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Author Topic: Raleigh-Durham  (Read 1618 times)

Plutonic Panda

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Raleigh-Durham
« on: February 24, 2022, 09:18:38 PM »

Catch all thread. Saw this article which eliminates several freeway projects in favor of mass transit projects. I canít say Iím too thrilled with this but Raleigh isnít my area. Iím curious what the thoughts are from people who live here about this are.

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The organization that does transportation planning for Durham and much of Orange County wants the state to spend less on building new freeways and widening existing ones. The Durham-Chapel Hill-Carrboro Metropolitan Planning Organization or MPO recently approved a 30-year plan that eliminates some long-anticipated projects, such as widening the Durham Freeway near Research Triangle Park and converting sections of U.S. 70 and U.S. 15-501 into expressways. In their place, the plan calls for spending more on transit, including increased bus service and new bus rapid transit lines. It also places more emphasis on bike lanes, crosswalks and sidewalks used by cyclists and pedestrians.

Read more at: https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article258643028.html#storylink=cpy
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2022, 09:22:19 PM »

Hey what gives, Raleigh-Durham is tolbs territory.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2022, 09:26:26 PM »

Hey what gives, Raleigh-Durham is tolbs territory.
Heh, I searched up a thread for this and couldnít find one. Though the plans affect several projects, some have their own thread, I wasnít sure where to post this. Let it be known Iíve never been to this area but I donít like to see a good freeway plan cut. Maybe itís not so good after all what do I know.
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tolbs17

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2022, 09:59:21 PM »

I-540 resurfacing let date has been delayed from 1/18/2022 to 5/17/2022

I-440 resurfacing let date has been delayed from 3/15/2022 to 4/19/2022.

As seen in this document: https://connect.ncdot.gov/letting/12%20Month%20Tentative%20Letting%20Library/FEBRUARY%202022%20CHANGES%20SUMMARY.pdf

Here's a video that shows you the I-440 widening!


Older video, hopefully an updated one will come soon, but this shows the I-40 widening from Clayton (NC-42) to Raleigh (I-440 interchange).

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cowboy_wilhelm

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2022, 10:12:51 PM »

I was looking forward to the U.S. 70 improvements since it will provide a great alternative to I-40 and would eventually provide a freeway connection between I-540 and I-85. The intersection at Miami Blvd. is a backed up cluster every morning and evening, but I'm sure a couple of buses and a bike lane will take care of it.
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tolbs17

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2022, 10:16:50 PM »

I was looking forward to the U.S. 70 improvements since it will provide a great alternative to I-40 and would eventually provide a freeway connection between I-540 and I-85. The intersection at Miami Blvd. is a backed up cluster every morning and evening, but I'm sure a couple of buses and a bike lane will take care of it.
I assume you mean this. And it's currently unfunded. Hopefully the infrastructure bill will fix this as this is utterly needed. Along with the TW Alexander Drive and Brier Creek Improvements.

Covid delayed a lot of projects, and that's a setback definitely but hopefully it will be sped up by the infrastructure bill...

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/us-70-durham/Pages/default.aspx#:~:text=Planning%20is%20underway%20to%20convert,I%2D540%20in%20Wake%20County.

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/us-70-brier-creek/Pages/default.aspx
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tolbs17

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2022, 10:24:42 PM »

After reading that article, I'd hate to see it turn into US-74 (Independence Blvd). But it's better than nothing at least if it's not going to be a full freeway.

AADT is at 40,000 and I'd expect that number to rise significantly after the opening of the East End Connector, It would most likely be a 6-lane expressway maybe with some express lanes (Yes similar to US-74 in east Charlotte) if not a freeway.

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Now NCDOT and the MPO will have to work out what modernizing the road would entail, if not a freeway. And NCDOT will need to determine how that Durham section fits with the freeways on either end, including a one-mile section at Brier Creek in Raleigh slated to be built later this decade.
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adventurernumber1

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2022, 03:30:02 AM »

I support increased investment in public transit, but I'm still always dismayed to see the boot given to road projects. I've been incredibly impressed with all the new roads and road improvements that have come lately in the Triangle region, and with how fast they've been getting done (the new, tolled section of 540 is already almost halfway done!). It would be very sad to see all that end now after it's been going so well. Hopefully it's only the projects listed that will be affected and not all of them; anything jeopardizing something like NC 540 (which will be essential in its entirety for travel as the area continues to grow) would be a bridge too far.
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Dirt Roads

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2022, 12:49:42 PM »

Catch all thread. Saw this article which eliminates several freeway projects in favor of mass transit projects. I canít say Iím too thrilled with this but Raleigh isnít my area. Iím curious what the thoughts are from people who live here about this are.

Quote
The organization that does transportation planning for Durham and much of Orange County wants the state to spend less on building new freeways and widening existing ones. The Durham-Chapel Hill-Carrboro Metropolitan Planning Organization or MPO recently approved a 30-year plan that eliminates some long-anticipated projects, such as widening the Durham Freeway near Research Triangle Park and converting sections of U.S. 70 and U.S. 15-501 into expressways. In their place, the plan calls for spending more on transit, including increased bus service and new bus rapid transit lines. It also places more emphasis on bike lanes, crosswalks and sidewalks used by cyclists and pedestrians.

Read more at: https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article258643028.html#storylink=cpy

I support increased investment in public transit, but I'm still always dismayed to see the boot given to road projects. I've been incredibly impressed with all the new roads and road improvements that have come lately in the Triangle region, and with how fast they've been getting done (the new, tolled section of 540 is already almost halfway done!). It would be very sad to see all that end now after it's been going so well. Hopefully it's only the projects listed that will be affected and not all of them; anything jeopardizing something like NC 540 (which will be essential in its entirety for travel as the area continues to grow) would be a bridge too far.

I am surprised that our MPO would make such a statement, but in reality the Federal Transit Administration generally requires that all Federally-funded rail transit projects be cost effective.  That measure is called the TSUB (transit system user benefit), which includes a financial component that is related to the anticipated increase/decrease in surrounding transportation infrastructure (think future investment in highways).  TSUB ratings are used to score different projects against each other when developing the FTA funding priorities.

The TSUB calculation has been changed several times since I worked on any FTA-funded projects, so I would hesitate on making any speculations whether such a decrease is currently a Federal requirement.  In the past, a New Start transit system with a very strong forecast ridership and low costs (Initial Operable Segment) would still score competitively against other planned systems.  It is hard to balance ridership (which factors in passenger originations and destinations) with costs.  Longer systems have more passengers, but the IOS needs a railyard, maintenance facility, central control and railcar fleet (all which increase dramatically as round trip time increases).  Thus, the longer systems that attract more passengers tend to be too expensive. 

We hit the sweet spot on the original TTA Regional Rail System with a huge rail system some 26.1 miles long between Raleigh and Durham that originally came in just under $500M.  But that required a design team that could transition quickly to a construction management team.  When certain municipalities along the way decided to demand that the FTA pay for certain preferences, we missed the 1-year design deadline and that nearly doubled the design costs (killing the entire system).

The newer Durham-Orange LRT proposal (Durham to Chapel Hill) tried to go further.  They went for a $2B monstrosity that didn't look feasible.  But a huge increase in population boosted the forecast ridership, but even moreso, filled the coffers of Triangle Transit with a lot of extra funds that reduced the Federal funding needed for the project.  But D-O tried to expand at the last minute to connect beyond Duke Medical Center to reach North Carolina Central University without reaching an agreement with Duke first.  Many folks blame Duke for killing that system, but working with a private entity is an entirely different game than working with municipalities. 

As best as I can tell, neither of those projects focused on how to reduce the cost of adjacent highways.  But it was factored into the TSUB as part of how the numbers got crunched in each cost model iteration. 

Any specific discussions about those two projects ought be posted under the Mass Transit category.  Please reserve discussion towards the interaction of rail transit and highway demand.
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wdcrft63

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2022, 06:14:10 PM »

The area is so decentralized, with lots of suburban sprawl and multiple employment centers, it's unlikely that light rail can be successful. We do need better public transportation but it will have to run on tires.
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Mileage Mike

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2022, 06:29:54 PM »

With the layout of the Triangle Area I don't really see light-rail being viable. RTP is the center of economic activity while downtown Raleigh is in one direction and downtown Durham in the other. It's just not dense enough in any singular area of activity.
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golden eagle

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2022, 09:16:11 PM »

I may take a trip to the RDU this summer. I have friends in both Raleigh and Durham. I'm not going to ask how bad is traffic. Just hope it's not like Atlanta.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2022, 09:53:28 PM »

Any chance the Orange-Durham LRT will be built or itís dead?
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tolbs17

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2022, 09:55:32 PM »

Any chance the Orange-Durham LRT will be built or itís dead?
It's dead. But they plan on using the existing railroads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham%E2%80%93Orange_Light_Rail_Transit

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2019: Discontinuation
On March 27, 2019, the GoTriangle board of trustees voted to discontinue the project. Board members stated that it had become impossible to meet increased expenses and address difficulty acquiring right of way along Duke University's campus by deadlines set in state law.[3]

In the wake of the cancelled project, GoTriangle began studying the possibility of initiating a commuter rail service using existing rail corridors.

This was planned though (Although not the Orange-Durham LRT)

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2021/05/duke-university-durham-ncsu-commuter-raleigh-airport-amtrak-light-rail

https://www.readyforrailnc.com/project-overview/proposed-stations/
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 10:09:36 PM by tolbs17 »
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Dirt Roads

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2022, 12:25:28 PM »

Any chance the Orange-Durham LRT will be built or itís dead?

Posting my response to a new thread in the Mass Transit category...
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tolbs17

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2022, 12:27:58 PM »

Any chance the Orange-Durham LRT will be built or itís dead?

Posting my response to a new thread in the Mass Transit category...
Can we have these posts about railroads moved to that thread and leave this for highway and other news?
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tolbs17

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2022, 05:18:42 PM »

When looking at this, I feel like what they plan on doing will be in the way of NCDOT trying to modify the US-1/64/I-440/I-40 interchange which is desperately needed due to high traffic volumes on the loops. When they planned to relocate I-95 to make a directional interchange with I-42, the developers planned a huge development which stands directly in the way of the relocation. I like development, but I don't like them being in the way of a highway improvement project.

https://shoppingcenterbusiness.com/jll-arranges-38-4-million-sale-of-365000-square-foot-retail-center-in-metro-raleigh/

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/40-440-us-1-interchange/Documents/meeting-map-interchange-concept-1.pdf

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/40-440-us-1-interchange/Documents/meeting-map-interchange-concept-2.pdf
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ARMOURERERIC

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2022, 06:24:49 PM »

When looking at this, I feel like what they plan on doing will be in the way of NCDOT trying to modify the US-1/64/I-440/I-40 interchange which is desperately needed due to high traffic volumes on the loops. When they planned to relocate I-95 to make a directional interchange with I-42, the developers planned a huge development which stands directly in the way of the relocation. I like development, but I don't like them being in the way of a highway improvement project.

https://shoppingcenterbusiness.com/jll-arranges-38-4-million-sale-of-365000-square-foot-retail-center-in-metro-raleigh/

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/40-440-us-1-interchange/Documents/meeting-map-interchange-concept-1.pdf

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/40-440-us-1-interchange/Documents/meeting-map-interchange-concept-2.pdf

In all fairness, I suspect the shopping center predates the interchange and the parcel was severed by the interchange.
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ran4sh

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2022, 09:53:06 PM »

When looking at this, I feel like what they plan on doing will be in the way of NCDOT trying to modify the US-1/64/I-440/I-40 interchange which is desperately needed due to high traffic volumes on the loops. When they planned to relocate I-95 to make a directional interchange with I-42, the developers planned a huge development which stands directly in the way of the relocation. I like development, but I don't like them being in the way of a highway improvement project.

https://shoppingcenterbusiness.com/jll-arranges-38-4-million-sale-of-365000-square-foot-retail-center-in-metro-raleigh/

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/40-440-us-1-interchange/Documents/meeting-map-interchange-concept-1.pdf

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/40-440-us-1-interchange/Documents/meeting-map-interchange-concept-2.pdf

In all fairness, I suspect the shopping center predates the interchange and the parcel was severed by the interchange.

At I-40/US1? No, that freeway has been there for a long time.
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Mapmikey

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2022, 10:04:14 PM »

What is now the Motel 6, the small shopping unit next door, the old bank and the west half of the main shopping building were all built between 1968-72.

The US 1 bypass of Cary appeared about 1963...
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tolbs17

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Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2022, 06:31:17 PM »

Completion date for this project has been delayed from Fall 2022 to the summer of 2024, while the highway should have 8-10 lanes fully operational by summer 2023. I believe modifications to the project made this happen.

https://www.cbs17.com/news/when-will-construction-on-i-40-between-johnston-and-wake-counties-wrap-up/
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