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[Rothman]

Roadgeeks speculating over the possible future numbering of highways make me reach for my revolver.

[Bobby5280]

When was I-444 signed in Tulsa?

The Inner Dispersal Loop around Downtown Tulsa has been un-signed I-444 for, well, as long as I can remember. Currently Google Earth shows I-444 icons on it. Maybe the icons will be removed tomorrow.

I have always thought it should extend to JKT at least.

Technically the rules say Interstate highways are supposed to end at other highways in the national highway network. I think that means other Interstate highways or US highways. The Kilpatrick Turnpike has never carried a US Highway or Interstate Highway number. Under those rules an extension of I-235 up to the Kilpatrick Turnpike would not have been allowed. That's despite the fact the Broadway Extension freeway was pretty much completely re-built in the late 1990's. A bunch of it is newer and up to higher standards than parts of existing I-235.

Once the Kilpatrick Turnpike is given the I-240 designation an I-235 extension up Broadway Extension should be a rubber stamp kind of decision.

[I-55]

When was I-444 signed in Tulsa?

The Inner Dispersal Loop around Downtown Tulsa has been un-signed I-444 for, well, as long as I can remember. Currently Google Earth shows I-444 icons on it. Maybe the icons will be removed tomorrow.

I wouldn't expect it to be removed soon, I-345 has been signed on google for MONTHS

[rte66man]

When was I-444 signed in Tulsa?

The Inner Dispersal Loop around Downtown Tulsa has been un-signed I-444 for, well, as long as I can remember. Currently Google Earth shows I-444 icons on it. Maybe the icons will be removed tomorrow.

ODOT at one time had a few unsigned routes, both Federal and State. The Gilcrease stub running west from I44/I244 was unsigned OK12 (at least until the new part is finished). I was going to school in Tulsa when the IDL was built and Bugo is right, it has never been signed. Lincoln Blvd in OKC is OK0 (according to the various bid documents). There are others but I can't remember them right now.

[Scott5114]

When was I-444 signed in Tulsa?

The Inner Dispersal Loop around Downtown Tulsa has been un-signed I-444 for, well, as long as I can remember. Currently Google Earth shows I-444 icons on it. Maybe the icons will be removed tomorrow.

ODOT at one time had a few unsigned routes, both Federal and State. The Gilcrease stub running west from I44/I244 was unsigned OK12 (at least until the new part is finished). I was going to school in Tulsa when the IDL was built and Bugo is right, it has never been signed. Lincoln Blvd in OKC is OK0 (according to the various bid documents). There are others but I can't remember them right now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsigned_Oklahoma_State_Highways

[Plutonic Panda]

More Norman residents bitching about the turnpikes: https://okcfox.com/news/local/tensions-at-ota-public-meeting-in-norman-over-turnpike-expansions

[bugo]

The Poteau bypass and the Duncan bypass are both shown on the 2020 control section maps as highway "00".

Here is an archive featuring Oklahoma control section map books that I have acquired that go back as far as 1956.  Enjoy.

[The Ghostbuster]

Looks like the NIMBYs in Norman and Moore are coming out in full force. Does this mean the ACCESS Oklahoma plan may have to be scaled back?

[Plutonic Panda]

Looks like the NIMBYs in Norman and Moore are coming out in full force. Does this mean the ACCESS Oklahoma plan may have to be scaled back?

Hopefully not.

While there has been a lot of push back, OTA says their set plans likely will not change.

https://www.news9.com/story/6260273b7843a9072281b817/ota-to-release-property-payment-information-regarding-past-expansions

[skluth]

Looks like the NIMBYs in Norman and Moore are coming out in full force. Does this mean the ACCESS Oklahoma plan may have to be scaled back?

Hopefully not.

While there has been a lot of push back, OTA says their set plans likely will not change.

https://www.news9.com/story/6260273b7843a9072281b817/ota-to-release-property-payment-information-regarding-past-expansions

That's a smart decision by OTA as long as the compensation is reasonable. Opponents will lose a lot of support if it looks like certain property owners are trying to gouge the state.

[Plutonic Panda]

Anyone want a good laugh tonight? https://www.news9.com/story/62614e06fb6244070e0c0815/state-senator-seeks-audit-of-the-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-regarding-turnpike-expansion

[Bobby5280]

I saw a similar story on our local news. State Senator Mary Boren doesn't think the OTA should be able to build any new turnpikes until they pay off all the bonds for existing turnpikes. I guess that would ban the practice of cross pledging. The idea isn't realistic considering the fact only 3 or 4 of Oklahoma's turnpikes generate a profit. Turnpikes like the H.E. Bailey and a few other more rural turnpikes don't generate enough toll revenue to pay for their construction and upkeep on their own. Being able to cross pledge the debt is literally what makes it possible to build those less traveled rural turnpikes. Profits from the Will Rogers and Turner Turnpikes basically subsidize the other turnpikes. Without the cross pledging policy I strongly doubt Lawton would have a super highway connection to OKC and Wichita Falls at all.

If fully built out, I would expect the extended Kickapoo Turnpike and East-to-West Connector between Moore and Norman to generate more than enough toll revenue to pay for themselves.

[The Ghostbuster]

How are new roads going to be constructed if they are not toll roads? It's not like Oklahoma (or any other state) has limitless money to build new roads. Like Texas and Florida (and maybe Pennsylvania), Oklahoma is one of the few states that has gone the route of building new toll roads, so why shouldn't that continue?

[Plutonic Panda]

In theory I support the idea behind making the roads free but with all things Oklahoma politics it’s easy to talk and do things like dissolving the OTA and transfer ownership to ODOT but when it comes time to talk about how to pay for that I wonder where these lawmakers will be.

[Bobby5280]

Plenty of politicians and other blow-hards in Oklahoma make all kinds of noise about removing the toll gates. But not a single damned one of them ever mention the enormous price hike on gasoline taxes that would follow the removal of those toll gates. The state's fuel taxes are still among the lowest in the country. We recently had the first gasoline tax price hike since the early 1990's. It was a modest bump, with most of the new revenue going to fund teacher pay raises (all because teachers in Oklahoma are among the worst paid in the nation and have been starting to leave in droves).

[Stephane Dumas]

Still, I like the idea of the proposed new interchanges on the H.E. Bailey Turnpike(I-44) and Indian Nation Turnpike.

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[Plutonic Panda]

They need to add an interchange at SH-76/Council Road

[Scott5114]

I saw a similar story on our local news. State Senator Mary Boren doesn't think the OTA should be able to build any new turnpikes until they pay off all the bonds for existing turnpikes. I guess that would ban the practice of cross pledging. The idea isn't realistic considering the fact only 3 or 4 of Oklahoma's turnpikes generate a profit. Turnpikes like the H.E. Bailey and a few other more rural turnpikes don't generate enough toll revenue to pay for their construction and upkeep on their own. Being able to cross pledge the debt is literally what makes it possible to build those less traveled rural turnpikes. Profits from the Will Rogers and Turner Turnpikes basically subsidize the other turnpikes. Without the cross pledging policy I strongly doubt Lawton would have a super highway connection to OKC and Wichita Falls at all.

If fully built out, I would expect the extended Kickapoo Turnpike and East-to-West Connector between Moore and Norman to generate more than enough toll revenue to pay for themselves.

I don't think the Legislature even has the power to make this change themselves. Cross-pledging was instituted by a State Question. I'm pretty sure that means it would require a State Question to abolish it.

How are new roads going to be constructed if they are not toll roads? It's not like Oklahoma (or any other state) has limitless money to build new roads. Like Texas and Florida (and maybe Pennsylvania), Oklahoma is one of the few states that has gone the route of building new toll roads, so why shouldn't that continue?

You think our Legislature ever considers the consequences of its actions?

[Bobby5280]

You think our Legislature ever considers the consequences of its actions?

That's a rhetorical question, right?

With some of the hot button "law-making" they've been doing lately it could place Oklahoma at the risk of becoming a sausage festival state. Too many men, not enough women. Why would any women want to move to this state unless they were ultra-right in their politics? Women wanting to start families will find the school systems in many other states far more attractive. Single women wanting full control of their choices probably wouldn't want to move here either. Women are often not taken seriously in regard to their economic clout, but that clout is growing. 60% of college students in the US are women, yet women make up just a tiny bit over 50% of the US population.

A lot of my friends have had kids that have grown-up, gone to college, etc. Most of those kids have moved out of the state. They didn't just get the hell out of Lawton.

[swake]

Plenty of politicians and other blow-hards in Oklahoma make all kinds of noise about removing the toll gates. But not a single damned one of them ever mention the enormous price hike on gasoline taxes that would follow the removal of those toll gates. The state's fuel taxes are still among the lowest in the country. We recently had the first gasoline tax price hike since the early 1990's. It was a modest bump, with most of the new revenue going to fund teacher pay raises (all because teachers in Oklahoma are among the worst paid in the nation and have been starting to leave in droves).

Years ago I did an analysis of what it would take to remove tolls, retiring debt and also replacing the funds for maintenance and policing and it was a statewide tax increase of roughly eight cents per gallon for gas and diesel. Which would never fly. I'm sure it would be double or triple that amount now.

[Scott5114]

Of course, our Legislature is liable to just ban the tolls and then not raise the gas tax to make up for it. Then when the roads go to shit they shrug and laugh.

[FakeMikeMorgan]

I was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

People going from Tulsa to Dallas take US-75/69, not I-35. Going through OKC adds 50 additional miles and about 30 minutes of travel time.

As of now yes. But if the Kickapoo was extended to Davis that would cut out the 50 miles of backtracking.

[Plutonic Panda]

I was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

People going from Tulsa to Dallas take US-75/69, not I-35. Going through OKC adds 50 additional miles and about 30 minutes of travel time.

As of now yes. But if the Kickapoo was extended to Davis that would cut out the 50 miles of backtracking.

It's proposed as being extended to north of Purcell and I-35 area but I wouldn't be opposed to see the North Dallas Tollway extended to Davis at some point.

[Scott5114]

https://www.kgou.org/science-technology-and-environment/2022-04-25/access-turnpike-engineers-provide-timeline-for-environmental-impact-studies-address-water-pollution-concerns-for-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-project

The local NPR station interviewed the environmental impact contractors on the project.

[Bobby5280]

If the Kickapoo Turnpike is merged into I-35 at Purcell there won't be any need to build it any farther South (such as extending it clear down to Davis). I think the spot the OTA has picked just North of Purcell is good enough. The next trick is extending it North of I-44 to merge back into I-35 somewhere near Guthrie. Then the turnpike will work very well as an I-35 bypass around OKC.

Regarding the Dallas North Tollway, ultimately it's either supposed to merge into US-75 on the North side of Sherman (just South of the Red River) or unceremoniously end at or just North of US-82 near Sherman. Those plans steer it well away from I-35.

It looks like the EIS process has projects like the Kickapoo Extension and East to West Connector starting construction in the 2024 time frame at the earliest. I'm hoping the OTA can start working on some of the more modest projects soon, like some of the new exits along I-44.