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Author Topic: ACCESS Oklahoma  (Read 49471 times)

rte66man

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #225 on: April 09, 2022, 11:43:27 AM »


Quote from: News9 Article
“In the situation where you have 500 to 700 homes being eliminated and there’s only 70 some housing houses for sale in Norman, then that ought to send a red flag,”  Boren said.

She's only one of many who have thrown so-called facts out there with absolutely no support for them. The opponents' goal is to enflame the voting population. If they have to exaggerate or lie to get what they want, so be it.
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In_Correct

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #226 on: April 09, 2022, 01:36:05 PM »


From The Daily Oklahoman And Allegedly The Associated Press:

Quote

Sen. Rob Standridge, R-Norman, said he doesn’t have a strong opinion on the bill yet because it doesn’t affect his district. But the chairman of the Senate Transportation Committee said the legislation likely deserves additional scrutiny in light of some local opposition to the ACCESS Oklahoma turnpike expansion.

“I'll look at that closer based on what I've been seeing in Cleveland County,”  Standridge said. “We kind of look in the rearview mirror now and wonder did we do the right thing?”

Is OTA lacking transparency in turnpike plans?

When the OTA unveiled ACCESS Oklahoma in February, officials promised to be transparent in their planning efforts and indeed have met several times with groups of concerned property owners.

But they have been less communicative on the Arcadia-area turnpike, saying it is not part of any formal planning by the turnpike authority.

Oklahoma County District 1 Commissioner Carrie Blumert, who represents the area detailed in HB 4088, was unaware of the proposal or the bill when contacted by The Oklahoman. Prior to her election as commissioner, the turnpike authority acquired properties to make way for the Kickapoo Turnpike.

“There were a lot of concerned citizens,”  Blumert said. “I would expect a similar response with any new turnpike. As a representative for the area, I would love to hear about it. If residents call my office or I hear about it while out in the district, I would want to know about it.”

Rosecrants believes bi-partisan support is building to rein in the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and improve oversight of its expansion efforts.






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rte66man

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #227 on: April 09, 2022, 02:33:02 PM »


From The Daily Oklahoman And Allegedly The Associated Press:

Quote

Sen. Rob Standridge, R-Norman, said he doesn’t have a strong opinion on the bill yet because it doesn’t affect his district. But the chairman of the Senate Transportation Committee said the legislation likely deserves additional scrutiny in light of some local opposition to the ACCESS Oklahoma turnpike expansion.

“I'll look at that closer based on what I've been seeing in Cleveland County,”  Standridge said. “We kind of look in the rearview mirror now and wonder did we do the right thing?”

Is OTA lacking transparency in turnpike plans?

When the OTA unveiled ACCESS Oklahoma in February, officials promised to be transparent in their planning efforts and indeed have met several times with groups of concerned property owners.

But they have been less communicative on the Arcadia-area turnpike, saying it is not part of any formal planning by the turnpike authority.

Oklahoma County District 1 Commissioner Carrie Blumert, who represents the area detailed in HB 4088, was unaware of the proposal or the bill when contacted by The Oklahoman. Prior to her election as commissioner, the turnpike authority acquired properties to make way for the Kickapoo Turnpike.

“There were a lot of concerned citizens,”  Blumert said. “I would expect a similar response with any new turnpike. As a representative for the area, I would love to hear about it. If residents call my office or I hear about it while out in the district, I would want to know about it.”

Rosecrants believes bi-partisan support is building to rein in the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and improve oversight of its expansion efforts.

I went back and looked at the announcement and see no reference to an Arcadia-area turnpike . What are they referring to? The Kickapoo is a Luther-area pike.
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Scott5114

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #228 on: April 09, 2022, 03:41:58 PM »

Someone filed a bill seeking to authorize a loop from the northern terminus of the Kickapoo back to I-35. This seems to be an initiative of the individual lawmaker involved and not something OTA wants. (The way the northern terminus of the Kickapoo is built, it's clear they weren't intending to extend it north anytime soon.
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Bobby5280

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #229 on: April 09, 2022, 07:02:44 PM »

I wouldn't say the Northern terminus of the Kickapoo Turnpike at I-44 was built without future expansion in mind. The trumpet interchange could be converted into a cloverleaf or something better without much trouble. If the Kickapoo Turnpike was extended North it would have to shift to the East of Luther and then go Northward.

The mention of Arcadia in that one proposal makes no sense. Arcadia is due West of Luther. The Kickapoo Turnpike would literally have to make a hard left immediately North of I-44 to go thru Arcadia, the actual small town on OK-66. A proper North extension would go well North of there before turning left toward I-35.
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Scott5114

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #230 on: April 09, 2022, 07:15:53 PM »

I wouldn't say the Northern terminus of the Kickapoo Turnpike at I-44 was built without future expansion in mind. The trumpet interchange could be converted into a cloverleaf or something better without much trouble. If the Kickapoo Turnpike was extended North it would have to shift to the East of Luther and then go Northward.

Right, but if you look at the southern terminus of the Kickapoo, it was clearly intended to tie into a further extension at some point. If OTA had planned for a northern extension, you'd see something like that teeing out at NE 178th Street.
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Bobby5280

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #231 on: April 09, 2022, 09:28:42 PM »

I think the OTA's use of a relatively cheap trumpet interchange design on the North end of the Kickapoo Turnpike leaves just as much room for an extension. They could have built a stub just North to NE 178th Street, but that road is less than half a mile from the I-44 interchange. An exit there, so close to I-44, might lead to some bad traffic weaving conflicts. If the Kickapoo Turnpike was extended North of I-44 I'm pretty sure the next exit would be one at OK-66, another mile North.
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In_Correct

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #232 on: April 10, 2022, 05:58:25 AM »

Steve Lackmeyer Contributed To This Article:

Quote

Rosecrants joined fellow Norman lawmaker Merleyn Bell in an unsuccessful attempt to amend HB 4088 to stop construction of the Norman area turnpikes.

“I have sympathy with the emotion of what’s going on in Norman and Moore,”  Wallace responded at the time. “My bill has nothing to do with that.”  

Although he acknowledged HB 4088 is unrelated to the ACCESS Oklahoma plan, Rosecrants, an outspoken critic of the Norman turnpike expansion, was among a bipartisan group of lawmakers to oppose the bill. He’s also hoping to keep opposition to the Norman turnpike expansion in the spotlight.

Rosecrants said he has already talked to Luther residents who are concerned about whether they could be targeted for a turnpike should HB 4088 becomes law.

“We’re hoping maybe a lot of other folks from other areas besides Norman will unite against this, too,”  Rosecrants said. “I think they (OTA) have way too much power.”

Steve Lackmeyer started at The Oklahoman in 1990. He is an award-winning reporter, columnist and author who covers downtown Oklahoma City, urban development and economics for The Oklahoman. Contact him at slackmeyer @ oklahoman . com . Please support his work and that of other Oklahoman journalists by purchasing a subscription today at subscribe.oklahoman.com.

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Plutonic Panda

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #233 on: April 10, 2022, 01:17:43 PM »

I had always thought the Kickapoo turnpike would be extended north one day but perhaps the OTA didn’t want to generate more controversy so kept that off the table for now.
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TXtoNJ

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #234 on: April 10, 2022, 02:37:34 PM »

I had always thought the Kickapoo turnpike would be extended north one day but perhaps the OTA didn’t want to generate more controversy so kept that off the table for now.

I kinda figured it would end up south of Stillwater as a relief route of 35 through OKC.
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Scott5114

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #235 on: April 10, 2022, 03:44:11 PM »

Steve Lackmeyer Contributed To This Article:

well that's unfortunate

Quote
“We’re hoping maybe a lot of other folks from other areas besides Norman will unite against this, too,”  Rosecrants said. “I think they (OTA) have way too much power.”

Way too much power...?! They can literally only build roads the Legislature allows them to build!



I had always thought the Kickapoo turnpike would be extended north one day but perhaps the OTA didn’t want to generate more controversy so kept that off the table for now.

I kinda figured it would end up south of Stillwater as a relief route of 35 through OKC.

Geez, do you realize how far north Stillwater is?! That would be like 50 miles of redundant freeway. There's zero need for that north of Guthrie.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2022, 03:53:07 PM by Scott5114 »
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rte66man

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #236 on: April 10, 2022, 08:56:45 PM »

I had always thought the Kickapoo turnpike would be extended north one day but perhaps the OTA didn’t want to generate more controversy so kept that off the table for now.

I kinda figured it would end up south of Stillwater as a relief route of 35 through OKC.

I heard somewhere the long range plan is for it to bend to the west north of Luther and join I35 just north of Waterloo Road.
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Bobby5280

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #237 on: April 10, 2022, 09:16:49 PM »

If they ever do extend the Kickapoo Turnpike North to connect into I-35 I think they'll have to make the connection farther North than Waterloo Road. Quite a few homes have been built off of Waterloo Road within the last 20 years. I think a connection into I-35 would have to be made 4-5 miles farther North where there isn't so much development in the way. That's getting pretty close to Guthrie.

Another idea would be tying the North end of a Kickapoo Turnpike extension into the South Division Street interchange with I-35 on the South side of Guthrie. That existing "Y" interchange could be converted into a directional stack.

As for Rosencrant's suggestion Luther could be adversely impacted by a North extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike, that is yet another example of someone counting on people not bothering to look at a map. There is plenty of empty, undeveloped land on the East side of Luther where a turnpike extension could be built. It's not like the OTA would try to barrel it straight up over Ash Street through the middle of town.
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TXtoNJ

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #238 on: April 10, 2022, 09:34:24 PM »

Steve Lackmeyer Contributed To This Article:

well that's unfortunate

Quote
“We’re hoping maybe a lot of other folks from other areas besides Norman will unite against this, too,”  Rosecrants said. “I think they (OTA) have way too much power.”

Way too much power...?! They can literally only build roads the Legislature allows them to build!



I had always thought the Kickapoo turnpike would be extended north one day but perhaps the OTA didn’t want to generate more controversy so kept that off the table for now.

I kinda figured it would end up south of Stillwater as a relief route of 35 through OKC.

Geez, do you realize how far north Stillwater is?! That would be like 50 miles of redundant freeway. There's zero need for that north of Guthrie.

Oh I know. I also know that efficiency isn't in the top 5 of reasons highways get built in Oklahoma.
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In_Correct

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #239 on: April 11, 2022, 03:35:13 AM »

The K.W.T.V. Article:

https://www.news9.com/story/624f62c7e725bc070c098db6/turnpike-project-approval-delayed-in-transportation-committee-

Quote

Turnpike Project Approval Delayed In Transportation Committee

Join the conversation ( )
Thursday, April 7th 2022, 6:02 pm
By: Storme Jones

OKLAHOMA CITY - State Senator Mary Boren, D-Norman, filed an amendment to the bill authorizing $5 billion work of turnpike projects across the state Thursday.
Her amendment would have pulled the Cleveland County construction off the list of approved projects.

Senate Transportation Committee Chairman and fellow Norman Senator Rob Standridge pulled the entire bill approving projects across the state late Thursday afternoon.

“In the situation where you have 500 to 700 homes being eliminated and there’s only 70 some housing houses for sale in Norman, then that ought to send a red flag,”  Boren said.

In a statement after the plan was announced, the Turnpike Author said they "selected alignments and connections to existing infrastructure that are the least impactful to homeowners, business owners and the environment.”  

“The value of a long-range plan like ACCESS Oklahoma is that, in many circumstances, it provides us time to work more transparently, thoroughly and thoughtfully with affected property owners," the agency said in a statement. 

“Well, it’s frustrating for them to say, ”˜It’s not that bad,’”  Boren said. “”˜It’s not as bad as it looks’ is what they’re saying, but they’re not giving you any concrete numbers or plan for what the toll will be,”  Boren said. 

Asked why he pulled the authorization bill, Standridge said he had just decided to not have a vote Thursday without giving specifics.

The deadline for the bill to pass out of committee is April 14. 


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Bobby5280

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #240 on: April 11, 2022, 10:51:54 AM »

Quote from: State Senator Mary Boren, from KWTV article
“Well, it’s frustrating for them to say, ”˜It’s not that bad,’”  Boren said. “”˜It’s not as bad as it looks’ is what they’re saying, but they’re not giving you any concrete numbers or plan for what the toll will be,”  Boren said.

That's opposed to her wildly exaggerated claim 500-700 homes could be razed to make room for the turnpikes. It's par for the course for newspapers and TV stations to not bother pointing out the doom and gloom exaggeration; they love anything that will fire up the audience's emotions. It's great for boosting ratings and generating ad sales. Reps from the OTA could at least counter that exaggeration by telling everyone to look at a map and see just how few properties are in the paths of the proposed turnpikes.

Currently there isn't much built in the areas where the turnpikes are proposed. But that is going to change. If the politicians succeed in blocking the Access Oklahoma plan that will be the end of it for good. I'm sure West Indian Hills Road will get covered up in new residential and commercial development within the next 10-20 years. Areas around Lake Thunderbird could fill in more as well.
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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #241 on: April 11, 2022, 01:30:19 PM »

addicted to biased outrage

Indeed I have observed a bit of this around the forum over the years as folks post links to media that is against some project and it's posted in the context of "Get a load of this! Look at what these idiots are saying!"  A small scale example of how controversy generates attention.

In a case like this Oklahoma thing, I have to wonder if OTA went for the largest possible vision for ACCESS so that they can give up some of this proposed mileage in negotiations and "settle" for the facilities they actually want.  Facilities that would have received an equal amount of push-back anyway, so if they ask for more than they want, the compromise becomes the secretly preferred scope.

One sees this kind of thing all the time in politics (well, we used to.)
Politician A: "We didn't get everything we wanted, but it's a great start."
Politician B: "We successfully reigned in their wild ideas and saved you money or whatever."
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Scott5114

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #242 on: April 11, 2022, 06:32:27 PM »

Quote from: State Senator Mary Boren, from KWTV article
“Well, it’s frustrating for them to say, ”˜It’s not that bad,’”  Boren said. “”˜It’s not as bad as it looks’ is what they’re saying, but they’re not giving you any concrete numbers or plan for what the toll will be,”  Boren said.

That's opposed to her wildly exaggerated claim 500-700 homes could be razed to make room for the turnpikes. It's par for the course for newspapers and TV stations to not bother pointing out the doom and gloom exaggeration; they love anything that will fire up the audience's emotions. It's great for boosting ratings and generating ad sales. Reps from the OTA could at least counter that exaggeration by telling everyone to look at a map and see just how few properties are in the paths of the proposed turnpikes.

There's also been this reluctance in the media over the past few decades to avoid calling bullshit on anything, out of the pathological desire to appear fair to both sides. This is good when both sides are acting honestly and merely have a disagreement on priorities or values, but it starts to break down when it turns into "One side says the sky is blue, the other side says the sky is green, we report, you decide!" It's intellectually lazy reporting.

Of course, people should do enough due diligence to debunk lies themselves instead of just taking everything they see at face value, but...they don't. And in some cases they can't, since they can't get any context for a statement outside of the reporting. In this case, one can take the Access Oklahoma maps and compare them to satellite imagery and count the number of homes that could be demolished themselves. But that's not always the case. If someone is arguing against a bill using fabricated numbers about how much it will cost, for instance...
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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #243 on: April 11, 2022, 11:03:51 PM »

Since they have been designating pre-existing routes with state highway numbers with a three in the one-hundreds column, if the Kickapoo Turnpike is ever extended northward or southward, they should probably designate it OK 335. The existing Kickapoo Turnpike could have a joint Interstate 240/OK 335 co-designation.
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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #244 on: April 12, 2022, 09:09:39 AM »

Hello I am new here been a fan of this site for a long time and finally decided to join in the discussion.

So here is my thoughts... Does anyone think that the Kickapoo from I-44 to the south to the proposed E-W Connector will be the new I-44. It would make since because they have signed the exit numbers on the Kickapoo to I-44. Where I-44 bypasses Oklahoma City. And the proposed E-W Connector will be going to Tri-City area. So essentially making I-44 to the east and south of the metro. 

Make I-240 What they proposed with the exception of the kickapoo turnpike. So Airport Road, JKT and Turner. Take the current I-44 Alignment in OKC and make it another interstate or a State highway Loop.

Or make I-240 alignment the same prior to 1982. Where it looped around the city on present day I-44.

Hard to tell what ODOT and OTA are thinking at times.


Also does anyone know when the 240 signs will be up? Do we know where the process is? Did the FHA and AASHTO approve it yet? Timeline?

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #245 on: April 12, 2022, 10:11:33 AM »

There's also been this reluctance in the media over the past few decades to avoid calling bullshit on anything, out of the pathological desire to appear fair to both sides. This is good when both sides are acting honestly and merely have a disagreement on priorities or values, but it starts to break down when it turns into "One side says the sky is blue, the other side says the sky is green, we report, you decide!" It's intellectually lazy reporting.

Nah.  What actually makes the news is a reporter talking to a single mother, who's working two jobs, whose beloved cat just died, who claims that a different sky color would give her a leg up in life and provide her the opportunity to go back to school and finally get that nursing degree she's always wanted.  "Well, we just heard one example of how the government's stubborn unwillingness to change the color of the sky is affecting real people's everyday lives."
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Bobby5280

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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #246 on: April 12, 2022, 01:59:09 PM »

Quote from: jdingus
So here is my thoughts... Does anyone think that the Kickapoo from I-44 to the south to the proposed E-W Connector will be the new I-44.

No. I-44 will remain designated in its current location thru OKC. It would actually be incredibly disruptive to move the I-44 designation. Many businesses and other kinds of organizations would have to change their advertising materials and update any other documents referring to the road. Plus, the original design of the Interstate highway system called for the main line 2-digit routes to run through cities and have 3-digit routes work as bypasses. Obviously there are many exceptions to that design policy.

If the Kickapoo Turnpike extension and East-West Connector are built and the opportunity is there for Interstate designations both would likely get 3-digit route designations.
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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #247 on: April 12, 2022, 03:04:48 PM »

Quote from: jdingus
So here is my thoughts... Does anyone think that the Kickapoo from I-44 to the south to the proposed E-W Connector will be the new I-44.

No. I-44 will remain designated in its current location thru OKC. It would actually be incredibly disruptive to move the I-44 designation. Many businesses and other kinds of organizations would have to change their advertising materials and update any other documents referring to the road. Plus, the original design of the Interstate highway system called for the main line 2-digit routes to run through cities and have 3-digit routes work as bypasses. Obviously there are many exceptions to that design policy.

If the Kickapoo Turnpike extension and East-West Connector are built and the opportunity is there for Interstate designations both would likely get 3-digit route designations.

I would bet they will be I-440 and I-640. And I would be shocked if these turnpikes are not built as indicated today.

This is all a done deal. We are just in the crying and moaning part of the process. The local pols need to create a show proving that they are "doing something" for the small but vocal minority of residents who are upset. I would also guess that a good majority of Norman residents are actually in favor of the highways and the politicians know that too. I doubt any of the politicians even intend their little show to be successful.
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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #248 on: April 12, 2022, 05:40:43 PM »

Quote from: swake
I would bet they will be I-440 and I-640. And I would be shocked if these turnpikes are not built as indicated today.

If those turnpikes are built the odds are highest they'll be given Oklahoma state highway OK-3XX designations. I think Interstate designations are a long shot really. Even if the existing portion of the Kickapoo Turnpike was given an I-240 designation (as has been authorized) there is still a good chance the OTA would leave it unsigned.

It's a huge stretch calling the existing Kickapoo segment "I-240," and the designation no longer works if the turnpike could be extended down to Purcell and I-35. In that case an I-x35 designation (such as I-835) would make more sense. It could still be possible to label the East-West Connector as "I-640," but that would only work if the Tri-City Connector around Will Rogers Airport was also labeled I-640 and it overlapped with I-44 over the Canadian River.

Quote from: swake
This is all a done deal. We are just in the crying and moaning part of the process.

Not really. Governor Stitt is reportedly still in favor of the Access Oklahoma plan. But if the state legislature builds up enough "no" votes they could effectively block it. The bill to authorize the turnpikes has to be able to make it out of the committee level by this Thursday. Otherwise the plan is finished.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 10:20:56 PM by Bobby5280 »
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Re: ACCESS Oklahoma
« Reply #249 on: April 12, 2022, 05:57:30 PM »

I doubt any new Interstates will be designated in Oklahoma outside of the proposed US 412 Interstate upgrade (that includes extending Interstate 45 from Dallas into Oklahoma). Personally, I think the Kickapoo Turnpike should not become part of Interstate 240, which is why I suggested the Kickapoo receive the OK 335 designation (I have no problem with the 240 designation being added to the John Kilpatrick Turnpike, the alternative would be to possibly number it OK 340). If a new Interstate 40 3di were ever proposed (which seems unlikely), I'd number it 440 instead of 640.
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