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Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel

Started by Mapmikey, November 21, 2016, 08:55:00 PM

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Beltway

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 06, 2017, 01:52:35 PM
Just a reminder...
Baltimore Sun: Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel restaurant, gift shop and pier set to close

I wonder if there is any feasible and affordable engineering solution to build a new restaurant and ample parking somewhere on that island?
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hbelkins

I'm in hopes that CBBT swag will be available somewhere, either online or in a physical shop located elsewhere. Last time I was on the CBBT, I bought a sticker but haven't put it on my vehicle yet. I'd like to be able to maybe get another sometime.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

WillWeaverRVA

I picked up a t-shirt when I stopped by coming back from a work trip to Accomack County. That gift shop is a really nice place, I'm sad to see it go.
Will Weaver
WillWeaverRVA Photography | Twitter

"But how will the oxen know where to drown if we renumber the Oregon Trail?" - NE2

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Beltway on September 06, 2017, 10:25:15 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 06, 2017, 01:52:35 PM
Just a reminder...
Baltimore Sun: Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel restaurant, gift shop and pier set to close

I wonder if there is any feasible and affordable engineering solution to build a new restaurant and ample parking somewhere on that island?

It took a lot of design and engineering just to fit the 2nd tunnel on the island.  If they tried to refit the restaurant on there it'll probably be the world's most costly restaurant design!!

Beltway

#54
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 07, 2017, 02:13:17 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 06, 2017, 10:25:15 PM
I wonder if there is any feasible and affordable engineering solution to build a new restaurant and ample parking somewhere on that island?
It took a lot of design and engineering just to fit the 2nd tunnel on the island.  If they tried to refit the restaurant on there it'll probably be the world's most costly restaurant design!!

I agree.  Initially they were going to expand both islands to accommodate the about 250 foot spacing between the two bridges.  That would be needed for the immersed tube construction method  which would require that much separation in order to dredge the trench for the new tube without impacting the existing tube.

By using the shield-bored tunnel method (first time in the H.R. area) they can get much closer to the existing tube and thereby place its portals on the existing islands.  Plus save about $200 million.

Building those 4 islands on what is essentially open sea was considered one of the most remarkable portions of the project, also very expensive.  The same challenges would occur on expanding an island, massive amounts of suitable soil fill material needs to be obtained from somewhere, barged out there, and then placed layer by layer and properly compacted, and massive amounts of armor stone needs to be barged out there and placed around the island.

They must have built the islands very well, as I have never heard of them being damaged in any storm, other than perhaps some cosmetic damage, and they have been there for 53 years.
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Beltway

#55
https://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/chesapeake-bay-bridge-tunnel-pier-and-restaurant-closing-oct/article_59064e92-73cd-5c16-93e6-1f82453c373f.html

Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel pier and restaurant closing Oct. 1
By Jordan Pascale
The Virginian-Pilot
Sep 7, 2017

Quote
In less than a month, crews will dig a big hole in an island in the Chesapeake Bay.  A groundbreaking is set for 11:30 a.m. on Sept. 18.

Months later, a giant boring machine will be lowered into that hole to dig another mile-long tunnel to complement the one under the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel's Thimble Shoal channel.

It will be the first tunnel in the region to be built using the boring method.  The machine's 41-foot rotating head cuts into the soil, carves it out and hauls it away on a conveyor belt before it's transferred to trucks.

Precast concrete-tunnel segments are loaded into the machine and pushed into place. Once one ring of concrete is finished, the machine pushes forward, excavates more soil and adds another ring.

When it reaches the other side, the machine will be disassembled and removed. Then crews install the roadway, lighting and mechanical systems.

The 8,800 drivers that use the bridge-tunnel complex daily likely won't be inconvenienced. Most of the work will be outside the current right of way. The tunnel stretches from Virginia Beach to the Eastern Shore.

Perhaps the most obvious changes tourists, fishermen  and drivers would  notice is the closure of the island nearest Virginia Beach. The island is home to a fishing pier, restaurant and gift shop. The pier will return in 2022, but the restaurant and gift shop won't due to space constraints on the island. Expanding it would've cost more than $200 million.

At $756 million, the project is among the largest in the region since the $2.1 billion project that built a new Midtown Tunnel, refurbished the old Midtown and Downtown tunnels and built the  Martin Luther King Jr. Expressway [Extension] in Portsmouth.

While the route is not the most-heavily traveled in the region — some residents question why this tunnel is being built ahead of more pressing needs — the bay bridge-tunnel  is in a unique situation.

The  Tunnel District is a political subdivision of the state and operates as a business entity. The district doesn't use federal, state or local taxes to operate or maintain the bridge, but it is tax-exempt.

Because it runs as a business, the commission aims to reduce risk factors. A catastrophic event in either tunnel could render the route useless. Adding a second tunnel would  increase safety by making traffic flow one way in each.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

D-Dey65

I found a video of the bridge from 1987:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpHNx_70zug

And because it's from 1987, it's clearly in VHS quality. Which is too bad, because I still want to see evidence of those speed limit traffic signals the bridge used to have on it in the early-1980's.


MCRoads

Those stubs on the crossovers aren't going away, are they? ERR, that makes me mad.
I build roads on Minecraft. Like, really good roads.
Interstates traveled:
4/5/10*/11**/12**/15/25*/29*/35(E/W[TX])/40*/44**/49(LA**)/55*/64**/65/66*/70°/71*76(PA*,CO*)/78*°/80*/95°/99(PA**,NY**)

*/** indicates a terminus/termini being traveled
° Indicates a gap (I.E Breezwood, PA.)

more room plz

roadman65

I am guessing that the Chesapeake Channel Tunnel is not part of the project as I cannot find anything to support it. 

However, I like the boring method over the covered trench method better. 

Also I seen on CBBT website there is a gift shop at the Eastern Shore Plaza where souveneirs can still be bought for travelers due to the loss of the gift shop.  Also the fishing pier will be rebuilt once the second tube opens.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Beltway

Quote from: roadman65 on April 16, 2019, 09:57:08 PM
I am guessing that the Chesapeake Channel Tunnel is not part of the project as I cannot find anything to support it. 

The Parallel Thimble Shoal Tunnel Project does not include the Chesapeake Channel Tunnel expansion.  That will be somewhere in the future and the CCBTD has not announced any schedule for that project or even whether it will necessarily be a tunnel.
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Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
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sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on April 16, 2019, 11:27:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 16, 2019, 09:57:08 PM
I am guessing that the Chesapeake Channel Tunnel is not part of the project as I cannot find anything to support it. 

The Parallel Thimble Shoal Tunnel Project does not include the Chesapeake Channel Tunnel expansion.  That will be somewhere in the future and the CCBTD has not announced any schedule for that project or even whether it will necessarily be a tunnel.
Nothing recent regarding that expansion, though a presentation given to HRTPO back in 2014 indicated that project "Parallel Crossing Phase II-B (Parallel Chesapeake Channel Tunnel)" would occur in 2030 or 2040.

Parallel Crossing Phase I was completed in July 1999 and involved constructing the parallel bridge structures. The current Thimble Shoal Tunnel project is Parallel Crossing Phase II-A, and the later Chesapeake Channel Tunnel project would be Parallel Crossing Phase II-B.
http://www.cbbt.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/HRTPO-Project-Overviewrevised614.pdf

sprjus4

^^^
More updated information, a brochure advertising the Chesapeake Bay-Bridge Tunnel released in December 2018 notes on Page 2 under "Historical Timeline" that "Tunneling Forward with Phase III, Parallel Chesapeake Channel Tunnel" will occur in 2035 - 2045.

http://www.cbbt.com/Print/mobile/index.html#p=3

Beltway

#62
So they are planning Chesapeake Channel as a tunnel and not a bridge which I thought might be in the alternatives analysis.  No longer a major Navy channel.

Hopefully they will find the needed funding long before 2035. 

But very welcome that they are now building Thimble Shoals.  Any word on whether this project includes a full rebab of the existing tunnel?
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Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

#63
Quote from: Beltway on April 18, 2019, 10:00:24 PM
So they are planning Chesapeake Channel as a tunnel and not a bridge which I thought might be in the alternatives analysis.  No longer a major Navy channel.

Hopefully they will find the needed funding long before 2035. 

But very welcome that they are now building Thimble Shoals.  Any word on whether this project includes a full rebab of the existing tunnel?
From everything I've seen, no word on rehabilitation of the current tunnel. It seems all the focus is on simply getting the new tunnel built.

I did notice an interesting design feature of the new tunnel. It wouldn't expand the existing islands, but rather shrink to a narrow footprint to retain the existing, then widen back out, then shrink again at the other island, then expand back out to the current bridges. This was done supposedly to reduce environmental impact from having to expand the island. It retains the current pier, which is to be renovated, but demolished the restaurant.

Here were some other proposals in the past which would have widened the island, and retained or constructed a new welcome center / restaurant. Notice the newer they are, the smaller footprint they have.

2015 proposal -


2016 proposal -


Current design -




Beltway

Quote from: sprjus4 on April 19, 2019, 12:29:57 AM
I did notice an interesting design feature of the new tunnel. It wouldn't expand the existing islands, but rather shrink to a narrow footprint to retain the existing, then widen back out, then shrink again at the other island, then expand back out to the current bridges. This was done supposedly to reduce environmental impact from having to expand the island.

Mainly to save over $200 million in construction costs to expand the manmade islands.  Very expensive construction.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sprjus4

Quote from: Beltway on April 19, 2019, 12:57:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 19, 2019, 12:29:57 AM
I did notice an interesting design feature of the new tunnel. It wouldn't expand the existing islands, but rather shrink to a narrow footprint to retain the existing, then widen back out, then shrink again at the other island, then expand back out to the current bridges. This was done supposedly to reduce environmental impact from having to expand the island.

Mainly to save over $200 million in construction costs to expand the manmade islands.  Very expensive construction.
Ah, that makes sense. Was there any previous cost estimates on having an island expansion?

jeffandnicole

Quote from: sprjus4 on April 19, 2019, 01:08:00 AM
Quote from: Beltway on April 19, 2019, 12:57:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 19, 2019, 12:29:57 AM
I did notice an interesting design feature of the new tunnel. It wouldn't expand the existing islands, but rather shrink to a narrow footprint to retain the existing, then widen back out, then shrink again at the other island, then expand back out to the current bridges. This was done supposedly to reduce environmental impact from having to expand the island.

Mainly to save over $200 million in construction costs to expand the manmade islands.  Very expensive construction.
Ah, that makes sense. Was there any previous cost estimates on having an island expansion?

Well, yeah. That's how they know they'll save $200 million.

Beltway

Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 19, 2019, 05:56:30 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 19, 2019, 01:08:00 AM
Quote from: Beltway on April 19, 2019, 12:57:57 AM
Mainly to save over $200 million in construction costs to expand the manmade islands.  Very expensive construction.
Ah, that makes sense. Was there any previous cost estimates on having an island expansion?
Well, yeah. That's how they know they'll save $200 million.

Yeah, the 2015 proposal he showed above would have connected to the ends of the parallel trestles on a seemless straight alignment and would have required widening the manmade islands about 200 feet to the west.

That was the future plan when they built the parallel trestles in the late 1990s.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
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Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

roadman65

They saved on construction costs as well as having to dredge and dump sand to make the islands bigger. 

Too bad they cannot do that to the HRBT when they add the two new tunnels.  From what I gather is that four new islands will be made to make the approaches.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Beltway

Quote from: roadman65 on April 23, 2019, 10:29:24 PM
They saved on construction costs as well as having to dredge and dump sand to make the islands bigger. 
Too bad they cannot do that to the HRBT when they add the two new tunnels.  From what I gather is that four new islands will be made to make the approaches.

Much shallower water and much less hydrostatic forces, 4 to 6 feet deep around the HRBT islands.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

ixnay

How much public input was there regarding what to do with the gift shop/restaurant (which I stopped at a couple of times)?  Was it a big money loser?  How was its sacrifice sold to the public?

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: ixnay on April 24, 2019, 12:14:55 PM
How much public input was there regarding what to do with the gift shop/restaurant (which I stopped at a couple of times)?  Was it a big money loser?  How was its sacrifice sold to the public?

ixnay

There was probably a public meeting describing the new tunnel, and it probably would've been shown that the restaurant/gift shop was going to be eliminated.

Being that the fishing pier was going to be maintained/rebuilt, I'm going to say this was a much larger concern for the general public in the area rather than a gift shop or restaurant they rarely use. 

Rothman

I wonder how much public input the CBBT needs to consider.  Their administrators were quite proud of their nearly complete autonomy when I met with them over 10 years ago.

(personal opinion expressed)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

froggie

The gift shop/restaurant was a nice-to-have, but there was no way to justify spending the extra $250 million (the number that floated around the Hampton Roads media at the time...I was still in Norfolk then) to expand the island for a replacement gift shop.

Beltway

Quote from: froggie on April 24, 2019, 01:27:33 PM
The gift shop/restaurant was a nice-to-have, but there was no way to justify spending the extra $250 million (the number that floated around the Hampton Roads media at the time...I was still in Norfolk then) to expand the island for a replacement gift shop.

The bored tunnel gave the ability to build within 50 feet or less of the existing tunnel and staying within the existing island area. 

The wide separation on the HRBT with the tunnels 200 feet apart was needed to construct a trench for a parallel immersed tube with 2:1 slopes so that the tube can be placed and then backfilled over.  That necessitated expanding the islands.

The wide trestle separation of 200 feet on the CBBT was predicated on the same type of immersed tunnel project for the second tube.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)



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