De frewayising the Sheridan

[cpzilliacus]

That offer remains on the table. Actually, if there's enough interest, I could even put together some sort of mini-meet. Anyone else want a tour of The Bronx?

YES! 

One request if you were to do that - a stop at the firehouse on Intervale Avenue, which was (and may still be) home to Engine Company 82, made somewhat famous by the brilliant Report from Engine Company 82 written by Dennis Smith (now retired FDNY).  Dennis Smith is as good of a writer of American English that I have ever read (and proof that there are firefighters that know how to write, and write well).

[Rothman]

As I understand it all that's funded right now is the boulevardization. The new ramps to Edgewater and the Reconstruction of the interchange with the Bruckner are part of the master plan that's been shown to the public now, but they're separate future projects that may or may not actually happen anytime soon (or ever).

In all fairness, none of it is funded yet.  Cuomo included the first phase in his budget, but that still has yet to be approved.

You don't think he would consider how to fund it prior to putting it in his budget proposal?

In my personal opinion, my bet is that NYSDOT has been planning how to fit it into its capital program for months prior to the budget negotiations.

[froggie]

^ Probably.  But when it comes to New York, I don't put much stock in anything until the construction barrels are flying...

[The Ghostbuster]

Is the Sheridan really history? There have been other freeway teardowns that didn't pan out (e.g. Interstate 10 in New Orleans). On the other hand, there have been freeway teardowns elsewhere in the country, and this has been proposed for several years, so maybe the Sheridan is toast.

[sparker]

For all practical purposes, the Sheridan is not a vital thoroughfare in either a regional or national sense; I'm surprised it was built in the first place rather than just mainlining the Bruckner; it's not going to be missed all that much.  OTOH, handing a laydown victory to the roving band of academics, activists, and their merry men & women cohorts who extoll freeway removal as a general good (at least in their ad hoc ideology) may just encourage such efforts elsewhere in less cut-and-dry situations.  So I for one am torn -- I've driven by this iteration of I-895 a multitude of times without any urge to actually use it -- but IMO it's the exception -- a facility that is actually superfluous -- rather than the rule.  It's all but inevitable that if and when the Sheridan is "transformed", the general-teardown forces will point to it as an example of what might be done elsewhere, rather than looking at it in the context of the facility's lack of utility.

[vdeane]

I'd be down for a Bronx mini-meet.  That said, I think dgolub might be thinking of a NYC meet this year, so it could conceivably even be part of a full meet if that's still the plan.

[Duke87]

For all practical purposes, the Sheridan is not a vital thoroughfare in either a regional or national sense; I'm surprised it was built in the first place rather than just mainlining the Bruckner;

As with many seemingly not that useful pieces of infrastructure, it is not that useful on account of being unfinished. The plan was for it to continue northeasterly from the Cross Bronx and end at the New England Thruway near Co-Op City. Had it been finished as planned, it would have much higher traffic counts since it would have been the shortest, fastest route from the Triborough Bridge and the South Bronx to I-95 towards New England. The unbuilt segment of it would have even been the shortest, fastest route from the George Washington Bridge to I-95 towards New England.

But, unlike the section of the South Bronx it was built through, which then as now was generally slumlike, the unbuilt northern section would have passed through a couple communities of people with more money and more political clout. People who, because they had more money and more political clout, were able to get it cancelled. And thus, the southern section of the Sheridan stands to this day as an underutilized vestige of a grander plan which never came to be.

[MisterSG1]

I don't know, I assumed that my meet with Duke87 was supposed to be moreso of a "transit meet", but whatever, I'll play along with what he has in mind.

As said in his original post, driving around in a mobile cocoon doesn't allow you to see the city.

[Otto Yamamoto]

For all practical purposes, the Sheridan is not a vital thoroughfare in either a regional or national sense; I'm surprised it was built in the first place rather than just mainlining the Bruckner;

As with many seemingly not that useful pieces of infrastructure, it is not that useful on account of being unfinished. The plan was for it to continue northeasterly from the Cross Bronx and end at the New England Thruway near Co-Op City. Had it been finished as planned, it would have much higher traffic counts since it would have been the shortest, fastest route from the Triborough Bridge and the South Bronx to I-95 towards New England. The unbuilt segment of it would have even been the shortest, fastest route from the George Washington Bridge to I-95 towards New England.

But, unlike the section of the South Bronx it was built through, which then as now was generally slumlike, the unbuilt northern section would have passed through a couple communities of people with more money and more political clout. People who, because they had more money and more political clout, were able to get it cancelled. And thus, the southern section of the Sheridan stands to this day as an underutilized vestige of a grander plan which never came to be.

Slum like?

QTASUN1

[PHLBOS]

As with many seemingly not that useful pieces of infrastructure, it is not that useful on account of being unfinished. The plan was for it to continue northeasterly from the Cross Bronx and end at the New England Thruway near Co-Op City. Had it been finished as planned, it would have much higher traffic counts since it would have been the shortest, fastest route from the Triborough Bridge and the South Bronx to I-95 towards New England. The unbuilt segment of it would have even been the shortest, fastest route from the George Washington Bridge to I-95 towards New England.

Side bar: Given that route description (of the unbuilt portion); had it been fully-built, would that stretch have become a re-routed I-95 when completed?

Slum like?

This 1981 movie did the South Bronx's reputation no favors.

[sparker]

For all practical purposes, the Sheridan is not a vital thoroughfare in either a regional or national sense; I'm surprised it was built in the first place rather than just mainlining the Bruckner;

As with many seemingly not that useful pieces of infrastructure, it is not that useful on account of being unfinished. The plan was for it to continue northeasterly from the Cross Bronx and end at the New England Thruway near Co-Op City. Had it been finished as planned, it would have much higher traffic counts since it would have been the shortest, fastest route from the Triborough Bridge and the South Bronx to I-95 towards New England. The unbuilt segment of it would have even been the shortest, fastest route from the George Washington Bridge to I-95 towards New England.

But, unlike the section of the South Bronx it was built through, which then as now was generally slumlike, the unbuilt northern section would have passed through a couple communities of people with more money and more political clout. People who, because they had more money and more political clout, were able to get it cancelled. And thus, the southern section of the Sheridan stands to this day as an underutilized vestige of a grander plan which never came to be.

What's interesting is the set of ramps from 895 to 95; they position the whole I-895/Sheridan as primarily an elongated set of ramps from I-278 north to I-95 south (with a little local service thrown in for the area residents).  When one looks at the original plans that showed I-278 extending over the fully-planned Sheridan to a terminus at I-95 near Pelham, it becomes increasingly likely that the ramps that are currently there (895N>95S as a loop, 95N>895S as a direct RH ramp) are the only ones that would have been deployed if the Pelham extension had been built; all other movements would have been handled elsewhere:  SB I-95 to SB 1-278 would have been the Pelham divergence, with the original I-878 over Bruckner being a "safety valve" alternate -- with 878 also handling the traffic from the Throggs Neck bridge (original I-78/present I-295).  Northbound 278 would have simply been the opposite set of movements; NB I-95 would have been accomplished by the Pelham interchange, while 878 would provide movement to Throggs Neck as well as the short section of I-95 between I-678/878 and the I-278 terminus at Pelham.  Then as now, the only connectivity purpose of the existing Sheridan would be as a functional relief of I-87/Deegan, providing an alternate albeit longer way to get to SB I-95 and the GW Bridge.  And that 895>95 loop ramp can't be terribly efficient in any case.  Aside from my concerns about overblown publicity re the Sheridan teardown, downgrading the facility -- particularly if it means a better "straightline" for the Bruckner, isn't a big loss!

[Duke87]

I don't know, I assumed that my meet with Duke87 was supposed to be moreso of a "transit meet", but whatever, I'll play along with what he has in mind.

Would involve getting around by car (if only because it's faster than using buses and trains for the types of places we'd be going from/to), but also getting out to see stuff on foot rather than staying in it the whole time. Because yes, the ground perspective is the best one. Though even a windshield perspective from local streets is far more informative than a windshield perspective from the highway.

Slum like?

This 1981 movie did the South Bronx's reputation no favors.

Not purely a matter of reputation. It is a rough neighborhood in that area... or at least has been. It looks like the gentrifiers are starting to get to it; some luxury condos (ugh) are even already under construction right next to the Sheridan in the area where they want to add intersections.

[Otto Yamamoto]

Yeah, 'rough' neighbourhoods that I travel daily. My life is more in danger from gentrification than any hooligans.

XT1254

[cpzilliacus]

Not purely a matter of reputation. It is a rough neighborhood in that area... or at least has been.

Report From Engine Company 82 certainly described its response area (mostly in the South Bronx) as a very rough area (back when Dennis Smith wrote that book as a member of Engine 82 in the late 1960's or early 1970's).

[cpzilliacus]

For all practical purposes, the Sheridan is not a vital thoroughfare in either a regional or national sense; I'm surprised it was built in the first place rather than just mainlining the Bruckner; it's not going to be missed all that much.

What bothers me about this project has little to do with its impact on anyone (good or bad), but what it might do with the big Hunts Point Produce Market (located in the Bronx not far from the south end of I-895 here).

I think it reasonable to assume that much of what changes hands there comes across the GWB in semitrailers from either the New Jersey Turnpike corridor, or from the I-80 corridor from points as distant as the Pacific Coast, Florida and Texas. 

Would downgrading I-895 (combined with the steep tolls to cross the GWB into New York) motivated produce market management to just move the entire operation to North Jersey?  That's lot of well-paid blue collar jobs to put at risk to make a small group of anti-highway activists happy.

[Duke87]

Yeah, 'rough' neighbourhoods that I travel daily. My life is more in danger from gentrification than any hooligans.

Not disputing this. My point is that the difference in socioeconomic status between the populations of the South Bronx and of Morris Park resulted in the Sheridan being built through the former but not the latter. Because deeper pockets lead to greater success at preventing things you don't like from being built.

What bothers me about this project has little to do with its impact on anyone (good or bad), but what it might do with the big Hunts Point Produce Market.

I think it reasonable to assume that much of what changes hands there comes across the GWB in semitrailers from either the New Jersey Turnpike corridor, or from the I-80 corridor from points as distant as the Pacific Coast, Florida and Texas. 

Would downgrading I-895 (combined with the steep tolls to cross the GWB into New York) motivated produce market management to just move the entire operation to North Jersey?  That's lot of well-paid blue collar jobs to put at risk to make a small group of anti-highway activists happy.

Some of it arrives by rail, but most of the rest does arrive by truck via the Sheridan, yes.

You are not the first person to bring up this concern, and I have shared it as well. However, these concerns were raised when there was the possibility that the expressway might be removed or downgraded in its entirety, and that the plan to add the new direct ramps would be scrapped as a result. With the new ramps still in the plan, and the downgrading being limited to three new intersections, Trucks heading to the market will, in net, be better off - those direct ramps will allow trucks to bypass more than three signalized intersections, as well as eliminate a left turn in both directions.

Meanwhile what goes through Hunts Point Market supplies a lot of restaurants and grocery stores in NYC. If those markets were to relocate to New Jersey, there would now be a need for local delivery trucks to cross the Hudson River to get there, incurring the Port Authority's expensive tolls and taking up more of their already congested roadway space in the process. The cost savings from moving to New Jersey would have to be quite significant to overcome the loss in operational efficiency on the local delivery side that would result.

[D-Dey65]

For all practical purposes, the Sheridan is not a vital thoroughfare in either a regional or national sense; I'm surprised it was built in the first place rather than just mainlining the Bruckner;

As with many seemingly not that useful pieces of infrastructure, it is not that useful on account of being unfinished. The plan was for it to continue northeasterly from the Cross Bronx and end at the New England Thruway near Co-Op City. Had it been finished as planned, it would have much higher traffic counts since it would have been the shortest, fastest route from the Triborough Bridge and the South Bronx to I-95 towards New England. The unbuilt segment of it would have even been the shortest, fastest route from the George Washington Bridge to I-95 towards New England.

Thereby reducing much of the traffic along the Cross Bronx. I saw a CubeSmart warehouse built in Eastchester where the ramps from the northern terminus of the Sheridan Expressway should've been built.

[Alps]

I wonder... was the Sheridan part of the chargeable Interstate mileage in NY? I assume it would be, since it's a quite old part of the system. By de-freewaylizing it ^_^, they have removed chargeable mileage and the ability to get 90% funding for projects. Was this swapped out for mileage elsewhere - such as connecting I-495? Or is it just gone?

[Rothman]

I wonder... was the Sheridan part of the chargeable Interstate mileage in NY? I assume it would be, since it's a quite old part of the system. By de-freewaylizing it ^_^, they have removed chargeable mileage and the ability to get 90% funding for projects. Was this swapped out for mileage elsewhere - such as connecting I-495? Or is it just gone?

It's just gone.

What I wonder is if the boulevard is maintained by the City.  I'd assume so.

[Plutonic Panda]

NYC needs more freeways not less. Hopefully this proposal dies a nice death.

[interstate73]

NYC needs more freeways not less. Hopefully this proposal dies a nice death.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's a little late for that...

[SteveG1988]

NYC needs more freeways not less. Hopefully this proposal dies a nice death.

The project died...due to being completed.

[froggie]

NYC needs more freeways not less. Hopefully this proposal dies a nice death.

NYC doesn't really need something it has no room for...

[cl94]

What I wonder is if the boulevard is maintained by the City.  I'd assume so.

It is. Part of the deal for giving up Interstate funding was that the City had to take over the entire cost of maintenance.

[jemacedo9]

So was this the success that some people thought it would be?
Or was this the disaster that other people thought it would be?

For all of the discussions that happen before projects when people are taking one side vs the other, I rarely see a lot of follow up in the media after something is completed, to see how things turned out.