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It's time to revive the northern half of I-840

Started by I-39, July 21, 2015, 07:37:29 PM

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sprjus4

Even with it extending further away than the direct I-40 routing through Nashville, it sure is a useful east-west route to avoid the city, notably during rush hour. Even with 5 or 10 minutes added, still worth it IMO. If they built it closer, it may well get developed on and become yet another local freeway as many loops have become.


sparker

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 21, 2020, 11:03:23 PM
Even with it extending further away than the direct I-40 routing through Nashville, it sure is a useful east-west route to avoid the city, notably during rush hour. Even with 5 or 10 minutes added, still worth it IMO. If they built it closer, it may well get developed on and become yet another local freeway as many loops have become.

A lot of that depends upon zoning along the freeway's path -- some jurisdictions want to maximize their taxing potential, so they regularly approve businesses at interchanges and often housing along the freeway sections between those interchanges -- to reap a combination of property taxes as well as sales taxes.  Ironically, opposition to such is one of the only intrinsically good things about NIMBY activity -- if the area traversed by the freeway features larger properties with invariably wealthier ownership -- with corresponding political clout -- large-scale development may be stifled by towns and counties heeding NIMBY complaints (or being internally dominated by NIMBY's to begin with!) who can put a big kibosh on extensive development in order to maintain their local ambience and/or isolation/privacy.  I haven't driven on I-840, so the only graphic info I have is GSV -- but for the most part it appears that development along that route is decidedly limited; whether this is simply the economics attached to such an outer bypass or active involvement by locals is something that might deserve discussion -- maybe someone with more recent experience in the area can tap in here! 

wriddle082

#77
Quote from: sparker on May 22, 2020, 03:57:21 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 21, 2020, 11:03:23 PM
Even with it extending further away than the direct I-40 routing through Nashville, it sure is a useful east-west route to avoid the city, notably during rush hour. Even with 5 or 10 minutes added, still worth it IMO. If they built it closer, it may well get developed on and become yet another local freeway as many loops have become.

A lot of that depends upon zoning along the freeway's path -- some jurisdictions want to maximize their taxing potential, so they regularly approve businesses at interchanges and often housing along the freeway sections between those interchanges -- to reap a combination of property taxes as well as sales taxes.  Ironically, opposition to such is one of the only intrinsically good things about NIMBY activity -- if the area traversed by the freeway features larger properties with invariably wealthier ownership -- with corresponding political clout -- large-scale development may be stifled by towns and counties heeding NIMBY complaints (or being internally dominated by NIMBY's to begin with!) who can put a big kibosh on extensive development in order to maintain their local ambience and/or isolation/privacy.  I haven't driven on I-840, so the only graphic info I have is GSV -- but for the most part it appears that development along that route is decidedly limited; whether this is simply the economics attached to such an outer bypass or active involvement by locals is something that might deserve discussion -- maybe someone with more recent experience in the area can tap in here! 

Since 840's completion, the only jurisdiction that has zoned any sort of development along the route has been Wilson County.  A high school was built near the TN 265/109 interchange, as well as several warehouses.  Warehouses were also built at the Couchville Pike exit.  It was all spurred by the sewer lines that were extended to the (now defunct) Nashville Superspeedway at the Wilson/Rutherford Co line.  Rutherford Co residents were against building it so it all ended up in Wilson Co.  There doesn't seem to be very much development at all at any of the Rutherford Co interchanges, but they did have one new exit built later on for Veterans Pkwy.  As for Williamson Co, they built a high school at the US 31 exit, and that's it.

rte66man

Quote from: formulanone on May 21, 2020, 10:12:12 PM
Quote from: Brooks on May 21, 2020, 02:05:00 PM
I travel through Nashville whenever I am headed to Kentucky or points north (roughly once every 2 months) and from the experiences I've had, unless you're driving through in the middle of rush hour, Briley Pkwy is more than sufficient for my route (coming in from Memphis on I-40 heading towards I-65 north to the Kentucky line). It could definitely use some work (shoulders, auxiliary lanes, etc.) but while a northern I-840 might not be "useless" , it would definitely be a highly underused boondoggle. I'd venture to guess you have not traveled down Lamar Ave before.

I think the problem with I-840 is that it extends out way too far in each direction; it's convenient for northbound I-65 travelers well south of Nashville who are headed to points east/west on I-40, but it doesn't seem to be a genuine bypass. It's roughly twice the radius of a useful ring road, but I suppose that would put it smack dab in Franklin, so that wouldn't have happened.

In 25 years they'll be glad they built it, but I don't think it would solve that many issues with the knotted up design of I-24/40/65, because cars and trucks actually have to get to Nashville proper. I'll settle for an arc that completes it to I-24 towards Clarksville (FTFY).

If they extended it farther east to I65, it would be very useful, both for local destinations (Clarksville, Springfield) that are inconvenient to get to if eastbound on 40 from Memphis as well as traffic headed to Bowling Green and Louisville. Run it east of Montgomery Bell State park, cross the Cumberland near Ashland City, cross 24 near the TN49 interchange, run south of Springfield, then head east to 65 near White House. 

I realize the cost to build this route would be prohibitive and as mentioned upthread, the NIMBYs would kill it in a New York minute. 
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

sparker

^^^^^^^^^^
Several years ago I proposed an extension north of the eastern I-840 terminus that would extend into KY and connect with the Natcher (now I-165) Parkway.  Got a hell of a lot of flack for that -- but I still stand by the concept as having the ability to (a) add an effective I-65 bypass to the current I-40 one, and (b) provide, with the KY parkway complex, a regional bypass of Nashville -- think Evansville to eastward I-24 toward Chattanooga (a routing via yet-to-be-signed I-169 still requires schlepping through central Nashville).  And it seems clear that the E-W part of a Nashville northern arc would be both topographically and politically problematic; avoiding this would quite possible increase the chances for success of any bypass development in the area. 

Crown Victoria

I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.  However, the I-40 near Lebanon to I-65 near Portland segment is being built, in a sense, in the form of a widened (but mostly at-grade) TN-109, with a bypass of Gallatin and a future bypass of Portland to the new interchange with I-65 near the Kentucky line.  A freeway may indeed be needed to bypass TN-109 eventually (and could even use part of that alignment to cut costs, particularly the climb between Gallatin and Portland), but it won't happen anytime soon with the upgrades occurring in that corridor presently.

rte66man

Quote from: Crown Victoria on May 25, 2020, 07:35:20 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.

Why do you think the eastern link is needed to justify the I24 to I65 portion?  I believe there is a demand there for traffic coming up from Texas through Memphis to reach Louisville. As already mentioned, Briley Pkwy isn't a good option and no one wants to head into downtown to go back north.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

hbelkins

Quote from: rte66man on May 26, 2020, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: Crown Victoria on May 25, 2020, 07:35:20 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.

Why do you think the eastern link is needed to justify the I24 to I65 portion?  I believe there is a demand there for traffic coming up from Texas through Memphis to reach Louisville. As already mentioned, Briley Pkwy isn't a good option and no one wants to head into downtown to go back north.

West Memphis to Louisville? I'm using I-55, I-155, US 51, and the Kentucky parkways/I-24/I-65. Not going through Memphis and darn sure not going through Nashville.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Crown Victoria

Quote from: hbelkins on May 26, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: rte66man on May 26, 2020, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: Crown Victoria on May 25, 2020, 07:35:20 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.

Why do you think the eastern link is needed to justify the I24 to I65 portion?  I believe there is a demand there for traffic coming up from Texas through Memphis to reach Louisville. As already mentioned, Briley Pkwy isn't a good option and no one wants to head into downtown to go back north.

West Memphis to Louisville? I'm using I-55, I-155, US 51, and the Kentucky parkways/I-24/I-65. Not going through Memphis and darn sure not going through Nashville.

That northern section doesn't do much good without a link to I-40.  It would need to link either way, east or west, to be of much use. 

sprjus4

Quote from: hbelkins on May 26, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: rte66man on May 26, 2020, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: Crown Victoria on May 25, 2020, 07:35:20 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.

Why do you think the eastern link is needed to justify the I24 to I65 portion?  I believe there is a demand there for traffic coming up from Texas through Memphis to reach Louisville. As already mentioned, Briley Pkwy isn't a good option and no one wants to head into downtown to go back north.

West Memphis to Louisville? I'm using I-55, I-155, US 51, and the Kentucky parkways/I-24/I-65. Not going through Memphis and darn sure not going through Nashville.
The majority of the traffic is using I-40 and I-65 though, since that's the quickest connections.

Me personally, 50-50.

rte66man

Quote from: Crown Victoria on May 26, 2020, 03:26:44 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 26, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: rte66man on May 26, 2020, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: Crown Victoria on May 25, 2020, 07:35:20 PM
I think we can all agree that the potential I-840 section between I-40 near Dickson and I-24 near Clarksville would be the most difficult and expensive to build, and the northernmost piece from I-24 to I-65 near Portland, while relatively easy and cheap to build, won't get done without a link to I-40 east or west of Nashville.

Why do you think the eastern link is needed to justify the I24 to I65 portion?  I believe there is a demand there for traffic coming up from Texas through Memphis to reach Louisville. As already mentioned, Briley Pkwy isn't a good option and no one wants to head into downtown to go back north.

West Memphis to Louisville? I'm using I-55, I-155, US 51, and the Kentucky parkways/I-24/I-65. Not going through Memphis and darn sure not going through Nashville.

That northern section doesn't do much good without a link to I-40.  It would need to link either way, east or west, to be of much use. 

Again, why do you say that? I'm not saying you are wrong, I just want to see your reasons. I see a use for it. I realize mine may be in the minority, but just saying 'it will be of little use' isn't helpful for those of us not from the area.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

I-39

Just an FYI, I started this thread and no longer feel it is necessary to build the northern half of I-840. Tennessee needs to use their transportation dollars elsewhere, particularly upgrading local roads in the Middle Tennessee area.

Team445

Quote from: I-39 on May 31, 2020, 04:15:19 PM
Just an FYI, I started this thread and no longer feel it is necessary to build the northern half of I-840. Tennessee needs to use their transportation dollars elsewhere, particularly upgrading local roads in the Middle Tennessee area.

Strongly agree. Wish they would upgrade TN-96 between Almaville Road and Franklin to a divided highway. Sadly it will be 5 lanes. :(

TN-99 also needs upgrades between Veterans Pkwy and Murfreesboro.
South/Dixie

Roadgeekteen

A bit of a bump, but I've always felt like the proposed route for the northern half of I-840 was quite far north compared to where I would imagine it being.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

Avalanchez71

There is no need for the northern half of I-840.  There are several folks up that way that are content with farming and rural living.  As close as Ashland City is to Nashville now with the upgraded SR 12 the development to Ashland City is nothing in comparison with development along the other corridors.  Metro Nashville even has restrictions on zoning certain parts of the Joelton area as well.

sprjus4

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 28, 2021, 08:08:07 AM
There is no need for the northern half of I-840.  There are several folks up that way that are content with farming and rural living.
While I am sort of on the side of I-840's benefits are questionable... the road is not entirely a useless proposal, particularly as a I-65 South to I-40 West bypass of Nashville plus for I-24... and those reasons listed I wouldn't consider actual valid reasons to cancel a public works infrastructure project that would have benefits, particularly to long distance traffic.

Avalanchez71

There are have been various improvements to the TN 155 (Briley Pkwy) section from I-65 to I-40.  You can now use that as a by-pass.

Life in Paradise

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 28, 2021, 12:27:40 PM
There are have been various improvements to the TN 155 (Briley Pkwy) section from I-65 to I-40.  You can now use that as a by-pass.
I've used Briley Parkway as a bypass on occasion, but as a freeway, it was placed too close to inside the city for a feasible through traffic bypass as much as I-840 is far outside.  If one could go back 40-50 years and perhaps plan on a band around Nashville, perhaps at the distance of Old Hickory Blvd on the North/West/South and Bell Road on the East, that would be a good distance for current suburbanization of the Nashville/Davidson Co metro.

I-39

Quote from: Life in Paradise on June 28, 2021, 12:37:38 PM
I've used Briley Parkway as a bypass on occasion, but as a freeway, it was placed too close to inside the city for a feasible through traffic bypass as much as I-840 is far outside.  If one could go back 40-50 years and perhaps plan on a band around Nashville, perhaps at the distance of Old Hickory Blvd on the North/West/South and Bell Road on the East, that would be a good distance for current suburbanization of the Nashville/Davidson Co metro.

That is an excellent point. The failure to build a full interstate ring road around Nashville is an Achilles heel on the area. Briley Parkway doesn't cover the southern half of town, and it's not fully interstate standard. A ring road covering what you mentioned there skirting the outskirts of Davidson County would have negated the need to build I-840, which is admittedly not super beneficial the way it was built. 

Avalanchez71

I don't usually have to travel from I-40 through Nashville, however, judging by travelling straight through on I-65 it really isn't that bad outside of commuter hours.

wriddle082

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 02:56:03 PM
I don't usually have to travel from I-40 through Nashville, however, judging by travelling straight through on I-65 it really isn't that bad outside of commuter hours.

It can be a slog on the west side, since it's a heavy trucking route.  If any sort of wreck or lane closure happens, US 70 and TN 100 immediately get clogged, and it can add over an hour to get out towards Dickson.  At this point I'm very thankful that my parents moved from Dickson Co back into Nashville proper, so they won't have to put up with it on a daily basis.

An extended 840 from Dickson/Burns to White House via Ashland City and Springfield might look good on paper, but the terrain is extremely difficult, and partially protected as a state wildlife refuge.  I don't think it will ever happen in my lifetime, if ever.

triplemultiplex

I didn't like the way the northern half wouldn't meet itself on the Lebanon side of it anyway, so the hell with it.
(At least that's what the 15-year-old map I have in my head is telling me.)

As far as 840 vs 40, I will always take 840 if it's up to me.  The couple extra minutes is well worth the greatly reduced hassle of dealing with way more other drivers and merging traffic.  Much nicer to be able set the cruise and admire the limestone rock cuts.

It's the same for me driving from southern Wisconsin and going toward Indy or anything that direction.  It's nominally 'faster' to go via Chicago and GPS will usually route one that way.  But it's much less stressful going via Bloomington/Normal.  The Borman can suck it!
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

rte66man

Quote from: wriddle082 on June 29, 2021, 04:16:04 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 02:56:03 PM
I don't usually have to travel from I-40 through Nashville, however, judging by travelling straight through on I-65 it really isn't that bad outside of commuter hours.

It can be a slog on the west side, since it's a heavy trucking route.  If any sort of wreck or lane closure happens, US 70 and TN 100 immediately get clogged, and it can add over an hour to get out towards Dickson.  At this point I'm very thankful that my parents moved from Dickson Co back into Nashville proper, so they won't have to put up with it on a daily basis.

An extended 840 from Dickson/Burns to White House via Ashland City and Springfield might look good on paper, but the terrain is extremely difficult, and partially protected as a state wildlife refuge.  I don't think it will ever happen in my lifetime, if ever.


Even thought I want it to be built, I have to agree with you that it won't get built in my lifetime (I'm 62).  I remember the blasting that was needed for the Briley and the proposed route from Dickson to Springfield would be hugely more. Plus the cost of another Cumberland River bridge. I still hold out hope that the Ashland City area will push for a better connection tot he south and east.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Daniel Fiddler

I agree that an entire northern arc needs to be built, although I would be happy for just a portion between I-65 near Portland and I-40 near Lebanon to relieve congestion travelling between Chattanooga and Louisville and vice-versa.

sparker

Quote from: Daniel Fiddler on August 28, 2021, 04:55:57 PM
I agree that an entire northern arc needs to be built, although I would be happy for just a portion between I-65 near Portland and I-40 near Lebanon to relieve congestion travelling between Chattanooga and Louisville and vice-versa.

Agreed here; a functional 3/4 beltway as described will yield two outer arcs for effective bypasses of both I-65 and I-40 plus movements from north I-65 and west I-40 to southeast I-24.  Since the least utilized Interstate "spoke" extending from Nashville is I-24 NW toward Paducah, that part of the beltway isn't necessary, at least in the near term. 



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