Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[jdingus]

Once I-240 is signed over the Kilpatrick Turnpike it should be possible to extend the I-235 designation North to the JKT/Broadway Extension interchange.

I know the AASHTO has approved but has the FHWA approved it?

[Bobby5280]

I don't know if the FHWA has signed off on the I-240 extension. I don't mind I-240 being signed over the JKT, but I think the proposal to sign it along the Kickapoo Turnpike is pretty silly. And the I-240/Kickapoo proposal seems even more silly in light of the Access OK announcement to extended the Kickapoo Turnpike down to Purcell. In that context it would make more sense for the Kickapoo Turnpike to carry a I-x35 designation.

[Scott5114]

I don't know if the FHWA has signed off on the I-240 extension. I don't mind I-240 being signed over the JKT, but I think the proposal to sign it along the Kickapoo Turnpike is pretty silly. And the I-240/Kickapoo proposal seems even more silly in light of the Access OK announcement to extended the Kickapoo Turnpike down to Purcell. In that context it would make more sense for the Kickapoo Turnpike to carry a I-x35 designation.

That doesn't get Gatz his "loop format" though.

[jdingus]

I don't know if the FHWA has signed off on the I-240 extension. I don't mind I-240 being signed over the JKT, but I think the proposal to sign it along the Kickapoo Turnpike is pretty silly. And the I-240/Kickapoo proposal seems even more silly in light of the Access OK announcement to extended the Kickapoo Turnpike down to Purcell. In that context it would make more sense for the Kickapoo Turnpike to carry a I-x35 designation.

I would agree with that assessment. Sign the Airport Rd/JKT I-240 to eastern terminus of JKT.  Extend I-235 on the Broadway Ext.  Since the Access Oklahoma plan is to extend the Kickapoo to Purcell. (I have also heard rumblings of it being extended north to just south of Guthrie) make that an I-x35. That was the reason for my earlier question about the Mile Markers on the Kickapoo.

[Bobby5280]

I don't think there are any official proposals for extending the Kickapoo Turnpike farther North to I-35 near Guthrie. But such a thing would make perfect sense. If I had my way I'd name it "I-835" since no such route number exists currently.

That doesn't get Gatz his "loop format" though.

True. But signing I-240 over the Kickapoo Turnpike between I-44 and I-40 would result in a I-240 route with at least 3, if not 4 route concurrencies. I-240 would have two concurrencies with I-44. The one between the current West end of I-240 and Airport Road would be a wrong-way concurrency. I have less of a problem with that than I do the idea of signing I-240 along the Kickapoo Turnpike. If I-240 ended up being signed over all of the Kickapoo Turnpike, including its Southern Extension then the "loop" would end up being a weird comma shape (and it would connect to I-35 in 3 different locations).

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't think there are any official proposals for extending the Kickapoo Turnpike farther North to I-35 near Guthrie. But such a thing would make perfect sense. If I had my way I'd name it "I-835" since no such route number exists currently.

Not sure if you’d classify it is as “official”  but I believe they are actively studying it and even an assembly member called for it to be written into law.

[Scott5114]

I don't think there's ever been an intent to do a "comma shaped" loop along the turnpike extension. The I-240 extension was first proposed before the Kickapoo extension was.

I still think the most likely scenario is that the Kickapoo will change designations at I-40, with I-240 to the north and a SH-3xx number (probably 309) to the south.

[Plutonic Panda]

Not to get political but Governor Stitt’s opponent Joy Hoffmeister has stated she is against this plan and it’s looking like she is leading in the polls. If she becomes governor and actually tries to stop these projects is that possible?

[Scott5114]

Probably. ODOT and OTA are both part of the executive branch, which the governor enjoys a good amount of control over. If she says don't build it, they don't build it. This is especially true for projects that haven't broken ground yet.

I get the feeling that the governor's race is a coin flip at the moment. If I had to bet money on it, I'd bet on Hofmeister, but no more than $2.

[Scott5114]

Just in case you missed it in the batch of more interesting races last night, Stitt was re-elected by a comfortable margin and will be allowed to enjoy building as many turnpikes and governor's mansions as he would like to over the next 4 years.

[Bobby5280]

The OTA had better not waste any time with the effort to buy properties along West Indian Hills Road to gain ROW for the East-West Connector Turnpike. If they fart around they're going to witness lots of new buildings sprout up along that street. It will really get clogged near I-35. They need even more room there if they really intend to build a 5-level directional stack interchange.

[Scott5114]

Spoiler alert: They're going to fart around like they ate a can of beans and got on a carousel.

[Plutonic Panda]

It seems like they’re just waiting on the Oklahoma Supreme Court to give the go ahead. Anyone know when that might happen? Could it just come at any time? Maybe they were waiting for the election results.

[Bobby5280]

Here in Oklahoma the elections are all done. I figured Stitt would win re-election, but I'm a bit surprised he won by such a comfortable margin.

I thought the OTA was authorized in August to sell $500 million in bonds to start the program, but I guess that's still being held up by the State Supreme Court. I keep beating the dead horse about the East-West Connector going between Moore and Norman, but that's only because it's clearly going to be the most difficult and most expensive project in the whole $5 billion program. It doesn't take a rocket scientist IQ to understand the OTA needs to get ROW preserved for that specific turnpike before they do much of anything else. The East-West Connector has to be a top priority otherwise it will just become impossible to build. There are plenty of people in the Norman and Moore area who would like to deliberately obstruct the path of that future turnpike with a whole lot of new buildings.

[Plutonic Panda]

Well some not so good news: https://www.news9.com/story/6389331fe0dbad7b2191339b/judge-rules-against-ota-in-open-meetings-case

The judge has ruled against the OTA. Not sure what this means for the future of the program. Hopefully it still moves forward.

[Scott5114]

I have no idea, because the news article didn't seem to be interested in what the judge was ruling on, exactly. But if it's just an open-meetings law that they violated, I would assume the remedy would be to just do the meetings over.

[Plutonic Panda]

I have no idea, because the news article didn't seem to be interested in what the judge was ruling on, exactly. But if it's just an open-meetings law that they violated, I would assume the remedy would be to just do the meetings over.

It’s News 9. 99 percent of their articles are this way. Just a paragraph or two nothing you couldn’t get from a press release.

Regarding the ruling that’s what I think it is.

[J N Winkler]

I have no idea, because the news article didn't seem to be interested in what the judge was ruling on, exactly. But if it's just an open-meetings law that they violated, I would assume the remedy would be to just do the meetings over.

I did some digging and while I wasn't able to find a PDF of the judge's opinion, it appears OTA violated the Oklahoma open meetings statute by not including approval of a $5 million design contract (SP-65) in meeting agendas posted online.  The plaintiffs were able to show, using metadata, that OTA officials went back and modified the agendas after the meetings to include information for SP-65, which indicates they knew they were breaking the law.

KGOU (Oklahoma City NPR affiliate) report

Bad OTA!  Bad, bad OTA!

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ well that’s just ridiculous on the OTAs part if so. I would assume this means they will be very careful moving forward. Surely that was just a mistake made as a $5 million dollar contract wouldn’t be worth hiding or covering up here.

[rte66man]

Tim Gatz weighs in:

https://ktul.com/news/local/ota-would-never-play-games-with-the-agenda-tim-gatz-secretary-of-transportation-director-of-turnpike-authority-pikeoff-ota-oklahoma-ok-okc-norman-southern-extension-access-oklahoma-project-jessica-brown

'OTA would never play games with the agenda': Secretary of Transportation speaks out

by Wayne StaffordTuesday, December 6th 2022

The Secretary of Transportation is speaking out for the first time since a judge ruled the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority (OTA) violated the Open Meeting Act.

"The turnpike authority would never play games with the agenda," said Tim Gatz, Secretary of Transportation and the Director of OTA.

Monday's meeting might have been uneventful, but it gave attendees the chance to find out what happens next with the Oklahoma Access Project after a judge ruled in favor of a lawsuit that says the OTA "intended to mislead the public."

"It's an iterative process that we're having to go through," Gatz said. "First and foremost, we acknowledge the court's ruling. While we don't necessarily agree with it, I wouldn't go as far to say the project is in jeopardy. What I would say is conditions are different."

After approving the OTA's budget, board members went into executive session expected to discuss legal proceedings with Access Oklahoma.

"I feel like it's an atrocious plan to put this so close to the water shed," said Tassie Hirschfeld, an attendee of Monday's meeting. "The City of Norman has voted unanimously several times they do not want this in their community. All of the legal arguments, all the thousands of dollars they spent contesting this, resisting turning over evidence for discovery, none of that had merit."

In many ways OTA will have to start over with this process, which Gatz says he believes is "appropriate to progress" the Access Oklahoma Program.

[Plutonic Panda]

I’ve heard the big decision could come around December 16-18th. So keep your eyes and ears open on those dates. If not next likely time frame is in mid January. It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

[kphoger]

It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand–whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

[skluth]

It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand–whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

I agree. It's unfortunate that Norman has incorporated the rural land east of its urban core to encompass Lake Thunderbird. Ownership, or in this case incorporated limits, work in Norman's favor regarding any Kickapoo Turnpike extension south. Norman also has the bulk of the proposed East-West Connector corridor within its northern limit.  However, both corridors are lightly populated so the OTA eminent domain efforts to improve the Oklahoma transportation infrastructure may outweigh Norman's stated interests as relatively few residents will be personally impacted by OTAs proposals even from a quality of life impact. The Kickapoo could still be extended south east of Lake Thunderbird should the court rule against OTA but there's no good alternative to the East-West Connector corridor.

[Plutonic Panda]

It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand–whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

Well that’a certainly high and mighty but I’ll join the camp who doesn’t care about that one way or another as my faith in the courts to actually make fair and just decisions is next to zero.

[J N Winkler]

It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand–whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

Well that’s certainly high and mighty but I’ll join the camp who doesn’t care about that one way or another as my faith in the courts to actually make fair and just decisions is next to zero.

Public authorities are vested with a tremendous amount of power, so I think it is important for the courts to enforce procedural regularity and transparency, and they generally have a good track record of doing so simply because it is usually a matter of applying black-letter law.  In my experience, doing things right in this way rarely results in projects being delayed or cancelled.  On the other hand, running roughshod over stakeholders' expectations of how the process should work only encourages them to dig in their heels.

What is not clear from the press reporting is why OTA didn't follow the rulebook for this specific design contract.  If it was a simple administrative oversight, why not just admit it?  If they were trying to pull a fast one on the opponents, don't they realize that that trick works only once?