Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[vdeane]

Honestly, stuff like this is why I agree with what one person said in a different thread, that we need to actually act as advocates and write op-eds, contact DOTs, and contact elected officials, not just complain on a forum that nobody in power reads.  Of course, as a NYSDOT employee, I can't be part of that, but maybe it's a project someone who doesn't have ethics constraints could take on.

An extra 8 minutes.  Yep, an inconvenience, but at least it's all freeway.

It will probably be felt the most by people who live in the western suburbs.  Get close to exit 16A, think you're almost home, only to realize that it will take twice as long as it used to.

Might as well just route I-390 -> I-86 at this point with that added time. Avoids the Thruway too.

Still longer, at least from most (all?) points around Rochester, believe it or not.  And if one is being really strict about traveling along the interstate system, NY 17 probably won't be formally designated I-86 any time soon, even west of Binghamton.

[sprjus4]

Might as well just route I-390 -> I-86 at this point with that added time. Avoids the Thruway too.

Still longer, at least from most (all?) points around Rochester, believe it or not.  And if one is being really strict about traveling along the interstate system, NY 17 probably won't be formally designated I-86 any time soon, even west of Binghamton.

I know, but now it will only be a few minutes. Over a long distance, it's probably a wash. Plus, wouldn't I-86 simply carry less traffic overall, making it a more pleasant routing than the toll road?

[Rothman]

I-86 would also be more appealing if Region 9 would pave it in Tioga County...

[webny99]

Me coming back to this thread a week later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_v67RWmRE8

[webny99]

In the context of the ~80K that the viaduct carries just south of 690, yes it is "not much" compared to the overall.  Even if the ~7K figure is lowballed (which, given the events of the past 18 months, it's probably high at the moment), you're still taking a small percentage of overall traffic...traffic on the viaduct is still overwhelmingly local in nature.

I don't recall ever saying that it's high in percentage terms - of course it won't be that high in a CBD during commuter hours - only that's it's very significant nonetheless. My issue with dismissing through traffic is that the entire purpose of the interstate system is to serve medium- and long-distance traffic, which the I-81 viaduct certainly does — and for a large area of both the Northeastern US and Canada, not to mention Syracuse's own suburbs (I would consider anyone not coming to/from the immediate downtown area to be "through traffic" , and that would include plenty of suburb-to-suburb commutes).

... But you and Val  continue to make it out to be much larger than the numbers show it actually is.

Probably because we're the ones with ties to Rochester who would lose out.

Certainly, due in no small part to the fact that I actually use it often for long-distance travel - enough times that I've lost count, but I know it's well over a dozen, and for a wide range of trips — family in the NYC area, friends in the Philly area, last summer's trip to the ocean, and last weekend's trip to the Catskills, just to name a few.

  I can also see from the traffic on the Thruway it's it's obviously not a negligible movement, at least on tourist weekends.  ...  There are a TON of PA plates west of Syracuse, nearly none east, and I doubt they're all coming from Erie to go vacation in Syracuse after the long weekend is over.

Yeah, there's a very significant increase in traffic west of Exit 39, and it's not all coming to/from Syracuse.   This sign certainly wouldn't exist if it was a negligible movement.

[webny99]

Have to agree here.  The three movements he bolded really aren't that significant.  ... NYC to Toronto and NYC to Buffalo just don't cut the mustard compared even to NYC to Albany.

You think? Of course those movements don't clear the NYC/Albany bar, but they are still significant nonetheless. I picked those three because of their size/importance and to illustrate Syracuse's centrality to the entire Northeastern US and adjacent parts of Canada.

But it's not like that's it... in addition to NYC, DC, Buffalo, Toronto, and Ottawa, there's also Rochester, Binghamton, Scranton, Harrisburg, Allentown, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and most of Ontario and Quebec once the border reopens. As vdeane mentioned, you'd be surprised by the number of Pennsylvania plates (and Ontario/Quebec, prior to Covid) on I-81 during summer travel season.

There was a movement back in the early 2000s to have DOTs focus on the capital-to-capital corridor and it fizzled due to lack of demand, just as one example.

Probably because we already have such a corridor. It goes right through the heart of downtown Syracuse. I think we might even have a thread about it somewhere...

[kalvado]

In the context of the ~80K that the viaduct carries just south of 690, yes it is "not much" compared to the overall.  Even if the ~7K figure is lowballed (which, given the events of the past 18 months, it's probably high at the moment), you're still taking a small percentage of overall traffic...traffic on the viaduct is still overwhelmingly local in nature.

I don't recall ever saying that it's high in percentage terms - of course it won't be that high in a CBD during commuter hours - only that's it's very significant nonetheless. My issue with dismissing through traffic is that the entire purpose of the interstate system is to serve medium- and long-distance traffic, which the I-81 viaduct certainly does — and for a large area of both the Northeastern US and Canada, not to mention Syracuse's own suburbs (I would consider anyone not coming to/from the immediate downtown area to be "through traffic" , and that would include plenty of suburb-to-suburb commutes).

... But you and Val  continue to make it out to be much larger than the numbers show it actually is.

Probably because we're the ones with ties to Rochester who would lose out.

Certainly, due in no small part to the fact that I actually use it often for long-distance travel - enough times that I've lost count, but I know it's well over a dozen, and for a wide range of trips — family in the NYC area, friends in the Philly area, last summer's trip to the ocean, and last weekend's trip to the Catskills, just to name a few.

  I can also see from the traffic on the Thruway it's it's obviously not a negligible movement, at least on tourist weekends.  ...  There are a TON of PA plates west of Syracuse, nearly none east, and I doubt they're all coming from Erie to go vacation in Syracuse after the long weekend is over.

Yeah, there's a very significant increase in traffic west of Exit 39, and it's not all coming to/from Syracuse.   This sign certainly wouldn't exist if it was a negligible movement.

Long story short - whenever you change something, there are those who gain and those who lose. Very few cases when everyone wins or stays even, no loosers.
In this particular case, we talk about loss for those who travel long haul through Syracuse compared to those who would lose if the highway is rebuilt. And from that perspective, the number of those in transit is important as their combined loss (5 miles/5 minutes per vehicle, right?) has to be weighed against the expected win for the city.

[webny99]

In this particular case, we talk about loss for those who travel long haul through Syracuse compared to those who would lose if the highway is rebuilt. And from that perspective, the number of those in transit is important as their combined loss (5 miles/5 minutes per vehicle, right?) has to be weighed against the expected win for the city.

Who exactly would lose if the highway is rebuilt (besides the state, from a financial perspective)?

The expected win for the city is just that - expected. Far from certain, and certainly not universally expected. Personally, I don't really see any benefits to the removal aside from the cost savings. It remains to be seen whether the supposed better connectivity will actually materialize, and even then, it's not exactly the type of dense residential/small commericial area that would benefit most from a more walkable road network.

[kalvado]

In this particular case, we talk about loss for those who travel long haul through Syracuse compared to those who would lose if the highway is rebuilt. And from that perspective, the number of those in transit is important as their combined loss (5 miles/5 minutes per vehicle, right?) has to be weighed against the expected win for the city.

Who exactly would lose if the highway is rebuilt (besides the state, from a financial perspective)?

The expected win for the city is just that - expected. Far from certain, and certainly not universally expected. Personally, I don't really see any benefits to the removal aside from the cost savings. It remains to be seen whether the supposed better connectivity will actually materialize, and even then, it's not exactly the type of dense residential/small commericial area that would benefit most from a more walkable road network.

Well, for one - I lived a few years with windows facing a highly travelled 4-lane divided highway. THat wasn't fun, and I can see those within half a mile from the road to benefit just from lower noise.
Money is another issue. You can compare expected construction cost savings with expected extra travel and see how that adds up.

[sprjus4]

A difference of a couple hundred million dollars in a multi-billion dollar project... the benefits of a limited access highway remaining will easily outweigh the additional cost... especially considering I-481 is going to have to eventually be widened to 6 lanes to accommodate the additional traffic, and the lack of redundancy in the system anymore.

[vdeane]

Plus properties on the corridor will still be on a four-lane divided highway, it would just now be at-grade and landscaped with far more traffic dealing with the traffic lights.  IMO "community grid" isn't really a good name, as when I hear it I think of something like US 87 through Amarillo, not what I-81 will become.

And great point on the cost.  I think the last time the media was talking about alternatives, the price difference was around $300 million in a project that would cost a minimum of $2 billion, or about 15% (actually, the "community grid" was quoted as costing MORE than the viaduct would have when alternatives were discussed a few years before, so that's some massive price inflation!).  IMO not really worth the loss in connectivity for the area's freeway system and the state's interstate system as a whole.

(personal opinion)

[Rothman]

$300m is the cost of a major project.  It is little wonder NYSDOT went with the cheaper option, especially when the LOS projections were deemed acceptable.

But, let us continue to bemoan the decision.

[Plutonic Panda]

$300m is the cost of a major project.  It is little wonder NYSDOT went with the cheaper option, especially when the LOS projections were deemed acceptable.

But, let us continue to bemoan the decision.

Right because cheaper equates to better. That's what the US is known for, building cheap infrastructure and small ambitions.

[yakra]

double deck that shi'

*runs*

[Rothman]

$300m is the cost of a major project.  It is little wonder NYSDOT went with the cheaper option, especially when the LOS projections were deemed acceptable.

But, let us continue to bemoan the decision.

Right because cheaper equates to better. That's what the US is known for, building cheap infrastructure and small ambitions.

Like I said, carry on.

[Rothman]

double deck that shi'

*runs*

Ha!

[kalvado]

$300m is the cost of a major project.  It is little wonder NYSDOT went with the cheaper option, especially when the LOS projections were deemed acceptable.

But, let us continue to bemoan the decision.

Right because cheaper equates to better. That's what the US is known for, building cheap infrastructure and small ambitions.

Also for brute forcing dumb ideas.
If there is a take-home message in this thread, that would be about adding southwestern highway bypass as a desirable addition.

[machias]

After a few dozen folks die in ambulances because they can't get to the hospital as they traverse the community grid, or pedestrians trying to cross a six lane boulevard get hit, or game attendance at the Carrier Dome goes down because it takes four hours to get home and spectators lose interest, they'll realize the community grid probably wasn't the best decision for the area.

[froggie]

^ Those are rather inflated numbers, especially your Carrier Dome analogy which was poorly considered.  Dome/SU traffic already has to traverse several city blocks today to get to/from an Interstate.  Getting to I-81 in either direction requires going up to Harrison, which is close to a mile of backtracking for 81 South from the Carrier Dome.  If anything, the Community Grid option will make it EASIER to get between 81 South and SU/Carrier Dome/the hospitals because it will add an access point at Van Buren.

[sprjus4]

If any of the existing grade separated portion north of Harrison is eliminated, then you're adding at-grade intersections.

I agree though, I don't think it's going to impact any local travel to a large extent, it's more of a regional / through impact if anything.

[Rothman]

After a few dozen folks die in ambulances because they can't get to the hospital as they traverse the community grid, or pedestrians trying to cross a six lane boulevard get hit, or game attendance at the Carrier Dome goes down because it takes four hours to get home and spectators lose interest, they'll realize the community grid probably wasn't the best decision for the area.

Heh.  What a jeremiad.

Ambulances to Upstate already use the surface streets more than you'd think and pedestrians already cross Almond with little issue.

SMTC is currently conducting a study of traffic associated with Dome events.

In short, if these are the concerns you have, they're actually near the bottom of the list.  Others mentioned in this thread are more valid.

[Plutonic Panda]

It looks like a new Skyway Option is presented:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/representatives-from-salina-syracuse-unveil-grid-skyway-proposal-for-i-81/?fbclid=IwAR1okmvBqdcgs0wYYnhkNaOA4j41KwhcCKEfCotN-zBMj2TUHoSPEAkn__o

[kalvado]

It looks like a new Skyway Option is presented:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/representatives-from-salina-syracuse-unveil-grid-skyway-proposal-for-i-81/?fbclid=IwAR1okmvBqdcgs0wYYnhkNaOA4j41KwhcCKEfCotN-zBMj2TUHoSPEAkn__o

The way Buttigieg praised highway removal two weeks ago, this is a non-starter.
While Secretary didn't focus on minor details, like schedules and funding, he was very clear in his overall vision:

you can certainly think of this as restorative or reparative

Links:
https://www.syracuse.com/opinion/2021/07/buttigieg-visit-confirms-i-81-as-federal-priority-editorial-board-opinion.html
https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/06/in-syracusecom-interview-buttigieg-discusses-race-reparations-and-i-81-video.html
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2021/06/pete-buttigieg-in-syracuse-i-81-construction-jobs-will-go-to-local-residents.html

[D-Dey65]

The way Buttigieg praised highway removal two weeks ago, this is a non-starter.
While Secretary didn't focus on minor details, like schedules and funding, he was very clear in his overall vision:

you can certainly think of this as restorative or reparative

Links:
https://www.syracuse.com/opinion/2021/07/buttigieg-visit-confirms-i-81-as-federal-priority-editorial-board-opinion.html
https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/06/in-syracusecom-interview-buttigieg-discusses-race-reparations-and-i-81-video.html
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2021/06/pete-buttigieg-in-syracuse-i-81-construction-jobs-will-go-to-local-residents.html

It almost makes me sympathetic to Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer for standing in the way of this, if the ad I saw on TV this afternoon is to be believed.

[Rothman]

It looks like a new Skyway Option is presented:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/representatives-from-salina-syracuse-unveil-grid-skyway-proposal-for-i-81/?fbclid=IwAR1okmvBqdcgs0wYYnhkNaOA4j41KwhcCKEfCotN-zBMj2TUHoSPEAkn__o

Pfft.  Community Grid is hurtling towards ROD as is.