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Author Topic: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?  (Read 8251 times)

bugo

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Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« on: June 09, 2012, 06:35:49 PM »

The Indian Nation Turnpike in Oklahoma has no parallel free road for most of its distance.  Isn't there a rule that says there must be a free alternative to all toll roads?  The Indian Nation was built along an all new corridor.
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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 07:26:02 PM »

There's no such rule except for U.S. Highways (and even then it's not always followed - see US 51 near Rockford, IL).

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2012, 09:19:37 PM »

There's no such rule except for U.S. Highways (and even then it's not always followed - see US 51 near Rockford, IL).
251 "counts" for that one.

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2012, 09:35:41 PM »

The Indian Nation Turnpike in Oklahoma has no parallel free road for most of its distance.  Isn't there a rule that says there must be a free alternative to all toll roads?  The Indian Nation was built along an all new corridor.

No.  A lot of toll roads were built along new corridors.
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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 08:12:37 AM »

The Indian Nation Turnpike in Oklahoma has no parallel free road for most of its distance.  Isn't there a rule that says there must be a free alternative to all toll roads?  The Indian Nation was built along an all new corridor.

Assuming there was a free alternative rule, there obviously already were ways to get to the destinations served by the turnpike prior to its existence.

Such a rule prevents a situation where a toll road is the only access to a destination.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 08:49:17 AM by Special K »
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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 03:24:16 PM »

Such a rule prevents a situation where a toll road is the only access to a destination.
There's no such rule, period. Otherwise you couldn't have a toll bridge to an island without a free alternate.

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 06:39:13 PM »

I believe he's referring to an Oklahoma-only rule.  I've heard of such a rule too, but haven't verified its existence.
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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 12:22:32 AM »

No, there is no such rule, Oklahoma-only or otherwise. The rule bugo is thinking of is the "no tolls on a US highway without a free alternate" rule, which comes into play in Oklahoma with US 412 on the Cimarron (alternate is US 64) and Cherokee (US 412 Scenic/old OK 33) Turnpikes.

The only Oklahoma-only turnpike-related rules I can think of are the ones related to cross-pledging.
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Road Hog

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2012, 05:25:25 PM »

It's a stretch, but technically, U.S. 75 north from Atoka to near Henryetta is a free alternative on the north end, and OK-3 and U.S. 271 provide the same between Hugo and McAlester. Or one can take U.S. 69 straight through and double back on I-40.

The entire toll from end to end is only $4.75 one way, though, and it's worth it going to Tulsa. I can make it from my house to Tulsa in 2 1/2 hours and only have to pay $3.25 because I'm driving half of the turnpike.
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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2021, 06:29:33 PM »

This came from discussion on the mid-south forum on the Hernando Desoto Bridge.

Newsflash, Avalanchez:  tolls ARE user fees.  You only pay the toll if you use the facility.

If there is a free alternative then I can see it as a user fee.  If there is not a free alternative then it is an extortion fee.

Just about the only toll roads in the US without any sort of free alternative are bridges. Big bridges are expensive. Given your general lack of desire to spend taxpayer money on upgrading/widening/new construction, how else are we supposed to be able to build and maintain those?

Only one of Oklahoma's turnpikes doesn't have a free alternative (Indian Nation). Turner and Will Rogers have OK66, Cherokee has US412 Scenic, Cimarron has US64, Muskogee also has US64, and the H.E. Bailey has US277. All 3 urban pikes have local street choices.

Yes north of Antlers, the Indian Nation is pretty much the sole route. That said, it is a low use route. If I were guessing, I would guess the south of McAlester it is among if not the lowest use rural freeway period.  I don't think the tolls are the issue either.  The traffic pattern basically is from southeast to northwest when the predominance of the traffic goes generally south to north or toward the northeast.  It is some busier north of McAlester, but that is the US-75 traffic going to Tulsa and points north on the US-169 corridor,

I've driven the INT from Henryetta down to Antlers numerous times (lotsa relatives in the Broken Bow/Idabel area); there have been stretches where I haven't seen another vehicle going in my direction either on the horizon or in my rear-view mirror -- it's pretty desolate out there.  It's obvious that at some point someone in SE AR raised enough of a fuss about the lack of connectivity and the southern reaches of the INT were developed as a result.  My observation is that at least half of the SB traffic exits at US 69; NB traffic certainly picks up dramatically north of there as well (being the direct route to and from Tulsa doesn't hurt!).  Don't see the southern part's usage changing much; it would probably take some sort of extension well into TX to kick the traffic flow up -- and AFAIK that isn't on anyone's radar!

Texas proposed a through 4-lane route to the state line from Lufkin more or less.  US-69 to Greenville, I-30 to SH-24, SH-24 to Paris, Loop 286 either way around Paris, then US-271 to the state line (and on to the Indian Nation Turnpike. ) It is four-lane except for parts from Toll-49 to Greenville.  It has not been completed and yes, it is not as seemingly as high a priority for the Paris District as US-75, US-82, and US-380.
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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2021, 06:36:42 PM »

No, as it's not a US highway.

Scott5114

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2021, 07:32:08 PM »

No, as it's not a US highway.

congrats on answering a question I answered 9 years ago, i guess
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2021, 07:34:43 PM »

No, as it's not a US highway.

congrats on answering a question I answered 9 years ago, i guess
Did not read the 2012 lol, someone must have bumped it.

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2021, 07:45:55 PM »

No, as it's not a US highway.

congrats on answering a question I answered 9 years ago, i guess
Did not read the 2012 lol, someone must have bumped it.

But you did read my post and decided to post the same thing...?
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Rothman

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2021, 07:47:30 PM »

No, as it's not a US highway.

congrats on answering a question I answered 9 years ago, i guess
Did not read the 2012 lol, someone must have bumped it.

But you did read my post and decided to post the same thing...?

He didn't read jack.  He just was an eager beaver that wanted to answer the question.
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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2021, 11:09:43 PM »

There's no such rule except for U.S. Highways (and even then it's not always followed - see US 51 near Rockford, IL).

Who would establish such a rule that could be enforced? AASHTO is a voluntary organization, and US numbered highways are state routes that have no federal sanction.
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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2021, 11:34:14 PM »

There's no such rule except for U.S. Highways (and even then it's not always followed - see US 51 near Rockford, IL).

Who would establish such a rule that could be enforced? AASHTO is a voluntary organization, and US numbered highways are state routes that have no federal sanction.
The FHWA?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 12:00:49 AM by Roadgeekteen »
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Rothman

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2021, 11:48:37 PM »

There's no such rule except for U.S. Highways (and even then it's not always followed - see US 51 near Rockford, IL).

Who would establish such a rule that could be enforced? AASHTO is a voluntary organization, and US numbered highways are state routes that have no federal sanction.
The FWA?
There is no FWA.
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2021, 12:01:01 AM »

There's no such rule except for U.S. Highways (and even then it's not always followed - see US 51 near Rockford, IL).

Who would establish such a rule that could be enforced? AASHTO is a voluntary organization, and US numbered highways are state routes that have no federal sanction.
The FWA?
There is no FWA.
oops meant FHWA

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2021, 12:35:54 PM »

I see no real mechanism to enforce the free alternative to a toll US highway AASHTO rule.
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2021, 12:55:43 PM »

I see no real mechanism to enforce the free alternative to a toll US highway AASHTO rule.
Doesn't matter for this as the Indian Nation Turnpike is not a US highway.

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2021, 01:44:09 PM »

I see no real mechanism to enforce the free alternative to a toll US highway AASHTO rule.

They can decline the establishment of the U.S. highway. There's no mechanism to stop a state from signing a U.S. route without AASHTO's permission, but that's true of any U.S. highway. (US-377 in Oklahoma was posted over AASHTO's objections, though ODOT did so to comply with a federal law mandating it be posted.) States comply because they want to maintain good standing with AASHTO.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2021, 02:05:53 PM »

I see no real mechanism to enforce the free alternative to a toll US highway AASHTO rule.
Doesn't matter for this as the Indian Nation Turnpike is not a US highway.

True but I was just stating that I do not see a mechanism for enforcement if such a situation were to exist.
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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2021, 01:51:46 PM »

The Indian Nation was built because the SE part of the state had no good route to get to OKC and Tulsa. Also, it lies almost wholly in "Little Dixie" where State Senator Gene Stipe ruled for more than 50 years.  If Gene wanted it, then it was a done deal.
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Re: Is the Indian Nation Turnpike illegal?
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2021, 01:59:54 PM »

Toll Roads are hardly illegal.
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