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Author Topic: The sad state of Raton Pass  (Read 4656 times)

deathtopumpkins

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2021, 04:29:33 PM »

I also believe New Mexico has one of the largest inventories of gravel surface State highways.

If we're excluding secondary/state-maintained county routes in VA/NC/WV/SC, they almost certainly have the largest outside of Alaska. NM has a handful of state routes that, given things I have read elsewhere, are unwise to attempt without a high-clearance vehicle. Kentucky has similarly-crappy routes in a few places, but at least those are all spurs or roads with reasonable alternates.

Do you know which are the high clearance ones?  Would love to drive them.  :bigass:

Chris

165 is allegedly one of them. I looked at making it part of a loop involving Sandia Crest and decided against it when I read reports stating that the road was in very bad shape. 159 may be another.

Thanks for the rabbit hole to fall down!

Pretty shocking that some of these are signed state highways:
https://goo.gl/maps/JgdShscEAsXgH1GM8 (NM 126)
https://goo.gl/maps/cxQqCLvh4sD7YfQC8 (NM 159)
https://goo.gl/maps/Fabv9T34uRc8NXDB7 (NM 163)
https://goo.gl/maps/ASM9dBsRk1ihf6i46 (NM 165)

Part of what makes NM fun to explore though!
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jayhawkco

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2021, 07:21:03 PM »

Thanks for the rabbit hole to fall down!

Pretty shocking that some of these are signed state highways:
https://goo.gl/maps/JgdShscEAsXgH1GM8 (NM 126)
https://goo.gl/maps/cxQqCLvh4sD7YfQC8 (NM 159)
https://goo.gl/maps/Fabv9T34uRc8NXDB7 (NM 163)
https://goo.gl/maps/ASM9dBsRk1ihf6i46 (NM 165)

Part of what makes NM fun to explore though!

Those are now all on my short list to clinch.  :)  I'm sure I could find some good camping back in there too.

Chris

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2021, 07:46:45 PM »





I also believe New Mexico has one of the largest inventories of gravel surface State highways.

If we're excluding secondary/state-maintained county routes in VA/NC/WV/SC, they almost certainly have the largest outside of Alaska. NM has a handful of state routes that, given things I have read elsewhere, are unwise to attempt without a high-clearance vehicle. Kentucky has similarly-crappy routes in a few places, but at least those are all spurs or roads with reasonable alternates.

Do you know which are the high clearance ones?  Would love to drive them.  :bigass:

Chris

165 is allegedly one of them. I looked at making it part of a loop involving Sandia Crest and decided against it when I read reports stating that the road was in very bad shape. 159 may be another.

Thanks for the rabbit hole to fall down!

Pretty shocking that some of these are signed state highways:
https://goo.gl/maps/JgdShscEAsXgH1GM8 (NM 126)
https://goo.gl/maps/cxQqCLvh4sD7YfQC8 (NM 159)
https://goo.gl/maps/Fabv9T34uRc8NXDB7 (NM 163)
https://goo.gl/maps/ASM9dBsRk1ihf6i46 (NM 165)

Part of what makes NM fun to explore though!

Do they all really require high clearance, though, other than wet conditions?  Wikipedia says NM-126 is graded dirt (doesn't sound very challenging), it says NM-159 is 'rough' (sounds challenging), and it doesn't say much at all about NM-163 and NM-165.
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jayhawkco

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2021, 08:02:02 PM »

Do they all really require high clearance, though, other than wet conditions?  Wikipedia says NM-126 is graded dirt (doesn't sound very challenging), it says NM-159 is 'rough' (sounds challenging), and it doesn't say much at all about NM-163 and NM-165.

Nothing obviously looks that bad.  I just drive a Wrangler Rubicon so I like trying to find some challenging roads.  I also think it's crazy that states have unpaved state highways, but I've already clinched all the ones in Colorado, so I need some fresh blood.

Chris

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2021, 09:42:54 PM »

Do they all really require high clearance, though, other than wet conditions?  Wikipedia says NM-126 is graded dirt (doesn't sound very challenging), it says NM-159 is 'rough' (sounds challenging), and it doesn't say much at all about NM-163 and NM-165.

Nothing obviously looks that bad.  I just drive a Wrangler Rubicon so I like trying to find some challenging roads.  I also think it's crazy that states have unpaved state highways, but I've already clinched all the ones in Colorado, so I need some fresh blood.

Chris

You should hit up the two in Utah. SR 153 is fairly well-maintained gravel, though it was a bit rutted and bumpy when I drove it this past summer. 261 is, of course, the famous Moki Dugway.

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2021, 10:34:38 PM »

Do they all really require high clearance, though, other than wet conditions?  Wikipedia says NM-126 is graded dirt (doesn't sound very challenging), it says NM-159 is 'rough' (sounds challenging), and it doesn't say much at all about NM-163 and NM-165.

Nothing obviously looks that bad.  I just drive a Wrangler Rubicon so I like trying to find some challenging roads.  I also think it's crazy that states have unpaved state highways, but I've already clinched all the ones in Colorado, so I need some fresh blood.

Chris

You should hit up the two in Utah. SR 153 is fairly well-maintained gravel, though it was a bit rutted and bumpy when I drove it this past summer. 261 is, of course, the famous Moki Dugway.

Drove through Medicine Hat on the way to Kanab, but didn't make the turn.  Looks like next time I'm down that way (might be driving to Vegas in March) I'll have to hit it up.

Chris

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2021, 01:14:39 PM »

Since the GRIP was mentioned, I attempted to research it and found this map (December 2003):



Looking at the blue expansion corridors, it appears that the I-25 six laning to Santa Fe and US 54 four laning from Alamogordo to Santa Rosa were not completed, but the others have become four lane highways.

GRIP means Governor Richardsonís Investment Partnership. I've seen that abbreviation being used for 'Governor's Road Improvement Program' in other states, but in New Mexico the governor wanted to put his name in it.

https://nmceh.org/pages/reports/The_Governor's_Invest_New_Mexico.pdf

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2021, 04:09:06 PM »

Since the GRIP was mentioned, I attempted to research it and found this map (December 2003):



Looking at the blue expansion corridors, it appears that the I-25 six laning to Santa Fe and US 54 four laning from Alamogordo to Santa Rosa were not completed, but the others have become four lane highways.

GRIP means Governor Richardsonís Investment Partnership. I've seen that abbreviation being used for 'Governor's Road Improvement Program' in other states, but in New Mexico the governor wanted to put his name in it.

https://nmceh.org/pages/reports/The_Governor's_Invest_New_Mexico.pdf

The blue line along I-25 between Albuquerque and Sana Fe is a combination of I-25 widening and the $250 million boondoggle known at the Rail Runner Express. In the end, I-25 was widened from 4 lanes to 6 from Tramway Blvd in Albuquerque to US-550/NM-165 in Bernalillo. The Rail Runner was build along the entire corridor from ABQ to Santa Fe, mostly using an existing freight line, but a significant segment of of new tracks that utilizes the I-25 median between La Bajada and Santa Fe was built.

Also you notice the blue line for US-54 between Alamogordo and Vaughn. The original plan was to expand this segment of US-54 from 2 to 4 lanes as it handles a lot of truck traffic running between the ports of entry in El Paso and I-40 in Santa Rosa. What has been done so far was building a new roadway for US-54, and removing the old roadway without expanding to to 4 lanes. There is still about 17 miles of old US-54 roadway between Ancho and Corona that has yet to be reconstructed.


« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 09:30:27 AM by andy3175 »
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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2021, 08:14:45 AM »

Richardson (former Energy Secretary in the Clinton Administration, and NM Governor (Jan '03 - Jan '11) had an enormous ego.  Personally believed he possessed the talents and skill set to be President, but scandals such as "pay to play" and other budgetary episodes dimmed his star.   He did run in the '08 election cycle, but petered out in the primaries.   He could have done so much, surface infrastructure wise, as the NM Governor, had he focused on highways only, dismissed "practical design" and raised the fuel tax.  Squandered opportunity and the end result = state highways still among worst in the country. 
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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2021, 02:26:11 PM »

Since the GRIP was mentioned, I attempted to research it and found this map (December 2003):




Somewhat surprised to see NM has no plans to do anything with US 60/84 between Fort Sumner and Clovis. That combined with US 84 from Santa Rosa is part of a bigger long-distance corridor connecting the inland west to Lubbock, Abilene, and the metro areas in the southern half of Texas (and east of there, too). I've been on it once and there was indeed a fair amount of traffic...which I imagine is quite a bit worse when Texas Tech is in session.

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2021, 06:58:42 AM »

Bo Oh man, I absolutely hated driving on that road between Raton and Clayton when it was just a 2-lane facility. There is hardly any trees out there at all, making the landscape appear wide open. But the terrain rolls enough there that the road dips and curves enough where it was hard to pass anyone with it being a 2-lane road. All it took was one slow-poke in an RV or some other vehicle to create a freaking traffic jam behind it. I'd often time my trips where I would drive that segment later at night with as little traffic as possible to avoid the slow pokes. With the road being 4-laned and divided the slow pokes are no longer an issue. BTW, I don't know why they still bother with the "safety corridor" thing around Mount Dora now that the road is 4-laned and divided.


Right there with you. That was always the worst part of the drive due to everything you said on addition to the speed limit. I imagine the safety corridor exists so Des Moines and Grenville can continue to work out an undeserved existence. IMHO if your town can only exist due to pulling speeders over, your town doesn't deserve to exist anymore.
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abqtraveler

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2021, 09:29:12 AM »


BTW, I don't know why they still bother with the "safety corridor" thing around Mount Dora now that the road is 4-laned and divided.

The Safety Corridor is just an excuse for the New Mexico State police to set up speed traps in the area, since fines are doubled in Safety Corridors. It's a money-making racket for the state.

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2021, 09:42:48 AM »


BTW, I don't know why they still bother with the "safety corridor" thing around Mount Dora now that the road is 4-laned and divided.

The Safety Corridor is just an excuse for the New Mexico State police to set up speed traps in the area, since fines are doubled in Safety Corridors. It's a money-making racket for the state.

Yep. And they even have them on interstates. I know there is one on I-40 somewhere east of Gallup ... on a segment that looks no different from any of the rest of 40 through western NM.

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2021, 10:20:04 AM »


BTW, I don't know why they still bother with the "safety corridor" thing around Mount Dora now that the road is 4-laned and divided.

The Safety Corridor is just an excuse for the New Mexico State police to set up speed traps in the area, since fines are doubled in Safety Corridors. It's a money-making racket for the state.

Yep. And they even have them on interstates. I know there is one on I-40 somewhere east of Gallup ... on a segment that looks no different from any of the rest of 40 through western NM.

There's another one on I-40 around Santa Rosa. Years ago, there used to be a Safety Corridor on I-40 between Moriarty and Tijeras, but I think they eliminated that one when the reconstructed I-40 through that area around the 2010 timeframe.
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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2021, 09:54:45 PM »


BTW, I don't know why they still bother with the "safety corridor" thing around Mount Dora now that the road is 4-laned and divided.



The Safety Corridor is just an excuse for the New Mexico State police to set up speed traps in the area, since fines are doubled in Safety Corridors. It's a money-making racket for the state.



Smart move with all the Texans driving 90. If they don't have the wherewithal to slow down, they get what is coming to them.
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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2021, 11:20:23 PM »

New Mexico is the only state I worked in where I didnít feel like a State Route was necessarily an assurance of a quality highway.  The surface maintenance is a long known problem and is among the worst (if not the worst) on average in the country.  US Routes and Interstates are at least maintained enough to not cause major problems, but that isnít the case on a lot of State Routes.  I also believe New Mexico has one of the largest inventories of gravel surface State highways.

Arkansas has some dirt State Highways.....
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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2021, 11:29:24 PM »

New Mexico is the only state I worked in where I didnít feel like a State Route was necessarily an assurance of a quality highway.  The surface maintenance is a long known problem and is among the worst (if not the worst) on average in the country.  US Routes and Interstates are at least maintained enough to not cause major problems, but that isnít the case on a lot of State Routes.  I also believe New Mexico has one of the largest inventories of gravel surface State highways.

Arkansas has some dirt State Highways.....

I donít necessarily think dirt state highways are bad.  Until recently AZ 88 the was a fantastic dirt state highway.  It was well graded and meant to act as a service road for the Salt River Project.  The presence of ADOT sure made it far more reliable than the standard dirt road.  Too bad the recent heavy rains might change that given an segment is indefinitely closed. 
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kphoger

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2021, 02:04:14 PM »

Arkansas has some dirt State Highways.....

What ones are dirt?
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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2021, 01:42:19 PM »

New Mexico is the only state I worked in where I didnít feel like a State Route was necessarily an assurance of a quality highway.  The surface maintenance is a long known problem and is among the worst (if not the worst) on average in the country.  US Routes and Interstates are at least maintained enough to not cause major problems, but that isnít the case on a lot of State Routes.  I also believe New Mexico has one of the largest inventories of gravel surface State highways.

Arkansas has some dirt State Highways.....
AR 310 once had an unpaved section west of Pickens and east of Sidon well up into the 1980's. The Elbow mountain sharp curve was realigned when it got paved.
But getting back to the Raton Pass, the New Mexico side is definitely dreadful; the Colorado side is much better. Also, the extremely short on / off ramps are dangerous as well. It's basically RIRO. 
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2021, 06:15:44 PM »

Is there any way to turn the "sad state" of Raton Pass into the "happy state" of Raton Pass? I mean, outside of repaving the damn roads?
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thenetwork

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2021, 09:42:00 PM »

Colorado does have some state highways on ratty shape (especially CO 139 over Douglas Pass the last time I drove it) but I would give the win to New Mexico handily.  Granted, Iím just referring to surface quality and not capacity.

I have to agree on CO-139 North of Douglas Pass needing some major rehab.  South of the pass (past the switchbacks) and outside of Garfield County, the road is in decent shape.  At least when CDOT is resurfacing CO-139 and it's next closest parallel route, CO-13, most of the time they are doing full rebuilds -- tearing out the old roadbed, widening the road and adding full shoulders.    There's even a few newer sections of CO-13 that are CONCRETE, while one section just south of Meeker is just starting to get a tad ragged (but it is over 12 years old).

Meanwhile, in NM, once a section of road is rebuilt, they totally ignore any type of maintenance ‐‐ not even sweeping the weeds, dirt and gravel off the raised medians that were stamped and painted to look better than dull medians (cough cough US-64).
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aboges26

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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2021, 01:56:27 PM »

Colorado does have some state highways on ratty shape (especially CO 139 over Douglas Pass the last time I drove it) but I would give the win to New Mexico handily.  Granted, Iím just referring to surface quality and not capacity.

I have to agree on CO-139 North of Douglas Pass needing some major rehab.  South of the pass (past the switchbacks) and outside of Garfield County, the road is in decent shape.  At least when CDOT is resurfacing CO-139 and it's next closest parallel route, CO-13, most of the time they are doing full rebuilds -- tearing out the old roadbed, widening the road and adding full shoulders.    There's even a few newer sections of CO-13 that are CONCRETE, while one section just south of Meeker is just starting to get a tad ragged (but it is over 12 years old).

Meanwhile, in NM, once a section of road is rebuilt, they totally ignore any type of maintenance ‐‐ not even sweeping the weeds, dirt and gravel off the raised medians that were stamped and painted to look better than dull medians (cough cough US-64).

That's why Farmington entered into an agreement with NMDOT to maintain the medians along NM 516 where it is signed along East Main yet the potholes / road failures in the left lanes going both ways take forever to get any kind of fix from the DOT yet the medians look pristine.
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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2021, 02:55:42 PM »

I just drove Raton pass, and I had no idea that RIROs were a thing on interstate highways! I saw an 18 wheeler try and negotiate one, and that looked absolutely dreadful.
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Re: The sad state of Raton Pass
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2021, 11:47:11 PM »

I just drove Raton pass, and I had no idea that RIROs were a thing on interstate highways! I saw an 18 wheeler try and negotiate one, and that looked absolutely dreadful.
On the Colorado side, there are a few RIROs around Raton Pass, and notably another one at Exit 106 north of Pueblo. They are in spots where I-25 was built directly over US-85, which was at the time a 4-lane divided highway with at-grade intersections in those areas. They simply eliminated the median crossings to prevent left turns and built underpasses nearby to allow motorists to get from one side of the highway to the other.
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