potential when it comes to places where people like to rush: airport terminals, subway stations, stadium concessions, etc.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1873/43490516375_1fa2f05569_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29g7gke)
Amazon Go at Madison Centre (https://flic.kr/p/29g7gke) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1877/42589251230_e107ab5348_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3B1)
Amazon Go at Madison Centre (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3B1) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1844/42589250540_009528c37e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3p7)
Amazon Go at Madison Centre (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3p7) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1867/42589250090_dd42fcdff8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3gm)
Amazon Go at Madison Centre (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3gm) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: abefroman329 on September 17, 2018, 12:20:01 PM
They just opened one in Chicago. I don't plan to patronize it - I think this is the level of surveillance that meets my threshold of excessive, and I think it's pretty obnoxious to open a store that you're only welcome to shop at if you have a smartphone and an Amazon Prime account.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 12:30:56 PM
There are other stores that do the same thing (same CCTV setup and lack of cashiers) that don't require an Amazon Account.  I'd be curious to see what the inventory shrink results would be given the business concept is relatively new.  CCTV only goes so far in deterring theft over a flesh and blood person.  I'd imagine most stores like this will in somewhat low risk areas.   
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: abefroman329 on September 17, 2018, 12:34:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 12:30:56 PMThere are other stores that do the same thing (same CCTV setup and lack of cashiers) that don't require an Amazon Account.  I'd be curious to see what the inventory shrink results would be given the business concept is relatively new.  CCTV only goes so far in deterring theft over a flesh and blood person.  I'd imagine most stores like this will in somewhat low risk areas.
Any store is high-risk if foot traffic is high.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 12:43:55 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 17, 2018, 12:34:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 12:30:56 PMThere are other stores that do the same thing (same CCTV setup and lack of cashiers) that don't require an Amazon Account.  I'd be curious to see what the inventory shrink results would be given the business concept is relatively new.  CCTV only goes so far in deterring theft over a flesh and blood person.  I'd imagine most stores like this will in somewhat low risk areas.
Any store is high-risk if foot traffic is high.

But if sales are high it ought to drive shrink by percentage down even if the dollar amount is high.  The real questions probably ought to be; what is the anticipated volume and what is the budgeted shrink reserve?
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Brandon on September 17, 2018, 01:54:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 12:30:56 PM
There are other stores that do the same thing (same CCTV setup and lack of cashiers) that don't require an Amazon Account.  I'd be curious to see what the inventory shrink results would be given the business concept is relatively new.  CCTV only goes so far in deterring theft over a flesh and blood person.  I'd imagine most stores like this will in somewhat low risk areas.   

I'm curious as well.  It sounds like a shoplifting magnet.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: NE2 on September 17, 2018, 02:25:56 PM
Gotta steal 'em all.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Brandon on September 17, 2018, 02:45:49 PM
Quote from: NE2 on September 17, 2018, 02:25:56 PM
Gotta steal 'em all.

I've found, in my years working in a grocery store in a middle-class suburb (Bolingbrook), that shoplifting tends to be something people across the socioeconomic spectrum try to get away with.  The memorable ones were:

- A lady from Chicago trying to make off with a cart full of baby formula to her getaway car in the parking lot.  We chased her out and she abandoned the cart in the lot before getting to the vehicle.

- Two kids (had to be 12 or 13 tops) pocketing bottles of wine cooler.  I embarrassed the crap out of them by first noting that they didn't look old enough to have such a product.  They handed over three bottles they had pocketed and got the heck out of there.  Never saw them darken the door of the store again.

- A brazen attempt to steal packs of cigarettes (back when they were out in the open) stopped by a manager and me.

- And my favorite, as a bagger, I noticed about half a dozen gallons of water on the bottom of a cart that some very obviously upper-middle class people were taking through the checkline.  I made note of it to the cashier and told her about the gallons of water.  I got the nastiest look from the couple.  My parents, in the line behind this couple, mentioned to me that it looked like the couple wanted to walk out without paying for the water (a total cost of maybe $7).
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: abefroman329 on September 17, 2018, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2018, 02:45:49 PM- And my favorite, as a bagger, I noticed about half a dozen gallons of water on the bottom of a cart that some very obviously upper-middle class people were taking through the checkline.  I made note of it to the cashier and told her about the gallons of water.  I got the nastiest look from the couple.  My parents, in the line behind this couple, mentioned to me that it looked like the couple wanted to walk out without paying for the water (a total cost of maybe $7).
My grandmother had Greek neighbors that would go to Jewel and load the bottom of their cart with cases of pop and not unload them to have them scanned or point them out to the cashier. Most of the time, they got away with it, and when my grandmother called them out on it, they would respond "well it's the stupid [racial slur] cashier's fault for not seeing them."
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: MantyMadTown on September 17, 2018, 04:12:56 PM
I would never shop here. I don't want to have my privacy breached by having a bunch of Amazon cameras turned on me and watch my transactions. I'd rather go to a regular store, where they only have cameras around to prevent shoplifting, have actual cashiers checking you out, and doesn't require you to have an app on your smartphone. Everything seems to be getting replaced by automation these days. Is nothing sacred anymore for these tech companies?
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 04:24:18 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 17, 2018, 04:12:56 PM
I would never shop here. I don't want to have my privacy breached by having a bunch of Amazon cameras turned on me and watch my transactions. I'd rather go to a regular store, where they only have cameras around to prevent shoplifting, have actual cashiers checking you out, and doesn't require you to have an app on your smartphone. Everything seems to be getting replaced by automation these days. Is nothing sacred anymore for these tech companies?

Well if there is a way to cost costs (which includes payroll) companies are going to do it.  Like I said above, Amazon isn't the first retailer to try this concept.  I don't think full automation in the cashiering process outside of convenience stores will be plausible. At some point customers will have questions or problems will happen that an automated register can't handle. 

To that end going to what I was saying about inventory loss earlier, having less of a payroll will certainly increase the margin for error.  But that said stores like this still need to have people stock shelves and receive deliveries.  To that end it makes me curious how many payroll dollars are saved by automation at the register. 
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: MikeTheActuary on September 17, 2018, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 17, 2018, 04:12:56 PM
I would never shop here. I don't want to have my privacy breached by having a bunch of Amazon cameras turned on me and watch my transactions. I'd rather go to a regular store, where they only have cameras around to prevent shoplifting, have actual cashiers checking you out, and doesn't require you to have an app on your smartphone. Everything seems to be getting replaced by automation these days. Is nothing sacred anymore for these tech companies?

Actually, for relatively small shopping runs, the idea of being able to "just grab it and go", without having to wait in a checkout queue has quite a bit of appeal.

Sure, you have all the camera technology stealing your soul while they figure out which products you're taking, but if it's done in such a way as to be not too obviously intrusive.   

There's no end to what some Americans are willing to give up in the interest of convenience.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: jakeroot on September 17, 2018, 04:37:06 PM
I have no issue with this concept. I'm not sure how exactly privacy is a concern here. The cameras are watching the items for the most part, plus you already have to have an Amazon account. Plus, checkout lines blow. I have shit to do, and would rather just walk out. Also, stealing is rather hard since you can't enter the store without an Amazon account.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: hotdogPi on September 17, 2018, 04:37:34 PM
I would be worried about being charged more than what I bought.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: jakeroot on September 17, 2018, 04:38:56 PM
Quote from: 1 on September 17, 2018, 04:37:34 PM
I would be worried about being charged more than what I bought.

You can contest charges and receive an immediate refund, no questions asked.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: formulanone on September 17, 2018, 04:44:54 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 17, 2018, 04:30:40 PM
Actually, for relatively small shopping runs, the idea of being able to "just grab it and go", without having to wait in a checkout queue has quite a bit of appeal.

There's no end to what some Americans are willing to give up in the interest of convenience.

NOT TOTALLY UNEXPECTED ITEM IN BAGGING AREA

There will have to be someone on site to deal with the mistaken duplicate charges, stolen merchandise, merchandise that one gets incorrectly charged for, the pricing/stocking errors, and all the other stupid crap that happens in the average grocery or general merchandise store.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: jon daly on September 17, 2018, 04:57:04 PM
This sounds like Alan Funt's idea of an Automat.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 05:13:24 PM
I'm assuming all those items must have RFID of some kind looking at those turnstiles above.  Years ago that was an expensive proposition to RFID anything but a bulk item or palette. 
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: vdeane on September 17, 2018, 05:52:43 PM
I have to admit, I'm kinda wondering about the possibility of errors in billing.  And having to have a phone app is certainly inconvenient.  That said, I don't otherwise have a problem with this specifically, though I can't help but think about what else a similar camera/software setup could do.  I could easily see an authoritarian government weaponizing something like this against those who won't fall in line.

Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 17, 2018, 04:12:56 PM
Is nothing sacred anymore for these tech companies?
Their profits?
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 06:06:52 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 17, 2018, 05:52:43 PM
I have to admit, I'm kinda wondering about the possibility of errors in billing.  And having to have a phone app is certainly inconvenient.  That said, I don't otherwise have a problem with this specifically, though I can't help but think about what else a similar camera/software setup could do.  I could easily see an authoritarian government weaponizing something like this against those who won't fall in line.

Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 17, 2018, 04:12:56 PM
Is nothing sacred anymore for these tech companies?
Their profits?

That's what the RFID ought to mitigate.  Essentially the customer doesn't ring anything those towers at the front of store just tally up what's in their bag from the RFID tags.  So long as the tagging is correct there ought to be minimal errors. 
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: abefroman329 on September 17, 2018, 06:32:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 05:13:24 PM
I'm assuming all those items must have RFID of some kind looking at those turnstiles above.  Years ago that was an expensive proposition to RFID anything but a bulk item or palette.
Airlines are putting RFID chips in bag tags.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: nexus73 on September 17, 2018, 06:36:02 PM
The products should be sold with a new style of vending machines.  That way anyone with a credit/debit card or dollar bills can make a purchase.  Heck, one can even accept EBT cards as well.  With vending machines doing the holding of products, there goes your shoplifting troubles down the drain!

Rick
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 06:57:55 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 17, 2018, 06:32:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 17, 2018, 05:13:24 PM
I'm assuming all those items must have RFID of some kind looking at those turnstiles above.  Years ago that was an expensive proposition to RFID anything but a bulk item or palette.
Airlines are putting RFID chips in bag tags.

About two decades ago the average RFID tag cost $0.40-0.50 cents.  For bulk items it was no issue to affix them but they weren't partical in a store setting at that price point.  I wonder what the price of an average RFID tag dropped to nowadays.  EAS tags used to be expensive per unit until they became common place in retail stores and often vendor sourced which drove the price down.  I assume the same thing is happening now with RFID. 
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: abefroman329 on September 17, 2018, 07:13:22 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 17, 2018, 06:36:02 PM
The products should be sold with a new style of vending machines.  That way anyone with a credit/debit card or dollar bills can make a purchase.  Heck, one can even accept EBT cards as well.  With vending machines doing the holding of products, there goes your shoplifting troubles down the drain!

Rick
They tried that in DC. It was a massive failure, partly because the items were priced way too high to compete with nearby convenience stores.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: MantyMadTown on September 17, 2018, 07:18:50 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 17, 2018, 05:52:43 PM
I have to admit, I'm kinda wondering about the possibility of errors in billing.  And having to have a phone app is certainly inconvenient.  That said, I don't otherwise have a problem with this specifically, though I can't help but think about what else a similar camera/software setup could do.  I could easily see an authoritarian government weaponizing something like this against those who won't fall in line.

Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 17, 2018, 04:12:56 PM
Is nothing sacred anymore for these tech companies?
Their profits?

Oh they'll do anything to keep those. Even if it means disrupting entire industries and recreating them in their image.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Takumi on September 17, 2018, 08:17:22 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/4pYrxtA_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Bruce on September 18, 2018, 12:01:48 AM
To clear up some confusion and misleading statements in this thread:

You only need the app and an active card on the Amazon account. No Prime needed.

The sales are done solely through the camera sensors, no RFID needed.

There are roaming staff members who restock shelves and control the inflow of people (especially at the tourist-heavy locations), since the system can't handle a giant crowd rushing in at once.

Camera-based payment is already pretty common with electronic tolling and other industries, and there's plenty of CCTV activity already going on around you anyway...so what's the real harm? This kind of automation is akin to a better version of the vending machine...one that won't jam up and require a few kicks to get your goods.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: nexus73 on September 18, 2018, 11:04:26 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 17, 2018, 07:13:22 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 17, 2018, 06:36:02 PM
The products should be sold with a new style of vending machines.  That way anyone with a credit/debit card or dollar bills can make a purchase.  Heck, one can even accept EBT cards as well.  With vending machines doing the holding of products, there goes your shoplifting troubles down the drain!

Rick
They tried that in DC. It was a massive failure, partly because the items were priced way too high to compete with nearby convenience stores.

You mentioned "partly".  Please let me know the other factors which contributed to the failure.

Rick
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 18, 2018, 11:13:06 AM
People complaining about technology while they type their feelings via a device that can be 100% tracked.

Uh huh.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Max Rockatansky on September 18, 2018, 11:31:07 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 18, 2018, 11:13:06 AM
People complaining about technology while they type their feelings via a device that can be 100% tracked.

Uh huh.

I'm more curious how the business operates.  My background is in physical security and I've had several retail store contracts over the years.  Specifically I'd like to find out how the camera sensors identify items and UPCs. 
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: kalvado on September 18, 2018, 12:48:34 PM
As for privacy... If you pay by credit card, store gets a bit of information about you and a full list of your purchases. More so if there is a reward program, which is common for grocery stores - they know the purchase history.
So what kind of privacy we're talking about? Facial expression of disgust/pure love when you look at certain items? Or how much time you spend reading the back of the package?
There may be some data to be extracted, but yield is likely low...
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: vdeane on September 18, 2018, 01:35:48 PM
I could see the data having use.  Maybe marketing firms will want this information (to use with information from other sources) to build profiles for targeted advertising.  Maybe you'll look at a product favorably but not buy and then start getting junk mail trying to get you to buy it.  Maybe your self-driving car will start plastering adverts on the windshield when you're near a store that sells the product.  Or maybe the government will request this data as a law enforcement dragnet, using algorithms to determine if you're likely to commit a crime soon.  Maybe if you buy the wrong product with the wrong demeanor, or you also make trips to the wrong places, etc., you'll get arrested and charged with being a terrorist, forced to prove your innocence (there was a time when buying a certain amount of fertilizer or a crock pot was virtually guaranteed to get you a visit from the FBI, not it's not totally out of the question).

I probably wouldn't ever use this for two reasons:
1. I don't want to have to install an app to use a store.  My phone has limited storage, and even if I did have space, I don't see why I should clutter up my phone and have to go through the inconvenience of getting it out and opening the app when I never needed any app to go to any store before.
2. I have concerns over whether inaccuracies could crop up in billing.  Accurately figuring out what you took seems to be quite a task to do by camera, and the fact that I wouldn't be able to resolve issues in real time is an issue.  Even if issues are rare, I guarantee that they'll happen eventually, and resolving them won't be convenient in the slightest.  How would you prove the computer wrong?
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Max Rockatansky on September 18, 2018, 01:37:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 18, 2018, 12:48:34 PM
As for privacy... If you pay by credit card, store gets a bit of information about you and a full list of your purchases. More so if there is a reward program, which is common for grocery stores - they know the purchase history.
So what kind of privacy we're talking about? Facial expression of disgust/pure love when you look at certain items? Or how much time you spend reading the back of the package?
There may be some data to be extracted, but yield is likely low...

Really it's not any different than any other merchant that takes credit/debit cards.  The information was handled very poorly and was easily accessed by employees as a whole industry wide before PCI laws. 
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: abefroman329 on September 18, 2018, 02:09:32 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 18, 2018, 11:04:26 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 17, 2018, 07:13:22 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 17, 2018, 06:36:02 PM
The products should be sold with a new style of vending machines.  That way anyone with a credit/debit card or dollar bills can make a purchase.  Heck, one can even accept EBT cards as well.  With vending machines doing the holding of products, there goes your shoplifting troubles down the drain!

Rick
They tried that in DC. It was a massive failure, partly because the items were priced way too high to compete with nearby convenience stores.

You mentioned "partly".  Please let me know the other factors which contributed to the failure.

Rick
Here, read about it for yourself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/2002/08/30/convenience-and-controversy-in-adams-morgan/145512c8-b806-49ae-82b7-46c14c9b4a4e/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6bd5045b4e5a
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: nexus73 on September 18, 2018, 10:40:43 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 18, 2018, 02:09:32 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 18, 2018, 11:04:26 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 17, 2018, 07:13:22 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 17, 2018, 06:36:02 PM
The products should be sold with a new style of vending machines.  That way anyone with a credit/debit card or dollar bills can make a purchase.  Heck, one can even accept EBT cards as well.  With vending machines doing the holding of products, there goes your shoplifting troubles down the drain!

Rick
They tried that in DC. It was a massive failure, partly because the items were priced way too high to compete with nearby convenience stores.

You mentioned "partly".  Please let me know the other factors which contributed to the failure.

Rick
Here, read about it for yourself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/2002/08/30/convenience-and-controversy-in-adams-morgan/145512c8-b806-49ae-82b7-46c14c9b4a4e/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6bd5045b4e5a

Thanks for the link.  It appears new ways of doing business meet social resistance.  For me, self checkout at stores drives me crazy as the menus and operations are way too complex when all I wanted to do was buy, pay and go.  The Amazon system eliminates those problems.  Heck, so does a vending machine!  That is something we are used to as consumers. 

Did you know you can get a new vehicle from a vending machine?  There is an ad on TV showing how to order up the rig you want. It can be delivered to this giant structure that will house them and move them out once you drop in the special coin made for that purpose.

Look at how general goods stores with clerks getting merchandise from behind the counter was changed by the invention of the shopping cart and open to the public aisles 100 years ago.  What will retail sales look like 100 years from now?  If we have nanotech, we won't even need to have goods sold since anyone can make up anything they want from atoms.  Replicator technology is getting closer all the time!  We already have 3-D printers, which will soon be as obsolete as 8-track tapes.

Rick 
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: ET21 on September 19, 2018, 08:46:29 AM
I'll be curious to see how it works, might check out the one in downtown
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: MikeTheActuary on September 19, 2018, 10:43:50 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 18, 2018, 11:31:07 AMI'm more curious how the business operates.  My background is in physical security and I've had several retail store contracts over the years.  Specifically I'd like to find out how the camera sensors identify items and UPCs. 

Amazon's being coy about letting on too much about that....but some of what I've noticed in the pictures of the stores include:

- There are a BUNCH of sensors in that place.  I don't think all of them are cameras.

- Notice how items are lined up and spaced.  If you program the system to know which items are where, and have an attendant ensure that items are placed back "just so", you probably don't need to scan the items.

- Notice that most of the products have distinct shapes, and certain items are placed on contrasting backgrounds.

- I can't tell just from what I've seen/read online whether the sensors in the store are tracking people, or if the app is using NFC as a means to identify which customer is at which product.  I assume the system is at risk of overload if there are too many people in the shopping area, so perhaps the turnstiles at the entryway are a mechanism to limit the number of people in the shopping area...?

I suspect that last point drives why the store's offerings are relatively limited.  Broader offering...more customers...harder to tell who's who (and harder to keep the product on the shelves "just so").
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Bruce on September 19, 2018, 11:08:57 PM
The sensors are doing all the tracking. I don't enable my NFC sensor while inside (or anywhere really) and the orders are still accurate.

The turnstiles require you to scan a QR code from the app and lets the system know that you are in the store itself. You can also scan a guest or two with the same code and it will identify you and your guest as belonging to that one account. The store can't handle many people, so limiting access is also a function of the turnstiles.

The stores are very much a grab-and-go kind of place, meant for snacks, essentials, and things you'd probably need to buy spontaneously rather than with your regular groceries.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Scott5114 on September 20, 2018, 01:15:52 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 19, 2018, 10:43:50 PM
- Notice how items are lined up and spaced.  If you program the system to know which items are where, and have an attendant ensure that items are placed back "just so", you probably don't need to scan the items.

- Notice that most of the products have distinct shapes, and certain items are placed on contrasting backgrounds.

It seems like relying on such things is just begging for the system to be ruined by the carelessness of the General Public. (I don't want this banana, obviously the place to leave it is with the shampoo.)
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: MikeTheActuary on September 20, 2018, 09:53:38 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2018, 01:15:52 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 19, 2018, 10:43:50 PM
- Notice how items are lined up and spaced.  If you program the system to know which items are where, and have an attendant ensure that items are placed back "just so", you probably don't need to scan the items.

- Notice that most of the products have distinct shapes, and certain items are placed on contrasting backgrounds.

It seems like relying on such things is just begging for the system to be ruined by the carelessness of the General Public. (I don't want this banana, obviously the place to leave it is with the shampoo.)

Hence the need for an attendant to make sure that things are returned "just so".

I imagine the increased risk of being mis-charged / mis-credited would also promote proper behavior by the public.

(Note also that my comments are just pure speculation, wondering how the system works and only having pictures and a few reports to go on.)

[Fixed quoting. -S.]
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Scott5114 on September 21, 2018, 03:33:55 AM
Sure, but an attendant can't be everywhere at once. You also can't promote proper behavior amongst the General Public; from my observations they make no connection at all between their behavior and any consequences that might be visited upon them. Any mischarges would simply lead to complaints, not any introspection regarding whether perhaps they were themselves somehow responsible.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: jakeroot on September 21, 2018, 12:24:42 PM
Regular grocery stores have staff on that do the same thing. It's also not unusual for customers at any store to grab item A, hung on the same rack as item B by some moron, but then complain when charged item A price (as they thought they grabbed something priced the same as item B). Amazon Go stores are small enough that "lazy misplacement" is less likely than at traditional grocery stores.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: cjk374 on September 22, 2018, 08:10:34 PM
I ain't a fan of this new technology. Between now and 20 years from now, what Amazon has in place will be obsolete, as well as the technology that replaced it. I'm sure it will improve, but I will avoid stores like these at all cost for as long as I can.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: jakeroot on September 23, 2018, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on September 22, 2018, 08:10:34 PM
I ain't a fan of this new technology. Between now and 20 years from now, what Amazon has in place will be obsolete, as well as the technology that replaced it. I'm sure it will improve, but I will avoid stores like these at all cost for as long as I can.

Except for barcodes, the traditional grocery store has barely changed in the last 70 years. What makes you think this leap-frog move by Amazon will be obsolete in 20 years?
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: cjk374 on September 23, 2018, 07:59:10 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2018, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on September 22, 2018, 08:10:34 PM
I ain't a fan of this new technology. Between now and 20 years from now, what Amazon has in place will be obsolete, as well as the technology that replaced it. I'm sure it will improve, but I will avoid stores like these at all cost for as long as I can.

Except for barcodes, the traditional grocery store has barely changed in the last 70 years. What makes you think this leap-frog move by Amazon will be obsolete in 20 years?

Technology becomes obsolete quickly nowadays. The cameras & sensors in place now will be replaced by some currently-unforseen technology. I really wasn't referring to the concept of the store itself.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Brandon on September 23, 2018, 08:14:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2018, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on September 22, 2018, 08:10:34 PM
I ain't a fan of this new technology. Between now and 20 years from now, what Amazon has in place will be obsolete, as well as the technology that replaced it. I'm sure it will improve, but I will avoid stores like these at all cost for as long as I can.

Except for barcodes, the traditional grocery store has barely changed in the last 70 years. What makes you think this leap-frog move by Amazon will be obsolete in 20 years?

That's a bit naive.  The grocery store has changed a lot in the past 70 years.  They started out as purely dry goods operations.  Over the years, they've added bakery, deli, fresh produce, dairy, frozen foods, and in some cases, massive general merchandise sections as hypermarkets.  The checkout technology has changed from typing in prices and having minimal control over inventory to bar codes linked to inventory instantaneously.  We've even added self checkout technology.  You're also missing the advances in selling products to people.  A store at one time just had people walk past everything on the way to the checkout to the subtle and somewhat sly displays of today.

Amazon Go with no checkout and minimal clerks is a gimmick, & I doubt that it will last as a concept.  It's too easy to shoplift, it requires far too many cameras, & it needs to limit the number of people in the store with a very limited selection that the cameras can recognize.  It will never be viable for a Meijer type store.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: jakeroot on September 24, 2018, 02:27:59 AM
Quote from: Brandon on September 23, 2018, 08:14:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2018, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on September 22, 2018, 08:10:34 PM
I ain't a fan of this new technology. Between now and 20 years from now, what Amazon has in place will be obsolete, as well as the technology that replaced it. I'm sure it will improve, but I will avoid stores like these at all cost for as long as I can.

Except for barcodes, the traditional grocery store has barely changed in the last 70 years. What makes you think this leap-frog move by Amazon will be obsolete in 20 years?

That's a bit naive.  The grocery store has changed a lot in the past 70 years.  They started out as purely dry goods operations.  Over the years, they've added bakery, deli, fresh produce, dairy, frozen foods, and in some cases, massive general merchandise sections as hypermarkets.  The checkout technology has changed from typing in prices and having minimal control over inventory to bar codes linked to inventory instantaneously.  We've even added self checkout technology.  You're also missing the advances in selling products to people.  A store at one time just had people walk past everything on the way to the checkout to the subtle and somewhat sly displays of today.

Amazon Go with no checkout and minimal clerks is a gimmick, & I doubt that it will last as a concept.  It's too easy to shoplift, it requires far too many cameras, & it needs to limit the number of people in the store with a very limited selection that the cameras can recognize.  It will never be viable for a Meijer type store.

I would say it's rather naive to assume that Amazon Go is a gimmick. It introduces people to a way of shopping unlike any experience before it (at least on a wide scale). Stores like Amazon Go are more comparable to drug stores and small chains like Lidl. Small stores with limited, albeit affordable, selections. While we have introduced things like self checkout, the checkout process still remains completely fucked; it still takes way too long. Even "express checkouts" are a scam. Everyone uses that damn line.

Here's my guess: traditional grocery stores will be the last to receive the Amazon Go treatment. Smaller stores, like drug stores or gas stations, will be the first, since they have a small selection, and the items can be managed more easily. Eventually, as the technology improves, it will be able to work at just about any sort of business. The return process will need some work, but "needs some work" applies to just about everything in any industry.

For what it's worth, while grocery stores have evolved into a sort of experience geared towards the consumer, with aisles and shelving designed to sell, these can still be maintained once the stores are converted to "automatic check out". When I say that grocery stores haven't changed in a long time, I'm referring to the checkout process. I am aware that, at one point, checkers had to type in an item's number in order to add it to the bill, but that was eventually replaced by the barcode. That was a massive leap, because it improved the checkout experience by speeding it up dramatically. The Amazon Go experience builds on that by completely eliminating the checkout stand. If you're going to only grab one or two things, you can be out, at least in theory, in less than 60 seconds. That's nearly impossible at any store right now.

Another thing: Amazon Go stores serve a part of the population that may not drive, or frequently grocery shops, so much so that they generally don't need a cart when they go, because they're only buying a few things. these people are only in the store for maybe 2 or 3 minutes, and then they're ready to go. That does not describe your average Kroger experience, which is why those types of stores will be the last to see this sort of set-up.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Bruce on September 24, 2018, 03:52:02 AM
According to Bloomberg, Amazon might be preparing for a huge scale-up: 3,000 stores by 2021 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-19/amazon-is-said-to-plan-up-to-3-000-cashierless-stores-by-2021).

The article also some interesting tidbits, like the $1 million cost for the first store in Seattle but later stores could have a more limited stock to reduce the number of cameras needed to cover the store.

As for the above replies:

There's a reason why Amazon stresses that Go is a convenience store and not a grocer. It's definitely going to fill the niche between full-on mini-marts and vending machines, and will be perfectly sized for kiosks and stands inside train stations, within office buildings, and at public plazas and the like. It's a very much urban store and would not work well in a drive-up suburb.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: formulanone on September 24, 2018, 07:15:56 PM
So...any word on pricing?

These stores are going to be in the top-dollar-per-square-foot districts, so all it really seems to do is drive out the bodegas.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: In_Correct on October 01, 2018, 10:56:07 AM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2018, 12:08:00 PM
There's now three stores in Seattle where you can walk in, flash your phone at some turnstiles, grab some pre-packaged food, then walk out without having to use a self-checkout or encounter a normal cashier.

The entire store is wired with ceiling cameras that track people as they move around, pick things up, and then leave, tallying up their cart and charging through the app (which takes ~10 minutes to go through). It's smart enough to know if you've picked up something and sent it back or if you're trying to be sneaky and quick.

The tech holds a lot of potential when it comes to places where people like to rush: airport terminals, subway stations, stadium concessions, etc.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1873/43490516375_1fa2f05569_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29g7gke)
Amazon Go at Madison Centre (https://flic.kr/p/29g7gke) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1877/42589251230_e107ab5348_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3B1)
Amazon Go at Madison Centre (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3B1) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1844/42589250540_009528c37e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3p7)
Amazon Go at Madison Centre (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3p7) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1867/42589250090_dd42fcdff8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3gm)
Amazon Go at Madison Centre (https://flic.kr/p/27Tt3gm) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

These "unmanned stores" are a lot more common than just Amazon.

I see no reason to shop them. Even an unmanned store still has staff some where and places such as Walmart has Self Check Out with a cashier monitoring a cluster of Self Check Out registers. They even have upgraded their convener belt aisles to self check outs. The cashiers walk by these aisles also. And it seems that they don't even need to touch the screen any more. No doubt the cashiers can access the registers by remote control.

And I do not have any cell phone service and I never will. These Self Check Outs have a variety of payment methods. The vending machines, whether it is traditional refrigerator sized machines, or ice / water vending machines, they also offer multiple payment options. So does online. I strictly shop online and at hypermarkets. I do not bother with silly little stores. When getting fuel, I pay at the pump. I like self service, but Unmanned Stores are not that interesting, especially since places such as Walmart have an effective system in place.

As for Amazon, I am boycotting it. I do not like the experience of the other things Amazon has which means I am not optimistic about Amazon Go and I will be avoiding it on purpose.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: jakeroot on October 01, 2018, 01:56:51 PM
Quote from: In_Correct on October 01, 2018, 10:56:07 AM
And I do not have any cell phone service and I never will....As for Amazon, I am boycotting it.

With that kind of attitude, I wouldn't exactly describe you as this store's target audience. Respectfully, I doubt anyone would care.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: Bruce on June 28, 2023, 12:15:43 AM
An update to an old thread:

Obviously Amazon's plan to scale this concept up nationally hasn't quite worked out due to the pandemic, and they are now closing some stores (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/amazon-closes-another-go-convenience-store-in-downtown-seattle-location-was-second-to-open/) in Seattle for a number of reasons. Their stubborn refusal to open stores on weekends really hurt the thing, since it would be amazing being able to bypass the crowded convenience stores in downtown during a major weekend event (such as last weekend's Pride).

They have been rolling out the same tech in their larger Amazon Fresh stores, as well as stadiums and airports. Those last two are really good use cases for the technology, since getting people out fast for turnover is really important. Watched a good line of soccer fans get through a "just walk out" booth at Lumen Field a while ago in mere minutes during half-time, ready to go back to their seats in time for kickoff. Hard to do that with a traditional cashier setup.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: jakeroot on June 28, 2023, 02:30:00 AM
Before I moved, my main grocery story was the Amazon Fresh in Factoria. It was a great store, I have no complaints.

I am surprised to see that they opened an Amazon Go off Canyon Road in Puyallup. Its hours are everyday, 5:00 to 22:00. Why were the Seattle locations not open on weekends if they kept the suburban locations open 7 days per week?
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: formulanone on June 28, 2023, 07:48:21 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 28, 2023, 12:15:43 AMThey have been rolling out the same tech in their larger Amazon Fresh stores, as well as stadiums and airports.

I have not yet encountered Amazon's version of an employee-less storefront, but have seen several similar concepts at airports and even at a few auto dealerships. A few airports still staff someone and it's largely a self-checkout procedure; it's nice to have the staff available if you have a less-common circumstance (for example, an airline food voucher*) or something refuses to scan, which probably leads to a lost sale.

As for the dealerships, I'm not sure how much profit they really take in at all but the busiest locations, and I'm sure there's also a good bit of shrink. For one, some people may not be aware there are charges for the snacks (some brands/locations offer lots of little freebies, some do not) while others feel the added cost of doing business means they're entitled to it. But given that customers are doing such things openly and in the eyes of other guests, society creates is own invisible and silent repelling force which means that few want to be seen as thieves for any period of time.

* Airlines now tend give you a paper chit with a credit card number on it, but with an expiration date of approximately 24-48 hours. It's not a bad idea because you can use it at your connection point as well, provided it's not too early or late.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: SectorZ on June 28, 2023, 07:58:53 AM
Anyone know why all the Amazon Fresh locations in Massachusetts are becoming vaporware?

They built one in Saugus, MA which is so done there's even empty cart corrals outside, and it's been like that for a year. They even had a sign up and took it down. Billerica, MA, in the old Billerica Mall, they've been slow-walking the build of one for over a year, with most days nothing going on at it.

The media is noticing, https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2023/04/19/saugus-amazon-grocery-store-moving/

What I don't get is they said (in the link) they were stopping expansion, yet they're still working on the unfinished ones and not opening outright finished ones. It's weird behavior.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: 1995hoo on June 28, 2023, 08:31:58 AM
There's an Amazon Go store near the World Trade Center. I haven't been there. But I have been to an Amazon Fresh store near my house. It's not a regular stop for me because for the most part I prefer Wegmans (among other reasons, they have a much better selection of meat and fish). I go to Amazon primarily for Keurig coffee because their prices are better than Wegmans' prices and they sell larger boxes (32 K-Cups to a box instead of 12). But I also try to time it so that I go when there's a good coupon–in order to drum up business, they sometimes send out coupons for things like 20% off if you spend $40 or similar.

The special shopping carts that let you skip the checkout work pretty well and the only negative to them, in my view, is that they only accept Amazon's coupons, not manufacturers' coupons. So, for example, earlier this month I had a coupon for some amount off two pints of Ben & Jerry's. If I'd had an Amazon 20% off coupon, I could not have stacked those coupons using the special cart, although I could have gone to a cashier and used them there. I did notice on my most recent trip that they replaced all the special carts with a larger model–I guess people complained that the carts didn't hold enough stuff. The Amazon cart uses barcode scanners on the cart itself to detect what you put in the bag, and if you try to cover up the barcode to put something in without scanning it will sound an alert (the scanners detect the movement and flag an "unrecognized item"). The way the cart knows you are you and what card to charge, BTW, is that you use the Amazon app to generate an in-store barcode and you scan that code using the cart's scanner. That logs you in and it charges the card you have tied to your Amazon account.

Verizon Center in Washington DC has a concession "stand" that works somewhat similarly. "Stand" isn't really the right word. It's more like a concession "room" that sells only beverages (beer, soda, and water). You tap or swipe your card when you enter the room and it puts a $25 hold on your card. You then pick up what you want to buy and you simply walk out (an attendant cards you for beer if needed). A day or so later, the charge adjusts to reflect what you actually bought–conceptually similar, I suppose, to a gas station, except that they must use cameras all over the room to figure out what you're picking up because I found no barcode scanners anywhere, much less anything to tie what you pick up to your particular card. It worked correctly the two times I tried it, though.
Title: Re: Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store
Post by: ET21 on June 29, 2023, 10:40:07 AM
We have one down the street but have yet to actually check it out