AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: US 17-1 origin  (Read 1601 times)

Mapmikey

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3400
  • Co-curator with Froggie of www.vahighways.com

  • Age: 51
  • Last Login: July 30, 2021, 10:49:19 PM
    • Co-curator Virginia Highways Project
US 17-1 origin
« on: September 25, 2020, 08:26:52 PM »

I have run across a memo from North Carolina regarding US 17-1 that gives a clue to why this designation existed.

It said Virginia refused to have any letters on their US routes.  This was part of the "can I have US 70-1" conversation between NC and AASHO.

The AASHO database does not yet have any documents for Virginia in the 1920s so I cannot yet research if they say anything officially.  I do know that US 25E was generally shown and referred to as US 25 in the early years.

I do know that not many years later Virginia was apparently willing to allow US 33E and US 33W as part of the US 33 Chicago to Charleston route the involved states were trying to put together and had Virginia's backing.

What is more odd is why not then use 301 or 317 instead? 
Logged

Mapmikey

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3400
  • Co-curator with Froggie of www.vahighways.com

  • Age: 51
  • Last Login: July 30, 2021, 10:49:19 PM
    • Co-curator Virginia Highways Project
Re: US 17-1 origin
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2020, 06:18:49 PM »

Another clue, found misfiled in the Utah pile:

In a Feb 3, 1926 memo to Virginia, AASHTO outlined the changes approved by Virginia at the Jan 1926 AASHO meeting.

1 was to change US 52 to US 60
2 was to change US 301 and US 13 south of Norfolk both to US 17

3.  "Present Route No. 15 from the North Carolina-Virginia line south of Emporia to Petersburg was changed to 17 West. The Executive Committee understood that the question of adjusting the numbers of these north and south routes aa continuation of numbers from North Carolina had been brought to your attention and that you had objected to giving route 15 the number 17 A or any designation which appeared to subordinate this route Into Petersburg, and the action taken was subject entirely to your concurrence."

This memo also referenced Virginia approving internally the proposed system of interstate routes within Virginia on Dec 9.  The Dec 9, 1925 CTB minutes however only say that the Hwy Commissioner can rearrange maps and numbers as he sees fit; places the Petersburg to NC via Emporia road into the state highway system so that it can be in the US route system.
Logged

US 89

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4010
  • 189 to Evanston!

  • Location: Salt Lake City/Atlanta
  • Last Login: Today at 01:30:24 AM
    • Utah Highways
Re: US 17-1 origin
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2020, 01:41:33 AM »

Another clue, found misfiled in the Utah pile:

There is quite a bit of Virginia stuff in the early Utah sections. I havenít really gone through it as Iím not familiar with VA, but you may want to look further through those sections.

Mapmikey

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3400
  • Co-curator with Froggie of www.vahighways.com

  • Age: 51
  • Last Login: July 30, 2021, 10:49:19 PM
    • Co-curator Virginia Highways Project
Re: US 17-1 origin
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2020, 12:50:24 PM »

Another clue, found misfiled in the Utah pile:

There is quite a bit of Virginia stuff in the early Utah sections. I havenít really gone through it as Iím not familiar with VA, but you may want to look further through those sections.

Thanks...

Found a bit more relevant information on 17-1.

A bunch of back and forth between Virginia and AASHO.  Virginia REALLY did not want a suffixed route. 

Based on the correspondence, the designation 17-1 did not come from Virginia, who wanted to renumber it after it showed up on the list.  They really wanted it to remain US 15.  Haven't found anything on where 17-1 came from (i.e. NC or AASHO or what the rationale is).

US 17-1 is technically a 2-digit designation.  So suggestions (including from me) that this should've been a x17 would not have solved the objection of Virginia on this particular route.

Virginia did reluctantly accept 17-1.

But in a related note refused to accept US 60E for what is now US 60.   US 52 was the original route for this and AASHO wanted to renumber it US 62.  Kentucky objected because it weas the only state south of the Great Lakes with no x0 route, so they really wanted 60.  AASHO was trying to offer 60E as an alternative but after Virginia shut that down they did the US 66-60 switch.
Logged

The Ghostbuster

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3101
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison, WI
  • Last Login: July 30, 2021, 09:17:13 PM
Re: US 17-1 origin
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2020, 04:54:19 PM »

I find it ironic that US 17-1, US 117 , and US 217 were all decommissioned in 1932. Surely the US 217 designation could have been reapplied elsewhere since the 117 designation was. US 17-1 should never have been used, unless there were additional US x-1's.
Logged

Mapmikey

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3400
  • Co-curator with Froggie of www.vahighways.com

  • Age: 51
  • Last Login: July 30, 2021, 10:49:19 PM
    • Co-curator Virginia Highways Project
Re: US 17-1 origin
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2020, 09:14:12 PM »

I find it ironic that US 17-1, US 117 , and US 217 were all decommissioned in 1932. Surely the US 217 designation could have been reapplied elsewhere since the 117 designation was. US 17-1 should never have been used, unless there were additional US x-1's.

NC first asked SC to consider requesting US 17-1 be extended to Charleston along the coast.  Also extend US 601 north from Cheraw to Mt Airy.  Also in this memo they asked SC to consider extending US 76 to Brevard, with a later goal of getting it to Newport TN (March 12 1932)

SC writes AASHO 3/14/32 requesting
1. extend US 76 to Chattanooga
2. US 276 Laurens to Brevard
3. new route (no number floated) Anderson to Charleston
4. new route Charleston to Smithfield NC
5. new route Conway to Wilmington via Myrtle Beach
6. extend US 601 to Mt airy
7. new route Savannah to Walterboro to Raleigh

3/17/32 AASHO replies to SC:
1. should move US 17 to coast
2. should extend US 217 to Charleston via old 17
3. alternatively extend US 217 to Sumter then south to Walterboro
4. alternatively extend US 601 to Sumter then south to Walterboro

AASHO writes SC 3/30/32 with these suggestions:
1. move US 17 to coast with a TEMP 17 to run Myrtle Beach-Conway-Georgetown [no direct road to Georgetown existed yet]
2. extend US 76 to run Wilmington to Chattanooga, and make route to Greenville US 276
3. the same double extension of US 217 shown below
4. Raleigh to Walterboro to be US 501 and connect to 501 in Durham
5. 601 extension to Mt Airy
6. suggests US 178 for the Anderson to Charleston area route


SC counters to NC on 3/30/32 with:
 1.  US 17 moved to follow the coastline
 2.  US 217 north extended east (new US corridor) to Williamston; extended south to replace US 17 to Charleston
 3.  US 501 should be extended south to Walterboro via Raleigh, Fayetteville and Sumter)
 4.  agreed with US 601 extension
 5.  says US 76 should be extended west to Chattanooga without going through NC, but let's get US 64 extended east across the width of NC



NC petitions AASHO the following 5/27/32:
1. extend US 70 to Atlantic
2. extend US 311 to Rowland plus on to Boardman
3. new route (no # floated) from US 311 via Greensboro to US 311 Hinshaw Forks
4. new route Jacksonville to Murfreesboro (no # floated)
5. new route Zebulon to Englehard (no # floated)
6. new route from Raleigh to Walterboro as US 301
7. new route from Knoxville to Seneca SC that can be numbered anything other than US 25W or any x25.
8. new US 317 from Charleston to Smithfield via Georgetown and Whiteville
9. the US 601 extension to Mt Airy
10. the US 64 extension to Ft Landing
11. US 276 from Greenville to Brevard
12. extend US 117 west to Mocksville
13. remove US 321 from Boone to Bristol and replace with US 421 to Bristol and Cumberland Gap (replace US 411)
14. extend US 76 east to Wilmington
15. US 217 extended north to Petersburg (a 5/31/32 memo from Virginia confirms they accept this) and south to Charleston via Florence (replacing parts of US 17 and 17-1)
16. assign US 417 to replace US 17-1 from Wilmington to Wilson


A second memo from NC to AASHO dated 5/27/32 discusses a conference with SC Hwy officials

It reaffirms the list above except:
1.  US 17 should remain running Wilmington-Florence-Charleston (this would create a 100+ mile overlay of US 17-217)

5/30/32 SC petitions AASHO that mimics NC request below except it includes US 178 and the Knoxville-Seneca route

On 6/4/32, NC refines their request with these changes:
1. US 311 extension only to Rowland
2. dropped the Knoxville to Seneca route as Tennessee would not concur
3. dropped the US 17-76 and US 17-217 overlays

On 6/6/32, AASHO replies:
1. US 311 should go on the new route and new US 411 should replace US 311
2. suggested rerouting US 311's extension to use the concrete NC 170.
3. wanted US 64 to overlay US 70 from Morganton to Statesville.  NC asked for US 64 to go via Lenoir as it does today

On 6/9/32, NC replies that they want US 64 to follow NC 90 everywhere, then gave a long-winded explanation why US 311 and US 411 should not be swapped

On 6/10/32, AASHO gives NC what they want with US 311/411 but not US 64

All throughout this time AASHO was being sent letters from various interest groups about not changing anything about US 25 or 25W in Tennessee and North Carolina.

On 6/16/32, AASHO replies with all the changes based on the requests and they got all the corridors requested but with the numbers we are familiar with (158, 258, 301, 401, 701 etc.)

North Carolina wanted one other corridor but SC did not agree so it never got included but it was essentially extending US 221 south into SC
Logged

Avalanchez71

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1798
  • Location: Middle Tennessee
  • Last Login: July 29, 2021, 10:58:05 PM
Re: US 17-1 origin
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2020, 11:53:26 AM »

I wonder what the rationale was with TN not wanting the Knoxville-Seneca route.  The basis against suffixed routes was something else.  There is a tiny portion of US 11E and US 11W in Bristol, VA.  Did they initially split on State St on the TENN side?
Logged

Mapmikey

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3400
  • Co-curator with Froggie of www.vahighways.com

  • Age: 51
  • Last Login: July 30, 2021, 10:49:19 PM
    • Co-curator Virginia Highways Project
Re: US 17-1 origin
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2020, 12:09:25 PM »

I wonder what the rationale was with TN not wanting the Knoxville-Seneca route.  The basis against suffixed routes was something else.  There is a tiny portion of US 11E and US 11W in Bristol, VA.  Did they initially split on State St on the TENN side?

Original split was State at Front.

In 1930 it moved to State at Piedmont

In 1966 it moved to its current location
Logged

Mapmikey

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3400
  • Co-curator with Froggie of www.vahighways.com

  • Age: 51
  • Last Login: July 30, 2021, 10:49:19 PM
    • Co-curator Virginia Highways Project
Re: US 17-1 origin
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2020, 09:55:59 AM »

I wonder what the rationale was with TN not wanting the Knoxville-Seneca route.  The basis against suffixed routes was something else.  There is a tiny portion of US 11E and US 11W in Bristol, VA.  Did they initially split on State St on the TENN side?

Tennessee objected to a new number for Knoxville to Seneca as proposed by NC-SC.  Tennessee wanted to extend US 25W along this corridor on its way to Augusta GA, with US 25E extending much further south over 25 from Newport TN through Asheville, etc.

This is in the TN 1932 OTHER document on the AASHO database
Logged

Avalanchez71

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1798
  • Location: Middle Tennessee
  • Last Login: July 29, 2021, 10:58:05 PM
Re: US 17-1 origin
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2020, 03:25:01 PM »

That is one long split.  I like the concept.
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.