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Author Topic: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown  (Read 20701 times)

silverback1065

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #150 on: May 17, 2021, 09:30:40 AM »

Heads are probably going to roll on this one. :spin:

Just the scapegoats  :pan: :evilgrin:

The irony is it isn't the state's DOT that is to blame. It is the low bidder engineering firm (contractor) who did the inspection.
Engineering firms are not supposed to selected by low bid, but rather by who is the most qualified.

kinda both honestly. whoever is most qualified and has the most reasonable price.
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #151 on: May 17, 2021, 09:51:42 AM »

Saw on FB, courtesy Freeway Jim, that on I-30 East in Texarkana at Four States Fair Blvd. the VMS informs motorists the bridge is closed.  It advises drivers to seek alternatives to I-40 in Memphis.
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #152 on: May 17, 2021, 11:09:35 AM »

Paragould to Kennett is only 2 lanes.

Paragould to the state line has been 5-laned.  There's a couple of 2-lane pockets west of Paragould (neither lasts for very long)...the main stretch of 2 lane is now from the state line to Kennett.
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US71

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #153 on: May 17, 2021, 02:11:59 PM »

1:02 pm  17 May

ARDOT has just announced  a scapegoat  an employee has been terminated in connection with the bridge problem.  It appears the problem dates back to around August 2019, but was not reported.

The Federal Highway Administration will be working with ARDOT to correct the flaws in their inspection process. All bridges that were inspected by the terinated employee will be reinspected.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 02:52:17 PM by US71 »
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US71

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #154 on: May 17, 2021, 07:36:16 PM »

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #155 on: May 17, 2021, 09:44:04 PM »

Sounds to me like it’s going to be shut down for a while.
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #156 on: May 17, 2021, 10:07:14 PM »

Here is the drone footage of the ArDOT inspection from 2019. How could you miss this?


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US71

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #157 on: May 17, 2021, 10:12:55 PM »

Here is the drone footage of the ArDOT inspection from 2019. How could you miss this?




Someone wasn't paying attention.
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #158 on: May 18, 2021, 02:17:08 AM »

I wonder even after the I-40 bridge is repaired and open to traffic they'll impose capacity restrictions like fewer available lanes for traffic or vehicle weight limits?
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Avalanchez71

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #159 on: May 18, 2021, 07:38:35 AM »

I see negligence in that video.  That crack is way visible to the eye of a reasonable person.
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kalvado

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #160 on: May 18, 2021, 08:08:04 AM »

I see negligence in that video.  That crack is way visible to the eye of a reasonable person.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
2. Crack is pretty straight, easy to confuse with the structural thing at a glance. There is a similar line on the other side at the edge of a plate - which is just the edge of a plate

I really wonder if something from 2017 inspection would surface...
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #161 on: May 18, 2021, 09:18:57 AM »

https://www.google.com/search?q=little+rock+ar+to+nashville+tn&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

I see Google reroutes EB travelers through city streets to connect back to I-40 once in Memphis.  I would think to stay on I-55 to I-240 East would be better.
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #162 on: May 18, 2021, 10:57:09 AM »

How would this be repaired?
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #164 on: May 18, 2021, 11:02:24 AM »

Interesting opinion article on CNN from an engineer who worked on this bridge developing a system to monitor the seismic performance.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/17/opinions/memphis-i40-bridge-crack-future-problems-abdelnaby/index.html
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #165 on: May 18, 2021, 11:18:49 AM »

Crump Blvd has several advantages. First you bypass the heinous exit onto I-55 SB. Then it is a good bit more direct (closer) It is 4 lanes. If the traffic signals are set up correctly, it should take less than ten minutes in heavy traffic to be on I-69. It is about two and a half miles to I-69 (former I-240). Crump Blvd is US-79, US-64, and TN-1.

Following US-79 all the way to Sam Cooper Blvd as opposed to taking I-69 up to I-40 might even be quicker. ( Sam Cooper Blvd is a freeway stub that was planned to be I-40 but was never completed. It connects to I-40 on the east side of Memphis)


https://www.google.com/search?q=little+rock+ar+to+nashville+tn&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

I see Google reroutes EB travelers through city streets to connect back to I-40 once in Memphis.  I would think to stay on I-55 to I-240 East would be better.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 11:25:15 AM by bwana39 »
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EngineerTM

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #166 on: May 18, 2021, 12:08:19 PM »

I see negligence in that video.  That crack is way visible to the eye of a reasonable person.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
2. Crack is pretty straight, easy to confuse with the structural thing at a glance. There is a similar line on the other side at the edge of a plate - which is just the edge of a plate

I really wonder if something from 2017 inspection would surface...

I disagree with you on both your points.  I'm a licensed professional engineer and certified bridge inspection team leader with years of bridge inspection experience.  There is no way that a qualified and competent bridge inspector should have failed to recognize that cracking in the 2019 drone video as a critical find needing immediate attention.  From what I've been able to gather I offer the following observations:

1. In one of ARDOT's new briefings, they stated that a consulting firm (whom I'm not going to name right now) was responsible for taking that video and that the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

2. The drone video did linger long enough on that fracture critical tension tie girder for a long enough period that it should easily have been recognized as being a serious, potentially catastrophic condition.

3. Rarely do inspection firms simply record drone footage and then send them to a DOT with nothing more than a "here you go" attitude.  Someone such as the project manager or responsible bridge inspection team leader would (or should) have reviewed all the collected drone video data.  If the firm collecting the drone data missed that crack or failed to follow up with appropriate additional inspections or notification, then I seriously question their qualifications and quality assurance/quality control protocols.  If it was negligence, laziness, an attitude of "it's not in my project scope", or something similar, then I fully support having that bridge inspector (or others) notified to authorities for a criminal investigation.  I also think that if any of those individuals are licensed professional engineers, then they should also be referred to their state licensing board for further investigation.

4. That crack is not "pretty straight" or "easily to confuse" to a professionally trained and properly qualified bridge inspector.

From what was also reported at that news conference, FHWA is going to be doing a comprehensive review of the entire ARDOT bridge inspection program - and rightfully so.  I also expect that all the FHWA representatives with every state DOT are going to be sharing these findings and carrying out some measure of additional review.

The most important role of any licensed professional engineer is placing public safety and trust above all else.
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kalvado

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #167 on: May 18, 2021, 12:36:57 PM »

I see negligence in that video.  That crack is way visible to the eye of a reasonable person.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
2. Crack is pretty straight, easy to confuse with the structural thing at a glance. There is a similar line on the other side at the edge of a plate - which is just the edge of a plate

I really wonder if something from 2017 inspection would surface...

I disagree with you on both your points.  I'm a licensed professional engineer and certified bridge inspection team leader with years of bridge inspection experience.  There is no way that a qualified and competent bridge inspector should have failed to recognize that cracking in the 2019 drone video as a critical find needing immediate attention.  From what I've been able to gather I offer the following observations:

1. In one of ARDOT's new briefings, they stated that a consulting firm (whom I'm not going to name right now) was responsible for taking that video and that the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

2. The drone video did linger long enough on that fracture critical tension tie girder for a long enough period that it should easily have been recognized as being a serious, potentially catastrophic condition.

3. Rarely do inspection firms simply record drone footage and then send them to a DOT with nothing more than a "here you go" attitude.  Someone such as the project manager or responsible bridge inspection team leader would (or should) have reviewed all the collected drone video data.  If the firm collecting the drone data missed that crack or failed to follow up with appropriate additional inspections or notification, then I seriously question their qualifications and quality assurance/quality control protocols.  If it was negligence, laziness, an attitude of "it's not in my project scope", or something similar, then I fully support having that bridge inspector (or others) notified to authorities for a criminal investigation.  I also think that if any of those individuals are licensed professional engineers, then they should also be referred to their state licensing board for further investigation.

4. That crack is not "pretty straight" or "easily to confuse" to a professionally trained and properly qualified bridge inspector.

From what was also reported at that news conference, FHWA is going to be doing a comprehensive review of the entire ARDOT bridge inspection program - and rightfully so.  I also expect that all the FHWA representatives with every state DOT are going to be sharing these findings and carrying out some measure of additional review.

The most important role of any licensed professional engineer is placing public safety and trust above all else.

Pathetic statements always remind me to add some salt - couple tablespoons or so - to the rest of the story.  Of course, there is something coming up after that salt is added. For example:

K: 1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
E: I disagree with you on both your points. .... the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

So you disagree with my point and then repeat the same statement quoting the agency? Great job, I sure hope you pay a bit more attention to bridges!

Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

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EngineerTM

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #168 on: May 18, 2021, 01:05:15 PM »

Quote
Pathetic statements always remind me to add some salt - couple tablespoons or so - to the rest of the story.  Of course, there is something coming up after that salt is added. For example:

K: 1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
E: I disagree with you on both your points. .... the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

So you disagree with my point and then repeat the same statement quoting the agency? Great job, I sure hope you pay a bit more attention to bridges!

Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

You completely ignored my second point about the inspection focus - specifically that while the inspection focus was on other components, the drone video did linger long enough on that failing member and that a COMPETENT bridge inspector should have recognized this as a serious condition.  Apparently reading comprehension is difficult for you.  It doesn't matter what the ~focus~ of the inspection scope was - the video evidence was there and it should have been recognized for what it was at the time that the drone video data was either collected or reviewed.

Throughout my career, I've identified defects such as this in their early stages well before a closure was required and well before the public was put at risk and with ample time to take corrective actions that didn't require closing the bridge.  So yes, I take bridge inspection very seriously and pay attention to what I'm inspecting.  And while I've been on inspections that may have been focusing on certain areas, I still observe everything around it to see if anything looks off.  That is what a well trained and qualified bridge inspector does (or should be doing).

"Humans are prone to mistakes..."  When it comes to public safety, I take this way more serious than you seem to do with your apparent flippant statement.  This time, ARDOT, TDOT, and every motorist on that bridge got lucky that there wasn't a catastrophic failure.  I wonder if you would have been so understanding to the poor plight of the inspector who failed in his basic duties had it resulted in emergency services pulling bodies out of the river.  Most of the public takes for granted that the bridges that they drive over are safe and reliable.  That is why bridge inspections are done following procedures and regulations that have long been defined by federal law.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #169 on: May 18, 2021, 01:08:17 PM »

I see negligence in that video.  That crack is way visible to the eye of a reasonable person.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
2. Crack is pretty straight, easy to confuse with the structural thing at a glance. There is a similar line on the other side at the edge of a plate - which is just the edge of a plate

I really wonder if something from 2017 inspection would surface...

I disagree with you on both your points.  I'm a licensed professional engineer and certified bridge inspection team leader with years of bridge inspection experience.  There is no way that a qualified and competent bridge inspector should have failed to recognize that cracking in the 2019 drone video as a critical find needing immediate attention.  From what I've been able to gather I offer the following observations:

1. In one of ARDOT's new briefings, they stated that a consulting firm (whom I'm not going to name right now) was responsible for taking that video and that the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

2. The drone video did linger long enough on that fracture critical tension tie girder for a long enough period that it should easily have been recognized as being a serious, potentially catastrophic condition.

3. Rarely do inspection firms simply record drone footage and then send them to a DOT with nothing more than a "here you go" attitude.  Someone such as the project manager or responsible bridge inspection team leader would (or should) have reviewed all the collected drone video data.  If the firm collecting the drone data missed that crack or failed to follow up with appropriate additional inspections or notification, then I seriously question their qualifications and quality assurance/quality control protocols.  If it was negligence, laziness, an attitude of "it's not in my project scope", or something similar, then I fully support having that bridge inspector (or others) notified to authorities for a criminal investigation.  I also think that if any of those individuals are licensed professional engineers, then they should also be referred to their state licensing board for further investigation.

4. That crack is not "pretty straight" or "easily to confuse" to a professionally trained and properly qualified bridge inspector.

From what was also reported at that news conference, FHWA is going to be doing a comprehensive review of the entire ARDOT bridge inspection program - and rightfully so.  I also expect that all the FHWA representatives with every state DOT are going to be sharing these findings and carrying out some measure of additional review.

The most important role of any licensed professional engineer is placing public safety and trust above all else.

Pathetic statements always remind me to add some salt - couple tablespoons or so - to the rest of the story.  Of course, there is something coming up after that salt is added. For example:

K: 1. they were focused on a different area. Very clear from the video.
E: I disagree with you on both your points. .... the inspection focus was on the suspension rods and upper framing.

So you disagree with my point and then repeat the same statement quoting the agency? Great job, I sure hope you pay a bit more attention to bridges!

Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

The issue is the court of public opinion is not going to agree with this.  They will be focused on the reasonable person doctrine.  A reasonable person not learned in bridge engineering can clearly see the fracture in plain sight.
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EngineerTM

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #170 on: May 18, 2021, 01:13:08 PM »

Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

While humans are prone to mistakes, competent firms and agencies put quality control and quality assurance review policies into practice to help mitigate human error as much as feasible.  This was a significant failure that should not have happened, and it should not result in only one inspector losing their job.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 01:33:31 PM by EngineerTM »
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kalvado

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #171 on: May 18, 2021, 01:49:19 PM »

Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

While humans are prone to mistakes, competent firms and and agencies put quality control and quality assurance review policies into practice to help mitigate human error as much as feasible.  This was a significant failure that should not have happened, and it should not result in only one inspector losing their job.

Lets try again - quality control is not applicable to items beyond the scope of work. Which was - "suspension rods and upper framing."
 I am sure inspection checklists for "suspension rods and upper framing." are completed, and there are no issues reported with those items. Once again - with that in mind, what is  exactly you point about quality control here?
 If anything, a bridge inspection crane could be used for below-deck work and that could be where they spot the issue. Was that part of inspection in 2019? 
I wouldn't be surprised if videos for engineering review were trimmed off, with river views and landing removed - or fast-forwarded by reviewer.

And on a more general aspect here:

From my experience, there is one thing which US engineering puts above everything else - above safety, above trust, above common sense: COMPLIANCE. Safety may be a distant second, if that.
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US71

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #172 on: May 18, 2021, 02:00:25 PM »

Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

While humans are prone to mistakes, competent firms and agencies put quality control and quality assurance review policies into practice to help mitigate human error as much as feasible.  This was a significant failure that should not have happened, and it should not result in only one inspector losing their job.

Things get old, they break, though something is not right if you miss a critical problem.  If this problem had been found 2-3 years ago, would the bridge have been closed for repairs?
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #173 on: May 18, 2021, 02:40:05 PM »

Humans are prone to mistakes, like it or hate it...

While humans are prone to mistakes, competent firms and agencies put quality control and quality assurance review policies into practice to help mitigate human error as much as feasible.  This was a significant failure that should not have happened, and it should not result in only one inspector losing their job.

Things get old, they break, though something is not right if you miss a critical problem.  If this problem had been found 2-3 years ago, would the bridge have been closed for repairs?

I say no.  They would let it go as long as there was no major catastrophe.  That's why I find all this so comical.  It's not the failure in the inspection, its the failure to do something about it.  Didn't the I-35W bridge get a structurally deficient grade before it collapsed?  As long as there is no issue right now, let it go!
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #174 on: May 18, 2021, 04:23:32 PM »

I still do not see where this member actually supports anything. There are far too few rivets actually holding it to the support (rod or cable). I still believe if it has any function at all it is  horizontal stabilization. Meaning keeping the actual deck supports from torsioning (twisting, dancing ...think swinging your hips doing the twist but on a MUCH smaller scale). I think this feature is primarily to support the deck support beam during a maintenance operation that removes the suspension cable / rod. It would also lend some redundancy if a support cable / rod failed. This torsioning would explain the break too.

This design is too far off the beaten path to just say, this is how the books say it works.  I realize I am only positing guesses.  I want to figure out how the design works maybe to confirm my theories, and maybe to see what the real risk actually was. I am not going to suggest that they should have left it open, but really knowing how serious it actually is / was.

As to the 2019 video, it was not what he was looking at/for. He may have fast forwarded to the part he was looking for. The cable and the truss.  Even if he had seen it as he was quickly looking for what he was tasked to look at, he might have mistaken it for a scratch in the paint, or debris, even bird poop (yes, I know that bird poop is a stretch.)

Again, I wish I knew how the weight is supposed to be distributed on this thing.

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