News:

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered from the forum database changes made in Fall 2023. Let us know if you discover anymore.

Main Menu

Gordie Howe Bridge (US-Canada)

Started by CoolAngrybirdsrio4, January 13, 2022, 02:01:53 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Flint1979

Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 16, 2024, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 16, 2024, 02:19:35 PMI-94 already ends cosigned with I-69 at the Blue Water Bridge, feeding into ON 402.  (fictional-fantasy musing follows) I would sign I-96 up to the Howe Bridge, feeding into ON 401.

Mike
Michigan should have the hidden M-401 designation for their side of the border.
I don't see the point or need in that.


vdeane

#226
I feel like this topic of putting a route number on the US side of the bridge keeps coming up.  It's probably motivated by wanting a fluid connection between the Michigan and Ontario numbered route systems, forgetting that such a connection won't exist on the Ontario side because Ontario doesn't run the 400-series routes on cross-border bridges; all of them end at/near the last interchange (or, in the case of ON 405, where the last interchange used to be before it was removed).

Quote from: mgk920 on June 16, 2024, 01:21:06 PMA decade or so ago I was talking with a USCustoms guy who flat out told me that had the 2001-09-11 thing not happened, Canada and the USA were on track to eliminate the mutual border checkpoints between them by sometime in 2004 and creating a Schengen-style customs union.  When you think about it, keeping an eye on the relatively small number of continental entry ports is a LOT easier, less expensive, with fewer hassles and overall more efficient than monitoring that line that is artificially drawn though some of the most remote land on the planet.

Mike
It's silly that such never happened, especially as the Canadian border wasn't a factor in 9/11 at all.  And now we're stuck with one of the thickest borders between two Western countries.  The change is even visible in how border posts are constructed; pre-9/11 ones are built like glorified toll booths, while post-9/11 ones have a lot more security features (like funneling traffic through a narrow, curved space after the border so someone can't try to run the border).  The old ones could have been demolished and made to look like nothing was ever there with practically just resurfacing the pavement and removing/landscaping the excess.  The newer ones would requite total realignment/reconstruction of the roadbed for at least half a mile in either direction to do the same.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

SEWIGuy

Too many policy differences to make it work. Canada doesn't want American guns. America doesn't want Canada's relative easy asylum process to create a backdoor for additional immigration.

vdeane

Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 17, 2024, 08:52:31 AMToo many policy differences to make it work. Canada doesn't want American guns. America doesn't want Canada's relative easy asylum process to create a backdoor for additional immigration.
Which begs the question of "what changed?".  Columbine was a couple years before 9/11 and any claim that Canada's asylum process led to 9/11 is just fearmongering (and actually, I think the immigration concerns are the reverse these days; Canada doesn't want to see people coming up from the US!).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

mgk920

A couple of decades ago I was thinking that the line was 'We'll trade you our gun laws (oh my if you have more firepower than the gang bangers!) for your legal weed and call it a deal'.

Mike

SSOWorld

Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

KelleyCook

Quote from: vdeane on June 16, 2024, 09:00:48 PMIt's silly that such never happened, especially as the Canadian border wasn't a factor in 9/11 at all.  And now we're stuck with one of the thickest borders between two Western countries.  The change is even visible in how border posts are constructed; pre-9/11 ones are built like glorified toll booths, while post-9/11 ones have a lot more security features (like funneling traffic through a narrow, curved space after the border so someone can't try to run the border).  The old ones could have been demolished and made to look like nothing was ever there with practically just resurfacing the pavement and removing/landscaping the excess.

I was at an event with Carl Levin (the last competent Michigan Senator) a few weeks after 9/11.  As many know  he had power ... as well as something you don't see anymore, bipartisan respect. I noted the obvious fact that  Detroit and Windsor sat on the largest trade border in the world and asked him to please submit a bill to open up the Canadian border the way the EU had already done and share anti-terrorism resources along the whole US/Canada coastlines where resources would be better allocated.

He seemed receptive...

Obviously his cohorts in Washington felt it was better to go in a different direction and we instead got the Patriot Act, the TSA and a massive security apparatus that would make the Stasi jealous. Washington, unsurprisingly, has only got more disfunctional since then.

SEWIGuy

Guys, I don't think you understand that Canada doesn't have much appetite for a Schengen-like border with the United States either. Schengen really only works because all but a couple of the states are also EU members, meaning they have a lot of common legal and economic policies, and because they are in a much more equal relationship with one another. Not meant as an insult, but Canada is like 15% the size of the US.

MikeTheActuary

I seem to recall that the biggest bit of Canadian resistance to opening the border was not wanting to be obliged to go along with some of the US's preferences to general border security.

Pre-9/11, the US's embargo on Cuba would have been the big sticking point.

Today, however... Canadian visas being easier to come by than US visas gives Canada a competitive advantage in some respects (although I suspect a couple of provinces disagree with that level of ease).

1995hoo

These days, the Canadian government's more liberal attitude towards weed is a sticking point (consider the "No weed" warning signs on Canadian highways approaching the border). While the Biden Administration has talked about making federal policy less strict, everything I've read indicates they don't plan anything nearly as permissive as Canada's stance.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

JREwing78

Quote from: Flint1979 on June 16, 2024, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 16, 2024, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 16, 2024, 02:19:35 PMI-94 already ends cosigned with I-69 at the Blue Water Bridge, feeding into ON 402.  (fictional-fantasy musing follows) I would sign I-96 up to the Howe Bridge, feeding into ON 401.

Mike
Michigan should have the hidden M-401 designation for their side of the border.
I don't see the point or need in that.
I don't either. I mean, if we're truly going to be pedantic about this, MDOT could create a "Gordie Howe International Bridge" route designation with a secret Bus I-75 designation (in the vein of the former Capitol Loop) for its portion of the bridge.

Or maybe we designate it M-9, because naming it for Gordie How wasn't obvious enough. Put up a bunch of route shields for maybe a mile of roadway, and let's see how many people end up in Canada thinking they were still in Michigan because it's a M-highway!

This is assuming a 4 mile gap between I-75 and Hwy 401 is truly some kind of crisis that must be resolved with an official route designation, and that simply being the Gordie Howe International Bridge is somehow insufficient.

But if we're going to post totally useless route designations on a bridge, at least get the cardinal directions right. It's SOUTH to go into Canada, and NORTH to go into the United States. Anything else is simply incorrect.

mgk920

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 18, 2024, 09:56:01 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 16, 2024, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 16, 2024, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 16, 2024, 02:19:35 PMI-94 already ends cosigned with I-69 at the Blue Water Bridge, feeding into ON 402.  (fictional-fantasy musing follows) I would sign I-96 up to the Howe Bridge, feeding into ON 401.

Mike
Michigan should have the hidden M-401 designation for their side of the border.
I don't see the point or need in that.
I don't either. I mean, if we're truly going to be pedantic about this, MDOT could create a "Gordie Howe International Bridge" route designation with a secret Bus I-75 designation (in the vein of the former Capitol Loop) for its portion of the bridge.

Or maybe we designate it M-9, because naming it for Gordie How wasn't obvious enough. Put up a bunch of route shields for maybe a mile of roadway, and let's see how many people end up in Canada thinking they were still in Michigan because it's a M-highway!

This is assuming a 4 mile gap between I-75 and Hwy 401 is truly some kind of crisis that must be resolved with an official route designation, and that simply being the Gordie Howe International Bridge is somehow insufficient.

But if we're going to post totally useless route designations on a bridge, at least get the cardinal directions right. It's SOUTH to go into Canada, and NORTH to go into the United States. Anything else is simply incorrect.

"[I-96] (or [whatever]) / TO [ON 401] / (controls such as Windsor/Hamilton/Toronto and Canadian national flag image) "?

Mike

wanderer2575

I've said it before; I'll say it again:  Expect MDOT to have to waste money in litigation if the Detroit International Bridge Co. (owner of the Ambassador Bridge) thinks anything MDOT does promotes use of the Gordie Howe over the Ambassador.  Including Ontario route shields and control cities on signs for the Gordie Howe certainly would trigger them.

triplemultiplex

Fortunately, navigation algorithms will do that for MDOT.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

ilpt4u

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 19, 2024, 02:24:54 PMI've said it before; I'll say it again:  Expect MDOT to have to waste money in litigation if the Detroit International Bridge Co. (owner of the Ambassador Bridge) thinks anything MDOT does promotes use of the Gordie Howe over the Ambassador.  Including Ontario route shields and control cities on signs for the Gordie Howe certainly would trigger them.
Would love to see Ontario's DOT or the bridge authority buy billboards along the Interstate on approaches with the ad for the Howe and ON 401 and Toronto and Hamilton and Windsor

mgk920

Quote from: ilpt4u on June 19, 2024, 07:51:03 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 19, 2024, 02:24:54 PMI've said it before; I'll say it again:  Expect MDOT to have to waste money in litigation if the Detroit International Bridge Co. (owner of the Ambassador Bridge) thinks anything MDOT does promotes use of the Gordie Howe over the Ambassador.  Including Ontario route shields and control cities on signs for the Gordie Howe certainly would trigger them.
Would love to see Ontario's DOT or the bridge authority buy billboards along the Interstate on approaches with the ad for the Howe and ON 401 and Toronto and Hamilton and Windsor

It would definitely be interesting, indeed, if MTO (Ontario Ministry of Transportation) buys such ads, even on other media.

 :nod:

Mike

SSOWorld

#241
Quote from: mgk920 on June 19, 2024, 11:40:37 AM"[I-96] (or [whatever]) / TO [ON 401] / (controls such as Windsor/Hamilton/Toronto and Canadian national flag image) "?

Mike

They'll do it like the other bridges

[Maple Leaf]

Bridge to Canada

Most USA State DOTs don't put up signs of direction to signs for other countries control points outside a generic grand point.  Those that do will put it up as a supplementary.  This holds true for most of the signs in Mexico and Canada.  Exceptions:

* Vancouver BC on I-5, but no BC-99 other than one sign showing the 3 options including such.
* Winnepeg on I-29 - but no PTR 75.
* Montreal on I-87 - but (AFAIK) no A-15.
* Monterrey is indicated on I-35 near Laredo as a supplementary sign.
* Tijuana, Rosario and Ensenada are set up on a distance sign on I-5
* Juarez for I-110 El Paso, no MEX-45
MN and MI stop showing control points at the border full stop, nothing for Canada.  This is true for almost every minor crossing
The obvious exceptions are right at the border say in VT.
When it comes to Mexico, both TX and CA (outside the above) have "International Border" (or an abbreviated form).
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

Flint1979

Quote from: mgk920 on June 19, 2024, 11:40:37 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on June 18, 2024, 09:56:01 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 16, 2024, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 16, 2024, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 16, 2024, 02:19:35 PMI-94 already ends cosigned with I-69 at the Blue Water Bridge, feeding into ON 402.  (fictional-fantasy musing follows) I would sign I-96 up to the Howe Bridge, feeding into ON 401.

Mike
Michigan should have the hidden M-401 designation for their side of the border.
I don't see the point or need in that.
I don't either. I mean, if we're truly going to be pedantic about this, MDOT could create a "Gordie Howe International Bridge" route designation with a secret Bus I-75 designation (in the vein of the former Capitol Loop) for its portion of the bridge.

Or maybe we designate it M-9, because naming it for Gordie How wasn't obvious enough. Put up a bunch of route shields for maybe a mile of roadway, and let's see how many people end up in Canada thinking they were still in Michigan because it's a M-highway!

This is assuming a 4 mile gap between I-75 and Hwy 401 is truly some kind of crisis that must be resolved with an official route designation, and that simply being the Gordie Howe International Bridge is somehow insufficient.

But if we're going to post totally useless route designations on a bridge, at least get the cardinal directions right. It's SOUTH to go into Canada, and NORTH to go into the United States. Anything else is simply incorrect.

"[I-96] (or [whatever]) / TO [ON 401] / (controls such as Windsor/Hamilton/Toronto and Canadian national flag image) "?

Mike
You will never see a city from Canada as a control city in Michigan. It'll simply be Canada. And I-96 ends at I-75 it doesn't need to be extended.

vdeane

Quote from: SSOWorld on June 21, 2024, 07:13:26 AM* Montreal on I-87 - but (AFAIK) no A-15.
Not on guide signs, but it is signed from major interchanges as far south as Lake George.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

abqtraveler

Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 16, 2024, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 16, 2024, 02:19:35 PMI-94 already ends cosigned with I-69 at the Blue Water Bridge, feeding into ON 402.  (fictional-fantasy musing follows) I would sign I-96 up to the Howe Bridge, feeding into ON 401.

Mike
Michigan should have the hidden M-401 designation for their side of the border.
How about Interstate 401? :bigass:
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

SSOWorld

Quote from: abqtraveler on June 21, 2024, 02:20:47 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 16, 2024, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 16, 2024, 02:19:35 PMI-94 already ends cosigned with I-69 at the Blue Water Bridge, feeding into ON 402.  (fictional-fantasy musing follows) I would sign I-96 up to the Howe Bridge, feeding into ON 401.

Mike
Michigan should have the hidden M-401 designation for their side of the border.
How about Interstate 401? :bigass:
Definitely need a toll on that to authorize your driving it.
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.