Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[kphoger]

Maybe I-70 from Denver to Salina is a stretch of highway that warrants two control cities in both directions, one near and one far.

I wholeheartedly agree with using two control cities–and I'd love to see more of it pretty much everywhere.  OTOH, who in eastern Kansas doesn't know that Denver is to the west, and that their possible intermediate destination would lie in the same direction? and who in eastern Colorado doesn't know that Kansas City is to the east, and that their possible intermediate destination would lie in the same direction?  Very, very few, I'm sure.

To put a concrete example out there.....a person driving from Denver to Oklahoma City for the first time would be no more confused by seeing "Kansas City" on a guide sign than by seeing "Limon" on a guide sign–let alone "Burlington", "Salina", or any other intermediate place.  Yes, he or she might have an idea that Salina is where to turn south, or might be familiar with Limon for who knows what reason, but it's common knowledge that Kansas and Kansas City lie to the east.  And, if the person has looked at a map of their route at all, it would be really hard to completely miss the fact that I-70 is headed straight for Kansas City.

[The High Plains Traveler]

Maybe I-70 from Denver to Salina is a stretch of highway that warrants two control cities in both directions, one near and one far.

I wholeheartedly agree with using two control cities–and I'd love to see more of it pretty much everywhere.  OTOH, who in eastern Kansas doesn't know that Denver is to the west, and that their possible intermediate destination would lie in the same direction? and who in eastern Colorado doesn't know that Kansas City is to the east, and that their possible intermediate destination would lie in the same direction?  Very, very few, I'm sure.

To put a concrete example out there.....a person driving from Denver to Oklahoma City for the first time would be no more confused by seeing "Kansas City" on a guide sign than by seeing "Limon" on a guide sign–let alone "Burlington", "Salina", or any other intermediate place.  Yes, he or she might have an idea that Salina is where to turn south, or might be familiar with Limon for who knows what reason, but it's common knowledge that Kansas and Kansas City lie to the east.  And, if the person has looked at a map of their route at all, it would be really hard to completely miss the fact that I-70 is headed straight for Kansas City.

An almost perfect analogy - and I know this is outside the geographic coverage of this particular board - is I-25 from Pueblo to Santa Fe. Southbound, consistent with Colorado's use of Limon from Denver, the last pullthrough sign on I-25, in Pueblo, reads Walsenburg. From then on, the only "control" indications are what are listed on mileage signs or at the onramps to I-25 that have destinations. Southbound, Walsenburg then Trinidad are featured on both kinds of signs. There are no distance signs from Pueblo to Trinidad that show anything past Raton. Northbound from Santa Fe, the last pullthrough shows Las Vegas, and then similarly New Mexico seems to use the next significant town as the first destination on distance signs (not sure whether New Mexico onramp signage has destinations through here). In Colorado, though, the onramp signage skips Walsenburg and instead indicates Pueblo. So, by analogy, Walsenburg is I-25's version of Limon.

You could therefore make the same argument you made about Salina or Kansas City about I-25, and say that the control from Pueblo should be Santa Fe or Albuquerque. While I would like to see more long-distance signage in Colorado along I-25 between here and the New Mexico border (mileages to Santa Fe and Albuquerque), I don't think those should be used as actual control cities. And to aid in comparison of distance, Albuquerque is 325 miles south of Pueblo, while Salina is about 435 miles from Denver.

[Milepost61]

Almost perfect analogy Part II:

I'm dealing with plans for the upcoming reconstruction on I-76 east of Brush. In Brush the eastbound city used on the entrance ramps is Sterling, but the bottom line on the existing distance signs is Julesburg. Sterling is the control city so should normally be the bottom line, but there's a lack of names to fill up three lines, so it ends up being Atwood / Sterling / Julesburg.

In this situation it might be logical for the bottom line to jump to the next available control city (North Platte, so you would have 2 control cities listed) but in the interest of staying with precedent I'm using Julesburg. We'll see what happens when I turn the sign plans into CDOT for review.

[Scott5114]

Almost perfect analogy Part II:

I'm dealing with plans for the upcoming reconstruction on I-76 east of Brush. In Brush the eastbound city used on the entrance ramps is Sterling, but the bottom line on the existing distance signs is Julesburg. Sterling is the control city so should normally be the bottom line, but there's a lack of names to fill up three lines, so it ends up being Atwood / Sterling / Julesburg.

In this situation it might be logical for the bottom line to jump to the next available control city (North Platte, so you would have 2 control cities listed) but in the interest of staying with precedent I'm using Julesburg. We'll see what happens when I turn the sign plans into CDOT for review.

Random question–as a sign designer, how do you know what mileage to put on the sign? Is there a CDOT database, or do you just use good ol' Google Maps?

[situveux1]

Another random question... How exactly does one get a job as a sign designer? Sounds like a dream job...

[Revive 755]

^ With either lots of luck.  I get the impression that the designers normally do more than just signs - depending on the employer, they may also due traffic signal plans (for bidding, not the planning of where signals go/warrant analysis) or any other roadway plan sheet.

[Milepost61]

Random question–as a sign designer, how do you know what mileage to put on the sign? Is there a CDOT database, or do you just use good ol' Google Maps?

Normally you can just subtract the exit numbers and add any additional distance along the cross road (the mileage shown is supposed the distance into the town, not just to the exit).

Another random question... How exactly does one get a job as a sign designer? Sounds like a dream job...

Short answer, be a civil engineer and specialize in traffic engineering. In my case I'm a roadway civil engineer that does sign plans on a limited basis.

[J N Winkler]

I get the impression that the designers normally do more than just signs - depending on the employer, they may also do traffic signal plans (for bidding, not the planning of where signals go/warrant analysis) or any other roadway plan sheet.

Traffic design is its own functional discipline, but in addition to signing and signals, it can also include lighting, guardrail, ITS, etc.  Not all of a traffic designer's work product goes into construction plans either.  Depending on how the sign procurement process is structured in a given state DOT, it can also include producing work orders showing each sign at a much higher level of detail (and with more thorough dimensioning) than on the plan sheet.

I don't think I have ever met a traffic designer who did nothing but signs all day long, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of that level of specialization in, e.g., a dedicated sign design unit such as some state DOTs (e.g., MoDOT) have.

I would imagine that a traffic designer who was interested in sign design from a hobby perspective, not just as a way to earn income, would get more satisfaction from being able to work with tools which make it simple to produce pattern-accurate sign layouts, sign panel details, and sign elevation sheets.  State DOTs vary widely in the types of signing sheets they require to be included in signing plans and also in the tools they specify or make available for this purpose.  The state DOTs that produce the majority of the signing sheets I work with conform to a three-part model--sign layout sheets, sign panel detail sheets, and sign elevation sheets for overhead signs only--but this is far from universal.  Some state DOTs produce sign layout sheets only, like Louisiana DOTD and Wyoming DOT; others, like Colorado DOT, produce just sign layouts and sign elevations (what CDOT calls "sign cross-sections").  A few state DOTs like clean signing sheets and go so far as to specify their preferred design packages (Arizona DOT accepts only SignCAD, while others have standardized on GuidSIGN), while others (Montana, for example) have never produced pattern-accurate details for designable signs.  Plus, as time goes on, state DOTs change how they structure the signing sheets in their plans sets.  Ten years ago, Caltrans, KyTC, and NCDOT never used to include sign panel detail sheets in their plans sets--now they routinely do.

A liking for sausage doesn't mean you would be happily employed as a butcher.

[Alps]

I don't think I have ever met a traffic designer who did nothing but signs all day long, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of that level of specialization in, e.g., a dedicated sign design unit such as some state DOTs (e.g., MoDOT) have.

I won't out him, but we have someone here from NYSDOT who pretty much only does sign design.

A liking for sausage doesn't mean you would be happily employed as a butcher.

There are hundreds of people signed up for this forum who have a liking for sausage

[Revive 755]

Short answer, be a civil engineer and specialize in traffic engineering. In my case I'm a roadway civil engineer that does sign plans on a limited basis.

Specialization in college does not always equal employment in the same area in a DOT. You could specialize in Traffic Engineering in college, but get passed over for a traffic job in a DOT and end up as a construction or materials inspector instead - hence the luck component.

Also remember that the one who actually does the sign design does not always get to decide what goes on the sign, or how the sign is arranged.  There are always the statewide standards that usually must be followed.  Then there can be the higher ups that will sometimes seem to think just having a PE license and a few years of experience means they can never be wrong - you could be double checking a signing plan that has a state route shield for a US route, but be unable to do anything about it without getting severely disciplined.

[Scott5114]

Then there can be the higher ups that will sometimes seem to think just having a PE license and a few years of experience means they can never be wrong - you could be double checking a signing plan that has a state route shield for a US route, but be unable to do anything about it without getting severely disciplined.

Putting petty people like that in management seldom goes well for the organization that does it, no matter what their product is.

[minneha]

There has been a lot of standardization in control city signs in western Kansas since this thread was first started. Kansas has been transitioning from using Limon to using Denver as the westbound control city on I-70 west of Hays. As part of that process, they have been replacing Limon signs with Denver signs. This includes both the on-ramp signs and the distance signs. All of the distance signs that had Limon in the terminal position have been removed. In addition, all of the signs that used an "in-between" city such as Oakley or WaKeeney have been removed and replaced with the standard control cities, such as Denver or Hays.

On westbound I-70, Hays is the westbound control city from I-135 to the Toulon Avenue exit. All of the on-ramp signs from I-135 to the Toulon Avenue exit use Hays as the control city. At the Commerce Parkway exit, Denver becomes the westbound control city and remains so until the Colorado border.

On eastbound I-70, Hays is the eastbound control city from the Colorado border to the Yocemento Avenue exit. All of the on-ramp signs from the Colorado border to the Yocemento Avenue exit use Hays as the control city. At the US-183 Bypass exit, Salina becomes the eastbound control city and remains so until the Halstead Road exit. All of the on-ramp signs from the US-183 Bypass exit to the Halstead Road exit use Salina as the control city. At the I-135 exit, Topeka becomes the eastbound control city.

As of September 2023, there were only two Limon on-ramp signs remaining in Kansas, both of which appear to be remnants that haven't been replaced yet. One is a small approach sign just south of the Park exit and one is a small approach sign just south of the Grainfield east exit. Technically these could be considered control city signs, but the Big Green Signs and the north approach signs at these same exits use Denver, so it's pretty clear that Denver is the control city here and that these Limon signs are just old signs that haven't been replaced yet. Other than those two Limon signs, all of the other on-ramp signs from the Commerce Parkway exit to the Colorado border use Denver as the control city.

When it comes to distance signs, Hays is in the terminal position on all of the distance signs on westbound I-70 from I-135 to Hays. Just west of US-183 Bypass, Denver begins to be signed in the terminal position on distance signs. All of the distance signs from US-183 Bypass to the Colorado border have Denver in the terminal position.

Limon is only listed on three distance signs on I-70 between I-135 and the Colorado border and it is not listed in the terminal position on any of those signs. The furthest east that Limon is signed on a distance sign in Kansas is about four miles east of WaKeeney.

The eastbound distance signs from the Colorado border to Hays have Hays in the terminal position, except for two signs which have Topeka in the terminal position. From Hays to Salina, all of the distance signs have Salina in the terminal position.

[minneha]

Distance signs on westbound I-70 between I-135 and the Colorado border, as of September 2023:


K-156  23
Russell  64
Hays  89

Jct K-14  2
Russell  40
Hays  66

Wilson  14
Russell  35
Hays  58

Dorrance  7
Russell  22
Hays  46

Hays  29

Gorham  10
Victoria  17
Hays  25

Hays  9

Ellis  12
WaKeeney  30
Denver  326

K-147  9
WaKeeney  18
Denver  315

WaKeeney  8
Oakley  61
Denver  304

Limon  224
Denver  303

Collyer  12
Oakley  53
Denver  296

Park  16
Oakley  41
Denver  284

Grainfield  5
Oakley  26
Denver  280

Grinnell  8
Oakley  20
Denver  263

Oakley  12
Colby  34
Denver  255

US-83  5
Goodland  56
Denver  244

Colby  16
Goodland  51
Denver  239

Levant  7
Goodland  34
Denver  223

Denver  218

Brewster  8
Goodland  26
Denver  215

K-253  9
Goodland  16
Denver  205

Goodland  7
Denver  197

Kanorado  14
Limon  98
Denver  186

Burlington  13
Limon  90
Denver  176


Distance signs on eastbound I-70 from the Colorado border to I-135, as of September 2023:


Goodland  15
Colby  52
Hays  157

Colby  34
Oakley  56
Hays  139

Brewster  8
Colby  29
Hays  131

Colby  16
Oakley  39
Hays  122

Colby  7
Oakley  29
Hays  112

Hays  110
Salina  205
Topeka  305

Oakley  18
WaKeeney  71
Hays  103

US-40  5
WaKeeney  56
Hays  88

Grinnell  10
WaKeeney  51
Hays  83

Grainfield  8
WaKeeney  40
Hays  76

Park  3
WaKeeney  32
Hays  61

Quinter  8
WaKeeney  28
Hays  60

WaKeeney  12
Ellis  30
Hays  43

K-147  7
Hays  30

Hays  27
Salina  120
Topeka  221

Ellis  10
Hays  23

Hays  16

Victoria  10
Russell  26
Salina  93

Gorham  7
Russell  17
Salina  83

K-232  22
K-14  30
Salina  66

K-14  12
K-156  17
Salina  48

Jct K-156  3
Salina  32

Jct I-135  25
Salina  29

[roadman65]

It should be Denver from Hays west.  Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.

PennDOT does the same for Carlisle over  Harrisburg on I-81 North of Chambersburg.  If you sign a city that lies before a much larger one, then why not just use the larger one.

EB out of Denver, Limon is okay as it’s a split of routes, but WB it serves no point of reference unless you’re going to Pikes Peak, which I’m sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.

[kphoger]

It should be Denver from Hays west.  Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.

Did you even read |minneha|'s posts?  Limon is almost non-existent as a control city now.

WB it serves no point of reference unless you’re going to Pikes Peak, which I’m sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.

Are you pretending Colorado Springs doesn't exist?

[roadman65]

It should be Denver from Hays west.  Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.

Did you even read |minneha|'s posts?  Limon is almost non-existent as a control city now.

WB it serves no point of reference unless you’re going to Pikes Peak, which I’m sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.

Are you pretending Colorado Springs doesn't exist?

It’s the same area. Pikes Peak, Colorado Springs. It’s pretty obvious to what I meant.

[JayhawkCO]

It should be Denver from Hays west.  Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.

Did you even read |minneha|'s posts?  Limon is almost non-existent as a control city now.

WB it serves no point of reference unless you’re going to Pikes Peak, which I’m sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.

Are you pretending Colorado Springs doesn't exist?

It’s the same area. Pikes Peak, Colorado Springs. It’s pretty obvious to what I meant.

But what kphoger is saying is that lots of people are going to Colorado Springs, so therefore it's a useful point of reference. It's not like all of them are driving up the mountain, which is what Kyle was alluding to.

[zzcarp]

It should be Denver from Hays west.  Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.

Did you even read |minneha|'s posts?  Limon is almost non-existent as a control city now.

WB it serves no point of reference unless you’re going to Pikes Peak, which I’m sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.

Are you pretending Colorado Springs doesn't exist?

It’s the same area. Pikes Peak, Colorado Springs. It’s pretty obvious to what I meant.

But what kphoger is saying is that lots of people are going to Colorado Springs, so therefore it's a useful point of reference. It's not like all of them are driving up the mountain, which is what Kyle was alluding to.

El Paso County, which contains Colorado Springs, is the largest single county by population in Colorado. Lots of people go to the Springs for many reasons besides Pikes Peak.

[roadman65]

It should be Denver from Hays west.  Being Limon is just shy of it, why not go all the way.

Did you even read |minneha|'s posts?  Limon is almost non-existent as a control city now.

WB it serves no point of reference unless you’re going to Pikes Peak, which I’m sure is not that many. Just use Denver west of Hays.

Are you pretending Colorado Springs doesn't exist?

It’s the same area. Pikes Peak, Colorado Springs. It’s pretty obvious to what I meant.

But what kphoger is saying is that lots of people are going to Colorado Springs, so therefore it's a useful point of reference. It's not like all of them are driving up the mountain, which is what Kyle was alluding to.

Figurative speech. Just like people referring to Orlando as “ The Mouse”  as Disney is near there.  It’s one of many places in the area.

When I said Pikes Peak I didn’t mean it literally.  I meant the area around it.  I’m sure you all could figure that one out.

[MikieTimT]

My family goes to Colorado Springs much more frequently than Denver, and rarely up Pikes Peak anymore now that we've done the cog railway since reopening.  Lots to do in the vicinity, and lots cleaner than Denver can ever hope to be these days.  Don't even have family or friends there, but it's a better gateway to skiing/snowboarding for visitors from the southeast.

[kphoger]

When I said Pikes Peak I didn’t mean it literally.  I meant the area around it.  I’m sure you all could figure that one out.

Nope, I had no clue that you were referring to Colorado Springs when you said "Pikes Peak".

... unless you’re going to Pikes Peak, which I’m sure is not that many.

Non-truck AADT on US-24 (station 100871) is 41% that of I-70 (station 103095).  Granted, AADTs aren't very high in that area to begin with, but still, I wouldn't call that "not many".

[JayhawkCO]

Driving back from KC last weekend, and I found the easternmost reference to Denver in Kansas. On the turnpike portion of I-470 around Topeka.

[J N Winkler]

Driving back from KC last weekend, and I found the easternmost reference to Denver in Kansas. On the turnpike portion of I-470 around Topeka.

Hmmm?

[JayhawkCO]

I guess specifically as a control city, not necessarily any mention.

[kphoger]

I guess specifically as a control city, not necessarily any mention.

If you stretch the definition of 'control city'...