Ticket turnpikes

[wxfree]

I looked at GSV at the south ends of the Kansas and New Jersey Turnpikes.  If you don't have the appropriate ETC pass, you have to stop and get a ticket.  If you go through a toll booth without a ticket, you are required to pay the toll that would be due if you'd driven from the beginning of the turnpike to that point.  If you entered at some point after the beginning, the ticket will save you money, but if you actually drove to that point from the beginning, then the ticket doesn't save you anything.  Stopping to get a ticket is an inconvenience and inefficiency without any benefit.  Why, then, are you required to do it?

Perhaps having a list of tolls due at each exit point is useful.  So perhaps having the option to stop and get a toll schedule at the entrance point is worthwhile.  But this should not warrant requiring all non-pass traffic to stop for a ticket that many drivers don't want or benefit from.  Is there a reason for this that I'm not thinking of?

[pianocello]

The interchanges on the Kansas and New Jersey Turnpikes, as well as almost all other ticket-based tollways, are trumpets, and were built that way to minimize the amount of toll plazas needed. The reason that tickets are needed from the beginning are so that the toll collectors (or computers) at those interchanges know what direction you're coming from so they can charge you accordingly.

[wxfree]

The interchanges on the Kansas and New Jersey Turnpikes, as well as almost all other ticket-based tollways, are trumpets, and were built that way to minimize the amount of toll plazas needed. The reason that tickets are needed from the beginning are so that the toll collectors (or computers) at those interchanges know what direction you're coming from so they can charge you accordingly.

Thank you for that information.  I knew of that circumstance, but didn't think of it when considering my question.

[Mr. Matté]

Stopping to get a ticket is an inconvenience and inefficiency without any benefit.  Why, then, are you required to do it?

If you blow through the EZPass lanes at Exit 1 on the NJ Turnpike just so you don't have to give back a ticket at Exit 18E/W, you'll get a fine especially if you do it a lot of times.

[roadman65]

I am confused here.  Why would you get a fine if you have EZ Pass.  Even if your transponder fails, you would be able to prove to them that you have it, and later get the fine revoked.

Remember, the computer tells the system where you get on and OFF, so it calculates the required toll.  Lets say you get on at Exit 4 and go north to Exit 7.  The Electronic Scanner that is at the entry lane of 4 registers that you entered the turnpike, so when you pass through the toll lane at 7 it registers that you left the pike there.  No fine will be issued to you there or it shouldn't at least unless your transponder malfunctions.

I have never seen people want to actually stop over free moving, even on the coin drops.  Many drivers would toss the coin in while moving and not wait for the light to turn green for years.  I doubt that someone will want to do it the hard way even for this fear unless their pretty paranoid.

[jeffandnicole]

I looked at GSV at the south ends of the Kansas and New Jersey Turnpikes.  If you don't have the appropriate ETC pass, you have to stop and get a ticket.  If you go through a toll booth without a ticket, you are required to pay the toll that would be due if you'd driven from the beginning of the turnpike to that point.  If you entered at some point after the beginning, the ticket will save you money, but if you actually drove to that point from the beginning, then the ticket doesn't save you anything.  Stopping to get a ticket is an inconvenience and inefficiency without any benefit.  Why, then, are you required to do it?

The main reason: It's the law. These Turnpikes are ticketed systems, in which a driver is required to take a ticket. 

Yes, you are correct in that when you get to a certain point, the ticket doesn't matter because you're paying the max toll anyway.  This only applies if you enter the Turnpike from the starting point on either end.  Of course, if you find yourself needing to exit the turnpike earlier, then you're stuck paying the max fare from the opposite end.

In the grand scheme of things, it's a minor inconvenience: There's more inefficiencies at traffic lights that remain red longer than needed, for example.  And most drivers will suffer thru that several times a day, rather than once (maybe twice) a day for the Turnpike.  And if the driver has to deal with slowing down at toll plazas to get a ticket nearly every day, then the driver can just get an EZ Pass.

Perhaps having a list of tolls due at each exit point is useful.  So perhaps having the option to stop and get a toll schedule at the entrance point is worthwhile.  But this should not warrant requiring all non-pass traffic to stop for a ticket that many drivers don't want or benefit from.  Is there a reason for this that I'm not thinking of?

Using the NJ Turnpike as an example again, good luck trying to find a way to print a sign that can be read at 65 - 75 mph listing 26 different exits, their route numbers, and destination cities with the toll rates.  If we do this for all classes of vehicles, then add about 7 columns of amounts to the sign.  And even if such a sign existed, people would slow down to try to comprehend it, causing traffic congestion anyway for everyone.

Stopping to get a ticket is an inconvenience and inefficiency without any benefit.  Why, then, are you required to do it?

If you blow through the EZPass lanes at Exit 1 on the NJ Turnpike just so you don't have to give back a ticket at Exit 18E/W, you'll get a fine especially if you do it a lot of times.

No you won't.  There are no cameras on entry.  On exit, if someone doesn't have a ticket, they simply process a substitute ticket for the max toll.  No info is kept on the vehicle in this case.

I am confused here.  Why would you get a fine if you have EZ Pass.  Even if your transponder fails, you would be able to prove to them that you have it, and later get the fine revoked.

The topic is in regard to cash payers taking or not taking a ticket.  Mr. Matte was referring to going thru an EZ Pass lane on entry without an EZ Pass because he's just going to pay the maximum fare in cash on exit anyway.

[Brandon]

Stopping to get a ticket is an inconvenience and inefficiency without any benefit.  Why, then, are you required to do it?

If you blow through the EZPass lanes at Exit 1 on the NJ Turnpike just so you don't have to give back a ticket at Exit 18E/W, you'll get a fine especially if you do it a lot of times.

No you won't.  There are no cameras on entry.  On exit, if someone doesn't have a ticket, they simply process a substitute ticket for the max toll.  No info is kept on the vehicle in this case.

Why not?  Would not cameras upon both entry and exit be a logical thing to do?  I know that on barrier systems, such as the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) tollways, every toll plaza has a camera, and should someone go through the I-Pass lanes without an I-Pass (or EZ Pass), he/she has 7 days to pay the cash rate without a fine.

[jeffandnicole]

On closed-ticket systems such as the NJ Turnpike, you get a ticket on entry, then on exit you surrender that ticket and pay the cash toll.  Alternatively, you can use EZ Pass, and it records when you enter, and when you exit.

If you go thru an EZ Pass lane without an EZ Pass on entry, when you get to the exit booth, you simply are told to pay the maximum fare.  Even if there were cameras on entry, the toll booth operator wouldn't have access to the video to view the person entering thru the EZ Pass lane.

If you have an EZ Pass and its not read on entry but is read on exit, the system will alert the service center that there was only one read on the transponder.  The EZ Pass service center is supposed to review your account to see if you have a consistent pattern of entry and exit, and if you do, they'll manually input your entry plaza as that plaza.  If you're not normally using the Turnpike, or your history varies, then they'll charge you the maximum toll based on the exiting plaza.  Thus, it still makes the entering cameras not needed, since they'll do one of these two things.  If they guess wrong, the transponder holder can call EZ Pass and try to get it sorted out.

If the EZ Pass isn't read on exit, or is read on entry but not on exit, then the cameras there will alert the service center as to your exiting, and they'll review your account or charge you the max toll to that toll plaza, as mentioned above.

From my observations, if the EZ Pass isn't read, it's usually because the transponder isn't mounted properly.  I've seen people wait until they are at the display screen at the end of the lane to hold up the EZ Pass, thinking that screen is what 'reads' the EZ Pass.  A properly mounted transponder rarely is misread.

The Garden State Parkway, on the other hand, is a barrier system like the ISTHA, and they do have cameras at all plazas, in all toll lanes.

[Mr. Matté]

Stopping to get a ticket is an inconvenience and inefficiency without any benefit.  Why, then, are you required to do it?

If you blow through the EZPass lanes at Exit 1 on the NJ Turnpike just so you don't have to give back a ticket at Exit 18E/W, you'll get a fine especially if you do it a lot of times.

No you won't.  There are no cameras on entry.  On exit, if someone doesn't have a ticket, they simply process a substitute ticket for the max toll.  No info is kept on the vehicle in this case.

I am confused here.  Why would you get a fine if you have EZ Pass.  Even if your transponder fails, you would be able to prove to them that you have it, and later get the fine revoked.

The topic is in regard to cash payers taking or not taking a ticket.  Mr. Matte was referring to going thru an EZ Pass lane on entry without an EZ Pass because he's just going to pay the maximum fare in cash on exit anyway.

Well I stand corrected on the camera thing; it's still a really dumb idea since at most, you're only saving a minute or two at most on a 118-mile trip anyway. Two question for you though since you were (are?) involved in the toll taking process: When a driver gets to the booth and says he lost his ticket, are there any extra processes you have to go through, like collect any information, call the office, etc? If yes, then the whole efficiency thing is out too since if you just hand in an exit 1 ticket at exit 18 and pay the required toll immediately (another thing, you know what your toll is when you drive the length when you take the ticket, if you do it the OP's way, the toll taker has to tell you the max. toll and then you have to fumble around more for the spare nickels in your dash). Two, I think cops will occasionally sit downstream of the EZPass lanes (or exact change lanes for the Parkway) and if there's any alarm/flashing red light, the cop will immediately pull over the toll evader. Do/could cops do that at Turnpike entry points as well?

[cl94]

Stopping to get a ticket is an inconvenience and inefficiency without any benefit.  Why, then, are you required to do it?

If you blow through the EZPass lanes at Exit 1 on the NJ Turnpike just so you don't have to give back a ticket at Exit 18E/W, you'll get a fine especially if you do it a lot of times.

No you won't.  There are no cameras on entry.  On exit, if someone doesn't have a ticket, they simply process a substitute ticket for the max toll.  No info is kept on the vehicle in this case.

I am confused here.  Why would you get a fine if you have EZ Pass.  Even if your transponder fails, you would be able to prove to them that you have it, and later get the fine revoked.

The topic is in regard to cash payers taking or not taking a ticket.  Mr. Matte was referring to going thru an EZ Pass lane on entry without an EZ Pass because he's just going to pay the maximum fare in cash on exit anyway.

Well I stand corrected on the camera thing; it's still a really dumb idea since at most, you're only saving a minute or two at most on a 118-mile trip anyway. Two question for you though since you were (are?) involved in the toll taking process: When a driver gets to the booth and says he lost his ticket, are there any extra processes you have to go through, like collect any information, call the office, etc? If yes, then the whole efficiency thing is out too since if you just hand in an exit 1 ticket at exit 18 and pay the required toll immediately (another thing, you know what your toll is when you drive the length when you take the ticket, if you do it the OP's way, the toll taker has to tell you the max. toll and then you have to fumble around more for the spare nickels in your dash). Two, I think cops will occasionally sit downstream of the EZPass lanes (or exact change lanes for the Parkway) and if there's any alarm/flashing red light, the cop will immediately pull over the toll evader. Do/could cops do that at Turnpike entry points as well?

I don't know how things work in NJ, but in NY, I've seen cops sit immediately after the toll booths looking for E-ZPasses as vehicles leave restricted toll lanes. On more than one occasion, I've seen them pull someone over for going through without one, both on entry and exit/at barrier tolls.

Of course, this doesn't happen at TBTA crossings, as all lanes are gated.

[cpzilliacus]

Then there are the "virtual" ticket systems, which are becoming somewhat common on toll roads with all-electronic (no cash) toll collection.  I believe Ontario's Highway 407 may have been the very first to implement such a system (opened in the 1990's).

Even though motorists do not get a ticket on entry, toll is computed as if a ticket system was in use.

[1995hoo]

Whenever I've seen cops located after E-ZPass lanes, they're normally looking to nail speeders.

[Scott5114]

You could also do something like Oklahoma, where you get a ticket and pay full fare at the midpoint of the turnpike, and then you are refunded when you exit before the terminus.

[cl94]

You could also do something like Oklahoma, where you get a ticket and pay full fare at the midpoint of the turnpike, and then you are refunded when you exit before the terminus.

Who the hell thought of that? Seems like a bit of a deterrent for people crossing the barrier but going well under the full distance.

[jeffandnicole]

Stopping to get a ticket is an inconvenience and inefficiency without any benefit.  Why, then, are you required to do it?

If you blow through the EZPass lanes at Exit 1 on the NJ Turnpike just so you don't have to give back a ticket at Exit 18E/W, you'll get a fine especially if you do it a lot of times.

No you won't.  There are no cameras on entry.  On exit, if someone doesn't have a ticket, they simply process a substitute ticket for the max toll.  No info is kept on the vehicle in this case.

I am confused here.  Why would you get a fine if you have EZ Pass.  Even if your transponder fails, you would be able to prove to them that you have it, and later get the fine revoked.

The topic is in regard to cash payers taking or not taking a ticket.  Mr. Matte was referring to going thru an EZ Pass lane on entry without an EZ Pass because he's just going to pay the maximum fare in cash on exit anyway.

Well I stand corrected on the camera thing; it's still a really dumb idea since at most, you're only saving a minute or two at most on a 118-mile trip anyway. Two question for you though since you were (are?) involved in the toll taking process: When a driver gets to the booth and says he lost his ticket, are there any extra processes you have to go through, like collect any information, call the office, etc?

Nope.  (Were, btw)  Just hit a key or two on the machine, process it as a lost ticket (I think we had separate tickets to run thru the machine for 'lost tickets', and collect the max fare. 

If yes, then the whole efficiency thing is out too since if you just hand in an exit 1 ticket at exit 18 and pay the required toll immediately (another thing, you know what your toll is when you drive the length when you take the ticket, if you do it the OP's way, the toll taker has to tell you the max. toll and then you have to fumble around more for the spare nickels in your dash).

Most drivers that don't normally drive the Turnpike - which are a lot of your weekend travelers - have no clue how to read the ticket anyway.

Two, I think cops will occasionally sit downstream of the EZPass lanes (or exact change lanes for the Parkway) and if there's any alarm/flashing red light, the cop will immediately pull over the toll evader. Do/could cops do that at Turnpike entry points as well?

The turnpike doesn't use red/flashing lights on their EZ Pass lanes, and cops don't actively monitor the lanes for toll evaders.  Everything is handled thru the EZ Pass center, which will mail out violation notices.   They are definitely not concerned about the entry lanes, because the only thing one may do wrong there is go thru a wrong lane.  They haven't evaded a toll.

I've seen cops around toll plazas, but they normally appear to be doing random truck inspections.  I've seen a cop or two along the cones as I went thru the EZ Pass lanes at speed quite a bit above the limit, but they've never looked at me.  I guess someone would have to admit they were pulled over for speeding thru an EZ Pass lane to know if they do actually look for speeders.

[dfwmapper]

You could also do something like Oklahoma, where you get a ticket and pay full fare at the midpoint of the turnpike, and then you are refunded when you exit before the terminus.

Who the hell thought of that? Seems like a bit of a deterrent for people crossing the barrier but going well under the full distance.

It's only on the Turner (OKC-Tulsa) and Will Rogers (Tulsa-Missouri) Turnpikes (the section between them within Tulsa is free). It actually makes a lot of sense, because the vast majority of traffic is going the entire distance of whichever turnpike they're on. Those people only have to stop once, at the central barrier, rather than at both the entrance and exit. The majority of people not traveling the entire distance are still going to either start or end at one of the endpoints, meaning one or two stops.

[mrsman]

The answer as to why there are ticket machines at enrty was already mentioned with regard to the trumpet interchanges.

Yet, this brings forth another possibility.  Should there be an option for no ticket for those who will go all the way end to end?

If you have no ticket, you will pay maximum anyway, so maybe there should be a ticket bypass option for those who are willing to pay the maximum, especially if you are going end to end.

Yet, in my recollection, the delay on getting a ticket was small compared to the delay in paying the toll at the end and it was no big deal.  And for those who may intend to go end to end, but then leave the turnpike early to stop off along the way to reach a non-turnpike business (your kid must have that Happy Meal but at the plaza they only had Pizza Hut), we don't want them to pay a higher toll than necessary, so everyone gets a ticket.

A bigger annoyance is when one turnpike ends, pay toll, cross state line, and collect a new ticket.  (I believe it's this way at the IN/OH border.)  It would be better to have the toll takers give customers a ticket for the next turnpike and save an unnecessary stop.

With electronic tolling, though, fewer and fewer people are going to face these types of toll booths in the future.

[cl94]

The answer as to why there are ticket machines at enrty was already mentioned with regard to the trumpet interchanges.

Yet, this brings forth another possibility.  Should there be an option for no ticket for those who will go all the way end to end?

If you have no ticket, you will pay maximum anyway, so maybe there should be a ticket bypass option for those who are willing to pay the maximum, especially if you are going end to end.

Yet, in my recollection, the delay on getting a ticket was small compared to the delay in paying the toll at the end and it was no big deal.  And for those who may intend to go end to end, but then leave the turnpike early to stop off along the way to reach a non-turnpike business (your kid must have that Happy Meal but at the plaza they only had Pizza Hut), we don't want them to pay a higher toll than necessary, so everyone gets a ticket.

A bigger annoyance is when one turnpike ends, pay toll, cross state line, and collect a new ticket.  (I believe it's this way at the IN/OH border.)  It would be better to have the toll takers give customers a ticket for the next turnpike and save an unnecessary stop.

With electronic tolling, though, fewer and fewer people are going to face these types of toll booths in the future.

Along with NY/MA and OH/PA if heading east (hand in ticket/pay toll and then pay a barrier toll a few miles later).

And you're right about this stuff disappearing, especially as systems transition to all-AET. PA and MA will be making the transition soon, with NY to follow.

[cpzilliacus]

Whenever I've seen cops located after E-ZPass lanes, they're normally looking to nail speeders.

Not sure what you mean by E-ZPass lanes. 

Are you talking about managed and tolled lanes like we usually talk about in Northern Virginia and Maryland (I-495; I-95 (Va. and Md.); and Md. 200)?

Or are you referring to E-ZPass lanes on toll roads and toll crossings that accept cash (Va. 267; Va. 195; Va. 76; Chesapeake Bay Bridge; Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel; I-895 (Baltimore Harbor Tunnel); I-95 (Fort McHenry Tunnel))?

[Scott5114]

You could also do something like Oklahoma, where you get a ticket and pay full fare at the midpoint of the turnpike, and then you are refunded when you exit before the terminus.

Who the hell thought of that? Seems like a bit of a deterrent for people crossing the barrier but going well under the full distance.

It's only on the Turner (OKC-Tulsa) and Will Rogers (Tulsa-Missouri) Turnpikes (the section between them within Tulsa is free). It actually makes a lot of sense, because the vast majority of traffic is going the entire distance of whichever turnpike they're on. Those people only have to stop once, at the central barrier, rather than at both the entrance and exit. The majority of people not traveling the entire distance are still going to either start or end at one of the endpoints, meaning one or two stops.

The rationale for the setup on the Will Rogers, at least, is that having a toll booth immediately after crossing into Oklahoma gives a poor image of the state. There is also the benefit of having only one high-volume mainline toll plaza rather than one at each end. This probably saves money since you only need one supervisor, one cash office, etc.

[cl94]

Whenever I've seen cops located after E-ZPass lanes, they're normally looking to nail speeders.

Not sure what you mean by E-ZPass lanes. 

Are you talking about managed and tolled lanes like we usually talk about in Northern Virginia and Maryland (I-495; I-95 (Va. and Md.); and Md. 200)?

Or are you referring to E-ZPass lanes on toll roads and toll crossings that accept cash (Va. 267; Va. 195; Va. 76; Chesapeake Bay Bridge; Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel; I-895 (Baltimore Harbor Tunnel); I-95 (Fort McHenry Tunnel))?

Given the context of the comments he's replying to, I'd assume the term as it's known in the northeast, which is an E-ZPass-only lane at a toll plaza.

[jeffandnicole]

Whenever I've seen cops located after E-ZPass lanes, they're normally looking to nail speeders.

Not sure what you mean by E-ZPass lanes. 

Are you talking about managed and tolled lanes like we usually talk about in Northern Virginia and Maryland (I-495; I-95 (Va. and Md.); and Md. 200)?

Or are you referring to E-ZPass lanes on toll roads and toll crossings that accept cash (Va. 267; Va. 195; Va. 76; Chesapeake Bay Bridge; Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel; I-895 (Baltimore Harbor Tunnel); I-95 (Fort McHenry Tunnel))?

Remember the subject here. We're talking about speeding thru traditional lanes that previously required traffic to stop to get a ticket.

[hbelkins]

The rationale for the setup on the Will Rogers, at least, is that having a toll booth immediately after crossing into Oklahoma gives a poor image of the state. There is also the benefit of having only one high-volume mainline toll plaza rather than one at each end. This probably saves money since you only need one supervisor, one cash office, etc.

Doesn't seem to be an issue with other states, such as New York and I-90 (although I am aware that there is an exit between the PA state line and the toll barrier).

[1995hoo]

Whenever I've seen cops located after E-ZPass lanes, they're normally looking to nail speeders.

Not sure what you mean by E-ZPass lanes. 

Are you talking about managed and tolled lanes like we usually talk about in Northern Virginia and Maryland (I-495; I-95 (Va. and Md.); and Md. 200)?

Or are you referring to E-ZPass lanes on toll roads and toll crossings that accept cash (Va. 267; Va. 195; Va. 76; Chesapeake Bay Bridge; Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel; I-895 (Baltimore Harbor Tunnel); I-95 (Fort McHenry Tunnel))?

Toll plaza lanes in the context cl94 was referring to in a post two prior to the one of mine you quoted. I don't use Bob Marbourg's practice of referring to the HO/T lanes as "the E-ZPass lanes."

Example: Several times when I've gone through the "E-ZPass Only" left two lanes on the Dulles Toll Road I've noted a cop up ahead pointing a radar gun at said lanes. Not a surprise, really, if you consider that the speed limit is 35 mph in those lanes but it's not unusual to see people going through them at 60 mph or more.

[jeffandnicole]

Whenever I've seen cops located after E-ZPass lanes, they're normally looking to nail speeders.

Not sure what you mean by E-ZPass lanes. 

Are you talking about managed and tolled lanes like we usually talk about in Northern Virginia and Maryland (I-495; I-95 (Va. and Md.); and Md. 200)?

Or are you referring to E-ZPass lanes on toll roads and toll crossings that accept cash (Va. 267; Va. 195; Va. 76; Chesapeake Bay Bridge; Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel; I-895 (Baltimore Harbor Tunnel); I-95 (Fort McHenry Tunnel))?

Toll plaza lanes in the context cl94 was referring to in a post two prior to the one of mine you quoted. I don't use Bob Marbourg's practice of referring to the HO/T lanes as "the E-ZPass lanes."

Example: Several times when I've gone through the "E-ZPass Only" left two lanes on the Dulles Toll Road I've noted a cop up ahead pointing a radar gun at said lanes. Not a surprise, really, if you consider that the speed limit is 35 mph in those lanes but it's not unusual to see people going through them at 60 mph or more.

Oh, damn. Definitely never seen that further north.  Approaching the Delaware Memorial Bridge toll plaza there may be a cop in the median looking at traffic, but I can't tell if they're just monitoring traffic or looking for something. The speed limit is an absurdly low 20 mph over 1/2 mile away from the plaza, but of course everyone is still doing 50mph+. 

(I liken this to Delaware's School Zone speed limit of 20mph, except that's in effect right around the school itself.  Apparently toll plaza employees need more protection than 5 year olds.)