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Author Topic: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown  (Read 22967 times)

MikeTheActuary

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2021, 10:05:00 PM »

Never been to Memphis, but this looks pretty bad from a traffic perspective.

There's no freeway connection  between the westbound I-40 closure point and access to I-55 northbound (really westbound here) to get across the river. I suppose the suggested detour will be I-240 to I-55?
I would hope TDOT is using VMSs along WB I-40, before reaching I-240, to have Arkansas-bound traffic use I-240 South as the preferred alternate to get to the I-55 bridge

And for EB I-40, use VMSs on I-55 South advising I-40 EB traffic to follow I-240 EB

If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN

I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.
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Revive 755

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2021, 10:19:27 PM »

I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.

There aren't any permanent message boards around Jackson, TN where traffic could divert up towards the I-155 bridge?
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sprjus4

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2021, 10:20:05 PM »

If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.
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sprjus4

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2021, 10:21:17 PM »

I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.

There aren't any permanent message boards around Jackson, TN where traffic could divert up towards the I-155 bridge?
I don’t think their main goal is to route traffic around Memphis, they’re merely just shifting onto the I-55 bridge. They may unofficially recommend it elsewhere, but on VMS and such, not sure if it’s appropriate. But who knows.
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ilpt4u

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2021, 10:24:01 PM »

If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.
Depending on travel times to cross the I-55 bridge (not sure of Memphis’s typical traffic patterns), a 1 hour diversion could be worth it at peak river crossing times
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sprjus4

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2021, 10:25:48 PM »

If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.
Depending on travel times to cross the I-55 bridge (not sure of Memphis’s typical traffic patterns), a 1 hour diversion could be worth it at peak river crossing times
True, but again, is it worth signing that as an official detour route, that far out, with that many directions?

Besides, I-40 -> I-55 -> I-155 is a faster route and more worthy of being an “official” detour.
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ilpt4u

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2021, 10:31:13 PM »

If Arkansas wanted to get really creative, it could advise Long Distance EB I-40 traffic at Little Rock to use US 67/Future I-57 to US 412 to reach the I-155/US 412 Bridge, and follow US 412 back to I-40 in Tennessee. Tennessee could sign the same Long Distance detour for WB I-40 traffic approaching Jackson, TN
Such a routing would add almost an hour to a trip and involve significant mileage on 2 lane roads. It might be a decent alternative made personally by someone to take, but too far out of the way and not viable to be signed something like on a VMS.
Depending on travel times to cross the I-55 bridge (not sure of Memphis’s typical traffic patterns), a 1 hour diversion could be worth it at peak river crossing times
True, but again, is it worth signing that as an official detour route, that far out, with that many directions?

Besides, I-40 -> I-55 -> I-155 is a faster route and more worthy of being an “official” detour.
Meh, when I checked Google Maps, the US 67 route was within 5 minutes of the I-55 route. At current time, it does add about 40-50 minutes of travel time

If I drove freight for a living, I’d take the longer route if I were due to hit Memphis at a “rush hour” time. Stop and Go traffic has its own hazards. Of course, these days, there are truckers out there that have a GPS-dictated route that cannot be deviated from
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edwaleni

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2021, 11:02:10 PM »

^

That looks very similar to what happened on the Delaware River Turnpike Toll Bridge in early 2017...I think that closure lasted a month & a half IIRC.

For reference:


You are right, they look identical. Stress fracture near a significant joint.
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NE2

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2021, 11:25:56 PM »

Why not let the free market operate as it should? Keep the bridge open and let every motorist decide for themselves whether it's worth the chance of collapse to save time.

MikeTheActuary

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2021, 12:15:38 AM »

I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.

There aren't any permanent message boards around Jackson, TN where traffic could divert up towards the I-155 bridge?

There weren't any VMSs when I last went through Jackson, just as things were locking down last year.

Nothing shows on SmartWay (I checked).
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Wayward Memphian

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2021, 12:43:11 AM »

From an article.

The New Bridge carried around 41k vehicles per day, 30% commercial trucks. The Old Bridge carries around 55K  with 14K being trucks. The smaller bridge already carried more traffic in normal times.

It has also closed barge traffic.and there's this
Quote

“It’s fortunate this fracture was discovered during a routine inspection and not as part of an investigation following a catastrophic incident,” Arkansas Trucking Association President Shannon Newton said in a statement. “However, it doesn’t change the fact that this closure will have a significant ripple effect on the already strained supply chain. Between increased consumer demand, the driver shortage and now a major bottleneck in Memphis, shippers and consumers across the country should be prepared for longer shipping times until the I-40 Hernando de Soto Bridge is re-opened.”



https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/highway-official-memphis-bridge-fracture-could-have-caused-catastrophic-event/
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sprjus4

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2021, 12:56:57 AM »

I suppose it's a good thing I-40 hadn't carried more traffic. Imagine something like 70,000 or 100,000 AADT... even more load (no pun intended) being put on the I-55 bridge.
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2021, 07:57:38 AM »

I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.

There aren't any permanent message boards around Jackson, TN where traffic could divert up towards the I-155 bridge?

Probably not yet.  They are in the process of six-lane widening I-40 in the vicinity of Jackson.  I would assume that the finished product would include sone sort of permanent overhead VMSs.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 04:05:25 PM by wriddle082 »
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ilpt4u

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2021, 08:44:05 AM »

Since all traffic is using the I-55 bridge, shifting some I-55 Thru Traffic wouldn't hurt either. Would TDOT and KYTC recommend using US 51/Future I-69 to either the I-155 Bridge or continuing up I-69, depending on route? And southbound, MoDOT advise the I-155 to US 51 route as the "Alternate" route to Memphis due to delays at the now-single Memphis Mississippi River Bridge?
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US71

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edwaleni

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2021, 12:17:18 PM »

From an article.

The New Bridge carried around 41k vehicles per day, 30% commercial trucks. The Old Bridge carries around 55K  with 14K being trucks. The smaller bridge already carried more traffic in normal times.

It has also closed barge traffic.and there's this
Quote

“It’s fortunate this fracture was discovered during a routine inspection and not as part of an investigation following a catastrophic incident,” Arkansas Trucking Association President Shannon Newton said in a statement. “However, it doesn’t change the fact that this closure will have a significant ripple effect on the already strained supply chain. Between increased consumer demand, the driver shortage and now a major bottleneck in Memphis, shippers and consumers across the country should be prepared for longer shipping times until the I-40 Hernando de Soto Bridge is re-opened.”


https://talkbusiness.net/2021/05/highway-official-memphis-bridge-fracture-could-have-caused-catastrophic-event/

Hogwash. The railroads are still open for transcon freight movements and those bridges are still working just fine. "longer shipping times" as in 1 day at the max. Talk about hyperbole. The driver shortage will cause more issues than just 1 bridge.
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bwana39

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2021, 12:44:48 PM »

This bridge is NOT a standard truss bridge. This is a tied arch bridge (or maybe a bowstring truss... the written descriptions all say tied arch, so I want to trust them.)  The arch is like the main cables on a suspension bridge  The rods going down to below the deck equate to the suspender cables. The beam that is broken segmentally supports the entire side of the bridge deck. . While all this is hanging is the part from the break to the next support, the question is how many of the supports would have to be removed to replace the broken portion. There is no redundant support It may be tricky. It may be possible to engineer a patch That likely would be welded , bolted, or riveted into place. Using this approach, likely it would extend like a  sarcophagus past the previous (left in the photo) hanger and be connected there.  It might be possible to remove a portion of the beam, but that is dependent on how long the replacement portion would have to be and how to intermediately support the bridge deck while it is removed. It might be possible to either weld up the crack (not a good choice to me,) Weld on a gusset without removing the support, or removing the one closest hanger and replacing the current gusset with an oversized one that extends an appropriate distance past the break.

Hopefully they are inspecting the rest of these elements visually and possibly with x-ray and other NDT methods.

To me the more drastic solution is to take down the deck and replace the beams. This is a 4-6 month minimum downtime. If it comes to this, how do you look forward? In spite of the fact that replacement might be the better solution, fixing this span is necessary if at all possible.  Once it is fixed, it still has some life left in it.


By the way, what is the reasoning to keep it closed to river traffic? Are they expecting an imminent failure? I get taking the weight off of the bridge, but????

I might also add, this break is NOT something that happened in the past week or so. It has been there long enough to rust noticeably. 

« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 12:47:35 PM by bwana39 »
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silverback1065

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2021, 01:11:32 PM »

doesn't help that all that traffic has to use that crappy cloverleaf on 55 too.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2021, 01:14:25 PM »

Reminds me of I-64 at Louisville, which was shut down for months.

I-40 was closed at Webbers Falls, Oklahoma  in 2002  for 2 months due to an accident

Accident as in the damn thing collapsed.

This a bit different as the truck traffic is way more considerable.

Former State Sentator Ingram is saying it is a crack in the support structure and it will take a considerable amount of time to fix and this falls on Tenn to fix per existing agreement.

Arkansas inspects and Tennessee repairs? is that correct? saw it on a Memphis area news site.
If it is a substansial amount of money and time, I cant believe they wouldnt cost share.

Isn't most of it already in Tennessee anyway?  I think Tennessee has land on the Arkansas side in that area.
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ilpt4u

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2021, 01:16:57 PM »

By the way, what is the reasoning to keep it closed to river traffic? Are they expecting an imminent failure? I get taking the weight off of the bridge, but????
From reports I have read, the justification for the halting of MS River traffic under the bridge is because this is enough of a structural fault that the inspectors and engineers can't yet certify the bridge is able to fully support its own weight.

Assuming a more detailed inspection is underway, pronouncing the bridge is able to hold itself up and support its own weight should come once it can be fully verified, and then MS River traffic will be cleared to resume
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bwana39

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2021, 01:35:53 PM »


Basically, This situation is made so much worse by the one lane, TOTSO setup on I-55.

It doesn't help any, but THIS TIME, for the I-40 through traffic, it actually is a help that Crump BLVD is through as it is the probable path for the majority of the traffic.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20377.msg2603607#msg2603607 Is a whole thread about the intersection. It is pending upgrade, but that has been postponed a couple of times.

doesn't help that all that traffic has to use that crappy cloverleaf on 55 too.

but THIS TIME, for the I-40 through traffic, it actually is a help that Crump BLVD is through as it is the probable path for the majority of I-40 the traffic.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 01:38:35 PM by bwana39 »
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bwana39

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2021, 03:07:33 PM »

By the way, what is the reasoning to keep it closed to river traffic? Are they expecting an imminent failure? I get taking the weight off of the bridge, but????
From reports I have read, the justification for the halting of MS River traffic under the bridge is because this is enough of a structural fault that the inspectors and engineers can't yet certify the bridge is able to fully support its own weight.

Assuming a more detailed inspection is underway, pronouncing the bridge is able to hold itself up and support its own weight should come once it can be fully verified, and then MS River traffic will be cleared to resume

I agree with the assessment that failure is a possibility. That beam is not redundant. It looks to me to be broken in two not just cracked. From my perspective, the failure would be the deck, not the truss structure. Torsion during a deck failure COULD bring down the arch.  While I think the bridge could fail, it suddenly falling into the river on top of marine traffic doesn't seem a viable likelihood unless activity on the bridge for inspection / remediation is going on.  Until I saw a significant widening of the crack  (in mm not inches or feet) or the deck begins to spall or crack, I would try to keep the river open. That said I would hate to be the one to sign off on reopening the river absent a structural (bridge) engineer signing off without objections from his peers.  Hopefully there is computer data from the seismic retrofit, but it was done at a point in time where there still might not be any.  Then again, this bridge design is unique enough, it is going to be hard to model.
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codyg1985

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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2021, 03:55:26 PM »

I checked SmartWay (https://smartway.tn.gov/traffic?features=incident,traffic,messageSign&position=35.22780381,-89.78645637,13).  Looks like the bridge closure is mentioned on every logical VMS around Memphis.

Not mentioned on Nashville's signs, however.

There aren't any permanent message boards around Jackson, TN where traffic could divert up towards the I-155 bridge?

Probably not yet.  They are in the process of six-land widening I-40 in the vicinity of Jackson.  I would assume that the finished product would include sone sort of permanent overhead VMSs.


I saw the plans for a portion of the widening project, and it does include a westbound VMS coming into Jackson TN from the east on I-40.
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Re: I -40 Hernando Desoto Bridge at Memphis shutdown
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2021, 04:03:25 PM »

Since all traffic is using the I-55 bridge, shifting some I-55 Thru Traffic wouldn't hurt either. Would TDOT and KYTC recommend using US 51/Future I-69 to either the I-155 Bridge or continuing up I-69, depending on route? And southbound, MoDOT advise the I-155 to US 51 route as the "Alternate" route to Memphis due to delays at the now-single Memphis Mississippi River Bridge?

I would think it would be wise for ArDOT, TDOT, MDOT, and maybe KYTC or MoDOT to coordinate portable and permanent VMS messages to route traffic around the I-40 closure for traffic on I-22, I-40, and I-55. I am not sure if the Little Rock VMSs show anything regarding the I-40 bridge closure, but the Nashville VMSs don't show anything for westbound I-40 or southbound I-65 traffic to consider an alternate route if going west of Memphis.
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