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Author Topic: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown  (Read 22967 times)

bwana39

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #250 on: June 12, 2021, 11:22:27 AM »

Newsflash, Avalanchez:  tolls ARE user fees.  You only pay the toll if you use the facility.

If there is a free alternative then I can see it as a user fee.  If there is not a free alternative then it is an extortion fee.

Just about the only toll roads in the US without any sort of free alternative are bridges. Big bridges are expensive. Given your general lack of desire to spend taxpayer money on upgrading/widening/new construction, how else are we supposed to be able to build and maintain those?

Only one of Oklahoma's turnpikes doesn't have a free alternative (Indian Nation). Turner and Will Rogers have OK66, Cherokee has US412 Scenic, Cimarron has US64, Muskogee also has US64, and the H.E. Bailey has US277. All 3 urban pikes have local street choices.

Yes north of Antlers, the Indian Nation is pretty much the sole route. That said, it is a low use route. If I were guessing, I would guess the segment south of McAlester it is among if not the lowest use rural freeway period.  I don't think the tolls are the issue either.  The traffic pattern basically is from southeast to northwest when the predominance of the traffic goes generally south to north or toward the northeast.  It is some busier north of McAlester, but that is the US-75 traffic going to Tulsa and points north on the US-169 corridor,
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 05:59:42 PM by bwana39 »
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sparker

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #251 on: June 12, 2021, 06:01:19 PM »

Newsflash, Avalanchez:  tolls ARE user fees.  You only pay the toll if you use the facility.

If there is a free alternative then I can see it as a user fee.  If there is not a free alternative then it is an extortion fee.

Just about the only toll roads in the US without any sort of free alternative are bridges. Big bridges are expensive. Given your general lack of desire to spend taxpayer money on upgrading/widening/new construction, how else are we supposed to be able to build and maintain those?

Only one of Oklahoma's turnpikes doesn't have a free alternative (Indian Nation). Turner and Will Rogers have OK66, Cherokee has US412 Scenic, Cimarron has US64, Muskogee also has US64, and the H.E. Bailey has US277. All 3 urban pikes have local street choices.

Yes north of Antlers, the Indian Nation is pretty much the sole route. That said, it is a low use route. If I were guessing, I would guess the south of McAlester it is among if not the lowest use rural freeway period.  I don't think the tolls are the issue either.  The traffic pattern basically is from southeast to northwest when the predominance of the traffic goes generally south to north or toward the northeast.  It is some busier north of McAlester, but that is the US-75 traffic going to Tulsa and points north on the US-169 corridor,

I've driven the INT from Henryetta down to Antlers numerous times (lotsa relatives in the Broken Bow/Idabel area); there have been stretches where I haven't seen another vehicle going in my direction either on the horizon or in my rear-view mirror -- it's pretty desolate out there.  It's obvious that at some point someone in SE AR raised enough of a fuss about the lack of connectivity and the southern reaches of the INT were developed as a result.  My observation is that at least half of the SB traffic exits at US 69; NB traffic certainly picks up dramatically north of there as well (being the direct route to and from Tulsa doesn't hurt!).  Don't see the southern part's usage changing much; it would probably take some sort of extension well into TX to kick the traffic flow up -- and AFAIK that isn't on anyone's radar!
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NE2

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #252 on: June 12, 2021, 06:05:42 PM »

Do you think that after the DeSoto Bridge is repaired that traffic will flow more evenly across both bridges?  Will some folks go look I didn't realize there was another convenient crossing?
according to TN traffic counts for 1985- 2018, I-55 and I-40 bridges had about equal traffic counts till 2013.
In 2014 things suddenly change to 35-40% I-40  - 60-65% I-55
I wonder why...
That's when I-40 was being rebuilt at I-240 (west end).

sparker

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #253 on: June 12, 2021, 08:43:45 PM »

Do you think that after the DeSoto Bridge is repaired that traffic will flow more evenly across both bridges?  Will some folks go look I didn't realize there was another convenient crossing?
according to TN traffic counts for 1985- 2018, I-55 and I-40 bridges had about equal traffic counts till 2013.
In 2014 things suddenly change to 35-40% I-40  - 60-65% I-55
I wonder why...
That's when I-40 was being rebuilt at I-240 (west end).

Understandable that most commuters would tend to avoid the construction zone in central Memphis during the reconfiguration of 40/240.  But have there been more recent traffic counts -- pre DeSoto bridge issues, of course -- that have indicated any sort of equalization between the bridges?  Also, as a side issue, are the traffic counts on each bridge broken down between commercial trucks and autos?  Because of the location of the FedEx hub off I-240 east of I-55, one would expect the percentage of trucks using the M&A/I-55 bridge to be significantly higher, regardless of the longstanding Crump negotiation issues. 
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Wayward Memphian

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #254 on: June 14, 2021, 12:17:38 AM »

It looks like Tenn will have pulled a two lane exit to stay on I-55 after crossing into Memphis out of their ass by the end of this week.
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sparker

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #255 on: June 14, 2021, 02:03:52 AM »

It looks like Tenn will have pulled a two lane exit to stay on I-55 after crossing into Memphis out of their ass by the end of this week.

Hope they washed it off first! :-P Now -- if they can snag a NB flyover from the same source, that would qualify as a real feat!
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #256 on: June 14, 2021, 11:28:13 AM »

It looks like Tenn will have pulled a two lane exit to stay on I-55 after crossing into Memphis out of their ass by the end of this week.

Hope they washed it off first! :-P Now -- if they can snag a NB flyover from the same source, that would qualify as a real feat!

Not the long-term solution for the I-55/Crump interchange, but it will certainly help move things along until the get the I-40 bridge reopened.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #257 on: June 14, 2021, 01:32:38 PM »

Could the difference in the usage be that the fuzz is hotter at the chicken coup on the I-55 leg?
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Wayward Memphian

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #258 on: June 15, 2021, 09:17:54 AM »

The interstate shootings are everywhere. The MPD has had patrol cars sitting along every segment of 55/40/240/TN385.

On a sad note I helped tend to a dying girl that was in a wreck on Mt. Moriah. She was doing approx 60 to 70 mph in a Lexus ls350 when someone pulled out in front of her. She was texting and never slowed. By the time the paramedics arrived, she was gone. That is a 40mph zone. Point is...Memphis is a speed crazed madhouse these days. That segment of Mt. Mariah between 240 and Park is constantly used by drag racers. They really need to go in and introduce traffic calming measures. I have had to spend way too much time in Memohis due to my Mother's health issues and the crap I have seenbin 4 weeks time in city surpasses all that I have seen in 30 years of travel elsewhere in the US and Europe and I am someone that will take full advantage of the cushion the Troopers in Arkansas give you.
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sprjus4

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #259 on: June 15, 2021, 11:11:38 AM »

Oh, I just assumed the MPD’s constant presence was to enforce the artificially low 55 mph limit that no one follows.
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cjw2001

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triplemultiplex

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #261 on: June 15, 2021, 01:41:11 PM »

Good find cjw.  That was a very good explanation of what happened from an engineering perspective.
It's one thing to have folks on here who can write in detail about this subject, but a video is so much more accessible and the visual aids were a tremendous help for those with a more 'grade school' understanding of bridge engineering. ;)
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #262 on: June 15, 2021, 07:30:35 PM »

On a sad note I helped tend to a dying girl that was in a wreck on Mt. Moriah. She was doing approx 60 to 70 mph in a Lexus ls350 when someone pulled out in front of her. She was texting and never slowed. By the time the paramedics arrived, she was gone. That is a 40mph zone. Point is...Memphis is a speed crazed madhouse these days. That segment of Mt. Mariah between 240 and Park is constantly used by drag racers. They really need to go in and introduce traffic calming measures. I have had to spend way too much time in Memohis due to my Mother's health issues and the crap I have seenbin 4 weeks time in city surpasses all that I have seen in 30 years of travel elsewhere in the US and Europe and I am someone that will take full advantage of the cushion the Troopers in Arkansas give you.

When I was in Memphis a couple of weeks ago, my wife and I had dinner with a soon-to-be-retired MPD colonel (friend of the family).  We compared notes on how driver aggression has changed with the pandemic.   I had to point out that while stupid driving seems to be up throughout North America....well, pre-pandemic in my travels the most aggressve drivers I encountered were found in West Tennessee....but so far post-pandemic the most aggressive drivers I've seen have been in Connecticut (although I've only recently begun traveling).

(At least I-91 hasn't turned into a gunnery range like I-240!)
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Rothman

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #263 on: June 15, 2021, 10:02:45 PM »

CT has always been the worst.
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edwaleni

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #264 on: June 15, 2021, 11:28:53 PM »

Not to stray too far off thread...but all states have been reporting driver rage incidents have increased during and post-COVID.

I don't think it is limited to just one locale like West Tennessee.

This is also paralleled by the sudden rise in in-flight disruptions and incidents nationally.

Psychologically, most of it can be sourced to the high levels of uncertainty people have had to endure.

That lack of certainty tends to draw down ones capacity for patience over time.

Lack of patience leads too.......
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US71

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kalvado

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #266 on: June 16, 2021, 03:30:45 PM »

U.S. says steel in I-40 bridge prone to crack

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/16/us-says-steel-in-i-40-bridge-prone-to-crack/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers&utm_content=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers+CID_62db35dff35db4c0f3f853b5a4c94004&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=US%20says%20steel%20in%20I-40%20bridge%20prone%20to%20crack
Not that I am surprised.  Somewhat similar situation in a previous accident of Delaware bridge crack (NJ/PA turnpike):
https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Doing-Business/Reports/Highways/Bridges/20170224%20-%20Closure%20of%20I-276%20Delaware%20River%20Bridge%20Event%20Report.pdf
Quote
Plans called for the use of A-94 silicon steel; however, shop drawings indicate that a U.S. Steel proprietary alloy called Man-Ten was substituted for A-94 during construction.  At this time we cannot find an ASTM reference for Man-Ten.  Spec sheets from US Steel for Man-Ten indicate it is not suitable for spot welding, with weld locations having markedly lower toughness. 
....
Causes of the Fracture:
The FHWA believes it is unlikely that a single or satisfying answer will be determined as to the cause of the sudden fracture.

So... Shit happens!
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bwana39

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #268 on: June 16, 2021, 05:13:59 PM »

U.S. says steel in I-40 bridge prone to crack

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/16/us-says-steel-in-i-40-bridge-prone-to-crack/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers&utm_content=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers+CID_62db35dff35db4c0f3f853b5a4c94004&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=US%20says%20steel%20in%20I-40%20bridge%20prone%20to%20crack

Good write up. This writer actually did some research on the issues with butt welding with T1 steel along with historical data.

 The bottom line is truss type bridges use as little welding as possible.  When Caltrava built the Hunt Bridge in Dallas, he worried so much about the welding that he brought welders in from Spain.  (As an aside, the Dallas Bridges  are actually deck bridges with decorative cable stays.  On the newer McDermott bridge, the cable portion has been a real problem. ) 

Back to welding bridge members, it is a tricky position. Most of the joints are secured using plates that span the joint and either bolts or rivets to secure them together. I have to imagine that these 900' beams were welded. Was this break at or adjacent to a weld? One would think.  I still wonder where the vertical motion that caused this break came from in an element that primarily has horizontal function.

Then again... Stuff happens.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 09:11:43 PM by bwana39 »
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kalvado

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #269 on: June 16, 2021, 05:55:03 PM »

U.S. says steel in I-40 bridge prone to crack

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/16/us-says-steel-in-i-40-bridge-prone-to-crack/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers&utm_content=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers+CID_62db35dff35db4c0f3f853b5a4c94004&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=US%20says%20steel%20in%20I-40%20bridge%20prone%20to%20crack

Good write up. This writer actually did some research on the issues with butt welding with T1 steel along with historical data.

Yes, but it looks like " Silicon Steel" ASTM A867 is not significantly better, It was an older heavier steel alloy. I would guess that they  selected the Man-ten to reduce weight.  The bottom line is truss type bridges use as little welding as possible.  When Caltrava built the Hunt Bridge in Dallas, he worried so much about the welding that he brought welders in from Spain.  (As an aside, the Dallas Bridges  are actually deck bridges with decorative cable stays.  On the newer McDermott bridge, the cable portion has been a real problem. ) 

Back to welding bridge members, it is a tricky position. Most of the joints are secured using plates that span the joint and either bolts or rivets to secure them together. I have to imagine that these 900' beams were welded. Was this break at or adjacent to a weld? One would think.  I still wonder where the vertical motion that caused this break came from in an element that primarily has horizontal function.

Then again... Stuff happens.
Just to clarify - Man-ten was in a different bridge, not I-40. Another fun fact, fragile strength of that steel dropped like a rock below water freezing temperature.
To me, these are all examples of how great and long-lasting structures could be built in imperfect world, and how things are just taken for granted.
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abqtraveler

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #270 on: June 17, 2021, 11:11:00 AM »

U.S. says steel in I-40 bridge prone to crack

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/16/us-says-steel-in-i-40-bridge-prone-to-crack/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers&utm_content=morning-6-16-21-nonsubscribers+CID_62db35dff35db4c0f3f853b5a4c94004&utm_source=Email%20Marketing%20Platform&utm_term=US%20says%20steel%20in%20I-40%20bridge%20prone%20to%20crack

Good write up. This writer actually did some research on the issues with butt welding with T1 steel along with historical data.

 The bottom line is truss type bridges use as little welding as possible.  When Caltrava built the Hunt Bridge in Dallas, he worried so much about the welding that he brought welders in from Spain.  (As an aside, the Dallas Bridges  are actually deck bridges with decorative cable stays.  On the newer McDermott bridge, the cable portion has been a real problem. ) 

Back to welding bridge members, it is a tricky position. Most of the joints are secured using plates that span the joint and either bolts or rivets to secure them together. I have to imagine that these 900' beams were welded. Was this break at or adjacent to a weld? One would think.  I still wonder where the vertical motion that caused this break came from in an element that primarily has horizontal function.

Then again... Stuff happens.

Welds create their own set of problems in that they are vulnerable to failure during periods of extreme thermal expansion and contraction. Point in fact, about 20 years ago a 130-foot section of the Hoan bridge in Milwaukee was imploded and rebuilt when welded joints in two of three girders that supported the northbound lanes failed during a episode of heavy snow and subzero temperatures. In addition to rebuilding the failed section, crews also extensively retrofitted the remainder of the Hoan Bridge to address the concerns with the welded joints to avoid a subsequent structural failure and extend the bridge's service life.
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mvak36

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #271 on: June 22, 2021, 01:02:06 AM »

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edwaleni

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #272 on: June 23, 2021, 12:49:57 AM »


Can't wait to read the metallurgical analysis of the fracture.  They will be able to date the fracture by the levels of oxidation.
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kalvado

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #273 on: June 23, 2021, 04:32:33 AM »


Can't wait to read the metallurgical analysis of the fracture.  They will be able to date the fracture by the levels of oxidation.
Probably not, oxidation would be somewhat self-limiting and non-uniform.
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edwaleni

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #274 on: June 23, 2021, 11:22:15 AM »


Can't wait to read the metallurgical analysis of the fracture.  They will be able to date the fracture by the levels of oxidation.
Probably not, oxidation would be somewhat self-limiting and non-uniform.

In 1939, the Commerce Department (predecessor to the FHA) produced a whitepaper explaining how to age and analyze oxidation of the steel used in bridges.

There is even a calculation based on variables that can be solved for time.

With today's spectrographic and micrographic technology, i would think it would be even easier now to pull the data.
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