Russell Wilson has been working to help bring the MLB to Portland, which I'd be a big fan of. This got me thinking of what other cities are underserved by major sports leagues.
I feel Covid might be the swan song for the NFL commissioner's pipe dream of a London team, but there's other markets that might benefit. Mexico City has had exhibition games and the logistics for travel to there makes more sense than London given the time difference.
Here's a few places I could see some new teams setting up shop in.
MLB:
Portland (potentially in the works)
Nashville. Far enough away not to really encroach on the Braves' market. What would the next nearest market be? St Louis?
Charlotte.
Montreal....though was there ever much love when the Expos were there?
NFL:
San Antonio. I don't think Texas needs a 3rd team, but they do love football and I'm sure San Antonio wouldn't mind a team.
Mexico City. The exhibition games held there have proved to be rather popular. Certainly a large market.
NBA:
Seattle. Let the Sonics come back?
Quote from: OCGuy81 on February 25, 2021, 04:00:05 PM
Russell Wilson has been working to help bring the MLB to Portland, which I'd be a big fan of. This got me thinking of what other cities are underserved by major sports leagues.
I feel Covid might be the swan song for the NFL commissioner's pipe dream of a London team, but there's other markets that might benefit. Mexico City has had exhibition games and the logistics for travel to there makes more sense than London given the time difference.
Here's a few places I could see some new teams setting up shop in.
MLB:
Portland (potentially in the works)
Nashville. Far enough away not to really encroach on the Braves' market. What would the next nearest market be? St Louis?
Charlotte.
Montreal....though was there ever much love when the Expos were there?
NFL:
San Antonio. I don't think Texas needs a 3rd team, but they do love football and I'm sure San Antonio wouldn't mind a team.
Mexico City. The exhibition games held there have proved to be rather popular. Certainly a large market.
NBA:
Seattle. Let the Sonics come back?
Seattle yes. There's talk about a new NBA team there.
We'll welcome the Sonics back, but only if the Thunder relinquish all their stolen records.
Portland still needs to find a suitable site for a ballpark that doesn't upset the NIMBYs, which is a tough one. I'd hope a riverfront site would help spur redevelopment of the east bank, especially if I-5 could be relocated.
For MLS:
Phoenix is the largest market without an MLS team, and is in the running alongside Las Vegas to fill a gap in the west. It's possible that RSL could be forced to move, and they have strong ties to Phoenix through their academy presence.
San Diego could potentially host a team at their new CFB stadium, but the California market is over-saturated already with 4 teams.
Detroit has a local team that doesn't want anything to do with MLS, and already botched their chance at a stadium.
I don't see Indianapolis and Louisville being all that appealing, but the latter already has a small stadium for their USL team that could be expanded.
It's a bummer Montana has markets too small to host anything significant like MLS or anything else remotely pro.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on February 25, 2021, 05:04:17 PM
It's a bummer Montana has markets too small to host anything significant like MLS or anything else remotely pro.
For MLB, NFL, and NHL, if you put it in the correct part of Montana, it will be the closest team to Salt Lake City.
Quote from: 1 on February 25, 2021, 05:10:50 PM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on February 25, 2021, 05:04:17 PM
It's a bummer Montana has markets too small to host anything significant like MLS or anything else remotely pro.
For MLB, NFL, and NHL, if you put it in the correct part of Montana, it will be the closest team to Salt Lake City.
Hmmm that's true, and you'd draw from areas with nothing professional like Idaho and Wyoming.
Montana could potentially do it. I mean....Green Bay, WI has a franchise 😋
Quote from: 1 on February 25, 2021, 05:10:50 PM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on February 25, 2021, 05:04:17 PM
It's a bummer Montana has markets too small to host anything significant like MLS or anything else remotely pro.
For MLB, NFL, and NHL, if you put it in the correct part of Montana, it will be the closest team to Salt Lake City.
And again, going back to when you asserted this type of scenario in past threads, that isn't how this works. The real-life example would be the Tampa Bay Rays, whose stadium is on the fringe of the Tampa Bay metro in a poorly planned out location, and despite being one of the better teams in the AL for the last decade they can't get anyone to come out unless they're hosting New York or Boston when those visiting fans overrun the stadium.
Quote from: Bruce on February 25, 2021, 04:29:28 PM
We'll welcome the Sonics back, but only if the Thunder relinquish all their stolen records.
Portland still needs to find a suitable site for a ballpark that doesn't upset the NIMBYs, which is a tough one. I'd hope a riverfront site would help spur redevelopment of the east bank, especially if I-5 could be relocated.
For MLS:
Phoenix is the largest market without an MLS team, and is in the running alongside Las Vegas to fill a gap in the west. It's possible that RSL could be forced to move, and they have strong ties to Phoenix through their academy presence.
San Diego could potentially host a team at their new CFB stadium, but the California market is over-saturated already with 4 teams.
Detroit has a local team that doesn't want anything to do with MLS, and already botched their chance at a stadium.
I don't see Indianapolis and Louisville being all that appealing, but the latter already has a small stadium for their USL team that could be expanded.
Last I heard they were looking at some locations in north Portland, kind of near University of Portland, likely river adjacent.
I'm assuming they'd be in the NL as an expansion team, as there's plenty of Seattle fans in and around Oregon the Mariners wouldn't want to be encroached upon.
Interestingly, the largest metro area (MSA) without a professional sports team is the Inland Empire of CA- more people in it than Detroit, Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, and others with multiple teams.
If we consider that part of LA (and it's part of the Los Angeles CSA), then the next ones without are Austin (similar in size to Las Vegas/Cincinnati) and Virginia Beach.
NFL isn't expanding before 2050 at earliest. NBA needs to fix their huge ratings problem before they think about it. MLB is in decline. NHL is set at 32 teams, with the already confirmed Seattle team.
Quote from: dkblake on February 25, 2021, 08:12:44 PM
If we consider that part of LA (and it's part of the Los Angeles CSA), then the next ones without are Austin (similar in size to Las Vegas/Cincinnati) and Virginia Beach.
Austin's MLS team is set to begin play this season, and arguably it is part of the same metro area as San Antonio.
I've always thought Louisville would be a good market for an NBA team.
Add them and Seattle and then you have a 32-team league.
Quote from: kevinb1994 on February 25, 2021, 04:13:11 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on February 25, 2021, 04:00:05 PM
Russell Wilson has been working to help bring the MLB to Portland, which I'd be a big fan of. This got me thinking of what other cities are underserved by major sports leagues.
I feel Covid might be the swan song for the NFL commissioner's pipe dream of a London team, but there's other markets that might benefit. Mexico City has had exhibition games and the logistics for travel to there makes more sense than London given the time difference.
Here's a few places I could see some new teams setting up shop in.
MLB:
Portland (potentially in the works)
Nashville. Far enough away not to really encroach on the Braves' market. What would the next nearest market be? St Louis?
Charlotte.
Montreal....though was there ever much love when the Expos were there?
NFL:
San Antonio. I don't think Texas needs a 3rd team, but they do love football and I'm sure San Antonio wouldn't mind a team.
Mexico City. The exhibition games held there have proved to be rather popular. Certainly a large market.
NBA:
Seattle. Let the Sonics come back?
Seattle yes. There's talk about a new NBA team there.
Seattle might be the next for NBA, especially now that they have a NHL franchise coming
Quote from: keithvh on February 25, 2021, 09:58:11 PM
I've always thought Louisville would be a good market for an NBA team.
Add them and Seattle and then you have a 32-team league.
The biggest markets for college basketball seem to be the worst for pro. Hence why Kansas City doesn't have nor want an NBA team.
Chris
^^ Kansas City had the Kings until they moved to Sacramento in 1985.
Quote from: Big John on February 27, 2021, 01:15:38 PM
^^ Kansas City had the Kings until they moved to Sacramento in 1985.
Exactly. They moved.
Chris
MLB: Raleigh, Nashville, Portland
NBA: Virginia Beach, Seattle, Kansas City, Louisville
NHL: Hamilton, Quebec City, Halifax
NFL: None as far as I'm concerned
MLS: Don't care about it
Quote from: dkblake on February 25, 2021, 08:12:44 PM
Interestingly, the largest metro area (MSA) without a professional sports team is the Inland Empire of CA- more people in it than Detroit, Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, and others with multiple teams.
Is it the largest MSA without a professional sports team...or the largest MSA without a major league team?
I wish that, for at least some sports, there were a promotion/relegation mechanism to/from the major league of that sport.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on February 27, 2021, 08:33:19 PM
Quote from: dkblake on February 25, 2021, 08:12:44 PM
Interestingly, the largest metro area (MSA) without a professional sports team is the Inland Empire of CA- more people in it than Detroit, Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, and others with multiple teams.
Is it the largest MSA without a professional sports team...or the largest MSA without a major league team?
I wish that, for at least some sports, there were a promotion/relegation mechanism to/from the major league of that sport.
With all of the off-the-field/court cr*p that has been going on the last few years and especially so far this year, we may now be closer to converting to the full private sports club/promotion and relegation thing that anyone realizes.
As for current sports leagues, I'm thinking that basketball and hockey would be the easiest and make the most to convert, followed by baseball.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on February 27, 2021, 11:11:34 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on February 27, 2021, 08:33:19 PM
Quote from: dkblake on February 25, 2021, 08:12:44 PM
Interestingly, the largest metro area (MSA) without a professional sports team is the Inland Empire of CA- more people in it than Detroit, Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, and others with multiple teams.
Is it the largest MSA without a professional sports team...or the largest MSA without a major league team?
I wish that, for at least some sports, there were a promotion/relegation mechanism to/from the major league of that sport.
With all of the off-the-field/court cr*p that has been going on the last few years and especially so far this year, we may now be closer to converting to the full private sports club/promotion and relegation thing that anyone realizes.
As for current sports leagues, I'm thinking that basketball and hockey would be the easiest and make the most to convert, followed by baseball.
Mike
European-style promotion/relegation will never happen in North American sports. There's no infrastructure for it with either personnel or stadiums and there's no desire to create it. Plus the talent pool for top-level talent is too thin as it is. I think proponents see it as a way to punish bad teams and discourage tanking, but then they'd be replaced by other bad teams. There's also no profit in swapping out, say, the Baltimore Orioles for a top AAA team.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 28, 2021, 02:07:57 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 27, 2021, 11:11:34 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on February 27, 2021, 08:33:19 PM
Quote from: dkblake on February 25, 2021, 08:12:44 PM
Interestingly, the largest metro area (MSA) without a professional sports team is the Inland Empire of CA- more people in it than Detroit, Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, and others with multiple teams.
Is it the largest MSA without a professional sports team...or the largest MSA without a major league team?
I wish that, for at least some sports, there were a promotion/relegation mechanism to/from the major league of that sport.
With all of the off-the-field/court cr*p that has been going on the last few years and especially so far this year, we may now be closer to converting to the full private sports club/promotion and relegation thing that anyone realizes.
As for current sports leagues, I'm thinking that basketball and hockey would be the easiest and make the most to convert, followed by baseball.
Mike
European-style promotion/relegation will never happen in North American sports. There's no infrastructure for it and there's no desire to create it. Plus the talent pool for top-level talent is too thin as it is. I think proponents see it as a way to punish bad teams and discourage tanking, but then they'd be replaced by other bad teams.
You don't think the best second-level team (which is the one that will be promoted) is better than the worst top-level team in most sports? It's not like you're promoting a random second-level team.
Quote from: 1 on February 28, 2021, 02:12:24 PM
You don't think the best second-level team (which is the one that will be promoted) is better than the worst top-level team in most sports? It's not like you're promoting a random second-level team.
No, I don't. Many of those players are either marginal top-level players or raw talent that hasn't developed yet. Minor League Baseball for example is about player development before gameplay, and not every minor league player even at AAA is major-league caliber. Granted, with MLB now assuming more direct involvement in MiLB, that might change some.
Quote from: 1 on February 28, 2021, 02:12:24 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 28, 2021, 02:07:57 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 27, 2021, 11:11:34 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on February 27, 2021, 08:33:19 PM
Quote from: dkblake on February 25, 2021, 08:12:44 PM
Interestingly, the largest metro area (MSA) without a professional sports team is the Inland Empire of CA- more people in it than Detroit, Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, and others with multiple teams.
Is it the largest MSA without a professional sports team...or the largest MSA without a major league team?
I wish that, for at least some sports, there were a promotion/relegation mechanism to/from the major league of that sport.
With all of the off-the-field/court cr*p that has been going on the last few years and especially so far this year, we may now be closer to converting to the full private sports club/promotion and relegation thing that anyone realizes.
As for current sports leagues, I'm thinking that basketball and hockey would be the easiest and make the most to convert, followed by baseball.
Mike
European-style promotion/relegation will never happen in North American sports. There's no infrastructure for it and there's no desire to create it. Plus the talent pool for top-level talent is too thin as it is. I think proponents see it as a way to punish bad teams and discourage tanking, but then they'd be replaced by other bad teams.
You don't think the best second-level team (which is the one that will be promoted) is better than the worst top-level team in most sports? It's not like you're promoting a random second-level team.
You do have the NCAA, which for many reasons that I will not discuss here, may well be on the verge of imploding. If/when that happens, most or all of the needed infrastructure will already be in place.
Mike
As I've noted previously, none of the four major sports have enough talent to truly warrant adding teams, but the best cities for potential relocations:
NFL - San Antonio
MLB - Montreal
NBA - Las Vegas
NHL - Houston
As to the promotion/relegation discussion-it won't work because of how North American sports leagues are structured. The minor league teams and their players (except for in a couple independent baseball leagues) are owned by a parent club. Norwich City can replace Sheffield United in the EPL because Norwich City isn't affiliated with any existing EPL clubs. The Columbus Clippers can't replace the Baltimore Orioles in MLB because the Clippers players' contracts are all held by the Cleveland Baseball Club and they aren't giving those players up. Similar arrangements exist in the NHL and NBA.
Quote from: mgk920 on March 01, 2021, 05:20:19 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 28, 2021, 02:12:24 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 28, 2021, 02:07:57 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 27, 2021, 11:11:34 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on February 27, 2021, 08:33:19 PM
Quote from: dkblake on February 25, 2021, 08:12:44 PM
Interestingly, the largest metro area (MSA) without a professional sports team is the Inland Empire of CA- more people in it than Detroit, Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, and others with multiple teams.
Is it the largest MSA without a professional sports team...or the largest MSA without a major league team?
I wish that, for at least some sports, there were a promotion/relegation mechanism to/from the major league of that sport.
With all of the off-the-field/court cr*p that has been going on the last few years and especially so far this year, we may now be closer to converting to the full private sports club/promotion and relegation thing that anyone realizes.
As for current sports leagues, I'm thinking that basketball and hockey would be the easiest and make the most to convert, followed by baseball.
Mike
European-style promotion/relegation will never happen in North American sports. There's no infrastructure for it and there's no desire to create it. Plus the talent pool for top-level talent is too thin as it is. I think proponents see it as a way to punish bad teams and discourage tanking, but then they'd be replaced by other bad teams.
You don't think the best second-level team (which is the one that will be promoted) is better than the worst top-level team in most sports? It's not like you're promoting a random second-level team.
You do have the NCAA, which for many reasons that I will not discuss here, may well be on the verge of imploding. If/when that happens, most or all of the needed infrastructure will already be in place.
Mike
The NCAA is not imploding. The most I've heard is that football is close to breaking off and self-regulating, but the NCAA would continue with other sports including basketball.
Milwaukee was once considered for an NHL expansion team. It's why the money was originally donated to build the Bradley Center back in the 1980s, to lure an NHL team. But the Blackhawks bawked at a Milwaukee team encroaching on their territory, so it never happened. Milwaukee would still make a great hockey city, but it's doubtful if the market could support a third major sports franchise.
Most pro sports leagues in the US probably have too many teams as it is already given how uncompetitive many of their teams have been for eons. So to me, expansion of any of them is unwarranted.
Rather, I would be in favor of moving teams from metros that have more than one. Let's be real; when there are two or more teams in the same city; one dominates the market anyway, so why not spread some love around?
It didn't take long to happen in the NFL once teams moved back to Los Angeles. La Rams are already the runaway favorite over the Clippers. (That's what I call them because of the same 'LAC' abbreviation used. :P ) Good for the Rams since they were second fiddle to the Raiders back in the day, but I think it's bad for pro sports to have 4 metros hording 2 entire divisions worth of teams in some leagues.
If you're interested in who's fans I'd upset, these are the teams that I feel should set up shop in another city:
Mets
Jets
Nets
White Sox
Angels
A's
Chargers
Clippers
(Not doing hockey because I don't feel like looking up where the teams are these days and not doing soccer because it's not worth my attention.)
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 02, 2021, 12:31:12 PM
Most pro sports leagues in the US probably have too many teams as it is already given how uncompetitive many of their teams have been for eons. So to me, expansion of any of them is unwarranted.
Rather, I would be in favor of moving teams from metros that have more than one. Let's be real; when there are two or more teams in the same city; one dominates the market anyway, so why not spread some love around?
It didn't take long to happen in the NFL once teams moved back to Los Angeles. La Rams are already the runaway favorite over the Clippers. (That's what I call them because of the same 'LAC' abbreviation used. :P ) Good for the Rams since they were second fiddle to the Raiders back in the day, but I think it's bad for pro sports to have 4 metros hording 2 entire divisions worth of teams in some leagues.
If you're interested in who's fans I'd upset, these are the teams that I feel should set up shop in another city:
Mets
Jets
Nets
White Sox
Angels
A's
Chargers
Clippers
(Not doing hockey because I don't feel like looking up where the teams are these days and not doing soccer because it's not worth my attention.)
The Angels and White Sox have two of the most lucrative local TV contracts in MLB. They aren't going anywhere.
The White Sox are the south side's team. The Cubs are the north side's team.
It's so sad that San Diego can't keep teams with the San Diego/Tijuana metro being so large. The Clippers and also the Chargers went north. It's good that they at least have the Padres, for now.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 02, 2021, 12:31:12 PM
Most pro sports leagues in the US probably have too many teams as it is already given how uncompetitive many of their teams have been for eons. So to me, expansion of any of them is unwarranted.
Rather, I would be in favor of moving teams from metros that have more than one. Let's be real; when there are two or more teams in the same city; one dominates the market anyway, so why not spread some love around?
It didn't take long to happen in the NFL once teams moved back to Los Angeles. La Rams are already the runaway favorite over the Clippers. (That's what I call them because of the same 'LAC' abbreviation used. :P ) Good for the Rams since they were second fiddle to the Raiders back in the day, but I think it's bad for pro sports to have 4 metros hording 2 entire divisions worth of teams in some leagues.
If you're interested in who's fans I'd upset, these are the teams that I feel should set up shop in another city:
Mets
Jets
Nets
White Sox
Angels
A's
Chargers
Clippers
(Not doing hockey because I don't feel like looking up where the teams are these days and not doing soccer because it's not worth my attention.)
I always refer to those as the JV franchises of their respective cities.
The Mets came into existence as an effort to thwart a start-up baseball league looking to fill the void of jilted Giants and Dodgers fans in NYC (who were also rabid Yankee haters and not about to root for them) after those teams left for California.
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2021, 12:53:05 PM
The White Sox are the south side's team. The Cubs are the north side's team.
But the White Sox fanbase is very niche compared to their north side counterparts. Not really sure how they've managed to stay in Chicago.
Quote from: I-39 on March 02, 2021, 09:30:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2021, 12:53:05 PM
The White Sox are the south side's team. The Cubs are the north side's team.
But the White Sox fanbase is very niche compared to their north side counterparts. Not really sure how they've managed to stay in Chicago.
Both they and the SF Giants nearly ended up in Tampa in the late 80s/early 90s. New ballparks generally save the day.
Before COVID, last year, there rumors that Tampa Rays would move to Montreal.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 02, 2021, 09:43:31 PM
Quote from: I-39 on March 02, 2021, 09:30:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2021, 12:53:05 PM
The White Sox are the south side's team. The Cubs are the north side's team.
But the White Sox fanbase is very niche compared to their north side counterparts. Not really sure how they've managed to stay in Chicago.
Both they and the SF Giants nearly ended up in Tampa in the late 80s/early 90s. New ballparks generally save the day.
Quote from: I-39 on March 02, 2021, 09:30:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2021, 12:53:05 PM
The White Sox are the south side's team. The Cubs are the north side's team.
But the White Sox fanbase is very niche compared to their north side counterparts. Not really sure how they've managed to stay in Chicago.
The Cubs/Sox disparity is more of a national thing than a local thing. Inside the metro area, the split in fans is closer to 60/40. It's outside the metro area, where people grew up watching Cubs games from Wrigley Field on WGN, that the Cubs are far more popular than the Sox.
Quote from: cabiness42 on March 03, 2021, 07:08:14 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 02, 2021, 09:43:31 PM
Quote from: I-39 on March 02, 2021, 09:30:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2021, 12:53:05 PM
The White Sox are the south side's team. The Cubs are the north side's team.
But the White Sox fanbase is very niche compared to their north side counterparts. Not really sure how they've managed to stay in Chicago.
Both they and the SF Giants nearly ended up in Tampa in the late 80s/early 90s. New ballparks generally save the day.
Quote from: I-39 on March 02, 2021, 09:30:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2021, 12:53:05 PM
The White Sox are the south side's team. The Cubs are the north side's team.
But the White Sox fanbase is very niche compared to their north side counterparts. Not really sure how they've managed to stay in Chicago.
The Cubs/Sox disparity is more of a national thing than a local thing. Inside the metro area, the split in fans is closer to 60/40. It's outside the metro area, where people grew up watching Cubs games from Wrigley Field on WGN, that the Cubs are far more popular than the Sox.
Even when I lived within the metro area, I knew of more Cubs than Sox fans. The only reason the Sox stayed in Chicago is because Jerry Reinsdorf twisted the arm of the legislature in an 11th hour deal to get funding for a new stadium. Yet hypocritically, they refused to give the Cubs any assistance when it came time to renovate Wrigley.
I know Chicago is fairly split on Cubs vs Sox, at least in the city itself.
I'm not sure the love some other "JV" teams get.
What's the split on Giants vs Jets in the NY metro?
How about Knicks vs Nets?
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 03, 2021, 09:01:04 AM
I know Chicago is fairly split on Cubs vs Sox, at least in the city itself.
I'm not sure the love some other "JV" teams get.
What's the split on Giants vs Jets in the NY metro?
How about Knicks vs Nets?
I know for the Giants and Jets, it's fairly lopsided. Deadpsin used to put out the stats that someone compiled of Facebook likes for teams by county. At one point, all the Jets had was Nassau County, and in the mid-2010's they lost even that, with the Giants winning every county around NYC. Granted, it could be close in each county, but in general it appears the Giants are much more loved than the Jets, at least by that metric.
Quote from: I-39 on March 03, 2021, 08:29:21 AM
Even when I lived within the metro area, I knew of more Cubs than Sox fans.
Metro area? Yeah, I'd say there are probably a good deal more Cubs fans in the suburbs than there are Sox fans. But, within Chicago itself, it's not that way. If you live on the south side of Chicago, you're a Sox fan, or else they burn your house down. Same with the north side and the Cubs.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on March 03, 2021, 12:31:50 AM
Before COVID, last year, there rumors that Tampa Rays would move to Montreal.
Now it's more likely (but still a very small chance) that the Blue Jays and Raptors could permanently move to a US city as they're the only Canadian teams in their respective leagues. If either were to move to the States, I think the Blue Jays would move to Buffalo or Charlotte and the Raptors would move to Seattle, becoming the new Sonics and inheriting the records of the previous Sonics franchise.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 02, 2021, 05:33:42 PM
The Mets came into existence as an effort to thwart a start-up baseball league looking to fill the void of jilted Giants and Dodgers fans in NYC (who were also rabid Yankee haters and not about to root for them) after those teams left for California.
Which I find awesome. Why root for the Mets? Because
fuck the Yankees! :-D
And I get it; I was totally pulling for the Metropolitans in the subway series.
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 03, 2021, 09:01:04 AM
I know Chicago is fairly split on Cubs vs Sox, at least in the city itself.
I'm not sure the love some other "JV" teams get.
What's the split on Giants vs Jets in the NY metro?
How about Knicks vs Nets?
Seat of the pants reactions from a NY area resident.
* Giants vs. Jets: Jets territory seems to be very specific. A lot of Italians like the Jets, at least in NJ (is it the green?), but overall more people are Giants fans because their franchise isn't a total joke every year. This can change down the road if their fortunes reverse, but the Jets have historically been the underdog from a fan numbers perspective.
* Knicks vs. Nets: Until the Nets moved to Brooklyn, I'd say the Knicks had this one easily. The Nets were the junior team from the junior state and even in NJ there was a split on that basis. At this point, the Nets are successful and take the game seriously, while the Knicks have been a joke for about 20 years, so while I bet the numbers still favor the Knicks, the active fandom is probably in the Nets' favor (as opposed to the legacy fandom of old people and me).
* Yankees vs. Mets: You didn't bring it up, but the Mets have a steady, passionate fan base that just happens to generally be smaller than the Yankees' just about everywhere. If you strip away the bandwagon and "by default" Yankees fans, the numbers probably still favor the Yankees (based on my experiences and interactions) but it's no longer a blowout.
* Rangers vs. Islanders vs. Devils: Islanders are "third fiddle" and used to it, yet the metro area is large enough to keep them in the blue. Rangers definitely win the fan battle in the overall area, but the Devils have just about all of North Jersey to themselves.
Quote from: ftballfan on March 03, 2021, 02:40:43 PM
Now it's more likely (but still a very small chance) that the Blue Jays and Raptors could permanently move to a US city as they're the only Canadian teams in their respective leagues. If either were to move to the States, I think the Blue Jays would move to Buffalo or Charlotte and the Raptors would move to Seattle, becoming the new Sonics and inheriting the records of the previous Sonics franchise.
The latter would result in the Raptors folding and the Sonics splitting into the Thunder and the new Sonics in my view. I already consider the Hornets to have split into the current Pelicans and the then-Bobcats, and in American Football the Browns into the Ravens and the current Browns.
Quote from: SectorZ on March 03, 2021, 09:35:17 AM
I know for the Giants and Jets, it's fairly lopsided. Deadpsin used to put out the stats that someone compiled of Facebook likes for teams by county. At one point, all the Jets had was Nassau County, and in the mid-2010's they lost even that, with the Giants winning every county around NYC.
That's because the Jets used to practice at Hofstra University, so they built up a fanbase in Nassau because of the local connection. Then they moved to north Jersey, and the proportion went back down.
Mexico City
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
Mexico City
I could see that working....much much easier than London. 🙄
I have seen only one poll on who is your favorite baseball team . It was a few years ago and for all Illinois and It was a three way split.
I haven't checked TV ratings but the White Sox get attendance when they win and the other 2 always show up though one does win more than the other.
Quote from: 3467 on March 21, 2021, 07:52:18 PM
I have seen only one poll on who is your favorite baseball team . It was a few years ago and for all Illinois and It was a three way split.
I haven't checked TV ratings but the White Sox get attendance when they win and the other 2 always show up though one does win more than the other.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/24/upshot/facebook-baseball-map.html (warning: paywall)
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 21, 2021, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
Mexico City
I could see that working....much much easier than London. 🙄
It could be a huge untapped market.
I agree with the idea that some teams should just be relocated instead of over expanding.
On a bit of a tangent, I am a fan of college football and the bowl games. But having the same areas being the hosts of multiple bowls should have some of those move to other places as well. And I prefer using a more iconic name than a corp sponsor name.
So taking the 44 bowls that are supposed to play in 2021-2022 season, I keep the traditional bowls where they are.
Big 6 & Title:
National Championship - This year, Indianapolis
Rose - Pasadena (Los Angeles)
Peach - Atlanta
Fiesta - Glendale (Phoenix)
Sugar - New Orleans
Orange - Miami
Cotton - Arlington (Dallas)
Other traditional bowls that stay put:
Alamo - San Antonio
Liberty - Memphis
Sun - El Paso
Hawaii - Honolulu
Gator - Jacksonville
Citrus - Orlando
Music City - Nashville
Independence - Shreveport
Holiday - San Diego
Celebration Bowl - Atlanta (Traditionally played between the MEAC and SWAC. I would like to see this site rotate among Atlanta, Charlotte, Washington DC and New Orleans)
Traditional bowls that stay put but get renamed:
Las Vegas - Las Vegas (Rename this the Oasis Bowl or Silver Bowl)
Quick Lane - Detroit (Renamed the Motor City Bowl)
Newer bowls that don't change location or name:
Bahamas - Nassau, Bahamas
Camellia - Montgomery
Idaho Potato - Boise
Fenway - Boston
Military - Annapolis
Myrtle Beach - Myrtle Beach (Possibly renamed the Palmetto Bowl)
Pinstripe - Bronx
New Mexico - Albuquerque
Arizona - Tucson (Possibly renamed the Cactus Bowl)
Gasparilla - Tampa
Newer bowls that stay put but change the name:
Duke's Mayo - Charlotte - Becomes the Queen City Bowl
Lending Tree - Mobile - Becomes the Port Bowl or Azalea Bowl
Texas - Houston - Becomes the Rice Bowl
Red Box - Santa Clara - Becomes the Golden Bowl
Birmingham - Birmingham - Becomes the Iron Bowl (I know that name is used for the rivalry.), Steel Bowl, Legacy Bowl or Veterans Bowl.
LA - Los Angeles - Becomes the Hollywood Bowl or City of Angels Bowl
Bowls that get moved and renamed:
Cheez It - Orlando
Cure - Orlando
Guaranteed Rate - Phoenix
New Orleans Bowl - New Orleans
Boca Raton - Boca Raton
Frisco - Frisco, TX
Bowls that get moved but retain the name:
Armed Forces - Fort Worth
First Responders - Dallas
Outback - Tampa
Metro Areas that have a 50k stadium that do not currently host a yearly bowl and do not have a bowl in the state:
Denver
Kansas City
Green Bay
Chicago
Cleveland
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia
Indianapolis
Minneapolis
Baltimore
Seattle
Cincinnati
State College
Columbus
Madison
Lincoln
Columbia SC
Oklahoma City/Norman
Fayetteville, AR
South Bend
Iowa City
Blacksburg
Oxford, MS
Provo
Columbia, MO
Charlottesville
Des Moines/Ames
Starkville, MS
Louisville
Lexington
Champaign
Stillwater, OK
Morgantown
Lafayette, IN
Eugene
Bloomington, IN
Boulder
Lawrence, KS
Metro Areas that do not have a bowl but there is a bowl somewhere else in the state:
Buffalo
Ann Arbor
Lansing
Tallahassee
Gainesville
Austin
College Station
Tuscaloosa
Knoxville
Baton Rouge
Lubbock
Raleigh
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 21, 2021, 09:24:23 PM
Texas - Houston - Becomes the Rice Bowl
I don't think Rice Bowl would be a good name since Rice University exists in Houston, but that's just my opinion. Something more like the Rodeo Bowl or Magnolia Bowl would be better.
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 21, 2021, 09:36:52 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 21, 2021, 09:24:23 PM
Texas - Houston - Becomes the Rice Bowl
I don't think Rice Bowl would be a good name since Rice University exists in Houston, but that's just my opinion. Something more like the Rodeo Bowl or Magnolia Bowl would be better.
Would not fit there as Mississippi is the Magnolia State.
Quote from: Big John on March 21, 2021, 10:39:24 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 21, 2021, 09:36:52 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 21, 2021, 09:24:23 PM
Texas - Houston - Becomes the Rice Bowl
I don't think Rice Bowl would be a good name since Rice University exists in Houston, but that's just my opinion. Something more like the Rodeo Bowl or Magnolia Bowl would be better.
Would not fit there as Mississippi is the Magnolia State.
One of Houston's many nicknames is the Magnolia City: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicknames_of_Houston#Magnolia_City
I still like Rodeo Bowl better, though.
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 21, 2021, 09:24:23 PM
Metro Areas that have a 50k stadium that do not currently host a yearly bowl and do not have a bowl in the state:
Denver
Kansas City
Green Bay
Chicago
Cleveland
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia
Indianapolis
Minneapolis
Baltimore
Seattle
Cincinnati
State College
Columbus
Madison
Lincoln
Columbia SC
Oklahoma City/Norman
Fayetteville, AR
South Bend
Iowa City
Blacksburg
Oxford, MS
Provo
Columbia, MO
Charlottesville
Des Moines/Ames
Starkville, MS
Louisville
Lexington
Champaign
Stillwater, OK
Morgantown
Lafayette, IN
Eugene
Bloomington, IN
Boulder
Lawrence, KS
Most of these places are not in cities that would be great for winter bowl games and/or aren't cities of a size to a) be interesting for visiting teams and b) have enough hotel rooms. There's a reason the vast majority of bowl games are in the southern parts of the U.S. and in large cities.
Chris
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2021, 08:33:44 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 21, 2021, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
Mexico City
I could see that working....much much easier than London. 🙄
It could be a huge untapped market.
What about Monterrey instead?
Metro area population over 4.6 million
Less than 150 miles from the US border
Top of the list of Mexican cities for livability and quality of life
(History note: for a brief period in 1969, Monterrey had a CFL football team.)
Quote from: kphoger on March 23, 2021, 01:01:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2021, 08:33:44 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 21, 2021, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
Mexico City
I could see that working....much much easier than London. 🙄
It could be a huge untapped market.
What about Monterrey instead?
Metro area population over 4.6 million
Less than 150 miles from the US border
Top of the list of Mexican cities for livability and quality of life
(History note: for a brief period in 1969, Monterrey had a CFL football team.)
The Tequila Bowl, Corona Bowl, Dos XX Bowl
Quote from: Life in Paradise on March 23, 2021, 01:10:36 PM
The Tequila Bowl, Corona Bowl, Dos XX Bowl
How about something that can be in a bowl? Nacho Bowl.
Quote from: Life in Paradise on March 23, 2021, 01:10:36 PM
Dos XX
You mean 'Dos Equis'. Whose symbol is a big red XX.
Quote from: 1 on March 23, 2021, 01:13:50 PM
How about something that can be in a bowl? Nacho Bowl.
Hey! That's nacho cheese!
Quote from: kphoger on March 23, 2021, 02:34:49 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on March 23, 2021, 01:10:36 PM
Dos XX
You mean 'Dos Equis'. Whose symbol is a big red XX.
Quote from: 1 on March 23, 2021, 01:13:50 PM
How about something that can be in a bowl? Nacho Bowl.
Hey! That's nacho cheese!
A great opportunity to sell nacho hats??
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/ec/16/01/ec1601393d6bf377a2346cc1dfe899ac--nachos-the-simpsons.jpg)
Quote from: kphoger on March 23, 2021, 01:01:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2021, 08:33:44 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 21, 2021, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
Mexico City
I could see that working....much much easier than London. 🙄
It could be a huge untapped market.
What about Monterrey instead?
Metro area population over 4.6 million
Less than 150 miles from the US border
Top of the list of Mexican cities for livability and quality of life
(History note: for a brief period in 1969, Monterrey had a CFL football team.)
You will still probably get more money off of Mexico City's 21.8 million metro pop
Yeah, I get that. I just dislike the idea of an expansion team being 700 miles south of the border, rather than 150.
IMHO,
MLB - MLB's expansion to Florida and Arizona, which was done to raise cash to pay off the damages in the trumped up "collusion" case, was a mistake. Tampa is never going to work. Time to move back to Montreal. Oakland is broke and it's time to follow the Raiders to Nevada. Really no other city makes any sense at this time.
NFL - Is not going to expand anytime soon.
NBA - The NBA is vastly less popular than ESPN would like you to think it is. Part of its act is to rub up against some AAA city and tell they if they bankrupt the town to build an arena, they can be "big time" too. Cities continue to fall for it.
NHL - The NHL is fine, thank you very much, at a math friendly 32. The Leafs will NEVER allow a team in Hamilton, nor should they. Quebec City failed once already.
MLS - MLS seems to be a lot like Amtrak. A tiny but loud niche screams and pouts for the government to subsidize their hobby, while 99.9% ignore it totally. Will continue to bounce about from town to town, because soccer is unloved and always will be.
International - The idea of teams in places like Mexico, where teams would take in pesos and pay out US$, and the average income is 1/6th that of the USA, is silly. Just be happy with the USA and Canada.
Relegation - Has no application to any USA sport.
NCAA - Pay the players, which is what NIL is, will DESTROY college athletics. Not destroy them as we know them, but DESTROY them totally.
removed politics
Quote from: SP Cook on March 24, 2021, 10:28:28 AM
International - The idea of teams in places like Mexico, where teams would take in pesos and pay out US$, and the average income is 1/6th that of the USA, is silly. Just be happy with the USA and Canada.
What about MLB in Santo Domingo?
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2021, 10:39:11 AM
What about MLB in Santo Domingo?
The internet is your friend:
"The Dominicans' current average monthly income is RD$41,164 (US$777) for a household with 3.2 members, according to the National Survey of Household Income and Expenditures 2018 published by the Central Bank."
It just does not work. Modern sports figures make tens, if not hundreds, of millions of $$. You cannot generate that kind of money in a place where families live on less than $800/month.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 24, 2021, 10:56:02 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2021, 10:39:11 AM
What about MLB in Santo Domingo?
The internet is your friend:
"The Dominicans' current average monthly income is RD$41,164 (US$777) for a household with 3.2 members, according to the National Survey of Household Income and Expenditures 2018 published by the Central Bank."
It just does not work. Modern sports figures make tens, if not hundreds, of millions of $$. You cannot generate that kind of money in a place where families live on less than $800/month.
Yes, the internet is my friend. That's why I didn't just say the Dominican Republic in general. I said Santo Domingo, which has
an average gross salary of nearly 40,000 USD (https://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/santo-domingo-dominican-republic), and where roughly half the population earns at least 20,000 USD.
Here's an existing baseball stadium in Santo Domingo, which currently hosts two national pro baseball teams:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Estadio_quisqueya_santo_domingo_dominican_republic_3.jpg/360px-Estadio_quisqueya_santo_domingo_dominican_republic_3.jpg)
Not to belabor the point, but most such salary surveys only measure the formal economy. Wage earners. In a place like the DR, where 57% of the non-farmers are working informally (irregularly and for cash or even non-cash benefits like a place to sleep), and 50% are classed as either farmers or the sad term of "excess rural population", such numbers are meaningless.
Its a poor place. Not USA/Canada poor. Real poor. Poor people spend most of their time trying to find their next meal.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 24, 2021, 11:26:06 AM
Not to belabor the point, but most such salary surveys only measure the formal economy. Wage earners. In a place like the DR, where 57% of the non-farmers are working informally (irregularly and for cash or even non-cash benefits like a place to sleep), and 50% are classed as either farmers or the sad term of "excess rural population", such numbers are meaningless.
Its a poor place. Not USA/Canada poor. Real poor. Poor people spend most of their time trying to find their next meal.
You mean, other than all those people who are already paying for stadium tickets?
Baseball I'd definitely grab Austin. We have no major league sports at all and the AAA Express draw well. Move the Florida teams that don't draw
NFL I'd go San Antonio and put the stadium in New Braunfels. SA & Austin are both big enough for a team and growing fast, and putting one in between would be a huge draw.
NHL I'd put some more teams in Canada and get rid of some sun belt teams.
CFL: Quebec City for sure.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 24, 2021, 11:26:06 AM
Not to belabor the point, but most such salary surveys only measure the formal economy. Wage earners. In a place like the DR, where 57% of the non-farmers are working informally (irregularly and for cash or even non-cash benefits like a place to sleep), and 50% are classed as either farmers or the sad term of "excess rural population", such numbers are meaningless.
Its a poor place. Not USA/Canada poor. Real poor. Poor people spend most of their time trying to find their next meal.
Not to belabor the point but, again, I said Santo Domingo specifically. You keep citing numbers for the whole country. Are 57% of non-farmers
in Santo Domingo working informally? Is 50% of the population
in Santo Domingo classified as farmers or rural?
I posted a picture of an actual professional baseball stadium in Santo Domingo, full of ticket-paying fans. The question isn't whether most people in the DR (or even Santo Domingo for that matter) can afford tickets. The question is whether there are enough people in Santo Domingo who
would buy tickets.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 24, 2021, 10:28:28 AM
MLS - MLS seems to be a lot like Amtrak. A tiny but loud niche screams and pouts for the government to subsidize their hobby, while 99.9% ignore it totally. Will continue to bounce about from town to town, because soccer is unloved and always will be.
Most new MLS stadiums are funded privately by their owners with less government involvement and usually are smaller and cheaper (in the $300 million range), unlike the extravagant wastefulness of the other big leagues. Three new stadiums open this year in Austin (where the city owns the land, but did not contribute to the $240 million cost), Columbus ($140 million out of $373 million is considered public funding, but includes infrastructure for a new neighborhood), and Cincinnati ($53 million out of $250 million comes from public funding, with additional payments from the ownership group to provide for a new high school stadium and local improvements), all of which are majority funded by the owners.
MLS has only had one relocation in its entire history (later resolved with an expansion to the original home) and two actual contractions (way back in 2001). By the same logic, the NBA and NFL bounces around from town to town because it's unloved.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 24, 2021, 10:28:28 AM
MLS - MLS seems to be a lot like Amtrak. A tiny but loud niche screams and pouts for the government to subsidize their hobby, while 99.9% ignore it totally. Will continue to bounce about from town to town, because soccer is unloved and always will be.
You forgot to mention Europe in that comparison. Trains are everywhere in Europe, therefore trains should be everywhere in the US. Soccer is huge in Europe, therefore soccer should be huge in the US.
Quote from: Bruce on March 25, 2021, 03:38:58 AM
[facts]
Well, now, why'd you have to go and bring the voice of reason into this?
According to the internet, a DR baseball ticket is $10. Having $10 disposable income in the DR means you are among the elite of the elite.
I spend a lot of time in Central America, mostly in Nicaragua, the second poorest country in the western hemisphere. I can show you pictures of very nice crowds at each of their top sports as well, which are, in order, boxing, baseball and soccer. But they are charging local prices and paying local rates to the players.
Sports discussions about expansion always go down the "why not the third world?" path. The answer is in the question. Because it is the third world.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 25, 2021, 11:00:44 AM
According to the internet, a DR baseball ticket is $10.
Thanks for finding that. I tried to hunt down ticket prices online but couldn't find anything.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 25, 2021, 11:00:44 AM
Having $10 disposable income in the DR means you are among the elite of the elite.
That's overstating things. Ten bucks is the price of about 2½ gallons of gas, or an eight-piece combo at the local fried chicken chain. Plenty of people can afford that.
Now, if ticket prices were equivalent to what they are here in the US, then that's a different story. And that's what I was getting at. How many people in Santo Domingo could and would buy tickets at the price they'd end up being sold for if MLB expanded there? Well, how much would they cost? Could some cost savings due to location allow for lower ticket prices? Many questions I don't know the answer to. All I'm saying is that it might be possible, and that the idea shouldn't simply be shot down by merit of the DR's being a poorer country than ours.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 25, 2021, 11:00:44 AM
I spend a lot of time in Central America, mostly in Nicaragua, the second poorest country in the western hemisphere. I can show you pictures of very nice crowds at each of their top sports as well, which are, in order, boxing, baseball and soccer. But they are charging local prices and paying local rates to the players.
Sports discussions about expansion always go down the "why not the third world?" path. The answer is in the question. Because it is the third world.
And there's the rub. In a place where income disparity is much greater than here, is the number of people wealthy and interested enough to pay MLB ticket prices enough to make it financially viable?
Quote from: SP Cook on March 25, 2021, 11:00:44 AM
Sports discussions about expansion always go down the "why not the third world?" path. The answer is in the question. Because it is the third world.
My worry about it has nothing to do with the relative affluence of the area. My concern is always "would the players want to live there?". There was that issue/concern with the Canadian pro teams until people realized how nice Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal are.
Chris
Maybe we'd get back to having a team or two whose players are actually from the area they play for.
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 22, 2021, 01:19:47 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 21, 2021, 09:24:23 PM
Metro Areas that have a 50k stadium that do not currently host a yearly bowl and do not have a bowl in the state:
Denver
Kansas City
Green Bay
Chicago
Cleveland
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia
Indianapolis
Minneapolis
Baltimore
Seattle
Cincinnati
State College
Columbus
Madison
Lincoln
Columbia SC
Oklahoma City/Norman
Fayetteville, AR
South Bend
Iowa City
Blacksburg
Oxford, MS
Provo
Columbia, MO
Charlottesville
Des Moines/Ames
Starkville, MS
Louisville
Lexington
Champaign
Stillwater, OK
Morgantown
Lafayette, IN
Eugene
Bloomington, IN
Boulder
Lawrence, KS
Most of these places are not in cities that would be great for winter bowl games and/or aren't cities of a size to a) be interesting for visiting teams and b) have enough hotel rooms. There's a reason the vast majority of bowl games are in the southern parts of the U.S. and in large cities.
Chris
It would only be 9 bowls that would move out of what I proposed. If you can have a game played at Yankee Stadium yearly, that kind of waters down the argument of it needing to be a warm weather climate. Plus, you have a few domes that are not being used in the north. See Indianapolis and Minneapolis. You don't think Denver or Seattle would draw? There are options. And yes they could even go international with Monterey, Mexico City or Toronto easily. And as for your argument about the smaller markets, let me point out Shreveport, Birmingham, Myrtle Beach, El Paso, Frisco, and Albuquerque.
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 29, 2021, 02:05:36 PM
It would only be 9 bowls that would move out of what I proposed. If you can have a game played at Yankee Stadium yearly, that kind of waters down the argument of it needing to be a warm weather climate. Plus, you have a few domes that are not being used in the north. See Indianapolis and Minneapolis. You don't think Denver or Seattle would draw? There are options. And yes they could even go international with Monterey, Mexico City or Toronto easily. And as for your argument about the smaller markets, let me point out Shreveport, Birmingham, Myrtle Beach, El Paso, Frisco, and Albuquerque.
Specifically related to Denver, I'd say no. This is not a college football town. Back when CU was good in the 90's, maybe people cared. People care a little bit when CU and CSU play, but this is definitely a pro-sports town only.
Re: the smaller markets, Louisiana, Alabama, South Carolina, and Texas are definitely college football havens. Albuquerque doesn't have pro sports, so in theory they would be more interested in college sports. The 2019 New Mexico Bowl drew a whopping 18,823. That basically goes to prove my point.
Chris