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Regional Boards => Southeast => Topic started by: I-39 on July 21, 2015, 07:37:29 PM

Title: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: I-39 on July 21, 2015, 07:37:29 PM
Nashville has grown tremendously in the last decade since the northern half of I-840 (then TN-840) was shelved, and it will likely continue as people move to Tennessee from elsewhere. As a result of the growth, traffic in and around Nashville is getting progressively worse. Finishing the northern half of I-840 will allow traffic to bypass downtown Nashville and provide better connectivity for the growing suburbs of Nashville.

Yes, it will be costly, but I'm sure they could find creative ways to fund it. It is eventually going to be needed, so it's time for TN-DOT to revive this project before it's too late.

UPDATE as of 5/31/2020: I no longer believe this is necessary
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on July 21, 2015, 08:49:19 PM
Awesome that I-840 is approved. Will it get signed anytime soon?

I had an idea for funding in that the two Cumberland River Bridges could be tolled both ways to support maintenance similar to the infamous 8$ toll on the Susquehanna River I-95 bridge.

As a side note I could see the TN-386 freeway connected to the new I-840 freeway as part of the project.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: I-39 on July 21, 2015, 09:18:07 PM
Awesome that I-840 is approved. Will it get signed anytime soon?

I had an idea for funding in that the two Cumberland River Bridges could be tolled both ways to support maintenance similar to the infamous 8$ toll on the Susquehanna River I-95 bridge.

As a side note I could see the TN-386 freeway connected to the new I-840 freeway as part of the project.

I'm not sure about when exactly I-840 will be signed. AASHTO approved it on May 15th, but the FHWA still has to approve it.

I am not a fan of tolling, but it may have to be considered here.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on July 21, 2015, 09:21:20 PM
Awesome that I-840 is approved. Will it get signed anytime soon?

I had an idea for funding in that the two Cumberland River Bridges could be tolled both ways to support maintenance similar to the infamous 8$ toll on the Susquehanna River I-95 bridge.

As a side note I could see the TN-386 freeway connected to the new I-840 freeway as part of the project.

I'm not sure about when exactly I-840 will be signed. AASHTO approved it on May 15th, but the FHWA still has to approve it.

I am not a fan of tolling, but it may have to be considered here.

In that case the toll on each bridge could be low like 4 dollars. Since the new road is going to be an interstate it can at least get federal funding. Of course tolling may be the only solution for the bridges. Anyone want to chop at design?
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: SteveG1988 on July 21, 2015, 09:42:32 PM
Awesome that I-840 is approved. Will it get signed anytime soon?

I had an idea for funding in that the two Cumberland River Bridges could be tolled both ways to support maintenance similar to the infamous 8$ toll on the Susquehanna River I-95 bridge.

As a side note I could see the TN-386 freeway connected to the new I-840 freeway as part of the project.

I'm not sure about when exactly I-840 will be signed. AASHTO approved it on May 15th, but the FHWA still has to approve it.

I am not a fan of tolling, but it may have to be considered here.

The I-95 bridge is a toll not for the bridge, but for the entire section of 95 from 695 to Delaware, as that is the JFK Memorial Highway, which is basically the MD turnpike.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on July 21, 2015, 10:26:58 PM
Awesome that I-840 is approved. Will it get signed anytime soon?

I had an idea for funding in that the two Cumberland River Bridges could be tolled both ways to support maintenance similar to the infamous 8$ toll on the Susquehanna River I-95 bridge.

As a side note I could see the TN-386 freeway connected to the new I-840 freeway as part of the project.

I'm not sure about when exactly I-840 will be signed. AASHTO approved it on May 15th, but the FHWA still has to approve it.

I am not a fan of tolling, but it may have to be considered here.

The I-95 bridge is a toll not for the bridge, but for the entire section of 95 from 695 to Delaware, as that is the JFK Memorial Highway, which is basically the MD turnpike.

The point is is that the toll for the road which is collected from the bridge supports the entire roadway. The I-840 north loop would have the two bridges be the toll collectors that support the entire freeway.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: froggie on July 22, 2015, 09:50:04 AM
Current federal law would allow for Tennessee to toll all of a northern I-840 instead of just tolls on the bridges.  I would think this would be the preferred method.

That said, I disagree with the OP in this being a priority.  At best, it would only help a few long-distance drivers utilizing I-24 West or I-65 North.  Where the need/demand is in Nashville is closer to the core.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on July 22, 2015, 09:54:46 AM
How about upgrading Briley Parkway to a freeway from I-40 to I-24. It already has interchanges.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: froggie on July 22, 2015, 10:02:49 AM
Briley already is a freeway north of I-40 on both sides.  If you're referring to the segment near the airport, I believe there are some improvements proposed but I don't think it would result in a full freeway.  As it is, about a dozen years ago TDOT removed a couple of the loops at the 24/Briley interchange because of weaving concerns, making it a 6-ramp par-clo instead.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on July 22, 2015, 10:16:25 AM
Briley already is a freeway north of I-40 on both sides.  If you're referring to the segment near the airport, I believe there are some improvements proposed but I don't think it would result in a full freeway.  As it is, about a dozen years ago TDOT removed a couple of the loops at the 24/Briley interchange because of weaving concerns, making it a 6-ramp par-clo instead.

Yes, I was referrencing the part near the Airport. I could see some improvments at the I-24/Briley Interchange.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Henry on July 22, 2015, 12:03:46 PM
As nice as it would be to have the northern half of I-840 built, it'll probably be a long time before it actually is, if ever. (And this is coming from someone who still wants I-494 built in his hometown.)
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: I-39 on July 22, 2015, 05:44:06 PM
Current federal law would allow for Tennessee to toll all of a northern I-840 instead of just tolls on the bridges.  I would think this would be the preferred method.

That said, I disagree with the OP in this being a priority.  At best, it would only help a few long-distance drivers utilizing I-24 West or I-65 North.  Where the need/demand is in Nashville is closer to the core.

Disagree 100%. It will be used to get to the growing suburbs of Nashville, like Franklin, Spring Hill, Smyrna, Lebanon, etc while bypassing downtown Nashville, where the traffic is getting progressively worse.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: rte66man on July 22, 2015, 08:03:40 PM
Current federal law would allow for Tennessee to toll all of a northern I-840 instead of just tolls on the bridges.  I would think this would be the preferred method.

That said, I disagree with the OP in this being a priority.  At best, it would only help a few long-distance drivers utilizing I-24 West or I-65 North.  Where the need/demand is in Nashville is closer to the core.

Disagree 100%. It will be used to get to the growing suburbs of Nashville, like Franklin, Spring Hill, Smyrna, Lebanon, etc while bypassing downtown Nashville, where the traffic is getting progressively worse.

Not gonna happen. If I live in Greenbrier and want to go to Franklin, I'm NOT going to drive to Dickson to get there regardless of the traffic.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Avalanchez71 on July 22, 2015, 09:03:55 PM
There is no political climate in Tennessee for the northern loop.  The idea of a toll bridge nearly cost an election for a state Senator some years ago.  I do not see any toll bridges anytime soon and the northern loop is history just like I-420 in Atlanta.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: froggie on July 23, 2015, 07:33:16 AM
Quote from: I-39
Disagree 100%. It will be used to get to the growing suburbs of Nashville, like Franklin, Spring Hill, Smyrna, Lebanon, etc while bypassing downtown Nashville, where the traffic is getting progressively worse.

rte66man pointed out the difficulty in the proposed northern loop routing.  Not worth it for the suburbs as it'd be too difficult to access.  Drivers closer in have Briley Pkwy as a bypass for downtown Nashville and through traffic has another bypass route:  the existing southern loop (TN 840).  In short, the "Northern Loop" is not worth it and TDOT would do far better to spend their money on other projects.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: codyg1985 on July 23, 2015, 07:54:06 AM
Widening I-65 between Vietnam Veterans and the Kentucky state line should be a higher priority. Also, adding capacity to the I-24/65 concurrency close to Nashville. As froggie mentioned, there are more needs closer to downtown. It would be nice for through traffic between I-65 north and I-24 east and I-40 west to have a bypass since there is a lot of truck traffic from I-65 going towards Memphis and Atlanta, but Briley Parkway could be used for that purpose. The western segment is underutilized at the moment, and a lot of that is probably due to the lack of signage directing through traffic to use it. Upgrading Briley south to I-24 would help a lot to remove through traffic from the downtown area, too. 

If I recall, I think part of the reasoning behind shelving it was due to environmental concerns. You are crossing the Cumberland River twice, and traversing more difficult terrain. It took a long time to finish TN 840 in western Williamson County partly due to that reason.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: hbelkins on July 23, 2015, 02:33:27 PM
Won't the improvements to TN 109 effectively allow it to serve as a route between I-65 southbound to I-24 eastbound?
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: InterstatesRules445 on July 23, 2015, 05:45:02 PM
Awesome that I-840 is approved. Will it get signed anytime soon?

I had an idea for funding in that the two Cumberland River Bridges could be tolled both ways to support maintenance similar to the infamous 8$ toll on the Susquehanna River I-95 bridge.

As a side note I could see the TN-386 freeway connected to the new I-840 freeway as part of the project.

I'm not sure about when exactly I-840 will be signed. AASHTO approved it on May 15th, but the FHWA still has to approve it.

I pretty sure it will be approve by FHWA. I think they will get the upgrade done right away. I-840 should be signed by 2019.

I am not a fan of tolling, but it may have to be considered here.


The I-95 bridge is a toll not for the bridge, but for the entire section of 95 from 695 to Delaware, as that is the JFK Memorial Highway, which is basically the MD turnpike.

The point is is that the toll for the road which is collected from the bridge supports the entire roadway. The I-840 north loop would have the two bridges be the toll collectors that support the entire freeway.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Avalanchez71 on July 23, 2015, 11:00:42 PM
Won't the improvements to TN 109 effectively allow it to serve as a route between I-65 southbound to I-24 eastbound?

Yes this is correct.  There are very few red lights.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 24, 2015, 05:19:22 PM
It's about time the road became Interstate 840!
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: I-39 on July 24, 2015, 05:34:12 PM
Current federal law would allow for Tennessee to toll all of a northern I-840 instead of just tolls on the bridges.  I would think this would be the preferred method.

That said, I disagree with the OP in this being a priority.  At best, it would only help a few long-distance drivers utilizing I-24 West or I-65 North.  Where the need/demand is in Nashville is closer to the core.

Disagree 100%. It will be used to get to the growing suburbs of Nashville, like Franklin, Spring Hill, Smyrna, Lebanon, etc while bypassing downtown Nashville, where the traffic is getting progressively worse.

Not gonna happen. If I live in Greenbrier and want to go to Franklin, I'm NOT going to drive to Dickson to get there regardless of the traffic.

But if I'm coming down I-24 from Illinois and want to get to Franklin, I most certainly would use I-840, especially if I want to avoid Nashville during rush hour.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: froggie on July 27, 2015, 10:59:06 PM
And the likelihood of there being other drivers like you is rather small.  Certainly not worth the cost and environmental effect of a new northern loop freeway.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: hbelkins on July 28, 2015, 11:33:42 AM
It would be interesting to know where the eastbound traffic on I-24 goes. How much of it stays on I-24, how much goes east on I-40 and how much goes south on I-65?
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: codyg1985 on July 28, 2015, 12:37:18 PM
Just a stab in the dark, but I would guess 80% stays on I-24, 15% goes to I-65, and the other 5% goes on I-40.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: SteveG1988 on July 28, 2015, 01:43:50 PM
Most of the time when i'm coming through there in the truck i'm on 65 connecting to 24, or 24 connecting to 65, or 40 going to 40, occasionally 40 to 65 north, rarely 40 to 65 south, as if i'm going to 65 south most of the time i'm actually going to use 22 to get to birmigham.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 28, 2015, 07:16:41 PM
My intuition is Nashville was lucky to get the southern half of 840 constructed. The likelihood of the northern half ever being constructed seems far-fetched to me.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Avalanchez71 on July 28, 2015, 08:08:35 PM
I can tell you that the political climate is not anywhere close to having a northern portion of SR 840 being built anytime soon. 
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: codyg1985 on July 29, 2015, 07:43:52 AM
Improvements to TN 109 will be the best interim solution. Also, sign the darn thing (along with TN 840) on either end as a bypass or alternate around Nashville to reach I-65 North of I-24 East. Briley should get the same treatment since it is not signed as an interstate.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: froggie on July 31, 2015, 12:40:05 AM
Quote
It would be interesting to know where the eastbound traffic on I-24 goes. How much of it stays on I-24, how much goes east on I-40 and how much goes south on I-65?

I'm assuming you're asking about through traffic here.  I would expect that a majority of overall eastbound 24 traffic has a destination somewhere in the Nashville area.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: hbelkins on July 31, 2015, 10:00:22 PM
Quote
It would be interesting to know where the eastbound traffic on I-24 goes. How much of it stays on I-24, how much goes east on I-40 and how much goes south on I-65?

I'm assuming you're asking about through traffic here.  I would expect that a majority of overall eastbound 24 traffic has a destination somewhere in the Nashville area.

Yep, because the northern leg of 840 wouldn't help local traffic at all.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 03, 2015, 03:08:47 PM
The northern half of 840 is dead and likely always will be.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: jpi on August 04, 2015, 10:35:34 PM
Hi Guys, been out of the loop for several weeks due to my BIG road trip and then a death in my family. I can tell you this, northern 840 is dead in the water. What little bit of funding TDOT had for this is concentrated on TN 109 to bring up to 4 lane "app corridor" standards (they just started working on the direct exit with I-65 at the state line) Hartsville Pike (TN 141) and other projects. Briley Parkway (TN-153) is perfectly fine for a northern by-pass. The only thing I can see as a benefit is if the western end of 840 gets extended to I-24 near the Adams exit and even that is far fetched. I am glad to see 840 is going to be "promoted" now hopefully I will see proper control city signage along there.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: hbelkins on August 05, 2015, 02:55:39 PM
A direct exit for TN 109 seems like overkill to me. Why couldn't they have tied TN 109 into US 31W so that the through movement is US 31W south to TN 109 south (like they did with US 127 and TN 111, where the intersection is actually in Kentucky) and then sign the US 31W Exit 1 in Kentucky for "To TN 109 (insert cities here)?
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: I-39 on August 11, 2015, 03:27:06 PM
Hi Guys, been out of the loop for several weeks due to my BIG road trip and then a death in my family. I can tell you this, northern 840 is dead in the water. What little bit of funding TDOT had for this is concentrated on TN 109 to bring up to 4 lane "app corridor" standards (they just started working on the direct exit with I-65 at the state line) Hartsville Pike (TN 141) and other projects. Briley Parkway (TN-153) is perfectly fine for a northern by-pass. The only thing I can see as a benefit is if the western end of 840 gets extended to I-24 near the Adams exit and even that is far fetched. I am glad to see 840 is going to be "promoted" now hopefully I will see proper control city signage along there.

Yes, even if the whole thing is not constructed, at least build the western (northern) portion between I-24 and I-40 from just southeast of Clarksville to Dickson.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: wriddle082 on August 13, 2015, 07:17:59 AM
Hi Guys, been out of the loop for several weeks due to my BIG road trip and then a death in my family. I can tell you this, northern 840 is dead in the water. What little bit of funding TDOT had for this is concentrated on TN 109 to bring up to 4 lane "app corridor" standards (they just started working on the direct exit with I-65 at the state line) Hartsville Pike (TN 141) and other projects. Briley Parkway (TN-153) is perfectly fine for a northern by-pass. The only thing I can see as a benefit is if the western end of 840 gets extended to I-24 near the Adams exit and even that is far fetched. I am glad to see 840 is going to be "promoted" now hopefully I will see proper control city signage along there.

Yes, even if the whole thing is not constructed, at least build the western (northern) portion between I-24 and I-40 from just southeast of Clarksville to Dickson.

I agree 100% because it seems no improvements are being talked about for TN 48 b/w Dickson and Clarksville, which is a pretty dangerous road with a history of fatal accidents.  Both my father and brother who live in Dickson Co make semi-regular trips to Clarksville for work.  This would help tremendously, and better tie those two areas together.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: dvferyance on June 12, 2016, 04:51:27 PM
Look at how long it took to build the southern half. At least Briley Parkway gives Nashville somewhat of a northern bypass.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 13, 2016, 05:17:59 PM
I think it is about time SR 840 became Interstate 840.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: LM117 on June 13, 2016, 06:06:21 PM
I think it is about time SR 840 became Interstate 840.

If I'm not mistaken, I think TDOT sent an application to AASHTO to sign it as I-840 about a year or two ago, but something went wrong with the application or some shit like that. I'm sure somebody on the forum knows more about it. And yes, I agree it should be signed as I-840.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: rte66man on June 13, 2016, 06:58:51 PM
After 20 years of traveleing from Memphis to the Greenbrier/Springfield area, I've come to realize that the NW leg of TN840 would prove of benefit both to local traffic as well as traffic from points west of Memphis to points north on 65:


(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7534/27376749960_d18e11b572.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HHbZYm)

While the orange route would likely be cheaper, the blue route could also serve as part of the southern Clarksville bypass. I realize this won't happen in my lifetime, but it sure wold have saved me lots of heartburn over the routes I take today.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 13, 2016, 10:16:09 PM
I don't feel like it is very feasible.  Where is the money going to come from?
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Henry on June 14, 2016, 10:42:42 AM
I think the southern half is enough, and isn't there still a lot of NIMBY opposition to the northern half anyway?
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: wdcrft63 on June 14, 2016, 02:36:11 PM
I think it is about time SR 840 became Interstate 840.

If I'm not mistaken, I think TDOT sent an application to AASHTO to sign it as I-840 about a year or two ago, but something went wrong with the application or some shit like that. I'm sure somebody on the forum knows more about it. And yes, I agree it should be signed as I-840.
Following is from Wikipedia on Tennessee State Route 840:

Quote
In 2015, TDOT submitted a request to AASHTO to redesignate SR 840 as I-840. Though the application had an error that required TDOT to refile it, AASHTO conditionally approved it and submitted it to the FHWA for their approval.[7][8] FHWA approved the change on July 22, 2015, and AASHTO finalized their approval on September 25, 2015.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: codyg1985 on June 14, 2016, 02:50:26 PM
As of right now I have not seen or heard of any signs being placed along TN 840 reflecting the change.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: mvak36 on June 14, 2016, 04:09:01 PM
When I emailed them last year, here is what they replied.

Quote
The project to change the signs will start at the beginning of 2016. As soon as the schedule is received by the Regional Traffic office, our crews will begin replacing these signs.

Don't know why it's been delayed.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: LM117 on June 14, 2016, 04:42:37 PM
I think it is about time SR 840 became Interstate 840.

If I'm not mistaken, I think TDOT sent an application to AASHTO to sign it as I-840 about a year or two ago, but something went wrong with the application or some shit like that. I'm sure somebody on the forum knows more about it. And yes, I agree it should be signed as I-840.
Following is from Wikipedia on Tennessee State Route 840:

Quote
In 2015, TDOT submitted a request to AASHTO to redesignate SR 840 as I-840. Though the application had an error that required TDOT to refile it, AASHTO conditionally approved it and submitted it to the FHWA for their approval.[7][8] FHWA approved the change on July 22, 2015, and AASHTO finalized their approval on September 25, 2015.

Welp, that's what I get for not checking Wikipedia.   :banghead: I haven't checked on it's status since last spring. Thanks for dragging me from under my rock. :pan:
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: I-39 on June 14, 2016, 09:06:35 PM
Like I've said, building the section between I-24 and I-40 would be of great benefit for traffic attempting to bypass Nashville.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: tidecat on June 14, 2016, 10:21:18 PM
Just give me a bypass of I-65 - doesn't even need to be a full loop.


iPhone
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sparker on June 15, 2016, 04:08:04 PM
Just a thought -- extend the trajectory of 840 north from its present east end at I-40, staying more or less along 231 into Kentucky, then tying it in to the south end of the Natcher.  Nice N-S bypass of Nashville, relieving 65.  Probably be more useful than a full loop. (Mods, please move this to Fictional if you so choose!).
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 15, 2016, 04:41:58 PM
sparker's proposal is beyond Fictional Highways.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sparker on June 15, 2016, 06:53:25 PM
Except for the "slim & none" likelihood that it, like essentially every other north-of-Nashville alternative, will ever be developed, what, aside from the issues of inter-state coordination, places the Natcher - 840 connection "beyond fictional"?  Its overall north-south axis (considering a 65 junction at either end) is approximately the same as the current 840 east-west distance -- and it seems that a cutoff between 24 and northward 65 would certainly be useful to pull traffic away from central Nashville (every time I've gone through there, usually using 40 and 440, it's been a mess!).   Again, if anyone wants to slide this concept into fictional, go for it!
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: HPfromTN on June 21, 2018, 08:17:07 PM
The Northern Loop of I-840 may have another life yet.  Gubernatorial candidate Diane Black has begun airing radio ads saying she will build the northern loop of 840 and then double deck the interstates in downtown Nashville.  She is steadfastly against light rail transportation and supports building this new road that was planned and never went past the planning stage.

Since this thread began 3 years ago, the traffic congestion through Nashville has gone from bad to worse.  It took me over an hour and a half to drive from Donelson to Bellevue more than once in recent months.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Brooks on June 24, 2018, 01:08:20 PM
The Northern Loop of I-840 may have another life yet.  Gubernatorial candidate Diane Black has begun airing radio ads saying she will build the northern loop of 840 and then double deck the interstates in downtown Nashville.  She is steadfastly against light rail transportation and supports building this new road that was planned and never went past the planning stage.

Since this thread began 3 years ago, the traffic congestion through Nashville has gone from bad to worse.  It took me over an hour and a half to drive from Donelson to Bellevue more than once in recent months.

This is nothing more than a desperate attempt at a “voter grab”.  Diane Black doesn’t know what the hell she’s talking about when it comes to transportation infrastructure (and other things too, see this news article  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/29/diane-black-pornography-root-cause-school-shootings/654049002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/29/diane-black-pornography-root-cause-school-shootings/654049002/)).  She has no idea of the sheer cost that double decking downtown freeways and building out the northern I-840 loop would have.  There is even a quote of her saying “billion dollar liberal boondoggles are not the solution”. Well, Diane, how about your wonderful multi-billion dollar boondoggle?  To get back on topic and end my political mini-rant, I believe that the only area this northern loop has any merit is from Lebanon to Gallatin (and up to I-65). However, the improvements and widening of SR 109 should be sufficient.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: dvferyance on June 24, 2018, 04:52:30 PM
The Northern Loop of I-840 may have another life yet.  Gubernatorial candidate Diane Black has begun airing radio ads saying she will build the northern loop of 840 and then double deck the interstates in downtown Nashville.  She is steadfastly against light rail transportation and supports building this new road that was planned and never went past the planning stage.

Since this thread began 3 years ago, the traffic congestion through Nashville has gone from bad to worse.  It took me over an hour and a half to drive from Donelson to Bellevue more than once in recent months.

This is nothing more than a desperate attempt at a “voter grab”.  Diane Black doesn’t know what the hell she’s talking about when it comes to transportation infrastructure (and other things too, see this news article  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/29/diane-black-pornography-root-cause-school-shootings/654049002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/29/diane-black-pornography-root-cause-school-shootings/654049002/)).  She has no idea of the sheer cost that double decking downtown freeways and building out the northern I-840 loop would have.  There is even a quote of her saying “billion dollar liberal boondoggles are not the solution”. Well, Diane, how about your wonderful multi-billion dollar boondoggle?  To get back on topic and end my political mini-rant, I believe that the only area this northern loop has any merit is from Lebanon to Gallatin (and up to I-65). However, the improvements and widening of SR 109 should be sufficient.
Anything that a politician says is to get votes. Nothing out of the ordinary here.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sparker on June 24, 2018, 09:02:19 PM
The Northern Loop of I-840 may have another life yet.  Gubernatorial candidate Diane Black has begun airing radio ads saying she will build the northern loop of 840 and then double deck the interstates in downtown Nashville.  She is steadfastly against light rail transportation and supports building this new road that was planned and never went past the planning stage.

Since this thread began 3 years ago, the traffic congestion through Nashville has gone from bad to worse.  It took me over an hour and a half to drive from Donelson to Bellevue more than once in recent months.

This is nothing more than a desperate attempt at a “voter grab”.  Diane Black doesn’t know what the hell she’s talking about when it comes to transportation infrastructure (and other things too, see this news article  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/29/diane-black-pornography-root-cause-school-shootings/654049002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/29/diane-black-pornography-root-cause-school-shootings/654049002/)).  She has no idea of the sheer cost that double decking downtown freeways and building out the northern I-840 loop would have.  There is even a quote of her saying “billion dollar liberal boondoggles are not the solution”. Well, Diane, how about your wonderful multi-billion dollar boondoggle?  To get back on topic and end my political mini-rant, I believe that the only area this northern loop has any merit is from Lebanon to Gallatin (and up to I-65). However, the improvements and widening of SR 109 should be sufficient.
Anything that a politician says is to get votes. Nothing out of the ordinary here.

Obviously someone who's merely attempting to appeal to her "base" (public mass transit geared toward not her base=bad; public funds directed toward projects appealing to her supposed backers in the 'burbs=good); agreed that there's nothing out of the ordinary to report here.  But the notion of extending at least the eastern end of I-840 north to meet I-65 -- and thus create a bypass for I-65 as well as I-40 -- does have merit.  Such would likely go a long way to quell any "doubledecking" talk in the urban core; and accomplish something that cheaping out with spot fixes on TN 109 won't even begin to do -- provide an efficient alternate route for another direction of through traffic. 
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: HPfromTN on July 13, 2018, 01:37:24 PM
Black's Lane not Trains ad probably earned her some new support, because the ridiculous light rail plan would have been a joke, and the voters saw it for what it was--a chance to allow a campaign contributor to win the bid to do the work for more than a decade.  Also, the I-840 northern extension can only help her receive more support in the very populated bedroom counties of Sumner, Wilson, Robertson, and Dickson.  For 30 years, candidates promised to improve US 64 across southern Tennessee, because business was seeing their customers travel US-72 from Memphis to Chattanooga or take I-40 to I-24 through Nashville.  Many governor's races came and went with 64 seeing no improvements.  It finally happened, but by then, I-840 had shaved off enough time in the bypass of Nashville to not help with tourism.

The traffic issue is real.  With 100 people moving to Nashville every day, you can see the congestion accumulate over a period of about 6 months.  Every 6 months, our 8-mile commute gets about 2 or 3 minutes longer on some mornings and some afternoons.  It there is a wreck, then you better know 4 or 5 alternate detours.

We live in the Bellevue/West Meade area.  My wife had to go to Donelson on Thursday evenings to teach a class at 6:30 PM.  When she started doing this, the commute was maybe 35-40 minutes.  By the time she gave it up, the commute at that time of day was between an hour and 15 and an hour and a half.  Earlier this year, we had to rent a car for a Route 66 Road Tour.  When we came home and unpacked, we had 2 hours to get the car back to the airport before being charged an extra day.  I-440 was totally stopped, and Briley Parkway was going about 5-10 miles per hour.  We almost didn't make it in time.  It took an hour and 50 ridiculous minutes to go 24 miles.

The city has too much sprawl for rail to ever be effective unless CSX becomes a good neighbor and allows commuter trains on their spider web of track.  They won't even give their okay to have the Hillwood Blvd. bridge over their track and Richland Creek to be torn down and replaced, before it comes down on its own like what happened in Minneapolis in the last decade.

The only logical solution for a city like Nashville is to add more lanes.  The dumb idea of having light rail running down the middle of major thoroughfares and severely limiting left turns made Congressman Black's commercials very effective in this area, and this area might determine which way her primary goes.  She's currently nursing a small lead over Boyd in the polls with Beth Harwell and Bill Lee well back.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Life in Paradise on July 13, 2018, 02:26:07 PM
Due to the terrain issues, the Nashville problem will continue.  It is one of those major metropolitan areas that has and will have an insufficient auto transit network, although they have tried to make improvements.  (I remember the days of the four lane Briley Parkway that dead ended into US 31 on the north side).  It could not hurt for through traffic to have alternative routes.  The "northeast leg" of I-840 would help if it went up the TN-109 corridor as it could and perhaps route back to I-65 north of White House.  They also could use some sort of cross route north of Goodletesville between I-65 and I-24, but again you run into some terrain issues, as you would south of I-24 torwards I-40.  They pulled out I-840 so far that it doesn't really help metro Nashville traffic as much as bypassing through traffic.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sparker on July 13, 2018, 04:05:53 PM
Due to the terrain issues, the Nashville problem will continue.  It is one of those major metropolitan areas that has and will have an insufficient auto transit network, although they have tried to make improvements.  (I remember the days of the four lane Briley Parkway that dead ended into US 31 on the north side).  It could not hurt for through traffic to have alternative routes.  The "northeast leg" of I-840 would help if it went up the TN-109 corridor as it could and perhaps route back to I-65 north of White House.  They also could use some sort of cross route north of Goodletesville between I-65 and I-24, but again you run into some terrain issues, as you would south of I-24 torwards I-40.  They pulled out I-840 so far that it doesn't really help metro Nashville traffic as much as bypassing through traffic.

The whole Cumberland Plateau area is one large "terrain issue"; when you've got hills and rivers in relatively deep gorges, there's going to be a lot of cut, fill, and structures to deploy.  Of course, avoiding the worst of it -- like with the southern arc of I-840 -- does lend itself to shorter-term feasibililty  (which is why that section is completed and operational!).  No doubt it will take considerably more effort to build anything north of I-40 -- but in the long haul, at least extending the eastern leg of I-840 north parallel to TN 109 and up to I-65 would likely prove to be a worthwhile enterprise, as it will then provide a N-S bypass for I-65 as well as I-40, potentially diverting through traffic, particularly of the commercial variety, away from downtown Nashville.  Doing likewise for I-24 would be much more problematic and involve much more expense; IMO, the most stratightforward extension as described above would provide the most regional "bang for the buck", so to speak.   
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: hbelkins on July 14, 2018, 07:46:45 PM
Black's Lane not Trains ad probably earned her some new support, because the ridiculous light rail plan would have been a joke, and the voters saw it for what it was--a chance to allow a campaign contributor to win the bid to do the work for more than a decade.  Also, the I-840 northern extension can only help her receive more support in the very populated bedroom counties of Sumner, Wilson, Robertson, and Dickson.  For 30 years, candidates promised to improve US 64 across southern Tennessee, because business was seeing their customers travel US-72 from Memphis to Chattanooga or take I-40 to I-24 through Nashville.  Many governor's races came and went with 64 seeing no improvements.  It finally happened, but by then, I-840 had shaved off enough time in the bypass of Nashville to not help with tourism.

I've only driven bits and pieces of US 64 across the southern tier of the state, but it has a problem that it shares with a lot of other Tennessee four-lane surface artierials. That being a lot of five-lane sections with a TWLTL and a 45 mph speed limit.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: LM117 on July 15, 2018, 05:03:12 AM
The city has too much sprawl for rail to ever be effective unless CSX becomes a good neighbor and allows commuter trains on their spider web of track.  They won't even give their okay to have the Hillwood Blvd. bridge over their track and Richland Creek to be torn down and replaced, before it comes down on its own like what happened in Minneapolis in the last decade.

Doesn’t surprise me. CSX isn’t known for playing well with others.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sparker on July 15, 2018, 07:56:49 PM
The city has too much sprawl for rail to ever be effective unless CSX becomes a good neighbor and allows commuter trains on their spider web of track.  They won't even give their okay to have the Hillwood Blvd. bridge over their track and Richland Creek to be torn down and replaced, before it comes down on its own like what happened in Minneapolis in the last decade.

Doesn’t surprise me. CSX isn’t known for playing well with others.

From past history of commute-rail deployment over existing freight rail lines, the RR company involved will invariably "ask for the moon" in terms of publicly-funded track expansion and improvement, air-tight signaling and safety measures (these days, that means PTC for all new installations of the sort), and effective market-rate "rent" for the use of their ROW.  Seeing as how CSX has a monopoly on regional trackage (except the old TC line to the east, now sporadically used for tourism), they would definitely be in the "catbird" seat regarding any commuter aspirations.  That being said -- now that Hunter Harrison's gone (RIP), CSX seems to have "mellowed" just a tad; their reduced coal traffic seems to have made them aware that they're not alone in the transportation world.  But all major railroads still tend to play hardball with cities trying to install commuter rail; it's not impossible, just a lot of trouble & expense, especially when starting from scratch!
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: codyg1985 on July 16, 2018, 07:35:07 AM
Black's Lane not Trains ad probably earned her some new support, because the ridiculous light rail plan would have been a joke, and the voters saw it for what it was--a chance to allow a campaign contributor to win the bid to do the work for more than a decade.  Also, the I-840 northern extension can only help her receive more support in the very populated bedroom counties of Sumner, Wilson, Robertson, and Dickson.  For 30 years, candidates promised to improve US 64 across southern Tennessee, because business was seeing their customers travel US-72 from Memphis to Chattanooga or take I-40 to I-24 through Nashville.  Many governor's races came and went with 64 seeing no improvements.  It finally happened, but by then, I-840 had shaved off enough time in the bypass of Nashville to not help with tourism.

I've only driven bits and pieces of US 64 across the southern tier of the state, but it has a problem that it shares with a lot of other Tennessee four-lane surface artierials. That being a lot of five-lane sections with a TWLTL and a 45 mph speed limit.

Another issue being that the improved route often requires exiting the existing route to avoid going into the city being bypassed (Fayetteville, TN being an example) or to avoid staying on another route (Selmer, TN being an example)
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: SPAdriver on July 16, 2018, 04:27:42 PM
A lot of people in Atlanta wish now that the "Northern Arc" had been built.  Nashville ought to take note of that situation and at least start planning for an extension of I-840 before its too late. 
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Team445 on May 16, 2020, 01:04:17 AM
A high speed train would be ideal.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sparker on May 18, 2020, 02:55:26 PM
A high speed train would be ideal.

Yet unbelievably -- and undeniably -- expensive.  And we're talking about a train functionally replacing the bypass loop extension that's the subject of this thread.  Commute rail is almost universally hub/spoke in nature, not peripheral.  HSR is reserved for interregional purposes -- but as we out here in CA have witnessed, far easier said than done!  Bypasses like I-840 have 2 purposes -- divert through traffic away from city centers, and render commuting to exurbs easier (the latter concept largely objectionable to urban activists).  That and HSR aren't even apples & oranges -- their scope and purpose are in two separate realms.   
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Team445 on May 20, 2020, 10:28:56 AM
A high speed train would be ideal.

Yet unbelievably -- and undeniably -- expensive.  And we're talking about a train functionally replacing the bypass loop extension that's the subject of this thread.  Commute rail is almost universally hub/spoke in nature, not peripheral.  HSR is reserved for interregional purposes -- but as we out here in CA have witnessed, far easier said than done!  Bypasses like I-840 have 2 purposes -- divert through traffic away from city centers, and render commuting to exurbs easier (the latter concept largely objectionable to urban activists).  That and HSR aren't even apples & oranges -- their scope and purpose are in two separate realms.   

Its just what happened with the Music City Star. I-40 from Lebanon to Nashville is being widened.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Brooks on May 21, 2020, 12:54:17 PM
Can’t believe useless projects like northern I-840 are still even being considered while Lamar Ave. crumbles underneath heavy truck traffic and gross underinvestment.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: MikieTimT on May 21, 2020, 01:13:55 PM
Can’t believe useless projects like northern I-840 are still even being considered while Lamar Ave. crumbles underneath heavy truck traffic and gross underinvestment.

That ship has likely sailed with I-22 stopping at I-269 instead of I-240.  I find that stretch of US-78 so horrible and depressing now, that I bypass it with I-269/I-55 at the expense of some miles and a little bit of time.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sprjus4 on May 21, 2020, 01:19:30 PM
Can’t believe useless projects like northern I-840 are still even being considered while Lamar Ave. crumbles underneath heavy truck traffic and gross underinvestment.

That ship has likely sailed with I-22 stopping at I-269 instead of I-240.  I find that stretch of US-78 so horrible and depressing now, that I bypass it with I-269/I-55 at the expense of some miles and a little bit of time.
Even Google recommends it as the quickest route. I haven't driven up from that way, but it would be a no brainer to take I-269 and I-55 as opposed to US-78.
Title: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Brooks on May 21, 2020, 01:30:14 PM
Just because it’s not going to become an interstate doesn’t mean it should merely be ignored. Just because out of state travelers don’t typically use this highway doesn’t mean nobody uses it. Does the ugly appearance and lack of an interstate designation mean we should just pretend this highway doesn’t exist? That truck traffic isn’t going anywhere. With the amount of distribution facilities and warehouses in the vicinity (and with several that are new or in development) the traffic will only get worse unless something is done. However, it does not surprise me that a project with microscopic importance to Nashville will win out over one with major strategic importance to Memphis. TN loves to pretend that Memphis isn’t a part of their state, even though the economic numbers speak for themselves.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sprjus4 on May 21, 2020, 01:38:08 PM
Ideally, US-78 should be upgraded to freeway standards up to I-240 (or at least a Jersey freeway) but it would involve a major undertaking to make such a project possible including significant right of way acquisition and high cost.

I don't think there's any official proposals to complete the northern half of I-840, but if it was done, it would provide a bypass for I-24 and I-65 thru traffic to avoid Nashville entirely. The project has -some- warrant.

I agree US-78 is certainly of more importance.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: dvferyance on May 21, 2020, 01:56:04 PM
Can’t believe useless projects like northern I-840 are still even being considered while Lamar Ave. crumbles underneath heavy truck traffic and gross underinvestment.
You apparently have never been to Nashville during rush hour. With Nashville growing like leaps and bounds a full beltway is by no means useless.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Brooks on May 21, 2020, 02:05:00 PM
I travel through Nashville whenever I am headed to Kentucky or points north (roughly once every 2 months) and from the experiences I’ve had, unless you’re driving through in the middle of rush hour, Briley Pkwy is more than sufficient for my route (coming in from Memphis on I-40 heading towards I-65 north to the Kentucky line). It could definitely use some work (shoulders, auxiliary lanes, etc.) but while a northern I-840 might not be “useless”, it would definitely be a highly underused boondoggle. I’d venture to guess you have not traveled down Lamar Ave before.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sparker on May 21, 2020, 08:20:46 PM
Can’t believe useless projects like northern I-840 are still even being considered while Lamar Ave. crumbles underneath heavy truck traffic and gross underinvestment.

That ship has likely sailed with I-22 stopping at I-269 instead of I-240.  I find that stretch of US-78 so horrible and depressing now, that I bypass it with I-269/I-55 at the expense of some miles and a little bit of time.
Even Google recommends it as the quickest route. I haven't driven up from that way, but it would be a no brainer to take I-269 and I-55 as opposed to US-78.

That's for sure; "depressing" is an apt term for Lamar Ave.  I only wish 55/269 had been in place when I was making 3-4 trips a year through there on my way to and from Atlanta when my GF was taking care of her dad there circa 2000-01.  Unless your idea of scenery is a combination of rusty buildings and grass gone to weeds, it's one stretch to avoid!
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sprjus4 on May 21, 2020, 10:02:50 PM
That’s a good point, there was not an alternate, freeway connection before I-269 opened. Now both the I-269 / I-55 connection along with I-269 / TN-385 provide freeway connections between I-22 and I-240.

Now, does that eliminate the need for improvements on US-71? No. There’s interchange projects planned / underway, and eventually the corridor will warrant a full freeway upgrade. However, having network redundancies and alternate freeway corridors available, that could’ve helped to divert some traffic and also allow thru traffic to bypass that segment entirely.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: formulanone on May 21, 2020, 10:12:12 PM
I travel through Nashville whenever I am headed to Kentucky or points north (roughly once every 2 months) and from the experiences I’ve had, unless you’re driving through in the middle of rush hour, Briley Pkwy is more than sufficient for my route (coming in from Memphis on I-40 heading towards I-65 north to the Kentucky line). It could definitely use some work (shoulders, auxiliary lanes, etc.) but while a northern I-840 might not be “useless”, it would definitely be a highly underused boondoggle. I’d venture to guess you have not traveled down Lamar Ave before.

I think the problem with I-840 is that it extends out way too far in each direction; it's convenient for northbound I-65 travelers well south of Nashville who are headed to points east/west on I-40, but it doesn't seem to be a genuine bypass. It's roughly twice the radius of a useful ring road, but I suppose that would put it smack dab in Franklin, so that wouldn't have happened.

In 25 years they'll be glad they built it, but I don't think it would solve that many issues with the knotted up design of I-24/40/65, because cars and trucks actually have to get to Nashville proper. I'll settle for an arc that completes it to I-24 towards Clarksdale Clarksville.

Also, Briley Parkway doesn't have a real connection to I-65, and will never be a 4-lane road west of I-65 and south of I-440 on its present alignment.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sprjus4 on May 21, 2020, 11:03:23 PM
Even with it extending further away than the direct I-40 routing through Nashville, it sure is a useful east-west route to avoid the city, notably during rush hour. Even with 5 or 10 minutes added, still worth it IMO. If they built it closer, it may well get developed on and become yet another local freeway as many loops have become.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sparker on May 22, 2020, 03:57:21 AM
Even with it extending further away than the direct I-40 routing through Nashville, it sure is a useful east-west route to avoid the city, notably during rush hour. Even with 5 or 10 minutes added, still worth it IMO. If they built it closer, it may well get developed on and become yet another local freeway as many loops have become.

A lot of that depends upon zoning along the freeway's path -- some jurisdictions want to maximize their taxing potential, so they regularly approve businesses at interchanges and often housing along the freeway sections between those interchanges -- to reap a combination of property taxes as well as sales taxes.  Ironically, opposition to such is one of the only intrinsically good things about NIMBY activity -- if the area traversed by the freeway features larger properties with invariably wealthier ownership -- with corresponding political clout -- large-scale development may be stifled by towns and counties heeding NIMBY complaints (or being internally dominated by NIMBY's to begin with!) who can put a big kibosh on extensive development in order to maintain their local ambience and/or isolation/privacy.  I haven't driven on I-840, so the only graphic info I have is GSV -- but for the most part it appears that development along that route is decidedly limited; whether this is simply the economics attached to such an outer bypass or active involvement by locals is something that might deserve discussion -- maybe someone with more recent experience in the area can tap in here! 
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: wriddle082 on May 22, 2020, 09:39:07 PM
Even with it extending further away than the direct I-40 routing through Nashville, it sure is a useful east-west route to avoid the city, notably during rush hour. Even with 5 or 10 minutes added, still worth it IMO. If they built it closer, it may well get developed on and become yet another local freeway as many loops have become.

A lot of that depends upon zoning along the freeway's path -- some jurisdictions want to maximize their taxing potential, so they regularly approve businesses at interchanges and often housing along the freeway sections between those interchanges -- to reap a combination of property taxes as well as sales taxes.  Ironically, opposition to such is one of the only intrinsically good things about NIMBY activity -- if the area traversed by the freeway features larger properties with invariably wealthier ownership -- with corresponding political clout -- large-scale development may be stifled by towns and counties heeding NIMBY complaints (or being internally dominated by NIMBY's to begin with!) who can put a big kibosh on extensive development in order to maintain their local ambience and/or isolation/privacy.  I haven't driven on I-840, so the only graphic info I have is GSV -- but for the most part it appears that development along that route is decidedly limited; whether this is simply the economics attached to such an outer bypass or active involvement by locals is something that might deserve discussion -- maybe someone with more recent experience in the area can tap in here! 

Since 840’s completion, the only jurisdiction that has zoned any sort of development along the route has been Wilson County.  A high school was built near the TN 265/109 interchange, as well as several warehouses.  Warehouses were also built at the Couchville Pike exit.  It was all spurred by the sewer lines that were extended to the (now defunct) Nashville Superspeedway at the Wilson/Rutherford Co line.  Rutherford Co residents were against building it so it all ended up in Wilson Co.  There doesn’t seem to be very much development at all at any of the Rutherford Co interchanges, but they did have one new exit built later on for Veterans Pkwy.  As for Williamson Co, they built a high school at the US 31 exit, and that’s it.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: rte66man on May 25, 2020, 09:26:43 AM
I travel through Nashville whenever I am headed to Kentucky or points north (roughly once every 2 months) and from the experiences I’ve had, unless you’re driving through in the middle of rush hour, Briley Pkwy is more than sufficient for my route (coming in from Memphis on I-40 heading towards I-65 north to the Kentucky line). It could definitely use some work (shoulders, auxiliary lanes, etc.) but while a northern I-840 might not be “useless”, it would definitely be a highly underused boondoggle. I’d venture to guess you have not traveled down Lamar Ave before.

I think the problem with I-840 is that it extends out way too far in each direction; it's convenient for northbound I-65 travelers well south of Nashville who are headed to points east/west on I-40, but it doesn't seem to be a genuine bypass. It's roughly twice the radius of a useful ring road, but I suppose that would put it smack dab in Franklin, so that wouldn't have happened.

In 25 years they'll be glad they built it, but I don't think it would solve that many issues with the knotted up design of I-24/40/65, because cars and trucks actually have to get to Nashville proper. I'll settle for an arc that completes it to I-24 towards Clarksville (FTFY).

If they extended it farther east to I65, it would be very useful, both for local destinations (Clarksville, Springfield) that are inconvenient to get to if eastbound on 40 from Memphis as well as traffic headed to Bowling Green and Louisville. Run it east of Montgomery Bell State park, cross the Cumberland near Ashland City, cross 24 near the TN49 interchange, run south of Springfield, then head east to 65 near White House. 

I realize the cost to build this route would be prohibitive and as mentioned upthread, the NIMBYs would kill it in a New York minute. 
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sparker on May 25, 2020, 05:40:48 PM
^^^^^^^^^^
Several years ago I proposed an extension north of the eastern I-840 terminus that would extend into KY and connect with the Natcher (now I-165) Parkway.  Got a hell of a lot of flack for that -- but I still stand by the concept as having the ability to (a) add an effective I-65 bypass to the current I-40 one, and (b) provide, with the KY parkway complex, a regional bypass of Nashville -- think Evansville to eastward I-24 toward Chattanooga (a routing via yet-to-be-signed I-169 still requires schlepping through central Nashville).  And it seems clear that the E-W part of a Nashville northern arc would be both topographically and politically problematic; avoiding this would quite possible increase the chances for success of any bypass development in the area. 
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Crown Victoria on May 25, 2020, 07:35:20 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.  However, the I-40 near Lebanon to I-65 near Portland segment is being built, in a sense, in the form of a widened (but mostly at-grade) TN-109, with a bypass of Gallatin and a future bypass of Portland to the new interchange with I-65 near the Kentucky line.  A freeway may indeed be needed to bypass TN-109 eventually (and could even use part of that alignment to cut costs, particularly the climb between Gallatin and Portland), but it won't happen anytime soon with the upgrades occurring in that corridor presently.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: rte66man on May 26, 2020, 02:44:40 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.

Why do you think the eastern link is needed to justify the I24 to I65 portion?  I believe there is a demand there for traffic coming up from Texas through Memphis to reach Louisville. As already mentioned, Briley Pkwy isn't a good option and no one wants to head into downtown to go back north.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: hbelkins on May 26, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.

Why do you think the eastern link is needed to justify the I24 to I65 portion?  I believe there is a demand there for traffic coming up from Texas through Memphis to reach Louisville. As already mentioned, Briley Pkwy isn't a good option and no one wants to head into downtown to go back north.

West Memphis to Louisville? I'm using I-55, I-155, US 51, and the Kentucky parkways/I-24/I-65. Not going through Memphis and darn sure not going through Nashville.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: Crown Victoria on May 26, 2020, 03:26:44 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.

Why do you think the eastern link is needed to justify the I24 to I65 portion?  I believe there is a demand there for traffic coming up from Texas through Memphis to reach Louisville. As already mentioned, Briley Pkwy isn't a good option and no one wants to head into downtown to go back north.

West Memphis to Louisville? I'm using I-55, I-155, US 51, and the Kentucky parkways/I-24/I-65. Not going through Memphis and darn sure not going through Nashville.

That northern section doesn't do much good without a link to I-40.  It would need to link either way, east or west, to be of much use. 
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: sprjus4 on May 26, 2020, 07:03:46 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.

Why do you think the eastern link is needed to justify the I24 to I65 portion?  I believe there is a demand there for traffic coming up from Texas through Memphis to reach Louisville. As already mentioned, Briley Pkwy isn't a good option and no one wants to head into downtown to go back north.

West Memphis to Louisville? I'm using I-55, I-155, US 51, and the Kentucky parkways/I-24/I-65. Not going through Memphis and darn sure not going through Nashville.
The majority of the traffic is using I-40 and I-65 though, since that’s the quickest connections.

Me personally, 50-50.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of TN-840 (I-840)
Post by: rte66man on May 31, 2020, 01:57:41 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.

Why do you think the eastern link is needed to justify the I24 to I65 portion?  I believe there is a demand there for traffic coming up from Texas through Memphis to reach Louisville. As already mentioned, Briley Pkwy isn't a good option and no one wants to head into downtown to go back north.

West Memphis to Louisville? I'm using I-55, I-155, US 51, and the Kentucky parkways/I-24/I-65. Not going through Memphis and darn sure not going through Nashville.

That northern section doesn't do much good without a link to I-40.  It would need to link either way, east or west, to be of much use. 

Again, why do you say that? I'm not saying you are wrong, I just want to see your reasons. I see a use for it. I realize mine may be in the minority, but just saying 'it will be of little use' isn't helpful for those of us not from the area.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: I-39 on May 31, 2020, 04:15:19 PM
Just an FYI, I started this thread and no longer feel it is necessary to build the northern half of I-840. Tennessee needs to use their transportation dollars elsewhere, particularly upgrading local roads in the Middle Tennessee area.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: Team445 on June 06, 2020, 05:51:48 PM
Just an FYI, I started this thread and no longer feel it is necessary to build the northern half of I-840. Tennessee needs to use their transportation dollars elsewhere, particularly upgrading local roads in the Middle Tennessee area.

Strongly agree. Wish they would upgrade TN-96 between Almaville Road and Franklin to a divided highway. Sadly it will be 5 lanes. :(

TN-99 also needs upgrades between Veterans Pkwy and Murfreesboro.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 04:13:36 PM
A bit of a bump, but I've always felt like the proposed route for the northern half of I-840 was quite far north compared to where I would imagine it being.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 28, 2021, 08:08:07 AM
There is no need for the northern half of I-840.  There are several folks up that way that are content with farming and rural living.  As close as Ashland City is to Nashville now with the upgraded SR 12 the development to Ashland City is nothing in comparison with development along the other corridors.  Metro Nashville even has restrictions on zoning certain parts of the Joelton area as well.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: sprjus4 on June 28, 2021, 11:07:37 AM
There is no need for the northern half of I-840.  There are several folks up that way that are content with farming and rural living.
While I am sort of on the side of I-840’s benefits are questionable… the road is not entirely a useless proposal, particularly as a I-65 South to I-40 West bypass of Nashville plus for I-24… and those reasons listed I wouldn’t consider actual valid reasons to cancel a public works infrastructure project that would have benefits, particularly to long distance traffic.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 28, 2021, 12:27:40 PM
There are have been various improvements to the TN 155 (Briley Pkwy) section from I-65 to I-40.  You can now use that as a by-pass.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: Life in Paradise on June 28, 2021, 12:37:38 PM
There are have been various improvements to the TN 155 (Briley Pkwy) section from I-65 to I-40.  You can now use that as a by-pass.
I've used Briley Parkway as a bypass on occasion, but as a freeway, it was placed too close to inside the city for a feasible through traffic bypass as much as I-840 is far outside.  If one could go back 40-50 years and perhaps plan on a band around Nashville, perhaps at the distance of Old Hickory Blvd on the North/West/South and Bell Road on the East, that would be a good distance for current suburbanization of the Nashville/Davidson Co metro.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: I-39 on June 29, 2021, 12:47:58 PM
I've used Briley Parkway as a bypass on occasion, but as a freeway, it was placed too close to inside the city for a feasible through traffic bypass as much as I-840 is far outside.  If one could go back 40-50 years and perhaps plan on a band around Nashville, perhaps at the distance of Old Hickory Blvd on the North/West/South and Bell Road on the East, that would be a good distance for current suburbanization of the Nashville/Davidson Co metro.

That is an excellent point. The failure to build a full interstate ring road around Nashville is an Achilles heel on the area. Briley Parkway doesn't cover the southern half of town, and it's not fully interstate standard. A ring road covering what you mentioned there skirting the outskirts of Davidson County would have negated the need to build I-840, which is admittedly not super beneficial the way it was built. 
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 02:56:03 PM
I don't usually have to travel from I-40 through Nashville, however, judging by travelling straight through on I-65 it really isn't that bad outside of commuter hours.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: wriddle082 on June 29, 2021, 04:16:04 PM
I don't usually have to travel from I-40 through Nashville, however, judging by travelling straight through on I-65 it really isn't that bad outside of commuter hours.

It can be a slog on the west side, since it’s a heavy trucking route.  If any sort of wreck or lane closure happens, US 70 and TN 100 immediately get clogged, and it can add over an hour to get out towards Dickson.  At this point I’m very thankful that my parents moved from Dickson Co back into Nashville proper, so they won’t have to put up with it on a daily basis.

An extended 840 from Dickson/Burns to White House via Ashland City and Springfield might look good on paper, but the terrain is extremely difficult, and partially protected as a state wildlife refuge.  I don’t think it will ever happen in my lifetime, if ever.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: triplemultiplex on July 02, 2021, 03:18:08 PM
I didn't like the way the northern half wouldn't meet itself on the Lebanon side of it anyway, so the hell with it.
(At least that's what the 15-year-old map I have in my head is telling me.)

As far as 840 vs 40, I will always take 840 if it's up to me.  The couple extra minutes is well worth the greatly reduced hassle of dealing with way more other drivers and merging traffic.  Much nicer to be able set the cruise and admire the limestone rock cuts.

It's the same for me driving from southern Wisconsin and going toward Indy or anything that direction.  It's nominally 'faster' to go via Chicago and GPS will usually route one that way.  But it's much less stressful going via Bloomington/Normal.  The Borman can suck it!
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: rte66man on August 28, 2021, 04:05:30 PM
I don't usually have to travel from I-40 through Nashville, however, judging by travelling straight through on I-65 it really isn't that bad outside of commuter hours.

It can be a slog on the west side, since it’s a heavy trucking route.  If any sort of wreck or lane closure happens, US 70 and TN 100 immediately get clogged, and it can add over an hour to get out towards Dickson.  At this point I’m very thankful that my parents moved from Dickson Co back into Nashville proper, so they won’t have to put up with it on a daily basis.

An extended 840 from Dickson/Burns to White House via Ashland City and Springfield might look good on paper, but the terrain is extremely difficult, and partially protected as a state wildlife refuge.  I don’t think it will ever happen in my lifetime, if ever.


Even thought I want it to be built, I have to agree with you that it won't get built in my lifetime (I'm 62).  I remember the blasting that was needed for the Briley and the proposed route from Dickson to Springfield would be hugely more. Plus the cost of another Cumberland River bridge. I still hold out hope that the Ashland City area will push for a better connection tot he south and east.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 28, 2021, 04:55:57 PM
I agree that an entire northern arc needs to be built, although I would be happy for just a portion between I-65 near Portland and I-40 near Lebanon to relieve congestion travelling between Chattanooga and Louisville and vice-versa.
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: sparker on August 28, 2021, 05:28:45 PM
I agree that an entire northern arc needs to be built, although I would be happy for just a portion between I-65 near Portland and I-40 near Lebanon to relieve congestion travelling between Chattanooga and Louisville and vice-versa.

Agreed here; a functional 3/4 beltway as described will yield two outer arcs for effective bypasses of both I-65 and I-40 plus movements from north I-65 and west I-40 to southeast I-24.  Since the least utilized Interstate "spoke" extending from Nashville is I-24 NW toward Paducah, that part of the beltway isn't necessary, at least in the near term. 
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: Daniel Fiddler on August 28, 2021, 05:47:26 PM
Indeed.  From most to least utilized, the spokes are:

I-24 E, and it stays overcrowded all the way to I-75 in Chattanooga
I-65 N, and it stays overcrowded to the Kentucky line, where they’ve 6 lanes it
I-65 S, it’s heavy until TN 96 Franklin, MAYBE Saturn Parkway, then it dies down a lot
I-40 E, it’s heaviest to Lebanon, but stays busy all the way to I-81
I-40 W, it is really not that busy for local traffic past Charlotte Pike usually, mostly long-distance
I-24 W: almost no traffic, completely opposite of I-24 E
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: sparker on August 28, 2021, 06:44:18 PM
Indeed.  From most to least utilized, the spokes are:

I-24 E, and it stays overcrowded all the way to I-75 in Chattanooga
I-65 N, and it stays overcrowded to the Kentucky line, where they’ve 6 lanes it
I-65 S, it’s heavy until TN 96 Franklin, MAYBE Saturn Parkway, then it dies down a lot
I-40 E, it’s heaviest to Lebanon, but stays busy all the way to I-81
I-40 W, it is really not that busy for local traffic past Charlotte Pike usually, mostly long-distance
I-24 W: almost no traffic, completely opposite of I-24 E

Right.  The perennial issue with the underutilized I-24 corridor NW of Nashville is the fact that isn't part of a particularly useful commercial corridor to anywhere except St. Louis.  Chicago and environs, the "800-pound-gorilla" of commercial origin/destination points in the upper Midwest, really doesn't have a completely direct route to Chattanooga and, of course, Atlanta and Florida beyond that; the I-57/24 combination just adds too much mileage due to the lateral/E-W section in KY.  Truckers use I-65 because it's there and the "best of a bad lot" for that purpose -- and because of that, there's plenty of truck-related amenities situated along that corridor.  Venturing into the fictional realm for a second or two, an upgraded corridor more or less along US 41 via Terre Haute connecting I-69 and Evansville with either I-65 or I-57 near Chicago might, via I-69/169 in KY, provide such a direct connection; it would be a safe guess that the commercial traffic level on the aforementioned section of I-24 would increase dramatically.  Hell, truck tolls could even help pay for the I-69 Ohio River bridge project!   
Title: Re: It's time to revive the northern half of I-840
Post by: I-55 on August 30, 2021, 09:56:50 PM
The Northeast link would exist if the TN-109 speed limit wasn't set at 55. It should be 65 in most places.