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Regional Boards => Mid-South => Topic started by: Wayward Memphian on May 11, 2021, 04:30:05 PM

Title: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 11, 2021, 04:30:05 PM
Further underscores the need for additional bridges at Memphis.

https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/11/emergency-roadwork-shutdowns-i-bridge/
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 11, 2021, 04:40:20 PM
And it figures that it's the bridge with less capacity (only 4 lanes as opposed to 6) that's having to bear the traffic load.

This will be a nightmare for as long as I-40 is closed.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 11, 2021, 05:02:10 PM
Further underscores the need for additional bridges at Memphis.

https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/11/emergency-roadwork-shutdowns-i-bridge/

Beat me to it.  KARK is broadcasting live
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on May 11, 2021, 05:04:37 PM
I read "Crack shuts down I-40 bridge until further notice" and thought, wow, that's a hell of a party!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 11, 2021, 05:20:31 PM
Last report it will be tomorrow morning at the earliest that the bridge will reopen.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: JMoses24 on May 11, 2021, 06:10:57 PM
Reminds me of I-64 at Louisville, which was shut down for months.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 11, 2021, 07:48:54 PM
Reminds me of I-64 at Louisville, which was shut down for months.

I-40 was closed at Webbers Falls, Oklahoma  in 2002  for 2 months due to an accident
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 11, 2021, 08:45:05 PM
Reminds me of I-64 at Louisville, which was shut down for months.

I-40 was closed at Webbers Falls, Oklahoma  in 2002  for 2 months due to an accident

Accident as in the damn thing collapsed.

This a bit different as the truck traffic is way more considerable.

Former State Sentator Ingram is saying it is a crack in the support structure and it will take a considerable amount of time to fix and this falls on Tenn to fix per existing agreement.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Georgia on May 11, 2021, 08:57:21 PM
Reminds me of I-64 at Louisville, which was shut down for months.

I-40 was closed at Webbers Falls, Oklahoma  in 2002  for 2 months due to an accident

Accident as in the damn thing collapsed.

This a bit different as the truck traffic is way more considerable.

Former State Sentator Ingram is saying it is a crack in the support structure and it will take a considerable amount of time to fix and this falls on Tenn to fix per existing agreement.

Arkansas inspects and Tennessee repairs? is that correct? saw it on a Memphis area news site.
If it is a substansial amount of money and time, I cant believe they wouldnt cost share.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Road Hog on May 11, 2021, 09:14:21 PM
Great opportunity to give a dry run to post-New Madrid detour options?

Rhetorical question. There are none.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US 89 on May 11, 2021, 11:17:48 PM
Holy shit, I just drove over this on Saturday. Looks like I did that just in time.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 12, 2021, 12:06:37 AM
This might be a strong clue they need to make I-269 a complete loop around the Memphis metro, starting with a new bridge near Tunica going West across the Mississippi River and up to I-40.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ilpt4u on May 12, 2021, 12:25:06 AM
This might be a strong clue they need to make I-269 a complete loop around the Memphis metro, starting with a new bridge near Tunica going West across the Mississippi River and up to I-40.
For Thru I-40 traffic, I would think the Northern Crossing for a potential I-269 across the Mississippi would make more sense to get done first

That, and I want to put Tennessee on the hook for Mississippi River Crossing Capacity improvements, not Mississippi, for greater Memphis

The Northern Crossing would be better as a redundancy for both Thru I-40 and Thru I-55

The I-269 Southern Crossing to Tunica makes sense for gamblers

Heck, a bridge over the Mississippi where I-40 meets (future) I-69, north of town, due west from there, and tie it into the current I-40/55 west split in Arkansas, would also work.

I am delving into the world of Fictional, tho, so I will stop
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 12, 2021, 01:04:42 AM
This might be a strong clue they need to make I-269 a complete loop around the Memphis metro, starting with a new bridge near Tunica going West across the Mississippi River and up to I-40.
For Thru I-40 traffic, I would think the Northern Crossing for a potential I-269 across the Mississippi would make more sense to get done first

That, and I want to put Tennessee on the hook for Mississippi River Crossing Capacity improvements, not Mississippi, for greater Memphis

The Northern Crossing would be better as a redundancy for both Thru I-40 and Thru I-55

The I-269 Southern Crossing to Tunica makes sense for gamblers

Heck, a bridge over the Mississippi where I-40 meets (future) I-69, north of town, due west from there, and tie it into the current I-40/55 west split in Arkansas, would also work.

I am delving into the world of Fictional, tho, so I will stop
A southern I-269 crossing would provide a through traffic bypass of Memphis entirely for only I-55 traffic. A northern I-269 crossing would provide a through traffic bypass of Memphis entirely for I-40 traffic, though still provide a third alternative for I-55 traffic but still requiring passage through Memphis. If a northern I-269 crossing is constructed, the segment of I-69 between I-40 and I-269 would need to also be constructed to provide some sort of system continuity otherwise you would have to leave the interstate system if you're following I-55 North attempting to reach it.

I would agree a northern crossing would be the more viable alternative, however in a perfect world both would be built.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 12, 2021, 08:52:09 AM
This might be a strong clue they need to make I-269 a complete loop around the Memphis metro, starting with a new bridge near Tunica going West across the Mississippi River and up to I-40.

It's what I have been saying for years here and the Lehi to Tunica option needs to be first. The crap that is going on inside Memphis on the freeways is yet another reason. Those being look out cars followed by racing. Intentional slowdowns for burnout sessions and the random shootings.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 12, 2021, 08:57:47 AM
This might be a strong clue they need to make I-269 a complete loop around the Memphis metro, starting with a new bridge near Tunica going West across the Mississippi River and up to I-40.
For Thru I-40 traffic, I would think the Northern Crossing for a potential I-269 across the Mississippi would make more sense to get done first

That, and I want to put Tennessee on the hook for Mississippi River Crossing Capacity improvements, not Mississippi, for greater Memphis

The Northern Crossing would be better as a redundancy for both Thru I-40 and Thru I-55

The I-269 Southern Crossing to Tunica makes sense for gamblers

Heck, a bridge over the Mississippi where I-40 meets (future) I-69, north of town, due west from there, and tie it into the current I-40/55 west split in Arkansas, would also work.

I am delving into the world of Fictional, tho, so I will stop
A southern I-269 crossing would provide a through traffic bypass of Memphis entirely for only I-55 traffic. A northern I-269 crossing would provide a through traffic bypass of Memphis entirely for I-40 traffic, though still provide a third alternative for I-55 traffic but still requiring passage through Memphis. If a northern I-269 crossing is constructed, the segment of I-69 between I-40 and I-269 would need to also be constructed to provide some sort of system continuity otherwise you would have to leave the interstate system if you're following I-55 North attempting to reach it.

I would agree a northern crossing would be the more viable alternative, however in a perfect world both would be built.

A northern bridge should be connected near the I-55/I-555 interchange at Turrell and where I-69/I-269 will meet.. it should be considered a major part of a possible extention of I-22 using that and the basic US 412 path across northern Arkansas.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Marc on May 12, 2021, 10:59:04 AM
Just in time for my trip to Memphis on Saturday. I guess I’m leaving Austin extra early.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 12, 2021, 11:16:17 AM
Per KNWA News

Quote
In an inspection for the 2020 National Bridge Inventory report, the Federal Highway Administration said the I-40 bridge checked out in fair condition overall, with all primary structure elements sound and only some minor cracks and chips in the overall structure. Its structural evaluation checked out “somewhat better than minimum adequacy to tolerate being left in place as is.”

However, height and width clearances for oversize vehicles were “basically intolerable requiring high priority of corrective action,” the inspectors found. Tennessee recommended “bridge deck replacement with only incidental widening.”

Sounds like TDOT knows more than ARDOT
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: armadillo speedbump on May 12, 2021, 11:19:56 AM
This might be a strong clue they need to make I-269 a complete loop around the Memphis metro, starting with a new bridge near Tunica going West across the Mississippi River and up to I-40.

It should be a stronger clue to use more of our limited funds on proper maintenance and initial quality control, rather than massively expensive new routes of questionable need.   
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 12, 2021, 11:40:30 AM
This might be a strong clue they need to make I-269 a complete loop around the Memphis metro, starting with a new bridge near Tunica going West across the Mississippi River and up to I-40.
For Thru I-40 traffic, I would think the Northern Crossing for a potential I-269 across the Mississippi would make more sense to get done first

That, and I want to put Tennessee on the hook for Mississippi River Crossing Capacity improvements, not Mississippi, for greater Memphis

The Northern Crossing would be better as a redundancy for both Thru I-40 and Thru I-55

The I-269 Southern Crossing to Tunica makes sense for gamblers

Heck, a bridge over the Mississippi where I-40 meets (future) I-69, north of town, due west from there, and tie it into the current I-40/55 west split in Arkansas, would also work.

I am delving into the world of Fictional, tho, so I will stop


For I-22 traffic, the Southern crossing makes more sense.  For I-55, the southern route works best.  As I have argued before, I-69 makes no sense crossing at Arkansas City. If you are going to build a new bridge in NW Mississippi anyway, it makes bridging the Arkansas and White rivers less cost prohibitive.  Louisville that is similar sized to Memphis, has 4 crossings of the Ohio.  Saint Louis has 6 crossings of the Mississippi. I will agree that on the lower Mississippi, there are not more than two currently across the Mississippi. Baton Rouge has two and is clamoring for another. New Orleans completed the expansion of the Huey P Long bridge in the past decade more or less.  I-10 is the only 2DI that crosses the Mississippi below the southern border with Mississippi in LA. I-55 and I-40 cross it at Memphis, and I-22 ends nearby.

Memphis needs an additional bridge. So does Baton Rouge. I think without a doubt, that it is probably next after the I-49 expansion on LA's major priority list.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 12, 2021, 11:48:36 AM
Just in time for my trip to Memphis on Saturday. I guess I’m leaving Austin extra early.

I might avoid crossing at Memphis altogether.  That said, unless you want to enjoy the scenery, there is not a time efficient way to go.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: TheArkansasRoadgeek on May 12, 2021, 01:43:08 PM
Good thing I can still get across! I am taking a job in TN at the moment.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: TheArkansasRoadgeek on May 12, 2021, 01:47:47 PM
Holy shit, I just drove over this on Saturday. Looks like I did that just in time.
Same.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: JREwing78 on May 12, 2021, 02:22:49 PM
That's not just a crack! Yikes!

https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/no-timeline-when-i-40-bridge-could-reopen-officials-say/6GIZ3HIP7VF3ZCK3KGTFUY5HVQ/ (https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/no-timeline-when-i-40-bridge-could-reopen-officials-say/6GIZ3HIP7VF3ZCK3KGTFUY5HVQ/)
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: jmacswimmer on May 12, 2021, 02:29:34 PM
^

That looks very similar to what happened on the Delaware River Turnpike Toll Bridge in early 2017...I think that closure lasted a month & a half IIRC.

For reference:
(https://media.phillyvoice.com/media/images/01232017_DRTBridge_TrussCrack_200.width-500.jpg)
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: jerryarkansas on May 12, 2021, 02:31:07 PM
That's not just a crack! Yikes!

https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/no-timeline-when-i-40-bridge-could-reopen-officials-say/6GIZ3HIP7VF3ZCK3KGTFUY5HVQ/ (https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/no-timeline-when-i-40-bridge-could-reopen-officials-say/6GIZ3HIP7VF3ZCK3KGTFUY5HVQ/)
That looks like a I-35W waiting to happen.  Glad it got caught
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 12, 2021, 03:10:21 PM
That's not just a crack! Yikes!

https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/no-timeline-when-i-40-bridge-could-reopen-officials-say/6GIZ3HIP7VF3ZCK3KGTFUY5HVQ/ (https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/no-timeline-when-i-40-bridge-could-reopen-officials-say/6GIZ3HIP7VF3ZCK3KGTFUY5HVQ/)

On one of the slides they called it a fracture. I think the issue is how to replace that element without the whole thing coming down. This piece of what looks like box beam is what the suspension rods from the upper truss connect to. It is too close to the adjacent gussett plate to add just a patch in the  the same way.  I would assume that the joints, either welded or connected with rivets, were made under the supports probably with a nominally smaller tube inside extended several feet either direction. 

This bridge weighs significantly more with the deck and the other details that were added after the truss structure was finished. I think it can be repaired, but it may rival the rebuild of the Huey Long bridge in Jefferson Parish.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sturmde on May 12, 2021, 03:16:47 PM
A southern crossing of I-269 isn't just about gamblers.  It's a very valid ALT for I-40 looping south and then west to get back on the way to Little Rock.  I-269 is done all the way around the east and south side of Memphis.  On the north side, the future 269 (TN 385) dead ends at US 51.  You've still got miles to get to the river.
.
On the south side, you have no environmental issues with a park, neighborhoods, etc.  It's flat, it's undeveloped, it's easy to get back to 55 and/or the 40/55 intersection, or even further west on 40, with a spur up to the 40/55 intersection.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 12, 2021, 03:29:48 PM
Problem is, nobody in their right mind is going to head that far south to bypass Memphis just to come back north. It would add too much time to be an effective bypass. North actually has potential.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 12, 2021, 03:48:53 PM
That's not just a crack! Yikes!

https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/no-timeline-when-i-40-bridge-could-reopen-officials-say/6GIZ3HIP7VF3ZCK3KGTFUY5HVQ/ (https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/no-timeline-when-i-40-bridge-could-reopen-officials-say/6GIZ3HIP7VF3ZCK3KGTFUY5HVQ/)

Almost like calling a hurricane a slight breeze. That is definitely worrysome. Hard to believe it just "appeared" in the last year or two.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikieTimT on May 12, 2021, 04:06:09 PM
Problem is, nobody in their right mind is going to head that far south to bypass Memphis just to come back north. It would add too much time to be an effective bypass. North actually has potential.

That's assuming that a large chunk of the traffic is I-40 continuing on I-40.  I know that I have always taken I-55 South to get through Memphis to either go across northern US-72 to visit family in NE Mississippi, or along I-22 to go to Florida/Alabama to the beach from Arkansas.  There's a fair amount of population in the middle part of the US that takes that same route to Florida or Alabama as the alternative is a great number of miles on US highways in depressed parts of Arkansas and Mississippi, or swinging south to I-10, which adds a fair amount of mileage.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: triplemultiplex on May 12, 2021, 04:06:33 PM
"There's your problem, right there:"
(https://cmg-cmg-tv-10060-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/FbwBL9dIL39CDXilm4XrhHEQcB0=/1440x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/cmg/42PA7L5TSFFDJFUQOC5IWW3M6Y.jpg)
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 12, 2021, 04:12:17 PM
Problem is, nobody in their right mind is going to head that far south to bypass Memphis just to come back north. It would add too much time to be an effective bypass. North actually has potential.

I would agree with you on  I-40 as a through route.  This MIGHT be the one time that a northern loop MIGHT be able to get through the muck.
On a southern route, I -55 to I-55 is great. I-22 to I-40 is great.  Adding an additional emergency route (as opposed to a redundant route) is worthwhile.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 12, 2021, 04:26:07 PM
^

That is a true point.

In a perfect world, I-269 should cross the Mississippi River both north and south.
Title: Hernando Desoto Bridge Closed
Post by: roadman65 on May 12, 2021, 04:47:16 PM
https://wreg.com/news/all-lanes-of-hernando-desoto-bridge-in-downtown-memphis-shut-down-due-to-maintenance/

I would hate to be in this area with only I-55 carrying the load.
Title: Re: Hernando Desoto Bridge Closed
Post by: jayhawkco on May 12, 2021, 04:55:06 PM
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29298.0;topicseen
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: abqtraveler on May 12, 2021, 05:05:34 PM
"There's your problem, right there:"
(https://cmg-cmg-tv-10060-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/FbwBL9dIL39CDXilm4XrhHEQcB0=/1440x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/cmg/42PA7L5TSFFDJFUQOC5IWW3M6Y.jpg)
Yeaaah...that's no good. They'll need to replace that entire structural member before they reopen the bridge. It's doable...take a look at how they replaced all of the structural members in the Chicago Skyway while keeping it open to traffic. For the Chicago Skyway refurbishment, they replaced structural members by placing temporary assemblies consisting of saddles and tie rods--called "chords"-- around the structural member to be replaced. The load was transferred to the chords while the original structural member was cut away and a new structural member was installed. Afterward, the chord was removed, and work proceeded to the next structural member to be replaced.

But...they'll need to perform a complete end-to-end inspection to make sure there are no additional structural cracks before re-opening the bridge.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ozarkman417 on May 12, 2021, 05:14:57 PM
When I was in Memphis on I-55 two months ago, I-55 traffic was backed up for about a third or so of that particular bridge, on a Saturday afternoon. According to this screenshot of Google Maps traffic, it is much, much worse.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51174315357_a8725f97f8.jpg)

Basically, This situation is made so much worse by the one lane, TOTSO setup on I-55.
Title: Re: Hernando Desoto Bridge Closed
Post by: roadman65 on May 12, 2021, 05:15:45 PM
Yeah I looked for it here, but didn’t see it.

Okay I see it falls under mid south.  Southeast should be Eastern Tennessee not Tennessee.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Lyon Wonder on May 12, 2021, 05:37:53 PM
Maybe they should twin the existing I-40 bridge and build a new parallel span since the current bridge doesn't have shoulders in its current 6 lane configuration and set both bridges as 8 lanes with 4 lanes in each direction.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 12, 2021, 05:46:24 PM

Basically, This situation is made so much worse by the one lane, TOTSO setup on I-55.

It doesn't help any, but THIS TIME, for the I-40 through traffic, it actually is a help that Crump BLVD is through as it is the probable path for the majority of the traffic.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20377.msg2603607#msg2603607 Is a whole thread about the intersection. It is pending upgrade, but that has been postponed a couple of times.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: abqtraveler on May 12, 2021, 06:15:17 PM

Basically, This situation is made so much worse by the one lane, TOTSO setup on I-55.

It doesn't help any, but THIS TIME, for the I-40 through traffic, it actually is a help that Crump BLVD is through as it is the probable path for the majority of the traffic.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20377.msg2603607#msg2603607 Is a whole thread about the intersection. It is pending upgrade, but that has been postponed a couple of times.

This incident will probably light a fire under TDOT's butt to get the I-55/Crump interchange reconfiguration done. It's a similar situation where the Ohio River Bridges project between Louisville, Kentucky and southern Indiana was stalled until structural cracks forced the closure of the Sherman Minton Bridge that carries I-64 over the Ohio River. The Sherman Minton Bridge has a design that is very similar to the Hernando DeSoto Bridge. When the Sherman Minton Bridge got shut down, things started moving very quickly to get the Ohio River Bridges project underway, and now that project is complete.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 12, 2021, 07:40:19 PM
A southern crossing of I-269 isn't just about gamblers.  It's a very valid ALT for I-40 looping south and then west to get back on the way to Little Rock.  I-269 is done all the way around the east and south side of Memphis.  On the north side, the future 269 (TN 385) dead ends at US 51.  You've still got miles to get to the river.
.
On the south side, you have no environmental issues with a park, neighborhoods, etc.  It's flat, it's undeveloped, it's easy to get back to 55 and/or the 40/55 intersection, or even further west on 40, with a spur up to the 40/55 intersection.


It has nothing to do with Gambling. West Memphis won in the end for the most part.

It benefits Ark more economically for the Southern end to be done first or if only one was built. I would make sure the feed off of I-40 would be nearly the Super Site and the intermodal yard.  A southern bridge would allow that to flow to North Ms where all the newer DC s are being built and also make the Arkansas side more attractive. As it would be the defacto best routing between the intermodal in Marion with the one in Rossville TN and the one along Lamar Ave in Memphis. It would also allow the quickest way for Memphis to fix their end of the Old Bridge.


A Southern Bridge at Memphis and combining that with a 6 lane I-40 between Little Rock and Memphis make I-69 and it's bridge much less necessary.


Now imagine if this fracture was found after they had shut down the old bridge like TN wanted to do to do that job.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikeTheActuary on May 12, 2021, 08:09:38 PM
You know....growing up in Memphis as a roadgeek and lover of maps, with a father who worked for the local planning office and let me decorate my room with spare long-range planning maps from his office, I dreamed up additional Mississippi River crossings and got to see what the professionals were tossing around.

At that time...over 30 years ago...development projections, through traffic flows, environmental concerns, and geology all pointed to a southern crossing being more likely than a northern crossing...although lack of funding and environmental issues make either extremely improbable.

When I was doodling, I had a new I-55 extending south from the I-40/I-55 junction, crossing at President's Island, hooking in to the "elbow" of existing I-55 in Memphis...but that was probably my doodling informed by my father's critiquing than informed knowledge.   I-269/I-69 in Mississippi wasn't a thing then (the closest thing on the MPO wishlist was a parkway just north of the MS/TN stateline, part of a system of which only the northern and eastern segments, now TN 385/I-269, got built)....but I suspect if they were to ever build a southern bridge, it would now hook into I-69 near the casinos, rather than the I-55 "elbow".
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 12, 2021, 08:19:08 PM
"There's your problem, right there:"
(https://cmg-cmg-tv-10060-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/FbwBL9dIL39CDXilm4XrhHEQcB0=/1440x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/cmg/42PA7L5TSFFDJFUQOC5IWW3M6Y.jpg)

That's no "crack": that is structural failure from where I sit,
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ilpt4u on May 12, 2021, 08:35:19 PM
I find it interesting that the inspector that found the fracture (not calling that a “crack”) called 911 to get Memphis/TN Officials/Police to close the Tennessee approach

From the call, he IDs himself as a bridge inspector with ArDOT and his superiors agreed that the bridge needs closed, immediately...but I just don’t expect your average 911 Dispatcher getting the “Close the Interstate Bridge” call very often.

I imagine there is a bit of protocol for a 911 Dispatcher before that call is connected to either State or City Police to begin the process of closing an Interstate Mississippi River Bridge

I listened to both 911 calls at this site: https://www.kark.com/news/local-news/we-need-to-get-people-off-the-bridge-as-soon-as-possible-hear-bridge-crews-frantic-911-calls-after-i-40-bridge-crack-found/

Almost sounds like in the first call, that the 911 Dispatcher almost thought this was a blow off/prank call. Hard to tell how seriously she took the report

The second call, the 911 Dispatcher at least wanted more information, and clearly points out she needs more information and authorization before she can forward the request to shut down the Interstate River Bridge, and even gets a contact number fron the reporting inspector of an ArDOT Official to check the backstory out
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikeTheActuary on May 12, 2021, 08:43:16 PM
Not sure whether this is paywalled, but.... https://dailymemphian.com/section/metro/article/21880/i-40-mississippi-river-bridge-could-be-closed-months#/questions

(The Daily Memphian is an online newspaper founded by journalists let go from the Commercial Appeal as its newsroom was decimated.)

No significant update to what's already been said here, but on the subject of a third bridge, it's written:

Quote
The idea of building a third bridge across the Mississippi has been under discussion, off and on, for many years.

Bobby White, chief public policy officer for the Greater Memphis Chamber, said the I-40 bridge closure may help bring those discussions back to the forefront of the community’s consciousness.

“It’s absolutely critical for economic development, not only for the community, but for the country,” White said. “We’ve been trying to reboot that.”

The 2006 third bridge study discussed several potential routes, with costs ranging from $501 million to $709 million for cars, plus $332 million to $443 million for a bridge designed to accommodate trains as well. However, those were estimates given in 2010 dollars.

At the news briefing, Degges said the actual construction cost would be $1.5 billion “if it’s a nickel.”

Information on the third bridge study can be found here: https://www.tdot.tn.gov/PublicDocuments/TransportationStudies/MRCstudy.pdf

It, of course, creates a mockery of my prior post, by seeming to prefer a northern crossing hooking into TN-300/to-be-built I-69.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ilpt4u on May 12, 2021, 09:18:26 PM
^^^^^^^^ That TDOT 3rd Bridge Study looked at a corridor between the Western 40-55 Split in Arkansas and the (future) I-69 stub leading to I-40 north of Memphis as a possible option

Good to know the professionals that get paid to do this stuff, saw that as an obvious opportunity for a corridor and MS River Crossing. Heck, if it were ever built, I’d route mainline I-40 onto it

I only skimmed the report - but it doesn’t look like they really looked at a Northern 269 crossing, at least not in any of the diagrammed/drawn alternatives
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 12, 2021, 09:34:49 PM
Never been to Memphis, but this looks pretty bad from a traffic perspective.

From a bridge engineering point of view, which I am not qualified to speak to, except it reminds me to some extent of the closure of the Turnpike Bridge (formerly I-276, now I-95) between Pennsylvania and New Jersey over the Delaware River in 2017.  The owners were fortunate that the fracture on that bridge was over dry land.  No such luck here.

There's no freeway connection  between the westbound I-40 closure point and access to I-55 northbound (really westbound here) to get across the river. I suppose the suggested detour will be I-240 to I-55?

The I-40 Hernando Desoto Bridge is six lanes wide. The I-55 Memphis Arkansas Bridge is only four lanes, and at the east end, traffic must go through what looks like a pretty elderly cloverleaf interchange (as discussed above).

All of which will be interesting to see how Tennessee and Arkansas deal with the closure.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ilpt4u on May 12, 2021, 09:48:01 PM
Never been to Memphis, but this looks pretty bad from a traffic perspective.

There's no freeway connection  between the westbound I-40 closure point and access to I-55 northbound (really westbound here) to get across the river. I suppose the suggested detour will be I-240 to I-55?
I would hope TDOT is using VMSs along WB I-40, before reaching I-240, to have Arkansas-bound traffic use I-240 South as the preferred alternate to get to the I-55 bridge

And for EB I-40, use VMSs on I-55 South advising I-40 EB traffic to follow I-240 EB

If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikeTheActuary on May 12, 2021, 10:05:00 PM
Never been to Memphis, but this looks pretty bad from a traffic perspective.

There's no freeway connection  between the westbound I-40 closure point and access to I-55 northbound (really westbound here) to get across the river. I suppose the suggested detour will be I-240 to I-55?
I would hope TDOT is using VMSs along WB I-40, before reaching I-240, to have Arkansas-bound traffic use I-240 South as the preferred alternate to get to the I-55 bridge

And for EB I-40, use VMSs on I-55 South advising I-40 EB traffic to follow I-240 EB

If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN

I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Revive 755 on May 12, 2021, 10:19:27 PM
I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.

There aren't any permanent message boards around Jackson, TN where traffic could divert up towards the I-155 bridge?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 12, 2021, 10:20:05 PM
If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 12, 2021, 10:21:17 PM
I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.

There aren't any permanent message boards around Jackson, TN where traffic could divert up towards the I-155 bridge?
I don’t think their main goal is to route traffic around Memphis, they’re merely just shifting onto the I-55 bridge. They may unofficially recommend it elsewhere, but on VMS and such, not sure if it’s appropriate. But who knows.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ilpt4u on May 12, 2021, 10:24:01 PM
If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.
Depending on travel times to cross the I-55 bridge (not sure of Memphis’s typical traffic patterns), a 1 hour diversion could be worth it at peak river crossing times
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 12, 2021, 10:25:48 PM
If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.
Depending on travel times to cross the I-55 bridge (not sure of Memphis’s typical traffic patterns), a 1 hour diversion could be worth it at peak river crossing times
True, but again, is it worth signing that as an official detour route, that far out, with that many directions?

Besides, I-40 -> I-55 -> I-155 is a faster route and more worthy of being an “official” detour.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ilpt4u on May 12, 2021, 10:31:13 PM
If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.
Depending on travel times to cross the I-55 bridge (not sure of Memphis’s typical traffic patterns), a 1 hour diversion could be worth it at peak river crossing times
True, but again, is it worth signing that as an official detour route, that far out, with that many directions?

Besides, I-40 -> I-55 -> I-155 is a faster route and more worthy of being an “official” detour.
Meh, when I checked Google Maps, the US 67 route was within 5 minutes of the I-55 route. At current time, it does add about 40-50 minutes of travel time

If I drove freight for a living, I’d take the longer route if I were due to hit Memphis at a “rush hour” time. Stop and Go traffic has its own hazards. Of course, these days, there are truckers out there that have a GPS-dictated route that cannot be deviated from
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on May 12, 2021, 11:02:10 PM
^

That looks very similar to what happened on the Delaware River Turnpike Toll Bridge in early 2017...I think that closure lasted a month & a half IIRC.

For reference:
(https://media.phillyvoice.com/media/images/01232017_DRTBridge_TrussCrack_200.width-500.jpg)

You are right, they look identical. Stress fracture near a significant joint.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: NE2 on May 12, 2021, 11:25:56 PM
Why not let the free market operate as it should? Keep the bridge open and let every motorist decide for themselves whether it's worth the chance of collapse to save time.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikeTheActuary on May 13, 2021, 12:15:38 AM
I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.

There aren't any permanent message boards around Jackson, TN where traffic could divert up towards the I-155 bridge?

There weren't any VMSs when I last went through Jackson, just as things were locking down last year.

Nothing shows on SmartWay (I checked).
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 13, 2021, 12:43:11 AM
From an article.

The New Bridge carried around 41k vehicles per day, 30% commercial trucks. The Old Bridge carries around 55K  with 14K being trucks. The smaller bridge already carried more traffic in normal times.

It has also closed barge traffic.and there's this
Quote

“It’s fortunate this fracture was discovered during a routine inspection and not as part of an investigation following a catastrophic incident,” Arkansas Trucking Association President Shannon Newton said in a statement. “However, it doesn’t change the fact that this closure will have a significant ripple effect on the already strained supply chain. Between increased consumer demand, the driver shortage and now a major bottleneck in Memphis, shippers and consumers across the country should be prepared for longer shipping times until the I-40 Hernando de Soto Bridge is re-opened.”



https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/highway-official-memphis-bridge-fracture-could-have-caused-catastrophic-event/
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 13, 2021, 12:56:57 AM
I suppose it's a good thing I-40 hadn't carried more traffic. Imagine something like 70,000 or 100,000 AADT... even more load (no pun intended) being put on the I-55 bridge.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: wriddle082 on May 13, 2021, 07:57:38 AM
I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.

There aren't any permanent message boards around Jackson, TN where traffic could divert up towards the I-155 bridge?

Probably not yet.  They are in the process of six-lane widening I-40 in the vicinity of Jackson.  I would assume that the finished product would include sone sort of permanent overhead VMSs.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ilpt4u on May 13, 2021, 08:44:05 AM
Since all traffic is using the I-55 bridge, shifting some I-55 Thru Traffic wouldn't hurt either. Would TDOT and KYTC recommend using US 51/Future I-69 to either the I-155 Bridge or continuing up I-69, depending on route? And southbound, MoDOT advise the I-155 to US 51 route as the "Alternate" route to Memphis due to delays at the now-single Memphis Mississippi River Bridge?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 13, 2021, 10:29:41 AM
https://wreg.com/news/how-inspectors-rated-the-i-40-bridge-before-fracture-shut-it-down/
Title: Re: Hernando Desoto Bridge Closed
Post by: bing101 on May 13, 2021, 11:34:12 AM
https://www.localmemphis.com/mobile/article/news/investigations/i-team/barges-trucking-i-40-hernando-de-soto-bridge-shutdown-memphis-supply-chain/522-5f46d889-1b04-4d57-ad2e-a94df93f1ae4
According to the article it's due to cracks on a steel beam.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on May 13, 2021, 12:17:18 PM
From an article.

The New Bridge carried around 41k vehicles per day, 30% commercial trucks. The Old Bridge carries around 55K  with 14K being trucks. The smaller bridge already carried more traffic in normal times.

It has also closed barge traffic.and there's this
Quote

“It’s fortunate this fracture was discovered during a routine inspection and not as part of an investigation following a catastrophic incident,” Arkansas Trucking Association President Shannon Newton said in a statement. “However, it doesn’t change the fact that this closure will have a significant ripple effect on the already strained supply chain. Between increased consumer demand, the driver shortage and now a major bottleneck in Memphis, shippers and consumers across the country should be prepared for longer shipping times until the I-40 Hernando de Soto Bridge is re-opened.”


https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/highway-official-memphis-bridge-fracture-could-have-caused-catastrophic-event/

Hogwash. The railroads are still open for transcon freight movements and those bridges are still working just fine. "longer shipping times" as in 1 day at the max. Talk about hyperbole. The driver shortage will cause more issues than just 1 bridge.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 13, 2021, 12:44:48 PM
This bridge is NOT a standard truss bridge. This is a tied arch bridge (or maybe a bowstring truss... the written descriptions all say tied arch, so I want to trust them.)  The arch is like the main cables on a suspension bridge  The rods going down to below the deck equate to the suspender cables. The beam that is broken segmentally supports the entire side of the bridge deck. . While all this is hanging is the part from the break to the next support, the question is how many of the supports would have to be removed to replace the broken portion. There is no redundant support It may be tricky. It may be possible to engineer a patch That likely would be welded , bolted, or riveted into place. Using this approach, likely it would extend like a  sarcophagus past the previous (left in the photo) hanger and be connected there.  It might be possible to remove a portion of the beam, but that is dependent on how long the replacement portion would have to be and how to intermediately support the bridge deck while it is removed. It might be possible to either weld up the crack (not a good choice to me,) Weld on a gusset without removing the support, or removing the one closest hanger and replacing the current gusset with an oversized one that extends an appropriate distance past the break.

Hopefully they are inspecting the rest of these elements visually and possibly with x-ray and other NDT methods.

To me the more drastic solution is to take down the deck and replace the beams. This is a 4-6 month minimum downtime. If it comes to this, how do you look forward? In spite of the fact that replacement might be the better solution, fixing this span is necessary if at all possible.  Once it is fixed, it still has some life left in it.


By the way, what is the reasoning to keep it closed to river traffic? Are they expecting an imminent failure? I get taking the weight off of the bridge, but????

I might also add, this break is NOT something that happened in the past week or so. It has been there long enough to rust noticeably. 

Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: silverback1065 on May 13, 2021, 01:11:32 PM
doesn't help that all that traffic has to use that crappy cloverleaf on 55 too.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 13, 2021, 01:14:25 PM
Reminds me of I-64 at Louisville, which was shut down for months.

I-40 was closed at Webbers Falls, Oklahoma  in 2002  for 2 months due to an accident

Accident as in the damn thing collapsed.

This a bit different as the truck traffic is way more considerable.

Former State Sentator Ingram is saying it is a crack in the support structure and it will take a considerable amount of time to fix and this falls on Tenn to fix per existing agreement.

Arkansas inspects and Tennessee repairs? is that correct? saw it on a Memphis area news site.
If it is a substansial amount of money and time, I cant believe they wouldnt cost share.

Isn't most of it already in Tennessee anyway?  I think Tennessee has land on the Arkansas side in that area.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ilpt4u on May 13, 2021, 01:16:57 PM
By the way, what is the reasoning to keep it closed to river traffic? Are they expecting an imminent failure? I get taking the weight off of the bridge, but????
From reports I have read, the justification for the halting of MS River traffic under the bridge is because this is enough of a structural fault that the inspectors and engineers can't yet certify the bridge is able to fully support its own weight.

Assuming a more detailed inspection is underway, pronouncing the bridge is able to hold itself up and support its own weight should come once it can be fully verified, and then MS River traffic will be cleared to resume
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 13, 2021, 01:35:53 PM

Basically, This situation is made so much worse by the one lane, TOTSO setup on I-55.

It doesn't help any, but THIS TIME, for the I-40 through traffic, it actually is a help that Crump BLVD is through as it is the probable path for the majority of the traffic.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20377.msg2603607#msg2603607 Is a whole thread about the intersection. It is pending upgrade, but that has been postponed a couple of times.

doesn't help that all that traffic has to use that crappy cloverleaf on 55 too.

but THIS TIME, for the I-40 through traffic, it actually is a help that Crump BLVD is through as it is the probable path for the majority of I-40 the traffic.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 13, 2021, 03:07:33 PM
By the way, what is the reasoning to keep it closed to river traffic? Are they expecting an imminent failure? I get taking the weight off of the bridge, but????
From reports I have read, the justification for the halting of MS River traffic under the bridge is because this is enough of a structural fault that the inspectors and engineers can't yet certify the bridge is able to fully support its own weight.

Assuming a more detailed inspection is underway, pronouncing the bridge is able to hold itself up and support its own weight should come once it can be fully verified, and then MS River traffic will be cleared to resume

I agree with the assessment that failure is a possibility. That beam is not redundant. It looks to me to be broken in two not just cracked. From my perspective, the failure would be the deck, not the truss structure. Torsion during a deck failure COULD bring down the arch.  While I think the bridge could fail, it suddenly falling into the river on top of marine traffic doesn't seem a viable likelihood unless activity on the bridge for inspection / remediation is going on.  Until I saw a significant widening of the crack  (in mm not inches or feet) or the deck begins to spall or crack, I would try to keep the river open. That said I would hate to be the one to sign off on reopening the river absent a structural (bridge) engineer signing off without objections from his peers.  Hopefully there is computer data from the seismic retrofit, but it was done at a point in time where there still might not be any.  Then again, this bridge design is unique enough, it is going to be hard to model.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: codyg1985 on May 13, 2021, 03:55:26 PM
I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.

There aren't any permanent message boards around Jackson, TN where traffic could divert up towards the I-155 bridge?

Probably not yet.  They are in the process of six-land widening I-40 in the vicinity of Jackson.  I would assume that the finished product would include sone sort of permanent overhead VMSs.


I saw the plans for a portion of the widening project, and it does include a westbound VMS coming into Jackson TN from the east on I-40.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: codyg1985 on May 13, 2021, 04:03:25 PM
Since all traffic is using the I-55 bridge, shifting some I-55 Thru Traffic wouldn't hurt either. Would TDOT and KYTC recommend using US 51/Future I-69 to either the I-155 Bridge or continuing up I-69, depending on route? And southbound, MoDOT advise the I-155 to US 51 route as the "Alternate" route to Memphis due to delays at the now-single Memphis Mississippi River Bridge?

I would think it would be wise for ArDOT, TDOT, MDOT, and maybe KYTC or MoDOT to coordinate portable and permanent VMS messages to route traffic around the I-40 closure for traffic on I-22, I-40, and I-55. I am not sure if the Little Rock VMSs show anything regarding the I-40 bridge closure, but the Nashville VMSs don't show anything for westbound I-40 or southbound I-65 traffic to consider an alternate route if going west of Memphis.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Mr. Matté on May 13, 2021, 04:16:39 PM
doesn't help that all that traffic has to use that crappy cloverleaf on 55 too.

but THIS TIME, for the I-40 through traffic, it actually is a help that Crump BLVD is through as it is the probable path for the majority of I-40 the traffic.

But looking at Crump, it's a four-lane arterial road with businesses, traffic lights, and low railroad bridges. At most, maybe the state/city (don't know whose responsibility it is) could do like what Minnesota did on MN 280 after the 35W collapse and turn it into a temporary expressway by turning off the lights, removing the cross traffic, and maybe convert the bike lanes/bollards back to traffic lanes (hopefully the cyclist lobby would understand for this instance but it's doubtful).
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 13, 2021, 04:40:13 PM
While traffic has certainly been an issue on both sides, it seems that the west approach has been the worst for much longer times of the day. Any particular reason why? The Memphis side has little to no congestion outside peak hours meanwhile the other side sits standstill for miles.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: webny99 on May 13, 2021, 04:53:31 PM
While traffic has certainly been an issue on both sides, it seems that the west approach has been the worst for much longer times of the day. Any particular reason why? The Memphis side has little to no congestion outside peak hours meanwhile the other side sits standstill for miles.

That's a really interesting point you bring up. I can't say why for sure, but I suspect it's because the street grid provides redundancy on the Memphis side. If you get stuck on one approach, you can go around the block and try to get closer or go down to the next through street. But there is zero redundancy on the Arkansas side.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 13, 2021, 05:02:01 PM
But even then, we’re talking about 70,000 - 80,000 AADT merging from 3 lanes to 2 lanes. That type of situation happens all the time around the country from urban to rural areas, and yet traffic has never gotten that bad unless there’s an accident.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: codyg1985 on May 13, 2021, 07:58:52 PM
MDOT has their VMSs as far south as the north Jackson metro warning of the I-40 bridge closure in Memphis. Surprised the Tennessee DOT hasn’t done something similar in Nashville for I-40 and I-65 traffic.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: webny99 on May 13, 2021, 08:39:03 PM
But even then, we’re talking about 70,000 - 80,000 AADT merging from 3 lanes to 2 lanes. That type of situation happens all the time around the country from urban to rural areas, and yet traffic has never gotten that bad unless there’s an accident.

Is 70-80k the combined volume of both bridges? That seems lower than I would have expected.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 13, 2021, 08:40:48 PM
From an article.

The New Bridge carried around 41k vehicles per day, 30% commercial trucks. The Old Bridge carries around 55K  with 14K being trucks. The smaller bridge already carried more traffic in normal times.

It has also closed barge traffic.and there's this
Quote

“It’s fortunate this fracture was discovered during a routine inspection and not as part of an investigation following a catastrophic incident,” Arkansas Trucking Association President Shannon Newton said in a statement. “However, it doesn’t change the fact that this closure will have a significant ripple effect on the already strained supply chain. Between increased consumer demand, the driver shortage and now a major bottleneck in Memphis, shippers and consumers across the country should be prepared for longer shipping times until the I-40 Hernando de Soto Bridge is re-opened.”



https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/highway-official-memphis-bridge-fracture-could-have-caused-catastrophic-event/
Maybe closer to 100,000 AADT. But again, not sure why backups are that bad.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ozarkman417 on May 13, 2021, 09:16:40 PM
(https://preview.redd.it/st37vekshry61.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=5700b820d0124e6d6d6b57495298ea3ba027c351)

My favorite of the many posts about the bridge in the Memphis subreddit.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikeTheActuary on May 13, 2021, 09:18:09 PM
By the way, what is the reasoning to keep it closed to river traffic? Are they expecting an imminent failure? I get taking the weight off of the bridge, but????
From reports I have read, the justification for the halting of MS River traffic under the bridge is because this is enough of a structural fault that the inspectors and engineers can't yet certify the bridge is able to fully support its own weight.

Assuming a more detailed inspection is underway, pronouncing the bridge is able to hold itself up and support its own weight should come once it can be fully verified, and then MS River traffic will be cleared to resume

I agree with the assessment that failure is a possibility. That beam is not redundant. It looks to me to be broken in two not just cracked. From my perspective, the failure would be the deck, not the truss structure. Torsion during a deck failure COULD bring down the arch.  While I think the bridge could fail, it suddenly falling into the river on top of marine traffic doesn't seem a viable likelihood unless activity on the bridge for inspection / remediation is going on.  Until I saw a significant widening of the crack  (in mm not inches or feet) or the deck begins to spall or crack, I would try to keep the river open. That said I would hate to be the one to sign off on reopening the river absent a structural (bridge) engineer signing off without objections from his peers.  Hopefully there is computer data from the seismic retrofit, but it was done at a point in time where there still might not be any.  Then again, this bridge design is unique enough, it is going to be hard to model.

Last night, I browsed through the comments posted on a structural engineering subrredit about the bridge.  TDOT has released a graphic highlighting the relationship of the crack to the overall bridge structure, and the engineers on reddit indicated that it was only the road deck that was really at risk.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikeTheActuary on May 13, 2021, 09:28:55 PM
Maybe closer to 100,000 AADT. But again, not sure why backups are that bad.

On a normal day, with both bridges open, outside of rush hour, there can be congestion southbound/eastbound on the old bridge, thanks to the number of semis taking the tight/slow one-lane ramp to stay on I-55.

I don't know how much of the diverted traffic would think to use surface streets once across the bridge.  Presumably once past the interchange, traffic would flow more freely on I-55 even with the increased volume, so GPS-based navigation might not be smart enough to indicate to drivers, "hey, if the right lane is kept only for traffic staying on 55, and the left lane is kept only for Crump-bound traffic, and y'all didn't gum up traffic with last-minute lane-changes/merging, keeping left and using Crump will be a viable alternative".
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 13, 2021, 09:49:12 PM
Y'all are missing the one biggie about bypassing Memphis proper....getting shot. That is not a joke.

https://wreg-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/wreg.com/news/memphis-appeals-to-governor-for-extra-patrols-as-city-hits-36-highway-shootings/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16209569785519&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwreg.com%2Fnews%2Fmemphis-appeals-to-governor-for-extra-patrols-as-city-hits-36-highway-shootings%2F

Two Sundays ago massive pile up caused by two sports cars racing happened in my rear view mirror about half a football behind me between Lamar and Airways. A Mustang went to the shoulder to pass traffic, sweved back into the lanes and fishtailed into multiple spins  taking out about 8 others. I knew it was coming cause a single car zoomed by moments earlier scanning for cops stationed along the road due to the shootings. This shit is daily. The posted speed limit might as well be 70 mph. 55 mph is an absolute joke.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 13, 2021, 09:59:48 PM
Maybe closer to 100,000 AADT. But again, not sure why backups are that bad.

On a normal day, with both bridges open, outside of rush hour, there can be congestion southbound/eastbound on the old bridge, thanks to the number of semis taking the tight/slow one-lane ramp to stay on I-55.

I don't know how much of the diverted traffic would think to use surface streets once across the bridge.  Presumably once past the interchange, traffic would flow more freely on I-55 even with the increased volume, so GPS-based navigation might not be smart enough to indicate to drivers, "hey, if the right lane is kept only for traffic staying on 55, and the left lane is kept only for Crump-bound traffic, and y'all didn't gum up traffic with last-minute lane-changes/merging, keeping left and using Crump will be a viable alternative".

 no one from California knows to drive straight down Crump. Us smart ones already know how to avoid the cluster in West Memphis and sneak on I-55 at the levee taking advantage of someone's being nice and letting us merge in.

40 percent of all that traffic is frigging trucks, that's what makes it worse.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 13, 2021, 10:28:29 PM
The I-40 bridge, which opened in 1973, carried a 2020 average of 35,000 vehicles a day across the river, 29% of them trucks, according to the report. Degges said the average is closer to 50,000 vehicles a day, with about a quarter being trucks. Its traffic volume was expected to increase to 56,000 vehicles a day by 2040, the report said. (NBC News)
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 13, 2021, 11:21:46 PM
From an article.

The New Bridge carried around 41k vehicles per day, 30% commercial trucks. The Old Bridge carries around 55K  with 14K being trucks. The smaller bridge already carried more traffic in normal times.

It has also closed barge traffic.and there's this
Quote

“It’s fortunate this fracture was discovered during a routine inspection and not as part of an investigation following a catastrophic incident,” Arkansas Trucking Association President Shannon Newton said in a statement. “However, it doesn’t change the fact that this closure will have a significant ripple effect on the already strained supply chain. Between increased consumer demand, the driver shortage and now a major bottleneck in Memphis, shippers and consumers across the country should be prepared for longer shipping times until the I-40 Hernando de Soto Bridge is re-opened.”



https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/highway-official-memphis-bridge-fracture-could-have-caused-catastrophic-event/
Maybe closer to 100,000 AADT. But again, not sure why backups are that bad.

That traffic circle at Crump  and I-55 is indeed THAT bad. Through traffic for I-55SB  backs up at almost any hour.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20377.msg2613196#new
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 13, 2021, 11:35:04 PM
From an article.

The New Bridge carried around 41k vehicles per day, 30% commercial trucks. The Old Bridge carries around 55K  with 14K being trucks. The smaller bridge already carried more traffic in normal times.

It has also closed barge traffic.and there's this
Quote

“It’s fortunate this fracture was discovered during a routine inspection and not as part of an investigation following a catastrophic incident,” Arkansas Trucking Association President Shannon Newton said in a statement. “However, it doesn’t change the fact that this closure will have a significant ripple effect on the already strained supply chain. Between increased consumer demand, the driver shortage and now a major bottleneck in Memphis, shippers and consumers across the country should be prepared for longer shipping times until the I-40 Hernando de Soto Bridge is re-opened.”



https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/highway-official-memphis-bridge-fracture-could-have-caused-catastrophic-event/
Maybe closer to 100,000 AADT. But again, not sure why backups are that bad.

That traffic circle at Crump  and I-55 is indeed THAT bad. Through traffic for I-55 backs up at almost any hour.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20377.msg2613196#new
That's not what I'm talking about. The Crump interchange has had the usual rolling slowdowns approaching it plus a somewhat increase in traffic, but what I'm referring to is on the Arkansas side. Traffic is almost standstill for miles extending west of the I-55 / I-40 west split off - all for 3 lanes to go down to 2. You would think the backup wouldn't be that terrible, it's not like 4 or 5 lanes is coming into 2. That's luckily not as much the case on the Tennessee side.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 14, 2021, 12:06:35 AM
The repair of a vital Memphis bridge could take 2 months, chief engineer says. The impacts are already being felt (https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/13/us/memphis-crack-hernando-de-soto-bridge-thursday/index.html)
Quote
It could take up to two months to temporarily repair a crack that forced the closure of a vital highway bridge in Memphis, Tennessee, the state's chief engineer told CNN, while dozens of ships with hundreds of barges wait to safely travel the busy waterway below.

The Hernando de Soto Bridge on Interstate 40 -- a major artery for traffic crossing the Mississippi River between Memphis and eastern Arkansas -- was shut down Tuesday for emergency repairs after transportation officials discovered the crack during a routine inspection.

The US Coast Guard put a waterway restriction in place on the river below, and there were at least 44 vessels, with more than 700 barges, waiting to travel the river in either direction Thursday morning, according to Lt. Mark Pipkin of Coast Guard Sector Lower Mississippi River.

"It will be a number of weeks at least until we can have a repair in place, probably six to eight weeks minimum," Paul Degges, Tennessee Department of Transportation chief engineer, told CNN. "Hopefully, we can pull a rabbit out of a hat sooner, but public safety is most important. There are lots of moving parts to look at."
I-40 is a major transcontinental transportation route, Degges said, and CNN affiliate WMC called the bridge a "vital piece of America's infrastructure for moving traffic and freight around the country."

According to the TDOT, the average daily traffic for the bridge is about 45,000 vehicles, with about 25% of that being truck traffic.

Drivers are being rerouted to Interstate 55, about 3 miles south, where another bridge spans the Mississippi River. Late Thursday afternoon, state traffic cameras showed heavy traffic headed eastbound into Memphis from Arkansas, and much of the traffic appeared to be tractor trailers.

From the vantage point of a CNN crew on the ground, a wall of traffic could be seen along I-55, barely moving at a snail's pace.

It's unclear when the crack appeared
Officials are hopeful they'll develop a strategy in the next few days to create a timeline for the repair, Degges said. There will likely be an interim temporary repair to get vehicle traffic back while engineers and contractors work to implement a long-term solution, he said.
Officials hope to have an answer on when it will be safe to open the river to barge traffic "in the next day or so."

"We are looking at (two or three) different scenarios of what different types of repairs could be done to get traffic back up and then from there to move on to a permanent repair," Degges said.

Tennessee shares responsibility for the bridge with the Arkansas Department of Transportation, which discovered the crack during a routine inspection and immediately shut down the bridge, the release said.

Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee said the discovery of the crack and the subsequent closure showed the "process worked."

"We have regular inspection process between Arkansas and Tennessee for that particular bridge and it was that inspection process that revealed that crack before it became an incident," Lee said Thursday.

Degges described the crack as "very unusual." He believes the crack was most likely caused by fatigue or a welding error when the bridge, designed in the 1960s, was originally constructed, but the state will conduct forensic analysis to discern the exact cause.
The bridge was opened in August 1973 with a price tag at that time of $57 million, WMC reported.

It's unclear how long the crack has been there, but Degges believes it has probably been there for a couple weeks. He noted it was not present during a bridge inspection in September 2019.

The Tennessee Department of Transportation has hired an engineering firm and a full mathematical analysis is under way to look at data and models and discuss potential repair solutions.

Lee said the Army Corps of Engineers and the Coast Guard are involved. The state will be partially responsible for the bridge repair, he said, adding, "there is still a lot of information that we need to learn."

Prices of corn and soybeans could rise
Soy Transportation Coalition Executive Director Mike Steenhoek told CNN the marine traffic shutdown is an "unwelcome" situation and, in the short term, prices of corn and soybeans could increase, especially south of Memphis.

If traffic along the river remains suspended, Steenhoek expects the industry to begin shifting to rail and to a lesser extent, trucks, to move product.

Some mitigation appears to be underway, according to Steenhoek.

"I do know that a number of barge loading terminals north of Memphis are decreasing their bids or not accepting grain deliveries altogether until they see some degree of clarity on river transportation," he told CNN.

As for any grain stuck on barges, Steenhoek says there's significant difficulty and expense in unloading and moving it to other types of transportation. "I expect the barges in the queue will wait -- hoping traffic will resume in the near future," he said.

The system has already been stressed by shifting buying and consumption habits, and a shutdown or delay can easily compound the challenges, he said.

Closure coincides with infrastructure proposal
The bridge's closure comes as President Joe Biden is calling for a $115 billion increase in spending to modernize bridges, highways, roads and main streets in need of repair.

The infrastructure plan, which must be approved by Congress, aims to fix the 10 most economically significant bridges in the country, as well as proposing repairs to 10,000 smaller bridges.

It's possible the Hernando de Soto Bridge would be eligible for funding, but the White House's plan lacks details on how the money would be disbursed. The administration has not identified which 10 bridges it deems most economically significant.

The President's plan would create a competitive grant program to fund large bridges that move high volumes of people and freight and are in need of reconstruction or replacement, based on their condition or inability to manage current traffic volumes, according to an administration official.

Once the American Jobs Plan is passed into law, the US Department of Transportation would launch a call for states to submit applications explaining why their bridge is among the most significant because of its size, condition, traffic volume, and importance to the regional or national economy, the official said.

"A bridge like this could likely qualify, but it's hard to say what the metrics will be," said Paul Lewis, vice president of policy and finance at the Eno Center for Transportation, a think tank based in Washington, DC.

At 48 years old, the Hernando de Soto Bridge is newer than the 72-year-old Memphis-Arkansas Bridge on I-55, where traffic is being diverted.

"This kind of fracture is rare," Lewis said, "but it goes to show how we have a lot of bridges that are old and it's going to take a lot of funding and resources to bring them up to a state of good repair."

In an interview with CNN's Jim Sciutto on Thursday, US Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg pointed to the bridge closure -- and the recent ransomware attack that forced the six-day shutdown of the Colonial Pipeline -- as reasons why the plan is so important.
"We've got a major bridge out of commission. We've been reminded in a very blunt way with the pipeline issues just how important infrastructure is," he said. "What we definitely can't afford is to do nothing."
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 14, 2021, 12:58:03 AM
N.Y. Times: 'Get People Off': Shutdown Ordered for Cracked Bridge in Memphis - The Interstate 40 bridge over the Mississippi River could be closed for weeks, if not longer, because of damage that could have led to "a catastrophic event." (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/us/mississippi-bridge-crack-memphis.html)

Quote
It was meant to be a routine inspection. But when an engineer climbed out onto the Interstate 40 bridge over the Mississippi River this week, what he saw led to an urgent call to 911: “We need to get people off the bridge immediately!”

Quote
He had spotted a crack. He could not miss it, really. A critical beam was fractured to the point of being nearly severed.

Quote
The Hernando de Soto Bridge, which reaches from downtown Memphis into Arkansas, is inspected every two years, so the crack could have been there for weeks, months or well over a year. But in that moment, the inspector stressed to the 911 dispatcher on Tuesday, the bridge needed to be shut down right away to avert a disaster.

Quote
Since Tuesday, vehicles have been blocked from crossing over the bridge and vessels from passing beneath it. Officials are unsure just how long the shutdown will last, stirring fears of delays and disruption that could reach far beyond Memphis.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 14, 2021, 07:17:17 AM
There's an interesting post on Reddit, with a photo allegedly showing crack full sized in summer 2019, before previous inspection. If that is true, it may be a truly interesting development
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 14, 2021, 08:18:57 AM
From an article.

The New Bridge carried around 41k vehicles per day, 30% commercial trucks. The Old Bridge carries around 55K  with 14K being trucks. The smaller bridge already carried more traffic in normal times.

It has also closed barge traffic.and there's this
Quote

“It’s fortunate this fracture was discovered during a routine inspection and not as part of an investigation following a catastrophic incident,” Arkansas Trucking Association President Shannon Newton said in a statement. “However, it doesn’t change the fact that this closure will have a significant ripple effect on the already strained supply chain. Between increased consumer demand, the driver shortage and now a major bottleneck in Memphis, shippers and consumers across the country should be prepared for longer shipping times until the I-40 Hernando de Soto Bridge is re-opened.”



https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/highway-official-memphis-bridge-fracture-could-have-caused-catastrophic-event/
Maybe closer to 100,000 AADT. But again, not sure why backups are that bad.

That traffic circle at Crump  and I-55 is indeed THAT bad. Through traffic for I-55 backs up at almost any hour.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20377.msg2613196#new
That's not what I'm talking about. The Crump interchange has had the usual rolling slowdowns approaching it plus a somewhat increase in traffic, but what I'm referring to is on the Arkansas side. Traffic is almost standstill for miles extending west of the I-55 / I-40 west split off - all for 3 lanes to go down to 2. You would think the backup wouldn't be that terrible, it's not like 4 or 5 lanes is coming into 2. That's luckily not as much the case on the Tennessee side.

Yes, the traffic is backed up from the I-55 cloverleaf exit all the way to nearly I-40. In effect the you go from 4 lanes (2 on I-40 and 2 on I-55) to three lanes on I-55, to 2 lanes for the bridge, then one lane for the southbound I-55 exit (Turn off to stay on.) While all of it contributes, the 270 degree exit was a problem that backed traffic up at all hours before the increase in volume, this makes it insurmountable. My thought originally was virtually all the through I-40 traffic would stay on Crump Blvd, it appears that much of it is taking I-55 to I-240. Google maps has the through traffic following Crump, but it appears a lot is choosing the all freeway route.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Chris on May 14, 2021, 09:00:55 AM
Could this crack / severed beam be the result of the February winter storm?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/February_14%E2%80%9316%2C_2021_US_minimum_temperatures.jpg/800px-February_14%E2%80%9316%2C_2021_US_minimum_temperatures.jpg)
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: froggie on May 14, 2021, 11:58:13 AM
If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.

Given the ongoing delays in Memphis, "add almost an hour" becomes a wash.

"Significant mileage" is actually about 33 miles (out of ~270 total), with 20 miles of that 33 a high-quality 2-lane on the Missouri side.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 14, 2021, 12:11:26 PM
If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.

Given the ongoing delays in Memphis, "add almost an hour" becomes a wash.

"Significant mileage" is actually about 33 miles (out of ~270 total), with 20 miles of that 33 a high-quality 2-lane on the Missouri side.
Depends on the time of day in direction. Eastbound could be more inclined due to the miles of stopped trucks on the Arkansas side, but westbound seems to get through with little congestion or moderate, but still moving at peak hours. It depends on preferences in the end, direction of travel, and time of day.

If for those 2 lane roads, if one followed I-40 to I-55, there would be none of those if it does become an issue. It appears to be the faster route if bound to I-155 anyways.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 14, 2021, 12:17:57 PM
Latest update from ARDOT
Quote
During the course of our investigation we have found earlier evidence of damage on the #40MSRiverBridge captured by an inspector's drone video. We are now investigating to see if the damage was noted in previous reports and what actions were taken
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 14, 2021, 12:20:19 PM
The Mississippi River has re-opened to maritime traffic under the bridge.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 14, 2021, 12:49:29 PM
Latest update from ARDOT
Quote
During the course of our investigation we have found earlier evidence of damage on the #40MSRiverBridge captured by an inspector's drone video. We are now investigating to see if the damage was noted in previous reports and what actions were taken
Looks like they took this seriously:
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 14, 2021, 01:46:45 PM
Latest update from ARDOT
Quote
During the course of our investigation we have found earlier evidence of damage on the #40MSRiverBridge captured by an inspector's drone video. We are now investigating to see if the damage was noted in previous reports and what actions were taken
Looks like they took this seriously:

This shot gives me a different view of this issue. This (broken) beam has minimal load bearing requirement. The deck supports are tied directly to the vertical rods. It would appear that this element has two purposes both redundant. They would give short term support if a vertical rod failed or for  replacement of a rod and it helps keep horizontal motion in check (especially non-linear thrust).  The deck beams are primary to maintaining linear integrity to the deck.

 It would not surprise me if these were added solely to rest the deck support assemblies on during bridge assembly.  I am not sure it does anything meaningful!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 14, 2021, 02:29:44 PM
Latest update from ARDOT
Quote
During the course of our investigation we have found earlier evidence of damage on the #40MSRiverBridge captured by an inspector's drone video. We are now investigating to see if the damage was noted in previous reports and what actions were taken
Looks like they took this seriously:

This shot gives me a different view of this issue. This (broken) beam has minimal load bearing requirement. The deck supports are tied directly to the vertical rods. It would appear that this element has two purposes both redundant. They would give short term support if a vertical rod failed or for  replacement of a rod and it helps keep horizontal motion in check (especially non-linear thrust).  The deck beams are primary to maintaining linear integrity to the deck.

 It would not surprise me if these were added solely to rest the deck support assemblies on during bridge assembly.  I am not sure it does anything meaningful!
Problem is, if that is all true - there is no significant load, so why the failure? It takes some effort to break a steel beam like that...
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 14, 2021, 04:32:10 PM
Barge traffic has resumed...
https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/barge-traffic-resumes-under-i-40-bridge-us-coast-guard-says/FRSZV64GGZDU3AVJMA6Y3BZJFA/
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 06:33:00 PM
Any timeline for when the bridge can reopen for vehicular traffic?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 14, 2021, 06:37:30 PM
Any timeline for when the bridge can reopen for vehicular traffic?
I saw 2 months mentioned somewhere
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 06:39:12 PM
Any timeline for when the bridge can reopen for vehicular traffic?
I saw 2 months mentioned somewhere
Oh dear poor I-55.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 14, 2021, 07:34:48 PM
Any timeline for when the bridge can reopen for vehicular traffic?
I saw 2 months mentioned somewhere

I heard 2-6 months.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Henry on May 14, 2021, 08:04:12 PM
I'm amazed that the crack hasn't caused the bridge to fall into the river...yet. But there's absolutely no excuse for missing that flaw for two years.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 09:05:15 PM
Any timeline for when the bridge can reopen for vehicular traffic?
I saw 2 months mentioned somewhere

I heard 2-6 months.
Oh no
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 14, 2021, 09:38:50 PM
I suppose the only benefit of the bridge collapsing is that the federal government will be forced to pony up money and get a much needed replacement in. It seems its the only way major infrastructure projects like this can get funded. Look at I-10 in Pensacola and I-10 in New Orleans that had major bridge replacements due to hurricane damage that was also able to sneak in making the new bridges 6 lanes vs. the old 4 lane ones. Then look at I-10 in Mobile which hasn't got any major damage and is going through a hurdle to find funding. One hurricane destroys it, they get a whole new Bayway funded by the federal government and no tolls.

If only the federal government would simply fund these projects without a disaster needing to happen...  :hmmm:
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kenarmy on May 14, 2021, 10:16:52 PM
WTF I just saw a VMS in Jackson MS informing drivers of the bridge being closed.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 10:17:35 PM
WTF I just saw a VMS in Jackson MS informing drivers of the bridge being closed.
Would traffic in Jackson MS ever even have a reason to use that bridge?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US 89 on May 14, 2021, 10:40:39 PM
WTF I just saw a VMS in Jackson MS informing drivers of the bridge being closed.
Would traffic in Jackson MS ever even have a reason to use that bridge?

I-55 goes straight to Memphis from Jackson. It’s plenty direct to use I-240 to I-40 to cross the Mississippi there, and as a driver it could well be easier to go that way than to negotiate the cloverleaf at Crump. Plus the I-40 bridge has more lanes and is probably less congested normally than the one on I-55.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ilpt4u on May 14, 2021, 11:01:25 PM
WTF I just saw a VMS in Jackson MS informing drivers of the bridge being closed.
Would traffic in Jackson MS ever even have a reason to use that bridge?
Maybe, but even if I-55 Thru Traffic is planning to stick to I-55, the fact that the I-55 bridge is the only functional Memphis bridge is worth informing drivers of - to let them know long delays to cross the Mississippi at Memphis are to be expected

I would assume I-55N->I-40W traffic might be interested in the US 49/Helena bridge

From Jackson, a NB I-55 motorist has 3 other MS River bridge crossings available before Memphis: I-20 bridge, US 82/278 bridge, US 49 bridge.

Thru I-55 traffic would probably be more interested, as an Alternate, in following I-69/Future I-69/US 51 thru Memphis and then north up to I-155 and cross the MS River there to get back to I-55, should they want to avoid crossing on the now high demand I-55 bridge in Memphis
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 14, 2021, 11:25:28 PM
I'm amazed that the crack hasn't caused the bridge to fall into the river...yet. But there's absolutely no excuse for missing that flaw for two years.

Looking closely at the bridge, it looks like this beam is simply a redundant system. It would appear to help keep the bridge from moving horizontally outside the plane for the deck and truss.

Someone is gonna get it.....

Here is my guess. This crack was minimal around a decade ago, perhaps as long ago as the seismic retrofit. They marked it with tape. If the tape broke, it was expanding. If it didn't expand, it was no big deal. The tape was long forgotten.  It doesn't matter weather it is a car, an electronic circuit, or a bridge, the inspection is only as thorough as the inspection criteria and usually the inspection worksheet. The inspection focused on the truss (above), the support rods, and maybe the deck supports. A bridge inspection tends not to look at every inch or even every foot of a bridge. It only looks at critical elements, critical junctions, and items of particular note. Likely this beam was not on the checklist.

The inspection in 2019 was done by rappelling. This time, it happened to be spotted by a drone. This has probably been  as broken as it is now for close to a decade. I don't think this is a critical element, but if a critical element fails in the right place, with this break, it has no redundancy. 


Just my perception. Regardless, it needs to be fixed now not later.

Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 11:34:30 PM
Thru I-55 traffic would probably be more interested, as an Alternate, in following I-69/Future I-69/US 51 thru Memphis and then north up to I-155 and cross the MS River there to get back to I-55, should they want to avoid crossing on the now high demand I-55 bridge in Memphis

I-155 is the obvious alternate for I-55 traffic, but it also makes sense for I-40 traffic. For Little Rock>Nashville, I-55 to I-155 to US 412 would seem to be a much better option than anything south of I-40 both mileage and time-wise, with the bonus of avoiding Memphis altogether.

There's probably not a ton of traffic making the I-55 NB to I-40 WB movement since most of that traffic is probably already using the Greenville Bridge... so I'd say in terms of alternates, it must be close to 80% to 20% in favor of I-155 over US 49.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 15, 2021, 07:42:36 AM
If only the federal government would simply fund these projects without a disaster needing to happen...  :hmmm:

If only the U.S. House of Representatives and U.S. Senate would agree to a large (maybe 25¢ or more) increase in the per-gallon federal motor fuel tax rate to fund same.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 15, 2021, 07:43:50 AM
If only the federal government would simply fund these projects without a disaster needing to happen...  :hmmm:

If only the U.S. House of Representatives and U.S. Senate would agree to a large (maybe 25¢ or more) increase in the per-gallon federal motor fuel tax rate to fund same.

If only the feds would cut out pork spending and sending out money all over the world.  Please no new taxes.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 15, 2021, 09:05:28 AM
WTF I just saw a VMS in Jackson MS informing drivers of the bridge being closed.
Would traffic in Jackson MS ever even have a reason to use that bridge?

I-55 goes straight to Memphis from Jackson. It’s plenty direct to use I-240 to I-40 to cross the Mississippi there, and as a driver it could well be easier to go that way than to negotiate the cloverleaf at Crump. Plus the I-40 bridge has more lanes and is probably less congested normally than the one on I-55.

Ding ding ding
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on May 15, 2021, 09:08:21 AM
If only the federal government would simply fund these projects without a disaster needing to happen...  :hmmm:

If only the U.S. House of Representatives and U.S. Senate would agree to a large (maybe 25¢ or more) increase in the per-gallon federal motor fuel tax rate to fund same.

And with the push to hybrid and electric how does that help?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 15, 2021, 12:36:14 PM
If only the federal government would simply fund these projects without a disaster needing to happen...  :hmmm:

If only the U.S. House of Representatives and U.S. Senate would agree to a large (maybe 25¢ or more) increase in the per-gallon federal motor fuel tax rate to fund same.

If only the feds would cut out pork spending and sending out money all over the world.  Please no new taxes.
And this is type of reason we will never see any large scale infrastructure projects built in this country again.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 15, 2021, 12:56:18 PM
Perhaps it is time for a supplemental ferry service to start up river and down river.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 15, 2021, 01:06:19 PM
Perhaps it is time for a supplemental ferry service to start up river and down river.
Ooh… here’s an idea. Build another crossing.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 15, 2021, 02:07:26 PM
I am afraid the infrastructure that President Biden and Secretary Buttigieg are planning to foist upon us will have minimal impact on our highways and cargo railroads.  There might be repairs and improvements, but as far as added capacity, I just do not see any. They have a vapid disdain for highway transit. They seemingly want to force us to go green beyond technology and to make a clean break.

This MIGHT be of use if the rest of the world were onboard, but China (the largest polluter), India, and the third world will be decades behind us if ever.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 15, 2021, 02:53:59 PM
I am afraid the infrastructure that President Biden and Secretary Buttigieg are planning to foist upon us will have minimal impact on our highways and cargo railroads.  There might be repairs and improvements, but as far as added capacity, I just do not see any. They have a vapid disdain for highway transit. They seemingly want to force us to go green beyond technology and to make a clean break.

This MIGHT be of use if the rest of the world were onboard, but China (the largest polluter), India, and the third world will be decades behind us if ever.
Which is why the whole concept of this being an "infrastructure" bill is misleading and why it cannot pass bipartisanly. Perhaps if the current administration would remove political agendas from the proposal and limited it solely to true infrastructure - roads, bridges, etc. - it would easily pass on a bipartisan level with little opposition.

The current plan calls to spend the vast majority toward non-infrastructure projects and doesn't majorly address problems on the nation's highway system. How about funding for new interstate highway corridors that are decades old proposed and can't get built due to limited funding? Or major widening projects across long-distance major freight corridors that often have rolling backups? Major bridge replacements across major rivers, other stuff like the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge. There's a lot of potential to significant expand the government role in actually finally getting needed projects done, but it will never happen. Either the proposals provide too little funding or in this case focus on almost "pet projects" that don't have the benefits of true infrastructure improvements.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Mr. Matté on May 15, 2021, 05:09:57 PM
Perhaps it is time for a supplemental ferry service to start up river and down river.
Ooh… here’s an idea. Build another crossing.

(https://i.imgur.com/nQVKJ.gif)
"The finger thing means the taxes"
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 15, 2021, 05:31:59 PM
Perhaps it is time for a supplemental ferry service to start up river and down river.
Ooh… here’s an idea. Build another crossing.

(https://i.imgur.com/nQVKJ.gif)
"The finger thing means the taxes"
It would probably take longer to build a new crossing.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kenarmy on May 15, 2021, 07:02:14 PM
I still don’t understand why it should be displayed that far south though. The sign was past US 49 and I-20, and that wouldn’t even be worth the detour anyway. Oh, and it says “use an alternate route” but drivers ARE on the alternate route.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US 89 on May 15, 2021, 07:56:44 PM
I still don’t understand why it should be displayed that far south though. The sign was past US 49 and I-20, and that wouldn’t even be worth the detour anyway. Oh, and it says “use an alternate route” but drivers ARE on the alternate route.

Just to prepare people for the inevitable shitshow that will occur in Memphis.

This type of thing doesn't bother me at all - VMSs in Salt Lake City routinely display weather-related closures of I-80 in Wyoming hundreds of miles away.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: webny99 on May 15, 2021, 09:13:14 PM
I still don’t understand why it should be displayed that far south though. The sign was past US 49 and I-20, and that wouldn’t even be worth the detour anyway. Oh, and it says “use an alternate route” but drivers ARE on the alternate route.

Just to prepare people for the inevitable shitshow that will occur in Memphis.

Also, in this case "seek alternate routes" has a much more nuanced meaning than simply "I-40 closed, use I-55". It's a given that I-55 will be congested, so traffic might want to seek alternate routes to that as well (I-155 is the obvious one, but Cairo and Paducah could also be options for anyone bound for I-57).
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: froggie on May 15, 2021, 11:12:18 PM
This MIGHT be of use if the rest of the world were onboard, but China (the largest polluter), India, and the third world will be decades behind us if ever.

It's worth noting that China is the largest polluter in no small part due to being the most populous country in the world and they've been developing their economy like crazy.

Also worth noting that China has built and continues to expand a quite extensive high speed rail network that completely puts the U.S. to shame.  Granted, being the most populous country means they have a population density 4 times that of the U.S. which is better able to support such a rail system.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on May 16, 2021, 05:39:53 PM
I still don’t understand why it should be displayed that far south though. The sign was past US 49 and I-20, and that wouldn’t even be worth the detour anyway. Oh, and it says “use an alternate route” but drivers ARE on the alternate route.

Just to prepare people for the inevitable shitshow that will occur in Memphis.

This type of thing doesn't bother me at all - VMSs in Salt Lake City routinely display weather-related closures of I-80 in Wyoming hundreds of miles away.

If was haulin a load east and the pass between Laramie and Cheyenne was having issues, I would love a VMS in SLC to tell me.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 16, 2021, 06:29:28 PM
Is it just me or does it sound like TDOT has stricter inspection standards than ARDOT?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 16, 2021, 06:30:30 PM
This MIGHT be of use if the rest of the world were onboard, but China (the largest polluter), India, and the third world will be decades behind us if ever.

It's worth noting that China is the largest polluter in no small part due to being the most populous country in the world and they've been developing their economy like crazy.

Also worth noting that China has built and continues to expand a quite extensive high speed rail network that completely puts the U.S. to shame.  Granted, being the most populous country means they have a population density 4 times that of the U.S. which is better able to support such a rail system.

No, it is the largest polluter because it has taken the lead position in smokestack industries. While more developed countries in the world have to try to compete using expensive pollution remediation, the Chinese and Indian industries pollute at will. The exception is when the people who are receiving the exports demand remediation, and even then, they are far less than those required in the US and western Europe. China is the largest consumer of coal both by volume and per capita.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 16, 2021, 06:31:35 PM
Is it just me or does it sound like TDOT has stricter inspection standards than ARDOT?

I thought ARDOT was the lead agency in having the current inspection done.....
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 16, 2021, 06:43:43 PM
Is it just me or does it sound like TDOT has stricter inspection standards than ARDOT?

I thought ARDOT was the lead agency in having the current inspection done.....

Theoretically, yes...but it's sounding (to me at least) like (a) TNDOT has higher standards or  ARDOT fumbled the ball somewhere.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Brandon on May 16, 2021, 07:11:38 PM
If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.

What 2-lane roads?  That's US-412 (divided highway) to I-155 (freeway) to I-55 (freeway).
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 07:13:18 PM
If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.

What 2-lane roads?  That's US-412 (divided highway) to I-155 (freeway) to I-55 (freeway).
Part of US 412 in Missouri is two lanes.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 16, 2021, 07:30:27 PM
Paragould to Kennett is only 2 lanes.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: webny99 on May 16, 2021, 07:44:59 PM
I believe Brandon is referring only to the eastern half of the routing (I-155 east to Dyersburg and US 412 from there to I-40 at Jackson). That's how I read it at first as well.

It would work for I-55 SB traffic, but a bit much for I-40 EB IMO because of the two-lane section, not to mention the fact that I-40 traffic could just follow I-55 to I-155.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 16, 2021, 07:52:47 PM
https://www.camdenarknews.com/news/2021/may/15/19-inspection-spied-damage-i-40-bridge

An agency statement said it is investigating to see if a September 2019 inspection noted that damage and what, if any, actions were taken.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 16, 2021, 10:03:41 PM
Heads are probably going to roll on this one. :spin:
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 16, 2021, 10:07:18 PM
Heads are probably going to roll on this one. :spin:

Just the scapegoats  :pan: :evilgrin:
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Brandon on May 16, 2021, 11:03:28 PM
Paragould to Kennett is only 2 lanes.

Why would you do that when you can just go back to I-40 on I-55, if you're going back to I-40?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 16, 2021, 11:21:46 PM
Heads are probably going to roll on this one. :spin:

Just the scapegoats  :pan: :evilgrin:

The irony is it isn't the state's DOT that is to blame. It is the low bidder engineering firm (contractor) who did the inspection.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 16, 2021, 11:30:51 PM
Heads are probably going to roll on this one. :spin:

Just the scapegoats  :pan: :evilgrin:

The irony is it isn't the state's DOT that is to blame. It is the low bidder engineering firm (contractor) who did the inspection.

Who has deeper pockets?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Big John on May 16, 2021, 11:36:39 PM
Heads are probably going to roll on this one. :spin:

Just the scapegoats  :pan: :evilgrin:

The irony is it isn't the state's DOT that is to blame. It is the low bidder engineering firm (contractor) who did the inspection.
Engineering firms are not supposed to selected by low bid, but rather by who is the most qualified.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 17, 2021, 12:39:04 AM
Paragould to Kennett is only 2 lanes.

Why would you do that when you can just go back to I-40 on I-55, if you're going back to I-40?
Oh, I definitely agree, I was pointing out the two lane section when someone mentioned taking US-67 to US-412.

I-40 to I-55 would be the best route for through traffic though, not the former.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 17, 2021, 01:02:09 AM
Heads are probably going to roll on this one. :spin:

Just the scapegoats  :pan: :evilgrin:

The irony is it isn't the state's DOT that is to blame. It is the low bidder engineering firm (contractor) who did the inspection.
Contractor was probably tasked primarily with inspection of most probable failure points - joints, connections, welds. Failure of a uniform steel bar somewhere in the middle, without a catastrophic consequences, probably means structural loads were not too high, so failure was not anticipated, hence no focused inspection.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 17, 2021, 08:04:47 AM
Heads are probably going to roll on this one. :spin:

Just the scapegoats  :pan: :evilgrin:

The irony is it isn't the state's DOT that is to blame. It is the low bidder engineering firm (contractor) who did the inspection.
Engineering firms are not supposed to selected by low bid, but rather by who is the most qualified.

Sort of. The low bidder from among those who meet the qualification criteria. It is still the low bidder. The bids generally allow them minimal time to inspect EXACTLY what is identified on the spec and little if anything more.

It is kind of like a doctor I saw. If I added an additional concern, I would have to schedule another visit at a later time. Likewise if the contractor spied a problem, he would need to get the DOT to authorize additional expenditure to investigate it. IF!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: silverback1065 on May 17, 2021, 09:30:40 AM
Heads are probably going to roll on this one. :spin:

Just the scapegoats  :pan: :evilgrin:

The irony is it isn't the state's DOT that is to blame. It is the low bidder engineering firm (contractor) who did the inspection.
Engineering firms are not supposed to selected by low bid, but rather by who is the most qualified.

kinda both honestly. whoever is most qualified and has the most reasonable price.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: roadman65 on May 17, 2021, 09:51:42 AM
Saw on FB, courtesy Freeway Jim, that on I-30 East in Texarkana at Four States Fair Blvd. the VMS informs motorists the bridge is closed.  It advises drivers to seek alternatives to I-40 in Memphis.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: froggie on May 17, 2021, 11:09:35 AM
Paragould to Kennett is only 2 lanes.

Paragould to the state line has been 5-laned.  There's a couple of 2-lane pockets west of Paragould (neither lasts for very long)...the main stretch of 2 lane is now from the state line to Kennett.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 17, 2021, 02:11:59 PM
1:02 pm  17 May

ARDOT has just announced  a scapegoat  an employee has been terminated in connection with the bridge problem.  It appears the problem dates back to around August 2019, but was not reported.

The Federal Highway Administration will be working with ARDOT to correct the flaws in their inspection process. All bridges that were inspected by the terinated employee will be reinspected.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 17, 2021, 07:36:16 PM
https://www.tn.gov/tdot/news/2021/5/17/tdot-awards-contract-on-the-i-40-hernando-desoto-bridge-repair.html

Kiewit Infrastructure Group selected to fix I-40 bridge.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: rcm195 on May 17, 2021, 09:44:04 PM
Sounds to me like it’s going to be shut down for a while.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on May 17, 2021, 10:07:14 PM
Here is the drone footage of the ArDOT inspection from 2019. How could you miss this?


Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 17, 2021, 10:12:55 PM
Here is the drone footage of the ArDOT inspection from 2019. How could you miss this?




Someone wasn't paying attention.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Lyon Wonder on May 18, 2021, 02:17:08 AM
I wonder even after the I-40 bridge is repaired and open to traffic they'll impose capacity restrictions like fewer available lanes for traffic or vehicle weight limits?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 18, 2021, 07:38:35 AM
I see negligence in that video.  That crack is way visible to the eye of a reasonable person.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 18, 2021, 08:08:04 AM
I see negligence in that video.  That crack is way visible to the eye of a reasonable person.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
2. Crack is pretty straight, easy to confuse with the structural thing at a glance. There is a similar line on the other side at the edge of a plate - which is just the edge of a plate

I really wonder if something from 2017 inspection would surface...
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: roadman65 on May 18, 2021, 09:18:57 AM
https://www.google.com/search?q=little+rock+ar+to+nashville+tn&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

I see Google reroutes EB travelers through city streets to connect back to I-40 once in Memphis.  I would think to stay on I-55 to I-240 East would be better.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 18, 2021, 10:57:09 AM
How would this be repaired?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on May 18, 2021, 11:02:06 AM
^

https://www.tn.gov/tdot/news/2021/5/17/tdot-awards-contract-on-the-i-40-hernando-desoto-bridge-repair.html

Kiewit Infrastructure Group selected to fix I-40 bridge.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: barcncpt44 on May 18, 2021, 11:02:24 AM
Interesting opinion article on CNN from an engineer who worked on this bridge developing a system to monitor the seismic performance.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/17/opinions/memphis-i40-bridge-crack-future-problems-abdelnaby/index.html
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 18, 2021, 11:18:49 AM
Crump Blvd has several advantages. First you bypass the heinous exit onto I-55 SB. Then it is a good bit more direct (closer) It is 4 lanes. If the traffic signals are set up correctly, it should take less than ten minutes in heavy traffic to be on I-69. It is about two and a half miles to I-69 (former I-240). Crump Blvd is US-79, US-64, and TN-1.

Following US-79 all the way to Sam Cooper Blvd as opposed to taking I-69 up to I-40 might even be quicker. ( Sam Cooper Blvd is a freeway stub that was planned to be I-40 but was never completed. It connects to I-40 on the east side of Memphis)


https://www.google.com/search?q=little+rock+ar+to+nashville+tn&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

I see Google reroutes EB travelers through city streets to connect back to I-40 once in Memphis.  I would think to stay on I-55 to I-240 East would be better.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: EngineerTM on May 18, 2021, 12:08:19 PM
I see negligence in that video.  That crack is way visible to the eye of a reasonable person.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
2. Crack is pretty straight, easy to confuse with the structural thing at a glance. There is a similar line on the other side at the edge of a plate - which is just the edge of a plate

I really wonder if something from 2017 inspection would surface...

I disagree with you on both your points.  I'm a licensed professional engineer and certified bridge inspection team leader with years of bridge inspection experience.  There is no way that a qualified and competent bridge inspector should have failed to recognize that cracking in the 2019 drone video as a critical find needing immediate attention.  From what I've been able to gather I offer the following observations:

1. In one of ARDOT's new briefings, they stated that a consulting firm (whom I'm not going to name right now) was responsible for taking that video and that the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

2. The drone video did linger long enough on that fracture critical tension tie girder for a long enough period that it should easily have been recognized as being a serious, potentially catastrophic condition.

3. Rarely do inspection firms simply record drone footage and then send them to a DOT with nothing more than a "here you go" attitude.  Someone such as the project manager or responsible bridge inspection team leader would (or should) have reviewed all the collected drone video data.  If the firm collecting the drone data missed that crack or failed to follow up with appropriate additional inspections or notification, then I seriously question their qualifications and quality assurance/quality control protocols.  If it was negligence, laziness, an attitude of "it's not in my project scope", or something similar, then I fully support having that bridge inspector (or others) notified to authorities for a criminal investigation.  I also think that if any of those individuals are licensed professional engineers, then they should also be referred to their state licensing board for further investigation.

4. That crack is not "pretty straight" or "easily to confuse" to a professionally trained and properly qualified bridge inspector.

From what was also reported at that news conference, FHWA is going to be doing a comprehensive review of the entire ARDOT bridge inspection program - and rightfully so.  I also expect that all the FHWA representatives with every state DOT are going to be sharing these findings and carrying out some measure of additional review.

The most important role of any licensed professional engineer is placing public safety and trust above all else.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 18, 2021, 12:36:57 PM
I see negligence in that video.  That crack is way visible to the eye of a reasonable person.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
2. Crack is pretty straight, easy to confuse with the structural thing at a glance. There is a similar line on the other side at the edge of a plate - which is just the edge of a plate

I really wonder if something from 2017 inspection would surface...

I disagree with you on both your points.  I'm a licensed professional engineer and certified bridge inspection team leader with years of bridge inspection experience.  There is no way that a qualified and competent bridge inspector should have failed to recognize that cracking in the 2019 drone video as a critical find needing immediate attention.  From what I've been able to gather I offer the following observations:

1. In one of ARDOT's new briefings, they stated that a consulting firm (whom I'm not going to name right now) was responsible for taking that video and that the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

2. The drone video did linger long enough on that fracture critical tension tie girder for a long enough period that it should easily have been recognized as being a serious, potentially catastrophic condition.

3. Rarely do inspection firms simply record drone footage and then send them to a DOT with nothing more than a "here you go" attitude.  Someone such as the project manager or responsible bridge inspection team leader would (or should) have reviewed all the collected drone video data.  If the firm collecting the drone data missed that crack or failed to follow up with appropriate additional inspections or notification, then I seriously question their qualifications and quality assurance/quality control protocols.  If it was negligence, laziness, an attitude of "it's not in my project scope", or something similar, then I fully support having that bridge inspector (or others) notified to authorities for a criminal investigation.  I also think that if any of those individuals are licensed professional engineers, then they should also be referred to their state licensing board for further investigation.

4. That crack is not "pretty straight" or "easily to confuse" to a professionally trained and properly qualified bridge inspector.

From what was also reported at that news conference, FHWA is going to be doing a comprehensive review of the entire ARDOT bridge inspection program - and rightfully so.  I also expect that all the FHWA representatives with every state DOT are going to be sharing these findings and carrying out some measure of additional review.

The most important role of any licensed professional engineer is placing public safety and trust above all else.

Pathetic statements always remind me to add some salt - couple tablespoons or so - to the rest of the story.  Of course, there is something coming up after that salt is added. For example:

K: 1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
E: I disagree with you on both your points. .... the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

So you disagree with my point and then repeat the same statement quoting the agency? Great job, I sure hope you pay a bit more attention to bridges!

Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: EngineerTM on May 18, 2021, 01:05:15 PM
Quote
Pathetic statements always remind me to add some salt - couple tablespoons or so - to the rest of the story.  Of course, there is something coming up after that salt is added. For example:

K: 1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
E: I disagree with you on both your points. .... the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

So you disagree with my point and then repeat the same statement quoting the agency? Great job, I sure hope you pay a bit more attention to bridges!

Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

You completely ignored my second point about the inspection focus - specifically that while the inspection focus was on other components, the drone video did linger long enough on that failing member and that a COMPETENT bridge inspector should have recognized this as a serious condition.  Apparently reading comprehension is difficult for you.  It doesn't matter what the ~focus~ of the inspection scope was - the video evidence was there and it should have been recognized for what it was at the time that the drone video data was either collected or reviewed.

Throughout my career, I've identified defects such as this in their early stages well before a closure was required and well before the public was put at risk and with ample time to take corrective actions that didn't require closing the bridge.  So yes, I take bridge inspection very seriously and pay attention to what I'm inspecting.  And while I've been on inspections that may have been focusing on certain areas, I still observe everything around it to see if anything looks off.  That is what a well trained and qualified bridge inspector does (or should be doing).

"Humans are prone to mistakes..."  When it comes to public safety, I take this way more serious than you seem to do with your apparent flippant statement.  This time, ARDOT, TDOT, and every motorist on that bridge got lucky that there wasn't a catastrophic failure.  I wonder if you would have been so understanding to the poor plight of the inspector who failed in his basic duties had it resulted in emergency services pulling bodies out of the river.  Most of the public takes for granted that the bridges that they drive over are safe and reliable.  That is why bridge inspections are done following procedures and regulations that have long been defined by federal law.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on May 18, 2021, 01:08:17 PM
I see negligence in that video.  That crack is way visible to the eye of a reasonable person.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
2. Crack is pretty straight, easy to confuse with the structural thing at a glance. There is a similar line on the other side at the edge of a plate - which is just the edge of a plate

I really wonder if something from 2017 inspection would surface...

I disagree with you on both your points.  I'm a licensed professional engineer and certified bridge inspection team leader with years of bridge inspection experience.  There is no way that a qualified and competent bridge inspector should have failed to recognize that cracking in the 2019 drone video as a critical find needing immediate attention.  From what I've been able to gather I offer the following observations:

1. In one of ARDOT's new briefings, they stated that a consulting firm (whom I'm not going to name right now) was responsible for taking that video and that the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

2. The drone video did linger long enough on that fracture critical tension tie girder for a long enough period that it should easily have been recognized as being a serious, potentially catastrophic condition.

3. Rarely do inspection firms simply record drone footage and then send them to a DOT with nothing more than a "here you go" attitude.  Someone such as the project manager or responsible bridge inspection team leader would (or should) have reviewed all the collected drone video data.  If the firm collecting the drone data missed that crack or failed to follow up with appropriate additional inspections or notification, then I seriously question their qualifications and quality assurance/quality control protocols.  If it was negligence, laziness, an attitude of "it's not in my project scope", or something similar, then I fully support having that bridge inspector (or others) notified to authorities for a criminal investigation.  I also think that if any of those individuals are licensed professional engineers, then they should also be referred to their state licensing board for further investigation.

4. That crack is not "pretty straight" or "easily to confuse" to a professionally trained and properly qualified bridge inspector.

From what was also reported at that news conference, FHWA is going to be doing a comprehensive review of the entire ARDOT bridge inspection program - and rightfully so.  I also expect that all the FHWA representatives with every state DOT are going to be sharing these findings and carrying out some measure of additional review.

The most important role of any licensed professional engineer is placing public safety and trust above all else.

Pathetic statements always remind me to add some salt - couple tablespoons or so - to the rest of the story.  Of course, there is something coming up after that salt is added. For example:

K: 1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
E: I disagree with you on both your points. .... the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

So you disagree with my point and then repeat the same statement quoting the agency? Great job, I sure hope you pay a bit more attention to bridges!

Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

The issue is the court of public opinion is not going to agree with this.  They will be focused on the reasonable person doctrine.  A reasonable person not learned in bridge engineering can clearly see the fracture in plain sight.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: EngineerTM on May 18, 2021, 01:13:08 PM
Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

While humans are prone to mistakes, competent firms and agencies put quality control and quality assurance review policies into practice to help mitigate human error as much as feasible.  This was a significant failure that should not have happened, and it should not result in only one inspector losing their job.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 18, 2021, 01:49:19 PM
Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

While humans are prone to mistakes, competent firms and and agencies put quality control and quality assurance review policies into practice to help mitigate human error as much as feasible.  This was a significant failure that should not have happened, and it should not result in only one inspector losing their job.

Lets try again - quality control is not applicable to items beyond the scope of work. Which was - "suspension rods and upper framing."
 I am sure inspection checklists for "suspension rods and upper framing." are completed, and there are no issues reported with those items. Once again - with that in mind, what is  exactly you point about quality control here?
 If anything, a bridge inspection crane could be used for below-deck work and that could be where they spot the issue. Was that part of inspection in 2019? 
I wouldn't be surprised if videos for engineering review were trimmed off, with river views and landing removed - or fast-forwarded by reviewer.

And on a more general aspect here:

From my experience, there is one thing which US engineering puts above everything else - above safety, above trust, above common sense: COMPLIANCE. Safety may be a distant second, if that.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 18, 2021, 02:00:25 PM
Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

While humans are prone to mistakes, competent firms and agencies put quality control and quality assurance review policies into practice to help mitigate human error as much as feasible.  This was a significant failure that should not have happened, and it should not result in only one inspector losing their job.

Things get old, they break, though something is not right if you miss a critical problem.  If this problem had been found 2-3 years ago, would the bridge have been closed for repairs?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on May 18, 2021, 02:40:05 PM
Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

While humans are prone to mistakes, competent firms and agencies put quality control and quality assurance review policies into practice to help mitigate human error as much as feasible.  This was a significant failure that should not have happened, and it should not result in only one inspector losing their job.

Things get old, they break, though something is not right if you miss a critical problem.  If this problem had been found 2-3 years ago, would the bridge have been closed for repairs?

I say no.  They would let it go as long as there was no major catastrophe.  That's why I find all this so comical.  It's not the failure in the inspection, its the failure to do something about it.  Didn't the I-35W bridge get a structurally deficient grade before it collapsed?  As long as there is no issue right now, let it go!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 18, 2021, 04:23:32 PM
I still do not see where this member actually supports anything. There are far too few rivets actually holding it to the support (rod or cable). I still believe if it has any function at all it is  horizontal stabilization. Meaning keeping the actual deck supports from torsioning (twisting, dancing ...think swinging your hips doing the twist but on a MUCH smaller scale). I think this feature is primarily to support the deck support beam during a maintenance operation that removes the suspension cable / rod. It would also lend some redundancy if a support cable / rod failed. This torsioning would explain the break too.

This design is too far off the beaten path to just say, this is how the books say it works.  I realize I am only positing guesses.  I want to figure out how the design works maybe to confirm my theories, and maybe to see what the real risk actually was. I am not going to suggest that they should have left it open, but really knowing how serious it actually is / was.

As to the 2019 video, it was not what he was looking at/for. He may have fast forwarded to the part he was looking for. The cable and the truss.  Even if he had seen it as he was quickly looking for what he was tasked to look at, he might have mistaken it for a scratch in the paint, or debris, even bird poop (yes, I know that bird poop is a stretch.)

Again, I wish I knew how the weight is supposed to be distributed on this thing.

Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 18, 2021, 04:56:09 PM
I still do not see where this member actually supports anything. There are far too few rivets actually holding it to the support (rod or cable). I still believe if it has any function at all it is  horizontal stabilization. Meaning keeping the actual deck supports from torsioning (twisting, dancing ...think swinging your hips doing the twist but on a MUCH smaller scale). I think this feature is primarily to support the deck support beam during a maintenance operation that removes the suspension cable / rod. It would also lend some redundancy if a support cable / rod failed. This torsioning would explain the break too.

This design is too far off the beaten path to just say, this is how the books say it works.  I realize I am only positing guesses.  I want to figure out how the design works maybe to confirm my theories, and maybe to see what the real risk actually was. I am not going to suggest that they should have left it open, but really knowing how serious it actually is / was.

As to the 2019 video, it was not what he was looking at/for. He may have fast forwarded to the part he was looking for. The cable and the truss.  Even if he had seen it as he was quickly looking for what he was tasked to look at, he might have mistaken it for a scratch in the paint, or debris, even bird poop (yes, I know that bird poop is a stretch.)

Again, I wish I knew how the weight is supposed to be distributed on this thing.
Thank you for the educated guesses - this is significantly more than I can come up with myself. If you come across any details, I - for one - would greatly appreciate sharing them.

I wonder if that beam was classified as "fracture critical" though. Bridge shutdown implies that.
 If so, requirement is to have hands on inspection, when inspector gets at arm length (<3') of the inspected spot. So biannual close inspection - drones seem to be not suitable to the regulation - is a must. There is a rumor Arkansas specifically reduced that to a year (but maybe covid?)
Anyway, fired inspector purportedly missed the crack at least TWICE - and drone footage is just a proof that inspection really missed that and the crack was there during previous cycles. Drone was clearly further away and not zooming to "arm length" quality. 
Which brings up a question if being a  licensed professional engineer and certified bridge inspection team leader implies knowing this information...

UPD: some digging - Of course the bridge is classified as fracture critical, FC inspection date is September 2019, inspection interval 24 months, although AR indeed conducts FC inspections annually. Looks like 2020 inspection was not submitted to FHWA.  Structure number 79I00400001 for TN and 000000000005141 for AR.  Drone footage was taken in May 2019 and was explicitly not a part of FC inspection.
 
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 18, 2021, 05:27:19 PM
I don't like how Interstate 40, on the east end of the bridge, drops from six lanes to four lanes through the Riverside Dr. interchange. It should be six lanes all the way through. Also, I have noticed that the eastbound off-ramp and the westbound on-ramp to and from Front Street have stub ramps: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1529006,-90.0522629,473m/data=!3m1!1e3. Were those stub ramps to have gone to an unbuilt freeway in Memphis, such as an extension of TN 300 or an extension of Riverside Dr.?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 18, 2021, 05:57:08 PM
I don't like how Interstate 40, on the east end of the bridge, drops from six lanes to four lanes through the Riverside Dr. interchange. It should be six lanes all the way through. Also, I have noticed that the eastbound off-ramp and the westbound on-ramp to and from Front Street have stub ramps: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1529006,-90.0522629,473m/data=!3m1!1e3. Were those stub ramps to have gone to an unbuilt freeway in Memphis, such as an extension of TN 300 or an extension of Riverside Dr.?

The HDB was originally 4 lanes (2X2) they took the shoulders and narrowed the lanes into 3x3.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: EngineerTM on May 18, 2021, 06:29:54 PM
I still do not see where this member actually supports anything. There are far too few rivets actually holding it to the support (rod or cable). I still believe if it has any function at all it is  horizontal stabilization. Meaning keeping the actual deck supports from torsioning (twisting, dancing ...think swinging your hips doing the twist but on a MUCH smaller scale). I think this feature is primarily to support the deck support beam during a maintenance operation that removes the suspension cable / rod. It would also lend some redundancy if a support cable / rod failed. This torsioning would explain the break too.

The two main truss spans are a through arch/tied arch bridge.  The best way to think of how a tied arch bridge behaves is similar to an archery bow.  The upper truss framing is the compression side of the bridge (like the bow) and the bottom tie girders is the tension side of the bridge (like the bowstring).  Think about what happens if you pull on an archery bow and the bowstring suddenly breaks - the bow itself suddenly snaps itself out of its bowed shape.

This was the structural risk to this bridge.  If that lower tie girder was to have fractured completely, the upper truss framing would have lost that critical support and could have progressively and rapidly failed as one or more of those members buckled.  Photos released from TDOT showed that the bottom plate of the box was still intact, but the crack was starting to work itself through.

This is the simple way of looking at it.  Because this through arch/tied arch bridge does not have load path redundancy, a complete failure of the lower tie girder could have caused either a partial or full collapse of the bridge because the "bowstring" would not have been tying the entire structure together.

As to your question about the number of fasteners - steel is very strong in tension and you don't need a lot of material to make it work, structurally.  Where steel gets into trouble is in compression; the steel shapes tend to buckle, which is why there is so much additional frame bracing.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: EngineerTM on May 18, 2021, 06:44:50 PM
As to the 2019 video, it was not what he was looking at/for. He may have fast forwarded to the part he was looking for. The cable and the truss.  Even if he had seen it as he was quickly looking for what he was tasked to look at, he might have mistaken it for a scratch in the paint, or debris, even bird poop (yes, I know that bird poop is a stretch.)

It is very unfortunate that the inspector either taking or reviewing the drone video did not fully appreciate the severity of what was revealed (whether he was rushed or otherwise).  The proper course of action would have been to pause and carefully look at those frames to see what that was.  Doing one's due diligence as an inspector should have been, at least, to make a couple phone calls and ask for a follow up field check to verify what that anomaly was.  I watched that video; it's not like it was a quick glancing flyby that was only in the frame for a couple seconds.  It was visible for longer than that and even to an untrained eye, not easy to miss.

Regardless, this does not excuse the negligence of whoever was responsible for the arm's length fracture critical inspection prior to this drone inspection.  If it is later determined to be a fatigue crack, then such a crack should have been detected and acted upon earlier when it likely would have been less costly (in terms of material and labor costs, as well as the high economic costs) to correct.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 18, 2021, 09:42:52 PM
https://www.tn.gov/tdot/news/2021/5/17/tdot-awards-contract-on-the-i-40-hernando-desoto-bridge-repair.html

Kiewit Infrastructure Group selected to fix I-40 bridge.

There is a link in that press release that could be of interest:

Interstate 40 Hernando DeSoto Bridge:  https://www.tn.gov/tdot/projects/region-4/i-40-hernando-desoto-bridge.html
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 18, 2021, 09:51:31 PM
The two main truss spans are a through arch/tied arch bridge.  The best way to think of how a tied arch bridge behaves is similar to an archery bow.  The upper truss framing is the compression side of the bridge (like the bow) and the bottom tie girders is the tension side of the bridge (like the bowstring).  Think about what happens if you pull on an archery bow and the bowstring suddenly breaks - the bow itself suddenly snaps itself out of its bowed shape.

This was the structural risk to this bridge.  If that lower tie girder was to have fractured completely, the upper truss framing would have lost that critical support and could have progressively and rapidly failed as one or more of those members buckled.  Photos released from TDOT showed that the bottom plate of the box was still intact, but the crack was starting to work itself through.

This is the simple way of looking at it.  Because this through arch/tied arch bridge does not have load path redundancy, a complete failure of the lower tie girder could have caused either a partial or full collapse of the bridge because the "bowstring" would not have been tying the entire structure together.

As to your question about the number of fasteners - steel is very strong in tension and you don't need a lot of material to make it work, structurally.  Where steel gets into trouble is in compression; the steel shapes tend to buckle, which is why there is so much additional frame bracing.

Thank you for the thorough and lucid discussion of why the crack in that member is such a big deal.

Should fracture-critical bridges get an inspection every 12 months instead of every 24 months?  Especially  bridges that were constructed in the peak of Interstate construction in the late 1950's though about 1970 and have components that are fracture-critical - bridges that are now 50 to 60 years old and probably carrying heavier loads from laden trucks than those allowed when the the bridges were engineered.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: davewiecking on May 18, 2021, 10:06:37 PM
So the crack was forming in 2016….
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 18, 2021, 10:09:00 PM
The two main truss spans are a through arch/tied arch bridge.  The best way to think of how a tied arch bridge behaves is similar to an archery bow.  The upper truss framing is the compression side of the bridge (like the bow) and the bottom tie girders is the tension side of the bridge (like the bowstring).  Think about what happens if you pull on an archery bow and the bowstring suddenly breaks - the bow itself suddenly snaps itself out of its bowed shape.

This was the structural risk to this bridge.  If that lower tie girder was to have fractured completely, the upper truss framing would have lost that critical support and could have progressively and rapidly failed as one or more of those members buckled.  Photos released from TDOT showed that the bottom plate of the box was still intact, but the crack was starting to work itself through.

This is the simple way of looking at it.  Because this through arch/tied arch bridge does not have load path redundancy, a complete failure of the lower tie girder could have caused either a partial or full collapse of the bridge because the "bowstring" would not have been tying the entire structure together.

As to your question about the number of fasteners - steel is very strong in tension and you don't need a lot of material to make it work, structurally.  Where steel gets into trouble is in compression; the steel shapes tend to buckle, which is why there is so much additional frame bracing.

Thank you for the thorough and lucid discussion of why the crack in that member is such a big deal.

Should fracture-critical bridges get an inspection every 12 months instead of every 24 months?  Especially  bridges that were constructed in the peak of Interstate construction in the late 1950's though about 1970 and have components that are fracture-critical - bridges that are now 50 to 60 years old and probably carrying heavier loads from laden trucks than those allowed when the the bridges were engineered.
This bridge was inspected on 12 month schedule, at least 2 last inspections - and maybe more! - didn't reveal the problem.
If anything, there should be a trend to better inspection methods as human eye is no longer the best available instrument. Strain gauges at critical points - a lot of them, fed into numeric models?. Eddy current and ultrasonic tools on a larger scale? AI analysys of inspection footage? Something else? Not sure.

As for older stuff... I found some report on Delaware river bridge, NJ-PA turnpike one, which had a similar crack few years ago. Fairly hair raising read I should say.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 18, 2021, 10:17:47 PM
So the crack was forming in 2016….
Do I hear 2014? Cm'on, guys, we can find that!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on May 18, 2021, 10:49:06 PM
There was a group who canoed up the Mississippi in 2016 and carried a camera to document for Google Maps.

If you follow their route, and zoom in on the bridge just before they go under, you can see a blurry outline of the fracture.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on May 19, 2021, 09:49:08 AM
There was a group who canoed up the Mississippi in 2016 and carried a camera to document for Google Maps.

If you follow their route, and zoom in on the bridge just before they go under, you can see a blurry outline of the fracture.

Link or it didn't happen.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 19, 2021, 10:10:13 AM
There was a group who canoed up the Mississippi in 2016 and carried a camera to document for Google Maps.

If you follow their route, and zoom in on the bridge just before they go under, you can see a blurry outline of the fracture.

Link or it didn't happen.
I guess this is more or less the image, give or take. I couldn't find the fault, though:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1525487,-90.0594502,2a,90y,341.8h,92.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMJuyEhoFckHN_08QyU2CrA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 19, 2021, 11:19:50 AM
There was a group who canoed up the Mississippi in 2016 and carried a camera to document for Google Maps.

If you follow their route, and zoom in on the bridge just before they go under, you can see a blurry outline of the fracture.

Link or it didn't happen.

Que?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: codyg1985 on May 19, 2021, 11:23:08 AM
Finally, TDOT has updated one of the message boards for I-40 westbound traffic in Nashville to warn of the closure of the bridge.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: silverback1065 on May 19, 2021, 12:13:32 PM
I still do not see where this member actually supports anything. There are far too few rivets actually holding it to the support (rod or cable). I still believe if it has any function at all it is  horizontal stabilization. Meaning keeping the actual deck supports from torsioning (twisting, dancing ...think swinging your hips doing the twist but on a MUCH smaller scale). I think this feature is primarily to support the deck support beam during a maintenance operation that removes the suspension cable / rod. It would also lend some redundancy if a support cable / rod failed. This torsioning would explain the break too.

The two main truss spans are a through arch/tied arch bridge.  The best way to think of how a tied arch bridge behaves is similar to an archery bow.  The upper truss framing is the compression side of the bridge (like the bow) and the bottom tie girders is the tension side of the bridge (like the bowstring).  Think about what happens if you pull on an archery bow and the bowstring suddenly breaks - the bow itself suddenly snaps itself out of its bowed shape.

This was the structural risk to this bridge.  If that lower tie girder was to have fractured completely, the upper truss framing would have lost that critical support and could have progressively and rapidly failed as one or more of those members buckled.  Photos released from TDOT showed that the bottom plate of the box was still intact, but the crack was starting to work itself through.

This is the simple way of looking at it.  Because this through arch/tied arch bridge does not have load path redundancy, a complete failure of the lower tie girder could have caused either a partial or full collapse of the bridge because the "bowstring" would not have been tying the entire structure together.

As to your question about the number of fasteners - steel is very strong in tension and you don't need a lot of material to make it work, structurally.  Where steel gets into trouble is in compression; the steel shapes tend to buckle, which is why there is so much additional frame bracing.

Sounds like you're a structural engineer. thanks for the explanation! makes a lot of sense now!  :clap:
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 19, 2021, 01:45:05 PM
Interestingly enough, there was an updated set of gauges, primarily for seismic monitoring, installed on a bridge in 2016. That includes a strain gauge on a cracked member.
I wonder if any anomalies would show up in that data, and if there would be useful for  future problem detection.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: cjw2001 on May 19, 2021, 09:20:46 PM
https://www.google.com/search?q=little+rock+ar+to+nashville+tn&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

I see Google reroutes EB travelers through city streets to connect back to I-40 once in Memphis.  I would think to stay on I-55 to I-240 East would be better.

Google directions are not static - they will vary depending on current traffic conditions.  It's likely that at the specific point in time you asked for directions this was the better choice.  Ask again a few hours later and you may get a different answer.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 20, 2021, 04:21:01 PM
Looking at documents that have been posted on-line leads me to think there isn't a lot of training when it comes to inspecting.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 20, 2021, 04:26:11 PM
Looking at documents that have been posted on-line leads me to think there isn't a lot of training when it comes to inspecting.
$1000 for 10 days of full-time training.
https://www.nhi.fhwa.dot.gov/course-search?course_no=130055
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 20, 2021, 05:02:26 PM
Looking at documents that have been posted on-line leads me to think there isn't a lot of training when it comes to inspecting.
$1000 for 10 days of full-time training.
https://www.nhi.fhwa.dot.gov/course-search?course_no=130055


Many of NHI Web-Based Training courses are currently off line to address required updates. Our technical team is diligently working to complete the updates and the updated courses will be posted as they become available. The high access/high priority courses are scheduled to become available by early Summer of 2021. Expect all other courses by late Summer of 2021. We will provide announcements as content becomes available. We apologize for any inconvenience this causes and we appreciate your selecting National Highway Institute for your training needs
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 20, 2021, 05:29:47 PM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Big John on May 20, 2021, 06:26:39 PM
Looking at documents that have been posted on-line leads me to think there isn't a lot of training when it comes to inspecting.
$1000 for 10 days of full-time training.
https://www.nhi.fhwa.dot.gov/course-search?course_no=130055

My employer paid more tan that for my training 22 years ago.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 21, 2021, 11:06:16 AM
Looking at documents that have been posted on-line leads me to think there isn't a lot of training when it comes to inspecting.
$1000 for 10 days of full-time training.
https://www.nhi.fhwa.dot.gov/course-search?course_no=130055

My employer paid more tan that for my training 22 years ago.

Actually they will do it on your site for as low as $790. per student. (I am not sure how many students the minimum is.....)
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on May 21, 2021, 11:15:25 AM
Looking at documents that have been posted on-line leads me to think there isn't a lot of training when it comes to inspecting.
$1000 for 10 days of full-time training.
https://www.nhi.fhwa.dot.gov/course-search?course_no=130055

My employer paid more tan that for my training 22 years ago.

Actually they will do it on your site for as low as $790. per student. (I am not sure how many students the minimum is.....)
Minimum is 20, max is 30 per the fhwa page above.  Which is probably a mere cost of doing business.
If agency or company needs those certified inspectors and pais for the class, they should cover the compensation for students over those 2 weeks as well. That alone can easily exceed $1000 per student ($500/week = $26k annually).
Life in general is pretty expensive - but is still popular despite all costs.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikeTheActuary on May 22, 2021, 06:02:13 PM
TDOTs making a few changes at the I-55/Crump Ave cloverleaf, preparing for the long haul it seems:

https://wreg.com/news/i-55-ramp-lanes-closed-at-crump-avenue-interchange-this-weekend/
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: CtrlAltDel on May 22, 2021, 10:29:13 PM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge

It seems, then, that the repair to the bridge will consist of a number of plates attached to the beam in one way or another. That will be considerably easier than replacing it somehow.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on May 23, 2021, 12:03:55 AM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge

It seems, then, that the repair to the bridge will consist of a number of plates attached to the beam in one way or another. That will be considerably easier than replacing it somehow.

Fixing the bridge may take months. Replacing it could take years.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: CtrlAltDel on May 23, 2021, 12:15:28 AM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge

It seems, then, that the repair to the bridge will consist of a number of plates attached to the beam in one way or another. That will be considerably easier than replacing it somehow.

Fixing the bridge may take months. Replacing it could take years.

I'm sorry. I meant replacing the beam not replacing the bridge.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on May 24, 2021, 03:33:13 PM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge

It seems, then, that the repair to the bridge will consist of a number of plates attached to the beam in one way or another. That will be considerably easier than replacing it somehow.

The plates so I understand are just to stabilize / strengthen this bridge so they can get materials and equipment on the bridge build faleswork to remove and replace the entire 900' beam. Depending on what the find, they may replace the one on the other side of this span and possibly even the ones on the other arch.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on May 31, 2021, 02:40:19 PM
The eastbound Buckman Bridge (I-295) in Jacksonville, Florida had a finger joint fail last week, boy did that bring in the agencies from all over.

You could tell they had the Hernando deSoto on their minds when they shut down the traffic and caused chaos west of the St John's river.

They did a temp repair with steel plating and some patching and reopened it in a few hours, but the attention it got from all of the engineering firms, DOT district engineers and inspection crews had to set a new record.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on June 02, 2021, 02:39:57 PM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge

It seems, then, that the repair to the bridge will consist of a number of plates attached to the beam in one way or another. That will be considerably easier than replacing it somehow.

The plates so I understand are just to stabilize / strengthen this bridge so they can get materials and equipment on the bridge build faleswork to remove and replace the entire 900' beam. Depending on what the find, they may replace the one on the other side of this span and possibly even the ones on the other arch.


It appears they ARE NOT going to replace the whole beam. Looks like they are going to replace a short portion and reinforce is with extra plate.
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2021/05/27/memphis-bridge-crack-closure-reopening-schedule-june/7475556002/

By the way they had a jumper shut down the I-55 bridge today for a while. It is back open but.....
https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/police-activity-shuts-down-traffic-i-55-bridge/QU6JPFEIVBE6VMWALPG5SIZO6M/
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: CtrlAltDel on June 02, 2021, 02:53:27 PM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge

It seems, then, that the repair to the bridge will consist of a number of plates attached to the beam in one way or another. That will be considerably easier than replacing it somehow.

The plates so I understand are just to stabilize / strengthen this bridge so they can get materials and equipment on the bridge build faleswork to remove and replace the entire 900' beam. Depending on what the find, they may replace the one on the other side of this span and possibly even the ones on the other arch.

It appears they ARE NOT going to replace the whole beam. Looks like they are boing to replace a short portion and reinforce is with extra plate.
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2021/05/27/memphis-bridge-crack-closure-reopening-schedule-june/7475556002/

Interesting. I guess that makes the most sense given the desire to get the bridge back up and running this month.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: abqtraveler on June 02, 2021, 04:20:59 PM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge

It seems, then, that the repair to the bridge will consist of a number of plates attached to the beam in one way or another. That will be considerably easier than replacing it somehow.

The plates so I understand are just to stabilize / strengthen this bridge so they can get materials and equipment on the bridge build faleswork to remove and replace the entire 900' beam. Depending on what the find, they may replace the one on the other side of this span and possibly even the ones on the other arch.

It appears they ARE NOT going to replace the whole beam. Looks like they are boing to replace a short portion and reinforce is with extra plate.
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2021/05/27/memphis-bridge-crack-closure-reopening-schedule-june/7475556002/

Interesting. I guess that makes the most sense given the desire to get the bridge back up and running this month.
What I read is the section they are replacing will be around 37 feet long, not 900 feet.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 02, 2021, 06:12:50 PM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge

It seems, then, that the repair to the bridge will consist of a number of plates attached to the beam in one way or another. That will be considerably easier than replacing it somehow.

The plates so I understand are just to stabilize / strengthen this bridge so they can get materials and equipment on the bridge build faleswork to remove and replace the entire 900' beam. Depending on what the find, they may replace the one on the other side of this span and possibly even the ones on the other arch.

It appears they ARE NOT going to replace the whole beam. Looks like they are boing to replace a short portion and reinforce is with extra plate.
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2021/05/27/memphis-bridge-crack-closure-reopening-schedule-june/7475556002/

Interesting. I guess that makes the most sense given the desire to get the bridge back up and running this month.
What I read is the section they are replacing will be around 37 feet long, not 900 feet.
Would be interesting to see what they found around the crack. Report from similar event PA-NJ turnpike bridge I saw basically says "oh, shit happens, who knows what was it?". If there is no smoking gun about entire beam being bad, partial replacement is an obvious step.
I assume that  since the crack happened too close to the joint for a patch to fit nicely, they will replace portion between joint to some point past the crack, far enough to fit all the connections.
I wish I could peak at lab testing results...
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on June 02, 2021, 10:12:38 PM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge

It seems, then, that the repair to the bridge will consist of a number of plates attached to the beam in one way or another. That will be considerably easier than replacing it somehow.

The plates so I understand are just to stabilize / strengthen this bridge so they can get materials and equipment on the bridge build faleswork to remove and replace the entire 900' beam. Depending on what the find, they may replace the one on the other side of this span and possibly even the ones on the other arch.

It appears they ARE NOT going to replace the whole beam. Looks like they are boing to replace a short portion and reinforce is with extra plate.
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2021/05/27/memphis-bridge-crack-closure-reopening-schedule-june/7475556002/

Interesting. I guess that makes the most sense given the desire to get the bridge back up and running this month.
What I read is the section they are replacing will be around 37 feet long, not 900 feet.


The original releases said the entire beam. I said (above) that they were only going to replace a short piece.  I had not seen the length of the proposed (shorter) repair beam segment.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 02, 2021, 10:30:57 PM
https://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2021/05/20/stupp-bridge-co-sheds-light-efforts-repair-i-bridge/

Stupp Bridge Co. sheds light on efforts to repair I-40 bridge

It seems, then, that the repair to the bridge will consist of a number of plates attached to the beam in one way or another. That will be considerably easier than replacing it somehow.

The plates so I understand are just to stabilize / strengthen this bridge so they can get materials and equipment on the bridge build faleswork to remove and replace the entire 900' beam. Depending on what the find, they may replace the one on the other side of this span and possibly even the ones on the other arch.

It appears they ARE NOT going to replace the whole beam. Looks like they are boing to replace a short portion and reinforce is with extra plate.
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2021/05/27/memphis-bridge-crack-closure-reopening-schedule-june/7475556002/

Interesting. I guess that makes the most sense given the desire to get the bridge back up and running this month.
What I read is the section they are replacing will be around 37 feet long, not 900 feet.


The original releases said the entire beam. I said (above) that they were only going to replace a short piece.  I had not seen the length of the proposed (shorter) repair beam segment.
37 feet are mentioned in some articles, e.g.
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2021/05/18/interstate-40-bridge-memphis-closure-heres-what-know-hernando-de-soto/5126946001/
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on June 03, 2021, 11:05:29 AM
Computer models that describe why the fracture appeared at that spot are shown in this video:

https://www.commercialappeal.com/videos/news/2021/05/14/bridge-animation-hernando-de-soto-bridge/5092588001/ (https://www.commercialappeal.com/videos/news/2021/05/14/bridge-animation-hernando-de-soto-bridge/5092588001/)

i was having a hard time visualizing why the fracture appeared in that particular spot, the video explains it perfectly.

It also means that the DOT's should probably xray the duplicate beams on each side and see if there are microfractures forming due to the stress.

Also I wonder how much stress was redistributed to other locations after the fracture completed.

Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 03, 2021, 02:56:18 PM
Computer models that describe why the fracture appeared at that spot are shown in this video:

https://www.commercialappeal.com/videos/news/2021/05/14/bridge-animation-hernando-de-soto-bridge/5092588001/ (https://www.commercialappeal.com/videos/news/2021/05/14/bridge-animation-hernando-de-soto-bridge/5092588001/)

i was having a hard time visualizing why the fracture appeared in that particular spot, the video explains it perfectly.

It also means that the DOT's should probably xray the duplicate beams on each side and see if there are microfractures forming due to the stress.

Also I wonder how much stress was redistributed to other locations after the fracture completed.
Not sure if anything is actually explained. They show entire beam as being stressed during the life of the bridge - but do we expect any component of the bridge not to be loaded? Did the beam get loaded beyond design limits? Nothing really makes that particular location to stand out as overloaded compared to other points.
Last, but not the least - loads they show should stretch beam bottom most. In reality, top of the beam is split open while the bottom is still intact - indicating top of the beam being stretched.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on June 03, 2021, 03:13:07 PM
Computer models that describe why the fracture appeared at that spot are shown in this video:

https://www.commercialappeal.com/videos/news/2021/05/14/bridge-animation-hernando-de-soto-bridge/5092588001/ (https://www.commercialappeal.com/videos/news/2021/05/14/bridge-animation-hernando-de-soto-bridge/5092588001/)

i was having a hard time visualizing why the fracture appeared in that particular spot, the video explains it perfectly.

It also means that the DOT's should probably xray the duplicate beams on each side and see if there are microfractures forming due to the stress.

Also I wonder how much stress was redistributed to other locations after the fracture completed.
Not sure if anything is actually explained. They show entire beam as being stressed during the life of the bridge - but do we expect any component of the bridge not to be loaded? Did the beam get loaded beyond design limits? Nothing really makes that particular location to stand out as overloaded compared to other points.
Last, but not the least - loads they show should stretch beam bottom most. In reality, top of the beam is split open while the bottom is still intact - indicating top of the beam being stretched.

Sounds like one (or more) of the cables / rods was either more / less taught or more / less elastic than the others.  It could be a load issue or one-time damage.  The differing lengths could cause the less elastic (shorter) suspenders to have a different load due to the elasticity per length unit being fixed, but the  total elasticity being different due to the length.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 03, 2021, 03:24:14 PM
What would be a projected failure timeframe had this fracture not been noticed?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 03, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
Computer models that describe why the fracture appeared at that spot are shown in this video:

https://www.commercialappeal.com/videos/news/2021/05/14/bridge-animation-hernando-de-soto-bridge/5092588001/ (https://www.commercialappeal.com/videos/news/2021/05/14/bridge-animation-hernando-de-soto-bridge/5092588001/)

i was having a hard time visualizing why the fracture appeared in that particular spot, the video explains it perfectly.

It also means that the DOT's should probably xray the duplicate beams on each side and see if there are microfractures forming due to the stress.

Also I wonder how much stress was redistributed to other locations after the fracture completed.
Not sure if anything is actually explained. They show entire beam as being stressed during the life of the bridge - but do we expect any component of the bridge not to be loaded? Did the beam get loaded beyond design limits? Nothing really makes that particular location to stand out as overloaded compared to other points.
Last, but not the least - loads they show should stretch beam bottom most. In reality, top of the beam is split open while the bottom is still intact - indicating top of the beam being stretched.

Sounds like one (or more) of the cables / rods was either more / less taught or more / less elastic than the others.  It could be a load issue or one-time damage.  The differing lengths could cause the less elastic (shorter) suspenders to have a different load due to the elasticity per length unit being fixed, but the  total elasticity being different due to the length.
Plausible, but I would love to see that defect explicitly confirmed.
Different spring constant of different length cables is there, but I would think that should result in a span moving into some U shape because of that, not load concentration.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 03, 2021, 03:34:38 PM
What would be a projected failure timeframe had this fracture not been noticed?
I don't think anyone really wants to discuss it. Looks like the crack was there for 5 years, and bridge still stays in one piece...
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: webny99 on June 03, 2021, 11:10:39 PM
Got a screenshot yesterday afternoon of the backup to get on the I-55 bridge heading west. Had to add several waypoints to force Google to route along Crump Blvd, and it's no wonder why: 1 hour to go the 5 miles from I-40/I-69 to the bridge!

(https://imgur.com/LMiJBjO.jpg)


I-55 itself was almost as bad, this from about an hour earlier:

(https://imgur.com/bCFEuv9.jpg)



Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 10:20:54 AM
Got a screenshot yesterday afternoon of the backup to get on the I-55 bridge heading west. Had to add several waypoints to force Google to route along Crump Blvd, and it's no wonder why: 1 hour to go the 5 miles from I-40/I-69 to the bridge!

(https://imgur.com/LMiJBjO.jpg)


I-55 itself was almost as bad, this from about an hour earlier:

(https://imgur.com/bCFEuv9.jpg)

What time of day was this plotted?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: webny99 on June 04, 2021, 12:17:55 PM
Got a screenshot yesterday afternoon of the backup to get on the I-55 bridge heading west. Had to add several waypoints to force Google to route along Crump Blvd, and it's no wonder why: 1 hour to go the 5 miles from I-40/I-69 to the bridge!

[img]


I-55 itself was almost as bad, this from about an hour earlier:

[img]

What time of day was this plotted?

The first one was about 3:30 Central Time, and the second one was about an hour earlier, 2:30 Central Time, on June 2nd.

I think it was extra bad that day because of this:
By the way they had a jumper shut down the I-55 bridge today for a while. It is back open but.....
https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/police-activity-shuts-down-traffic-i-55-bridge/QU6JPFEIVBE6VMWALPG5SIZO6M/
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 04, 2021, 01:47:00 PM
Got a screenshot yesterday afternoon of the backup to get on the I-55 bridge heading west. Had to add several waypoints to force Google to route along Crump Blvd, and it's no wonder why: 1 hour to go the 5 miles from I-40/I-69 to the bridge!

[img]


I-55 itself was almost as bad, this from about an hour earlier:

[img]

What time of day was this plotted?

The first one was about 3:30 Central Time, and the second one was about an hour earlier, 2:30 Central Time, on June 2nd.

I think it was extra bad that day because of this:
By the way they had a jumper shut down the I-55 bridge today for a while. It is back open but.....
https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/police-activity-shuts-down-traffic-i-55-bridge/QU6JPFEIVBE6VMWALPG5SIZO6M/

The jumper should have used the DeSoto Bridge. They would have had the whole thing to themselves.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on June 04, 2021, 03:38:10 PM
Got a screenshot yesterday afternoon of the backup to get on the I-55 bridge heading west. Had to add several waypoints to force Google to route along Crump Blvd, and it's no wonder why: 1 hour to go the 5 miles from I-40/I-69 to the bridge!

[img]


I-55 itself was almost as bad, this from about an hour earlier:

[img]

What time of day was this plotted?

The first one was about 3:30 Central Time, and the second one was about an hour earlier, 2:30 Central Time, on June 2nd.

I think it was extra bad that day because of this:
By the way they had a jumper shut down the I-55 bridge today for a while. It is back open but.....
https://www.fox13memphis.com/news/local/police-activity-shuts-down-traffic-i-55-bridge/QU6JPFEIVBE6VMWALPG5SIZO6M/

The jumper should have used the DeSoto Bridge. They would have had the whole thing to themselves.

Yeah, but many jumpers are wanting attention &/or someone to "save" them.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Tomahawkin on June 07, 2021, 10:12:14 PM
I Drove from Atlanta to Jonesboro AR going through 840 bypassing Nashvegas. And then took US 412 from Jackson to Dyersburg to Caruthersville, and then to Blytheville. on The Friday before Memorial day. The traffic was light on 412 and it only cost me about 40 minutes of time because I refuse to take that IH 55 Bridge over the Mississippi. It needs to be rebuilt. One medium sized earthquake in that area would F traffic up in the worse way. IMO 269 or 69 needs to be built over the Mississippi. This should be mandated even if there is a 50 cent toll... Both Tennesses and Arkansas, need to start tolling the out of state travelers who go through there en route to Texas and Florida, for state infrastructure reasons!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on June 07, 2021, 10:15:31 PM
I Drove from Atlanta to Jonesboro AR going through 840 bypassing Nashvegas. And then took US 412 from Jackson to Dyersburg to Caruthersville, and then to Blytheville. on The Friday before Memorial day. The traffic was light on 412 and it only cost me about 40 minutes of time because I refuse to take that IH 55 Bridge over the Mississippi. It needs to be rebuilt. One medium sized earthquake in that area would F traffic up in the worse way. IMO 269 or 69 needs to be built over the Mississippi. This should be mandated even if there is a 50 cent toll... Both Tennesses and Arkansas, need to start tolling the out of state travelers who go through there en route to Texas and Florida, for state infrastructure reasons!

That was discussed a few years ago, but it was put on the back burner, in part, because 55 would have to be shut down.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 07, 2021, 11:13:54 PM
I Drove from Atlanta to Jonesboro AR going through 840 bypassing Nashvegas. And then took US 412 from Jackson to Dyersburg to Caruthersville, and then to Blytheville. on The Friday before Memorial day. The traffic was light on 412 and it only cost me about 40 minutes of time because I refuse to take that IH 55 Bridge over the Mississippi. It needs to be rebuilt. One medium sized earthquake in that area would F traffic up in the worse way. IMO 269 or 69 needs to be built over the Mississippi. This should be mandated even if there is a 50 cent toll... Both Tennesses and Arkansas, need to start tolling the out of state travelers who go through there en route to Texas and Florida, for state infrastructure reasons!

A toll in Tennessee now that’s rich.  I think they shut down the Tennessee Turnpike Commission which only existed on paper years ago.  I believe the only toll is the Ferry across the Tennessee River.  That’s actually not a toll but a user fee.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: froggie on June 08, 2021, 07:18:30 AM
Newsflash, Avalanchez:  tolls ARE user fees.  You only pay the toll if you use the facility.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 08, 2021, 08:12:33 AM
Newsflash, Avalanchez:  tolls ARE user fees.  You only pay the toll if you use the facility.

If there is a free alternative then I can see it as a user fee.  If there is not a free alternative then it is an extortion fee.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US 89 on June 08, 2021, 10:05:13 AM
Newsflash, Avalanchez:  tolls ARE user fees.  You only pay the toll if you use the facility.

If there is a free alternative then I can see it as a user fee.  If there is not a free alternative then it is an extortion fee.

Just about the only toll roads in the US without any sort of free alternative are bridges. Big bridges are expensive. Given your general lack of desire to spend taxpayer money on upgrading/widening/new construction, how else are we supposed to be able to build and maintain those?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 08, 2021, 10:56:13 AM
I Drove from Atlanta to Jonesboro AR going through 840 bypassing Nashvegas. And then took US 412 from Jackson to Dyersburg to Caruthersville, and then to Blytheville. on The Friday before Memorial day. The traffic was light on 412 and it only cost me about 40 minutes of time because I refuse to take that IH 55 Bridge over the Mississippi. It needs to be rebuilt. One medium sized earthquake in that area would F traffic up in the worse way. IMO 269 or 69 needs to be built over the Mississippi. This should be mandated even if there is a 50 cent toll... Both Tennesses and Arkansas, need to start tolling the out of state travelers who go through there en route to Texas and Florida, for state infrastructure reasons!
50 cents toll is not much these days.
Numbers below are for the new Tappan  Zee bridge in NY, but things should be similar
100k vehicles a day = 36 M vehicles a year. At 50cents per vehicle, that would be $18M annually
With $5B construction tag,  it would take 278 years to pay it off.
Or, in other words, that will not cover interest payment even at low rates.

Some of those vehicles are trucks, paying much more than cars - but still, things are not close to breaking even. Even before collection and maintenance costs are factored in
Make the toll $5-10, and now things would look better - but the commute across the bridge becomes pretty pricey...
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on June 08, 2021, 11:00:32 AM
Newsflash, Avalanchez:  tolls ARE user fees.  You only pay the toll if you use the facility.

If there is a free alternative then I can see it as a user fee.  If there is not a free alternative then it is an extortion fee.

Just about the only toll roads in the US without any sort of free alternative are bridges. Big bridges are expensive. Given your general lack of desire to spend taxpayer money on upgrading/widening/new construction, how else are we supposed to be able to build and maintain those?
Mind you, this is also the same person in opposition to any increased spending / gas taxes.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ixnay on June 08, 2021, 05:46:15 PM
Chiming in before Alps does... Aren't we getting into fictional territory with this new Memphis bridge idea?

ixnay
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on June 08, 2021, 05:51:46 PM
Chiming in before Alps does... Aren't we getting into fictional territory with this new Memphis bridge idea?

ixnay

Not entirely,
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikeTheActuary on June 09, 2021, 08:00:23 PM
This may be paywalled, but... https://dailymemphian.com/section/business/article/22417/hernando-desoto-bridge-signs-could-be-clearer

Local news article about inadequate signage about the detour.  Also, apparently this coming weekend they're going to try to convert the southbound-southbound ramp to two lanes
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikeTheActuary on June 09, 2021, 08:05:23 PM
Mentioned in the story linked in my prior post, TDOT has an animated YouTube short describing the repair plans:

Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 09, 2021, 08:22:41 PM
Mentioned in the story linked in my prior post, TDOT has an animated YouTube short describing the repair plans:

.
there is also a gallery towards the bottom of a page:
https://www.ardot.gov/divisions/public-information/40-ms-river-bridge/
Temporary plates are already being installed.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: webny99 on June 10, 2021, 03:26:47 PM
Wow, the traffic approaching the I-55 bridge has reached a new level of craziness. I-55 southbound is backed up nearly to Clarkedale, I-40 eastbound to Lehi. This is unbelievably even worse than last week when the bridge was closed for a few hours.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 10, 2021, 03:29:19 PM
Wow, the traffic approaching the I-55 bridge has reached a new level of craziness. I-55 southbound is backed up nearly to Clarkedale, I-40 eastbound to Lehi. This is unbelievably even worse than last week when the bridge was closed for a few hours.

What does US 70 look like?  Is it impossible to get on I-55 in West Memphis? 
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Echostatic on June 10, 2021, 04:21:46 PM
3PM on a thursday and it's looking like this...

(https://i.imgur.com/vMyYcBS.png)
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: RoadWarrior56 on June 10, 2021, 05:40:05 PM
I think if I were facing that kind of congestion as shown in the congestion map, as I was approaching either end of the traffic backup leading to the bridge.  I would just stop somewhere for the night and get up at 3 am, or just turn around and drive back to either Helena or Dyersburg/Hayti and cross there, depending on my final destination.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 10, 2021, 05:50:57 PM
I think if I were facing that kind of congestion as shown in the congestion map, as I was approaching either end of the traffic backup leading to the bridge.  I would just stop somewhere for the night and get up at 3 am, or just turn around and drive back to either Helena or Dyersburg/Hayti and cross there, depending on my final destination.
Someone has to take traffic screenshot at 3 am.
My bet is that backup is somewhat shorter at that time.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on June 10, 2021, 06:14:39 PM
3PM on a thursday and it's looking like this...



I-20 especially eastbound between Terrell and Longview will back up like that when they close one lane for maintenance. 

Ironically, US-80 is not that far away...
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: webny99 on June 10, 2021, 08:52:31 PM
Wow, the traffic approaching the I-55 bridge has reached a new level of craziness. I-55 southbound is backed up nearly to Clarkedale, I-40 eastbound to Lehi. This is unbelievably even worse than last week when the bridge was closed for a few hours.

What does US 70 look like?  Is it impossible to get on I-55 in West Memphis?

It's backed up too, just not as bad, as you can see from Echostatic's screenshot. I'm not sure what's open/closed as far as entrance ramps... but at least some of the entrances are still open judging from the congestion on US 70 and the service road.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: debragga on June 11, 2021, 09:31:20 AM
I think if I were facing that kind of congestion as shown in the congestion map, as I was approaching either end of the traffic backup leading to the bridge.  I would just stop somewhere for the night and get up at 3 am, or just turn around and drive back to either Helena or Dyersburg/Hayti and cross there, depending on my final destination.
Someone has to take traffic screenshot at 3 am.
My bet is that backup is somewhat shorter at that time.

Every time I've looked at the traffic late at night, there's never been any congestion at all, going either direction. I never took a screenshot though, I should do that next time.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 11, 2021, 10:21:46 AM
I think if I were facing that kind of congestion as shown in the congestion map, as I was approaching either end of the traffic backup leading to the bridge.  I would just stop somewhere for the night and get up at 3 am, or just turn around and drive back to either Helena or Dyersburg/Hayti and cross there, depending on my final destination.
Someone has to take traffic screenshot at 3 am.
My bet is that backup is somewhat shorter at that time.

Every time I've looked at the traffic late at night, there's never been any congestion at all, going either direction. I never took a screenshot though, I should do that next time.
There was a significant backup at 7 AM EDT (6 AM Memphis), though.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sparker on June 11, 2021, 08:55:31 PM
I think if I were facing that kind of congestion as shown in the congestion map, as I was approaching either end of the traffic backup leading to the bridge.  I would just stop somewhere for the night and get up at 3 am, or just turn around and drive back to either Helena or Dyersburg/Hayti and cross there, depending on my final destination.
Someone has to take traffic screenshot at 3 am.
My bet is that backup is somewhat shorter at that time.

Every time I've looked at the traffic late at night, there's never been any congestion at all, going either direction. I never took a screenshot though, I should do that next time.
There was a significant backup at 7 AM EDT (6 AM Memphis), though.

That would most likely be due to commuters adjusting their schedules for the additional time required to get across the I-55 bridge; getting out of the house an hour or so ahead of "normal" time for doing so.  Such rescheduling becomes "built in" to commute plans in regions where there is historical and consistent congestion.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Scott5114 on June 12, 2021, 03:03:13 AM
Nothing showing congested at 2:00 am on a Friday night/Saturday morning:
(https://i.imgur.com/zmVzHJ6.png)
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 12, 2021, 07:27:46 AM
Do you think that after the DeSoto Bridge is repaired that traffic will flow more evenly across both bridges?  Will some folks go look I didn't realize there was another convenient crossing?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: rte66man on June 12, 2021, 08:03:16 AM
Newsflash, Avalanchez:  tolls ARE user fees.  You only pay the toll if you use the facility.

If there is a free alternative then I can see it as a user fee.  If there is not a free alternative then it is an extortion fee.

Just about the only toll roads in the US without any sort of free alternative are bridges. Big bridges are expensive. Given your general lack of desire to spend taxpayer money on upgrading/widening/new construction, how else are we supposed to be able to build and maintain those?

Only one of Oklahoma's turnpikes doesn't have a free alternative (Indian Nation). Turner and Will Rogers have OK66, Cherokee has US412 Scenic, Cimarron has US64, Muskogee also has US64, and the H.E. Bailey has US277. All 3 urban pikes have local street choices.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 12, 2021, 10:08:14 AM
Do you think that after the DeSoto Bridge is repaired that traffic will flow more evenly across both bridges?  Will some folks go look I didn't realize there was another convenient crossing?
according to TN traffic counts for 1985- 2018, I-55 and I-40 bridges had about equal traffic counts till 2013.
In 2014 things suddenly change to 35-40% I-40  - 60-65% I-55
I wonder why...
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on June 12, 2021, 11:22:27 AM
Newsflash, Avalanchez:  tolls ARE user fees.  You only pay the toll if you use the facility.

If there is a free alternative then I can see it as a user fee.  If there is not a free alternative then it is an extortion fee.

Just about the only toll roads in the US without any sort of free alternative are bridges. Big bridges are expensive. Given your general lack of desire to spend taxpayer money on upgrading/widening/new construction, how else are we supposed to be able to build and maintain those?

Only one of Oklahoma's turnpikes doesn't have a free alternative (Indian Nation). Turner and Will Rogers have OK66, Cherokee has US412 Scenic, Cimarron has US64, Muskogee also has US64, and the H.E. Bailey has US277. All 3 urban pikes have local street choices.

Yes north of Antlers, the Indian Nation is pretty much the sole route. That said, it is a low use route. If I were guessing, I would guess the segment south of McAlester it is among if not the lowest use rural freeway period.  I don't think the tolls are the issue either.  The traffic pattern basically is from southeast to northwest when the predominance of the traffic goes generally south to north or toward the northeast.  It is some busier north of McAlester, but that is the US-75 traffic going to Tulsa and points north on the US-169 corridor,
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sparker on June 12, 2021, 06:01:19 PM
Newsflash, Avalanchez:  tolls ARE user fees.  You only pay the toll if you use the facility.

If there is a free alternative then I can see it as a user fee.  If there is not a free alternative then it is an extortion fee.

Just about the only toll roads in the US without any sort of free alternative are bridges. Big bridges are expensive. Given your general lack of desire to spend taxpayer money on upgrading/widening/new construction, how else are we supposed to be able to build and maintain those?

Only one of Oklahoma's turnpikes doesn't have a free alternative (Indian Nation). Turner and Will Rogers have OK66, Cherokee has US412 Scenic, Cimarron has US64, Muskogee also has US64, and the H.E. Bailey has US277. All 3 urban pikes have local street choices.

Yes north of Antlers, the Indian Nation is pretty much the sole route. That said, it is a low use route. If I were guessing, I would guess the south of McAlester it is among if not the lowest use rural freeway period.  I don't think the tolls are the issue either.  The traffic pattern basically is from southeast to northwest when the predominance of the traffic goes generally south to north or toward the northeast.  It is some busier north of McAlester, but that is the US-75 traffic going to Tulsa and points north on the US-169 corridor,

I've driven the INT from Henryetta down to Antlers numerous times (lotsa relatives in the Broken Bow/Idabel area); there have been stretches where I haven't seen another vehicle going in my direction either on the horizon or in my rear-view mirror -- it's pretty desolate out there.  It's obvious that at some point someone in SE AR raised enough of a fuss about the lack of connectivity and the southern reaches of the INT were developed as a result.  My observation is that at least half of the SB traffic exits at US 69; NB traffic certainly picks up dramatically north of there as well (being the direct route to and from Tulsa doesn't hurt!).  Don't see the southern part's usage changing much; it would probably take some sort of extension well into TX to kick the traffic flow up -- and AFAIK that isn't on anyone's radar!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: NE2 on June 12, 2021, 06:05:42 PM
Do you think that after the DeSoto Bridge is repaired that traffic will flow more evenly across both bridges?  Will some folks go look I didn't realize there was another convenient crossing?
according to TN traffic counts for 1985- 2018, I-55 and I-40 bridges had about equal traffic counts till 2013.
In 2014 things suddenly change to 35-40% I-40  - 60-65% I-55
I wonder why...
That's when I-40 was being rebuilt at I-240 (west end).
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sparker on June 12, 2021, 08:43:45 PM
Do you think that after the DeSoto Bridge is repaired that traffic will flow more evenly across both bridges?  Will some folks go look I didn't realize there was another convenient crossing?
according to TN traffic counts for 1985- 2018, I-55 and I-40 bridges had about equal traffic counts till 2013.
In 2014 things suddenly change to 35-40% I-40  - 60-65% I-55
I wonder why...
That's when I-40 was being rebuilt at I-240 (west end).

Understandable that most commuters would tend to avoid the construction zone in central Memphis during the reconfiguration of 40/240.  But have there been more recent traffic counts -- pre DeSoto bridge issues, of course -- that have indicated any sort of equalization between the bridges?  Also, as a side issue, are the traffic counts on each bridge broken down between commercial trucks and autos?  Because of the location of the FedEx hub off I-240 east of I-55, one would expect the percentage of trucks using the M&A/I-55 bridge to be significantly higher, regardless of the longstanding Crump negotiation issues. 
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on June 14, 2021, 12:17:38 AM
It looks like Tenn will have pulled a two lane exit to stay on I-55 after crossing into Memphis out of their ass by the end of this week.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sparker on June 14, 2021, 02:03:52 AM
It looks like Tenn will have pulled a two lane exit to stay on I-55 after crossing into Memphis out of their ass by the end of this week.

Hope they washed it off first! :-P Now -- if they can snag a NB flyover from the same source, that would qualify as a real feat!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: abqtraveler on June 14, 2021, 11:28:13 AM
It looks like Tenn will have pulled a two lane exit to stay on I-55 after crossing into Memphis out of their ass by the end of this week.

Hope they washed it off first! :-P Now -- if they can snag a NB flyover from the same source, that would qualify as a real feat!

Not the long-term solution for the I-55/Crump interchange, but it will certainly help move things along until the get the I-40 bridge reopened.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on June 14, 2021, 01:32:38 PM
Could the difference in the usage be that the fuzz is hotter at the chicken coup on the I-55 leg?
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on June 15, 2021, 09:17:54 AM
The interstate shootings are everywhere. The MPD has had patrol cars sitting along every segment of 55/40/240/TN385.

On a sad note I helped tend to a dying girl that was in a wreck on Mt. Moriah. She was doing approx 60 to 70 mph in a Lexus ls350 when someone pulled out in front of her. She was texting and never slowed. By the time the paramedics arrived, she was gone. That is a 40mph zone. Point is...Memphis is a speed crazed madhouse these days. That segment of Mt. Mariah between 240 and Park is constantly used by drag racers. They really need to go in and introduce traffic calming measures. I have had to spend way too much time in Memohis due to my Mother's health issues and the crap I have seenbin 4 weeks time in city surpasses all that I have seen in 30 years of travel elsewhere in the US and Europe and I am someone that will take full advantage of the cushion the Troopers in Arkansas give you.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sprjus4 on June 15, 2021, 11:11:38 AM
Oh, I just assumed the MPD’s constant presence was to enforce the artificially low 55 mph limit that no one follows.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: cjw2001 on June 15, 2021, 01:10:50 PM
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: triplemultiplex on June 15, 2021, 01:41:11 PM
Good find cjw.  That was a very good explanation of what happened from an engineering perspective.
It's one thing to have folks on here who can write in detail about this subject, but a video is so much more accessible and the visual aids were a tremendous help for those with a more 'grade school' understanding of bridge engineering. ;)
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikeTheActuary on June 15, 2021, 07:30:35 PM
On a sad note I helped tend to a dying girl that was in a wreck on Mt. Moriah. She was doing approx 60 to 70 mph in a Lexus ls350 when someone pulled out in front of her. She was texting and never slowed. By the time the paramedics arrived, she was gone. That is a 40mph zone. Point is...Memphis is a speed crazed madhouse these days. That segment of Mt. Mariah between 240 and Park is constantly used by drag racers. They really need to go in and introduce traffic calming measures. I have had to spend way too much time in Memohis due to my Mother's health issues and the crap I have seenbin 4 weeks time in city surpasses all that I have seen in 30 years of travel elsewhere in the US and Europe and I am someone that will take full advantage of the cushion the Troopers in Arkansas give you.

When I was in Memphis a couple of weeks ago, my wife and I had dinner with a soon-to-be-retired MPD colonel (friend of the family).  We compared notes on how driver aggression has changed with the pandemic.   I had to point out that while stupid driving seems to be up throughout North America....well, pre-pandemic in my travels the most aggressve drivers I encountered were found in West Tennessee....but so far post-pandemic the most aggressive drivers I've seen have been in Connecticut (although I've only recently begun traveling).

(At least I-91 hasn't turned into a gunnery range like I-240!)
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Rothman on June 15, 2021, 10:02:45 PM
CT has always been the worst.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on June 15, 2021, 11:28:53 PM
Not to stray too far off thread...but all states have been reporting driver rage incidents have increased during and post-COVID.

I don't think it is limited to just one locale like West Tennessee.

This is also paralleled by the sudden rise in in-flight disruptions and incidents nationally.

Psychologically, most of it can be sourced to the high levels of uncertainty people have had to endure.

That lack of certainty tends to draw down ones capacity for patience over time.

Lack of patience leads too.......
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on June 16, 2021, 03:03:17 PM
U.S. says steel in I-40 bridge prone to crack

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/16/us-says-steel-in-i-40-bridge-prone-to-crack/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers&utm_content=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers+CID_62db35dff35db4c0f3f853b5a4c94004&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=US%20says%20steel%20in%20I-40%20bridge%20prone%20to%20crack
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 16, 2021, 03:30:45 PM
U.S. says steel in I-40 bridge prone to crack

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/16/us-says-steel-in-i-40-bridge-prone-to-crack/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers&utm_content=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers+CID_62db35dff35db4c0f3f853b5a4c94004&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=US%20says%20steel%20in%20I-40%20bridge%20prone%20to%20crack
Not that I am surprised.  Somewhat similar situation in a previous accident of Delaware bridge crack (NJ/PA turnpike):
https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Doing-Business/Reports/Highways/Bridges/20170224%20-%20Closure%20of%20I-276%20Delaware%20River%20Bridge%20Event%20Report.pdf
Quote
Plans called for the use of A-94 silicon steel; however, shop drawings indicate that a U.S. Steel proprietary alloy called Man-Ten was substituted for A-94 during construction.  At this time we cannot find an ASTM reference for Man-Ten.  Spec sheets from US Steel for Man-Ten indicate it is not suitable for spot welding, with weld locations having markedly lower toughness. 
....
Causes of the Fracture:
The FHWA believes it is unlikely that a single or satisfying answer will be determined as to the cause of the sudden fracture.

So... Shit happens!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on June 16, 2021, 03:31:43 PM
U.S. says steel in I-40 bridge prone to crack

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/16/us-says-steel-in-i-40-bridge-prone-to-crack/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers&utm_content=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers+CID_62db35dff35db4c0f3f853b5a4c94004&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=US%20says%20steel%20in%20I-40%20bridge%20prone%20to%20crack

Good write up. This writer actually did some research on the issues with butt welding with T1 steel along with historical data.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on June 16, 2021, 05:13:59 PM
U.S. says steel in I-40 bridge prone to crack

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/16/us-says-steel-in-i-40-bridge-prone-to-crack/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers&utm_content=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers+CID_62db35dff35db4c0f3f853b5a4c94004&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=US%20says%20steel%20in%20I-40%20bridge%20prone%20to%20crack

Good write up. This writer actually did some research on the issues with butt welding with T1 steel along with historical data.

 The bottom line is truss type bridges use as little welding as possible.  When Caltrava built the Hunt Bridge in Dallas, he worried so much about the welding that he brought welders in from Spain.  (As an aside, the Dallas Bridges  are actually deck bridges with decorative cable stays.  On the newer McDermott bridge, the cable portion has been a real problem. ) 

Back to welding bridge members, it is a tricky position. Most of the joints are secured using plates that span the joint and either bolts or rivets to secure them together. I have to imagine that these 900' beams were welded. Was this break at or adjacent to a weld? One would think.  I still wonder where the vertical motion that caused this break came from in an element that primarily has horizontal function.

Then again... Stuff happens.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 16, 2021, 05:55:03 PM
U.S. says steel in I-40 bridge prone to crack

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/16/us-says-steel-in-i-40-bridge-prone-to-crack/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers&utm_content=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers+CID_62db35dff35db4c0f3f853b5a4c94004&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=US%20says%20steel%20in%20I-40%20bridge%20prone%20to%20crack

Good write up. This writer actually did some research on the issues with butt welding with T1 steel along with historical data.

Yes, but it looks like " Silicon Steel" ASTM A867 is not significantly better, It was an older heavier steel alloy. I would guess that they  selected the Man-ten to reduce weight.  The bottom line is truss type bridges use as little welding as possible.  When Caltrava built the Hunt Bridge in Dallas, he worried so much about the welding that he brought welders in from Spain.  (As an aside, the Dallas Bridges  are actually deck bridges with decorative cable stays.  On the newer McDermott bridge, the cable portion has been a real problem. ) 

Back to welding bridge members, it is a tricky position. Most of the joints are secured using plates that span the joint and either bolts or rivets to secure them together. I have to imagine that these 900' beams were welded. Was this break at or adjacent to a weld? One would think.  I still wonder where the vertical motion that caused this break came from in an element that primarily has horizontal function.

Then again... Stuff happens.
Just to clarify - Man-ten was in a different bridge, not I-40. Another fun fact, fragile strength of that steel dropped like a rock below water freezing temperature.
To me, these are all examples of how great and long-lasting structures could be built in imperfect world, and how things are just taken for granted.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: abqtraveler on June 17, 2021, 11:11:00 AM
U.S. says steel in I-40 bridge prone to crack

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/16/us-says-steel-in-i-40-bridge-prone-to-crack/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers&utm_content=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers+CID_62db35dff35db4c0f3f853b5a4c94004&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=US%20says%20steel%20in%20I-40%20bridge%20prone%20to%20crack

Good write up. This writer actually did some research on the issues with butt welding with T1 steel along with historical data.

 The bottom line is truss type bridges use as little welding as possible.  When Caltrava built the Hunt Bridge in Dallas, he worried so much about the welding that he brought welders in from Spain.  (As an aside, the Dallas Bridges  are actually deck bridges with decorative cable stays.  On the newer McDermott bridge, the cable portion has been a real problem. ) 

Back to welding bridge members, it is a tricky position. Most of the joints are secured using plates that span the joint and either bolts or rivets to secure them together. I have to imagine that these 900' beams were welded. Was this break at or adjacent to a weld? One would think.  I still wonder where the vertical motion that caused this break came from in an element that primarily has horizontal function.

Then again... Stuff happens.

Welds create their own set of problems in that they are vulnerable to failure during periods of extreme thermal expansion and contraction. Point in fact, about 20 years ago a 130-foot section of the Hoan bridge in Milwaukee was imploded and rebuilt when welded joints in two of three girders that supported the northbound lanes failed during a episode of heavy snow and subzero temperatures. In addition to rebuilding the failed section, crews also extensively retrofitted the remainder of the Hoan Bridge to address the concerns with the welded joints to avoid a subsequent structural failure and extend the bridge's service life.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: mvak36 on June 22, 2021, 01:02:06 AM
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on June 23, 2021, 12:49:57 AM

Can't wait to read the metallurgical analysis of the fracture.  They will be able to date the fracture by the levels of oxidation.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: kalvado on June 23, 2021, 04:32:33 AM

Can't wait to read the metallurgical analysis of the fracture.  They will be able to date the fracture by the levels of oxidation.
Probably not, oxidation would be somewhat self-limiting and non-uniform.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on June 23, 2021, 11:22:15 AM

Can't wait to read the metallurgical analysis of the fracture.  They will be able to date the fracture by the levels of oxidation.
Probably not, oxidation would be somewhat self-limiting and non-uniform.

In 1939, the Commerce Department (predecessor to the FHA) produced a whitepaper explaining how to age and analyze oxidation of the steel used in bridges.

There is even a calculation based on variables that can be solved for time.

With today's spectrographic and micrographic technology, i would think it would be even easier now to pull the data.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on June 23, 2021, 11:51:01 AM
Even the local lefty rag The Memphis Flyer is calling for a third bridge now as long as it can also handle high speed rail one day.

Their editorial also pointed out how silly TDOT's desire to shutdown the old bridge was giving the issues this has shown and how if this problem was caught when it should have, it may have overlapped with the closure.

It is clear they favor a bridge that ties in with the future I-69 corridor in North Memphis.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Road Hog on June 23, 2021, 08:24:39 PM

Can't wait to read the metallurgical analysis of the fracture.  They will be able to date the fracture by the levels of oxidation.
Maybe so, but there is photographic evidence of the fracture that can be interpolated as well.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on June 30, 2021, 11:56:41 AM
Work is progressing nicely. The last of the slabs are being placed, but the bolting and post tensioning will take a while. Even then reopening is subject to the outcome of the thorough inspection that is being conducted on the rest of the bridge. Remediation of other problems might individually take a similar time to what this repair has taken.

https://dailymemphian.com/section/metro/article/22700/hernando-desoto-bridge-finald-slab-in-lace#/questions
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: US71 on July 07, 2021, 11:29:41 AM
https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2021/jul/07/update-given-on-i-40-bridge-effort/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_nwademgaz

No more failures found, but several sections need steel plating.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on July 07, 2021, 07:27:21 PM
I hope they go back and improve that temp two lane exit transition from the old bridge to viaduct portion of I-55 on the Memphis side. That should have been done decades ago. It is stillnpoorly signed and most all were still trying g to get to the right lane over the bridge. Just memory reflex I guess.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sparker on July 08, 2021, 06:02:15 AM
I hope they go back and improve that temp two lane exit transition from the old bridge to viaduct portion of I-55 on the Memphis side. That should have been done decades ago. It is stillnpoorly signed and most all were still trying g to get to the right lane over the bridge. Just memory reflex I guess.

I remember the first time I had to do that; had to fight what seemed to be a convoy of semis just to get to the right lane before the bridge.  Barring a replacement of the structure, an expansion of the EB>SB ramp -- or even a full rebuild of the 55/Crump interchange per published plans -- will still have little if any effect on the traffic patterns essentially mandated by the facility's limitations.  It's like cleaning the mesh debris trap in a faucet if the pipes feeding it are clogged -- won't accomplish much!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on July 08, 2021, 10:49:04 AM
I hope they go back and improve that temp two lane exit transition from the old bridge to viaduct portion of I-55 on the Memphis side. That should have been done decades ago. It is stillnpoorly signed and most all were still trying g to get to the right lane over the bridge. Just memory reflex I guess.

There is a plan for a complete rebuild of the intersection. It will take a couple of years, but after this mess, I figure they do this straight away unless they make their priority a new river crossing on either end of the city.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: MikieTimT on July 08, 2021, 05:28:05 PM
I hope they go back and improve that temp two lane exit transition from the old bridge to viaduct portion of I-55 on the Memphis side. That should have been done decades ago. It is stillnpoorly signed and most all were still trying g to get to the right lane over the bridge. Just memory reflex I guess.

There is a plan for a complete rebuild of the intersection. It will take a couple of years, but after this mess, I figure they do this straight away unless they make their priority a new river crossing on either end of the city.

Hopefully this has been enough of a black eye for TDOT that it finally gets the attention it's been needing FOREVER!
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Avalanchez71 on July 09, 2021, 07:55:55 AM
I hope they go back and improve that temp two lane exit transition from the old bridge to viaduct portion of I-55 on the Memphis side. That should have been done decades ago. It is stillnpoorly signed and most all were still trying g to get to the right lane over the bridge. Just memory reflex I guess.

There is a plan for a complete rebuild of the intersection. It will take a couple of years, but after this mess, I figure they do this straight away unless they make their priority a new river crossing on either end of the city.

Hopefully this has been enough of a black eye for TDOT that it finally gets the attention it's been needing FOREVER!

The intersection/interchange has served a useful function for many years and is a characteristic of the needs of the community. 

Building a new bridge has a major impact to shipping.  The skippers will have to learn how to pilot around said bridge.  This creates another hazard to avoid.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on July 09, 2021, 08:16:32 AM
I hope they go back and improve that temp two lane exit transition from the old bridge to viaduct portion of I-55 on the Memphis side. That should have been done decades ago. It is stillnpoorly signed and most all were still trying g to get to the right lane over the bridge. Just memory reflex I guess.

There is a plan for a complete rebuild of the intersection. It will take a couple of years, but after this mess, I figure they do this straight away unless they make their priority a new river crossing on either end of the city.

Hopefully this has been enough of a black eye for TDOT that it finally gets the attention it's been needing FOREVER!

The intersection/interchange has served a useful function for many years and is a characteristic of the needs of the community. 

Building a new bridge has a major impact to shipping.  The skippers will have to learn how to pilot around said bridge.  This creates another hazard to avoid.

Yes a new bridge will create a new challenge for river traffic. If it is properly designed and placed in the river it should be minimal.
The I-55 EH Crump Blvd intersection is a leftover from a time before the HDB. It is the epitome of the neglect all of Memphis has gotten from Nashville. As far as that goes, Nashville itself has places where the frugality of the Tennessee Legislature shows up as well. When the Crump intersection was built, this routing of I-55 was temporary. I-55 was going to be routed across the HDB and follow the Riverfront Expressway which was thankfully never built.  Even outside the temporary status, US-61/ I-55 was secondary. The greater E/W traffic and any traffic heading north followed Crump at least to 3rd street if not all the way to mid-town.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: froggie on July 09, 2021, 09:56:48 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71
Building a new bridge has a major impact to shipping.  The skippers will have to learn how to pilot around said bridge.  This creates another hazard to avoid.

The construction of the bridge itself has an impact, but not as large as you may think.  Design and construction of major waterway bridges takes into account the river channels and river traffic.  A number of locations where this has been done in recent years:  St. Francisville LA, the Quad Cities, and St. Paul MN to name a few.  Several other examples along the Mississippi alone.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on July 09, 2021, 11:14:55 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71
Building a new bridge has a major impact to shipping.  The skippers will have to learn how to pilot around said bridge.  This creates another hazard to avoid.

The construction of the bridge itself has an impact, but not as large as you may think.  Design and construction of major waterway bridges takes into account the river channels and river traffic.  A number of locations where this has been done in recent years:  St. Francisville LA, the Quad Cities, and St. Paul MN to name a few.  Several other examples along the Mississippi alone.

The more poignant example would be Greenville MS (US-82). A bridge that was a real impediment to river traffic was replaced by one that was  better positioned for river traffic.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 09, 2021, 01:43:09 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71
Building a new bridge has a major impact to shipping.  The skippers will have to learn how to pilot around said bridge.  This creates another hazard to avoid.

The construction of the bridge itself has an impact, but not as large as you may think.  Design and construction of major waterway bridges takes into account the river channels and river traffic.  A number of locations where this has been done in recent years:  St. Francisville LA, the Quad Cities, and St. Paul MN to name a few.  Several other examples along the Mississippi alone.

The more poignant example would be Greenville MS (US-82). A bridge that was a real impediment to river traffic was replaced by one that was  better positioned for river traffic.

The inverse being the Big Bayou Cannot Bridge that was built to be a swivel bridge but was never fitted with the mechanics for it to swivel because the bayou was deemed unnavigable.  So, a bridge built with river navigation in mind that never had any river traffic. 
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Wayward Memphian on July 09, 2021, 02:30:50 PM
I hope they go back and improve that temp two lane exit transition from the old bridge to viaduct portion of I-55 on the Memphis side. That should have been done decades ago. It is stillnpoorly signed and most all were still trying g to get to the right lane over the bridge. Just memory reflex I guess.

There is a plan for a complete rebuild of the intersection. It will take a couple of years, but after this mess, I figure they do this straight away unless they make their priority a new river crossing on either end of the city.

If that plane still calls for a shutdown of the bridge, you can forget it. No one wants that given the experience with this. Improve the temporary fix to permanent status and take the reduction to a single lane exit for I-55 permanently out of the equation.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sparker on July 09, 2021, 05:35:59 PM
I hope they go back and improve that temp two lane exit transition from the old bridge to viaduct portion of I-55 on the Memphis side. That should have been done decades ago. It is stillnpoorly signed and most all were still trying g to get to the right lane over the bridge. Just memory reflex I guess.

There is a plan for a complete rebuild of the intersection. It will take a couple of years, but after this mess, I figure they do this straight away unless they make their priority a new river crossing on either end of the city.

If that plane still calls for a shutdown of the bridge, you can forget it. No one wants that given the experience with this. Improve the temporary fix to permanent status and take the reduction to a single lane exit for I-55 permanently out of the equation.

Question: has anyone (meaning TDOT and/or ADOT) considered a parallel bridge to the present I-55 through truss -- it could (conceivably) be built adjacent and then used for both directions while the current bridge is revamped for 3 lanes in one direction, eliminating the need for a total bridge shutdown.  Been done elsewhere with reasonable success and could be worked into the Crump modification as necessary.   
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: Tomahawkin on July 09, 2021, 08:00:18 PM
A new bridge over the Mississippi would probably be made resistant to Floods as well as earthquake proof. It might take 8 years to build? IMO it should be built to handle 10 lanes total. Therefore a accident on the bridge doesn't shut down the whole interstare
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sparker on July 09, 2021, 09:27:23 PM
A new bridge over the Mississippi would probably be made resistant to Floods as well as earthquake proof. It might take 8 years to build? IMO it should be built to handle 10 lanes total. Therefore a accident on the bridge doesn't shut down the whole interstare

10 total lanes might be asking too much; it's probably not possible to reconfigure the existing I-55 bridge for anything exceeding three 12-foot lanes with "bridge-acceptable" shoulders.  Perhaps a 2nd/parallel bridge could have up to 5 lanes, with maybe one or two reversible for peak traffic. 
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: froggie on July 10, 2021, 10:25:41 AM
I hope they go back and improve that temp two lane exit transition from the old bridge to viaduct portion of I-55 on the Memphis side. That should have been done decades ago. It is stillnpoorly signed and most all were still trying g to get to the right lane over the bridge. Just memory reflex I guess.

There is a plan for a complete rebuild of the intersection. It will take a couple of years, but after this mess, I figure they do this straight away unless they make their priority a new river crossing on either end of the city.

If that plane still calls for a shutdown of the bridge, you can forget it. No one wants that given the experience with this. Improve the temporary fix to permanent status and take the reduction to a single lane exit for I-55 permanently out of the equation.

Question: has anyone (meaning TDOT and/or ADOT) considered a parallel bridge to the present I-55 through truss -- it could (conceivably) be built adjacent and then used for both directions while the current bridge is revamped for 3 lanes in one direction, eliminating the need for a total bridge shutdown.  Been done elsewhere with reasonable success and could be worked into the Crump modification as necessary.   

The 2006 study included the existing I-55 bridge location as a potential corridor, but dropped it in the first round of corridor screening.  The reasons why it was dropped are unclear, but I believe contributing factors were that a parallel bridge to the north would be too close to the Frisco bridge, while a parallel bridge to the south would have parkland impacts.  The study did note that widening the existing I-55 bridge was deemed infeasible due to it's type of construction.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on July 12, 2021, 09:57:13 AM
Caltrans was able to build a new Bay Bridge by putting the new one right next to the old one and building a temporary shoofly that took traffic over to the old span while the approaches were reconstructed. Once the new approaches were connected to the new span, the traffic was moved back over and the shoofly demolished.

(https://www.lusas.com/case/bridge/images/sfobb_new_old_credit_caltrans_775.jpg)

Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: bwana39 on July 12, 2021, 10:45:41 AM
Caltrans was able to build a new Bay Bridge by putting the new one right next to the old one and building a temporary shoofly that took traffic over to the old span while the approaches were reconstructed. Once the new approaches were connected to the new span, the traffic was moved back over and the shoofly demolished.


There were far more limiting factors in place for the Bay Bridge. A new routing would in Memphis would be less expensive, leave the existing bridge in place for local traffic, and simplify the routing for I-55. 

The Bay Bridge had a MUST exit point on the San Francisco side. It had to follow the same (basic) pattern through Yerba Buena island. These restrictions are not set in stone in Memphis or Northern  Mississippi.  Just reroute I-55  to cross the river farther south on a new easier routing.
Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: edwaleni on July 12, 2021, 11:28:54 AM
Caltrans was able to build a new Bay Bridge by putting the new one right next to the old one and building a temporary shoofly that took traffic over to the old span while the approaches were reconstructed. Once the new approaches were connected to the new span, the traffic was moved back over and the shoofly demolished.


There were far more limiting factors in place for the Bay Bridge. A new routing would in Memphis would be less expensive, leave the existing bridge in place for local traffic, and simplify the routing for I-55. 

The Bay Bridge had a MUST exit point on the San Francisco side. It had to follow the same (basic) pattern through Yerba Buena island. These restrictions are not set in stone in Memphis or Northern Mississippi.

I agree on the Arkansas side of the river. It is the Memphis side that has a constrained exit point due to Crump Park.

TNDOT could do what Illinois did with the Musial/Veterans Bridge in St Louis, simply move I-70 upstream or in this case move I-55 downstream using the Incline Bayou over Jack Carley Causeway. The Memphis Port Commission already owns most of this land today.

This would return the Ark-Mem Bridge back to its original intent, a local traffic carry over for Crump Boulevard.

Title: Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
Post by: sparker on July 13, 2021, 06:35:35 AM
Caltrans was able to build a new Bay Bridge by putting the new one right next to the old one and building a temporary shoofly that took traffic over to the old span while the approaches were reconstructed. Once the new approaches were connected to the new span, the traffic was moved back over and the shoofly demolished.


There were far more limiting factors in place for the Bay Bridge. A new routing would in Memphis would be less expensive, leave the existing bridge in place for local traffic, and simplify the routing for I-55. 

The Bay Bridge had a MUST exit point on the San Francisco side. It had to follow the same (basic) pattern through Yerba Buena island. These restrictions are not set in stone in Memphis or Northern Mississippi.

I agree on the Arkansas side of the river. It is the Memphis side that has a constrained exit point due to Crump Park.

TNDOT could do what Illinois did with the Musial/Veterans Bridge in St Louis, simply move I-70 upstream or in this case move I-55 downstream using the Incline Bayou over Jack Carley Causeway. The Memphis Port Commission already owns most of this land today.

This would return the Ark-Mem Bridge back to its original intent, a local traffic carry over for Crump Boulevard.



And the "sign salad" of the multiple US highways crossing the river there could once again become the bridge's mainstays once I-55 is elsewhere.  That was always an interesting and often fun aspect of Memphis' road network -- following the US highways across town, even with convoluted routings!