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[RoadRage2023]

I did the math, and with the current toll increases and proposed rates to drive in midtown Manhattan next year,  a commuter from Elizabeth NJ to Midtown would pay approximately $85 in tolls in total to commute both ways. (Using the Optimal Route of I-278/Battery tunnel) With 20 work days a month at least, that's $1700 a month in tolls. That's like paying a 2nd rent! Insane.

Also, I think the plan will end up pushing alot of traffic that normally takes the tunnels up north to the GWB, creating an even worse traffic nightmare than there already is. It may even worsen Staten Island traffic as it will be cheaper than the tunnels + congestion fee combined. Though I wouldn't call $39.38 cheap either.

I live in Brooklyn NYC, and was actually curious if there were forums about these topics.

[The Ghostbuster]

I know many are not happy with the congestion pricing plan. However, I believe that if there is anywhere in the country where a congestion pricing plan might work, it would be in New York City (and especially Manhattan). I only wish that the funds for the congestion pricing plan would go to maintaining the city's streets, freeways, and parkways, not to prop up the mass transit system.

[RoadRage2023]

I agree the money should go toward the roads. The traffic has really become a nightmare in the last few years. Drives in gridlock that used to take maybe 45 min now take a solid 2-3 hours. Never saw so much black and red on Google maps in my life. One thing they never made clear though was how exactly the west side highway and fdr drives would be affected.

[MikeTheActuary]

I'd like more effort to be put into addressing traffic levels in the NYC metro area....but realistically, I'm not certain there's much that can be done (at least not without horrifically expensive property acquisition that will only boost the ranks of regional NIMBYs) aside from various measures to incent more people to switch to transit.

[RoadRage2023]

There isn't much that can be done. The roads are in horrible condition and it's like the number of cars on the road tripled. Traffic jams exist where you've never seen them before. The red and black on the map extends 50+ miles from the city in every direction. The reducing of the BQE by a lane was an absolute disaster. Between Hamilton Ave and Atlantic Ave it can take 40 min, that's an average speed of less than 1 mph. I've sometimes been on my phone at midnight to see that stretch still black.

[chrisg69911]

No one would actually commute from Elizabeth to Midtown paying those tolls, and many people don't in reality either. The NEC runs straight through Elizabeth and drops you at Penn station

[Plutonic Panda]

I'd like more effort to be put into addressing traffic levels in the NYC metro area....but realistically, I'm not certain there's much that can be done (at least not without horrifically expensive property acquisition that will only boost the ranks of regional NIMBYs) aside from various measures to incent more people to switch to transit.

The rest of the world has it figured out. Tunnels.

[Alps]

i will note, on the record, that you are exaggerating how bad these delays actually are.
peak periods: over an hour, not 2-3 hours.
midnight: not "Black". may be delays but on the order of 15-20 minutes.
number of cars on the road is within 5% of what it was in 2017 right now.

[RoadRage2023]

Not from my experience. One time it took me 1 hrs 50 mins to drive from around the Brooklyn Battery tunnel entrance in Brooklyn to the turnpike is Jersey City via I-78. For comparison, one time driving to Maryland from Brooklyn only took an hour + 45 via I-278 and the turnpike. The gridlock is far worse than it used to be. Even in areas where the traffic speeds are the same, say 20 mph, there are more of those areas now. It's hard to find even a 2-3 mile section of road where it's green or even just orange instead of red. "Rush hour" also seems to now be from 1:30 pm to 9:30 pm, even if it is moving smoothly the volume is insane. The BQE I've seen black on Google maps at 1 am.

I've seen roads with traffic jams that were hardly even affected in the past, such I-684, I-84. Long Island traffic extends deep into Suffolk County. Staten Island expressway which used to be a viable alternative to the tunnels is now just as awful. City-caused traffic stretching very deep into CT, like Hartford. Maps often suggest taking surface streets for even 30+ mile trips the expressway traffic is so bad. Bottlenecks that used to be 20-25 mph are now below 10 mph.

[jeffandnicole]

I'd like more effort to be put into addressing traffic levels in the NYC metro area....but realistically, I'm not certain there's much that can be done (at least not without horrifically expensive property acquisition that will only boost the ranks of regional NIMBYs) aside from various measures to incent more people to switch to transit.

The rest of the world has it figured out. Tunnels.

The city is already swarming with tunnels...for the subways. Traffic tunnels would need to be build even lower to avoid interfering with them.

[Duke87]

I did the math, and with the current toll increases and proposed rates to drive in midtown Manhattan next year,  a commuter from Elizabeth NJ to Midtown would pay approximately $85 in tolls in total to commute both ways. (Using the Optimal Route of I-278/Battery tunnel)

First of all, if you're commuting to Manhattan on a daily basis and you insist on getting there by car instead of by train, you need to seriously reevaluate your choices in life.

Second of all, even if you absolutely must make that trip by car, that is not the optimal route. It would make more sense to take the turnpike north and then go in either the Holland or Lincoln Tunnel (depending on where exactly in Manhattan you're headed).

Third of all, even for your weird route that passes through more tolls than necessary, it wouldn't be $85. The peak toll on the Goethals Bridge is $14.75, eastbound only. The Verrazzanno and Battery Tunnel are both $6.94 each way. Exactly what the congestion fee will end up being is TBD but at most it will be $23. That's $65.51 total.

Yes, it would be more if you don't have a NY E-Zpass, but if you're making trips like this regularly you're a damn fool if you don't. Anyone can get one.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'd like more effort to be put into addressing traffic levels in the NYC metro area....but realistically, I'm not certain there's much that can be done (at least not without horrifically expensive property acquisition that will only boost the ranks of regional NIMBYs) aside from various measures to incent more people to switch to transit.

The rest of the world has it figured out. Tunnels.

The city is already swarming with tunnels...for the subways. Traffic tunnels would need to be build even lower to avoid interfering with them.

It’s 2023. I’m not asking for a molecular transporter. I’m pretty sure we could figure it out.

[Rothman]

Not from my experience. One time it took me 1 hrs 50 mins to drive from around the Brooklyn Battery tunnel entrance in Brooklyn to the turnpike is Jersey City via I-78. For comparison, one time driving to Maryland from Brooklyn only took an hour + 45 via I-278 and the turnpike. The gridlock is far worse than it used to be. Even in areas where the traffic speeds are the same, say 20 mph, there are more of those areas now. It's hard to find even a 2-3 mile section of road where it's green or even just orange instead of red. "Rush hour" also seems to now be from 1:30 pm to 9:30 pm, even if it is moving smoothly the volume is insane. The BQE I've seen black on Google maps at 1 am.

I've seen roads with traffic jams that were hardly even affected in the past, such I-684, I-84. Long Island traffic extends deep into Suffolk County. Staten Island expressway which used to be a viable alternative to the tunnels is now just as awful. City-caused traffic stretching very deep into CT, like Hartford. Maps often suggest taking surface streets for even 30+ mile trips the expressway traffic is so bad. Bottlenecks that used to be 20-25 mph are now below 10 mph.

Anecdotes versus data.

[RoadRage2023]

Things like that are happening more frequent than not. Literally every day you check Google maps the red and black roads are extending very far from the city. Sometimes so far it almost looks like the Traffic from Boston/Philadelphia and NYC are about to connect.

Duke yes I know you could probably just take the Lincoln tunnel and the turnpike. But even $65 would still be a good $1,300-$1,400 a month in fees. EZ pass may knock this down to $1,000, but that's still insane per month

[1995hoo]

The whole point is to make the pricing so unpleasant that you'll find some other way to get there, such as mass transit–or even parking on Staten Island or somewhere in Jersey and taking one of the ferries. Why is that in any way difficult to understand?

[RoadRage2023]

Because it's going to worsen traffic in those other areas. Some people have no choice but to drive. NJ Transit and the LIRR /Metro North are still expensive. Now traffic that would have normally been distributed among the Holland/Lincoln tunnels will also head to the GWB to avoid below 60th street. Traffic from Southern NYC will head straight to Staten Island, because that will now be the cheaper than going via Manhattan. I don't getvwhy they are singling out midtown/lower Manhattan. Often the traffic on the avenues there is less than on the existing bridges/tunnels/highway. Might as well put tolls on the Belt Parkway/Long Island Expressway for that purpose.

[kalvado]

Duke yes I know you could probably just take the Lincoln tunnel and the turnpike. But even $65 would still be a good $1,300-$1,400 a month in fees. EZ pass may knock this down to $1,000, but that's still insane per month

That's exactly the point of congestion pricing. To make it a bad idea .
And if someone works in Manhattan, and commutes by car - they probably pay an arm and a leg for parking, and $1000 a month isn't a deal breaker.

[MikeTheActuary]

I'd like more effort to be put into addressing traffic levels in the NYC metro area....but realistically, I'm not certain there's much that can be done (at least not without horrifically expensive property acquisition that will only boost the ranks of regional NIMBYs) aside from various measures to incent more people to switch to transit.

The rest of the world has it figured out. Tunnels.

With tunnels, you still have the problem of land acquisition for the portals, ventilation, and emergency access structures, not to mention the cost and need to work around other tunnels and infrastructure.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'd like more effort to be put into addressing traffic levels in the NYC metro area....but realistically, I'm not certain there's much that can be done (at least not without horrifically expensive property acquisition that will only boost the ranks of regional NIMBYs) aside from various measures to incent more people to switch to transit.

The rest of the world has it figured out. Tunnels.

With tunnels, you still have the problem of land acquisition for the portals, ventilation, and emergency access structures, not to mention the cost and need to work around other tunnels and infrastructure.

Absolutely. And once again, the rest of the world has figured this out. I don’t know why we can’t.

[RoadRage2023]

Duke yes I know you could probably just take the Lincoln tunnel and the turnpike. But even $65 would still be a good $1,300-$1,400 a month in fees. EZ pass may knock this down to $1,000, but that's still insane per month

That's exactly the point of congestion pricing. To make it a bad idea .
And if someone works in Manhattan, and commutes by car - they probably pay an arm and a leg for parking, and $1000 a month isn't a deal breaker.

Well part of the reason for that might be the risk of losing a literal arm of leg if someone pushes you onto the subway tracks or shoots you. Even if the NYC MTA wasn't such a mess, what congestion pricing will do is harm small businesses since know one will want to enter the fee zone. Even people just passing through will be punished. It's not like people who live in Manhattan are going to park their cars in Staten Island.

[1]

1. You don't go onto the city streets of Manhattan if you're passing through, so you won't be charged.
2. NOT EVERYONE USES CARS, especially in the New York City area.
3. You mention being shot. New York City is one of the safest places in the country.

[RoadRage2023]

True, NYC crime rate is at one of the lowest levels overall since the 80s. But, subway crime is through the roof and so is gun crime. Congestion pricing isn't achieving its purpose though if it worsens traffic and pollution in all the areas around it.

[1995hoo]

I ride the subway all the time and I don't feel unsafe. It's easy to avoid being pushed onto the tracks if you don't stand at the edge of the platform looking down the tunnel to see whether the train is coming.

The point remains: The whole intent behind the program is to make it expensive to drive into the congestion charging zone to discourage people from doing so. It has nothing to do with the surrounding area. The OP is simply being stubborn in refusing to acknowledge that point because it doesn't fit his agenda.

[RoadRage2023]

If the purpose is to reduce traffic it is not going to work. It will just make traffic a worse nightmare than it already is in Staten Island and at the GWB. Since the FDR and HH parkways are exempt, those will be flooded with extra traffic as well. Which will in turn, affect the east river bridges and Hudson River crossings. As I said, traffic on random side roads in Manhattan isn't all that bad. This charging zone would literally make more sense on I-278 or the Belt Parkway.

[kalvado]

Duke yes I know you could probably just take the Lincoln tunnel and the turnpike. But even $65 would still be a good $1,300-$1,400 a month in fees. EZ pass may knock this down to $1,000, but that's still insane per month

That's exactly the point of congestion pricing. To make it a bad idea .
And if someone works in Manhattan, and commutes by car - they probably pay an arm and a leg for parking, and $1000 a month isn't a deal breaker.

Well part of the reason for that might be the risk of losing a literal arm of leg if someone pushes you onto the subway tracks or shoots you. Even if the NYC MTA wasn't such a mess, what congestion pricing will do is harm small businesses since know one will want to enter the fee zone. Even people just passing through will be punished. It's not like people who live in Manhattan are going to park their cars in Staten Island.

Someone who is so afraid of Manhattan shouldn't really push for a job there, hence a need for commute.
And yes, Manhattan is one of those few places in US where one can totally live without a car.
There is another fun part about the plan, though:

Residents in the congestion zone making less than $60,000 a year will get a tax credit equal to the tolls they paid.

Makes me wonder if $60k is a physically survivable income over there...