Rural Freeways That Need Six Lanes

Started by webny99, January 01, 2019, 12:58:05 PM

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ethanhopkin14

Quote from: sprjus4 on December 02, 2022, 10:46:28 PM
^ I used the entire portion of I-12 this past summer, and it was nothing but a long bottleneck. The six lane portions moved well, but the 4 lane sections were tight. Moving, but very heavy.

It definitely warrants 6 lanes throughout.

Its one of those roads where you are driving 60-70 mph, but your jammed in tight and you are sweating the whole way. 


webny99

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on December 06, 2022, 10:31:40 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 02, 2022, 10:46:28 PM
^ I used the entire portion of I-12 this past summer, and it was nothing but a long bottleneck. The six lane portions moved well, but the 4 lane sections were tight. Moving, but very heavy.

It definitely warrants 6 lanes throughout.

Its one of those roads where you are driving 60-70 mph, but your jammed in tight and you are sweating the whole way.

That's also much of the NY Thruway during summer, weekends, and other peak travel periods. Truck volumes are manageable compared to further south and west, but you rarely get an open stretch and if you do, it won't be long before faster traffic fills the road ahead.

sprjus4

Quote from: D-Dey65 on December 06, 2022, 09:00:21 AM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on November 27, 2022, 01:54:30 PM
I'm sure it's been mentioned, but I would include I-81 from Scranton, PA all the way south to its end with I-40 in Dandridge, TN.
I agree, and I also think I-95 from the Savannah River to Petersburg, Virginia, needs six lanes. I know there was this argument over whether I-95 or I-81 should be more of a priority in Virginia, but I'm not going to favor one or the other.

Actually, I'm leaning towards the 2-2-2-2 cars only vs truck lanes in Virginia.
The argument about I-95 was in regards to the existing six lane portion north of Richmond. While it is six lanes, it carries well over 100,000 AADT and is often congested.

I-81 only carries 40,000 AADT but only has 4 lanes and significantly higher truck volumes. Congestion is frequent during peak weekends and this issue spans through the entire 325 mile stretch in Virginia, except in the few six lane portions, where it moves quite well.

achilles765

Honestly, from what i remember and have experienced, most of the routes in our Texas triangle could benefit from this. Not just I-10 from San Antonio to the Mississippi state line, but also the entire 289 miles of I-45 from Galveston all the way to Dallas. I mean it already is from Galveston to north of Conroe but the stretch between Conroe and Dallas is always packed with people rushing by at 75-80 mph.
All of I-35 from at least San Antonio to Oklahoma, including all of I-35E and I-35W.
Heck I'd even say it wouldn't be insane to do it for I-37 too.
I love freeways and roads in any state but Texas will always be first in my heart

sprjus4

^ From my experience, I-37 gets a decent amount of traffic, but is more than adequate with 4 lanes, and I've never experienced recurring congestion having driven that route numerous times. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I've never seen it. There are certainly more pressing needs than widening that highway for 100+ miles to 6 lanes.

webny99

Quote from: sprjus4 on December 08, 2022, 08:29:56 AM
^ From my experience, I-37 gets a decent amount of traffic, but is more than adequate with 4 lanes, and I've never experienced recurring congestion having driven that route numerous times. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I've never seen it. There are certainly more pressing needs than widening that highway for 100+ miles to 6 lanes.

I also didn't encounter any slowdowns or congestion on I-37 when I drove its entire length back in 2017. I-10 and I-45 would be much higher priority IMO.

I-45 is well on its way, with Conroe to Huntsville now being 6-lanes, plus 6-lanes south of Dallas as far as Streetman, leaving a gap of exactly 100 miles.

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2022, 09:11:45 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 08, 2022, 08:29:56 AM
^ From my experience, I-37 gets a decent amount of traffic, but is more than adequate with 4 lanes, and I've never experienced recurring congestion having driven that route numerous times. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I've never seen it. There are certainly more pressing needs than widening that highway for 100+ miles to 6 lanes.

I also didn't encounter any slowdowns or congestion on I-37 when I drove its entire length back in 2017. I-10 and I-45 would be much higher priority IMO.

I-45 is well on its way, with Conroe to Huntsville now being 6-lanes, plus 6-lanes south of Dallas as far as Streetman, leaving a gap of exactly 100 miles.

I-37 used to be a rural interstate experience in the 80s and 90s.  The last handful of trips I have taken to Corpus Christi and back, the road is jam packed constantly.  Yes, there are no slowdowns, but bumper to bumper 70 mile an hour traffic.  There are too many people in this state and too many of them want to go to Port Aransas for the weekend.  I would agree four lanes is adequate, but if the money is there, adding an extra two lanes would be nice. 

J N Winkler

Defining the Texas Triangle as having its vertices at DFW, Houston, and San Antonio, with I-35, I-10, and I-45 forming the legs, here is the situation:

*  AADT on I-35 never goes below 30,000 VPD between San Antonio and DFW and traffic on rural segments is typically at least double that value.  It is in the process of being upgraded to a minimum six lanes.

*  AADT on I-10 never goes below 30,000 VPD between San Antonio and Houston (as noted upthread), though it does come close to that threshold in the more rural areas.  It is relatively low priority for widening.

*  AADT on I-45 stays consistently above 30,000 VPD between Houston and DFW, though there is an extended length between Corsicana and Huntsville where it is generally under 40,000 VPD.  It is being widened through Montgomery County, just north of Houston; it has an AADT of around 150,000 through Conroe, the county seat.

As for I-37, its AADT is below, though close to, the 30,000 VPD threshold between Pleasanton and the US 77 interchange just to the northwest of Corpus Christi.  Unpleasant as it can get on holidays and summer weekends--and this is an illustration of how the distribution of traffic in time as well as space can play a role in whether a facility meets criteria for widening that are based on carrying a design hour volume at a given level of service--I do not see it receiving attention before the Texas Triangle routes.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

sprjus4

Quote from: J N Winkler on December 08, 2022, 12:56:23 PM
*  AADT on I-35 never goes below 30,000 VPD between San Antonio and DFW and traffic on rural segments is typically at least double that value.  It is in the process of being upgraded to a minimum six lanes.
I-35 is already a minimum of six lanes between the I-35E/W southern split and San Antonio. Major work was completed over the last decade or two to accomplish this. I believe work is ongoing to widen I-35E to 6 lanes as well. Work is underway / planned through Austin and Waco to widen it to 8 lanes or greater in those urban centers.

Quote
*  AADT on I-10 never goes below 30,000 VPD between San Antonio and Houston (as noted upthread), though it does come close to that threshold in the more rural areas.  It is relatively low priority for widening.
Low priority, but 50+ miles are under construction stretching well outside of the Houston metro to the west, and continuing to be extended eastward out of San Antonio.

Quote
As for I-37, its AADT is below, though close to, the 30,000 VPD threshold between Pleasanton and the US 77 interchange just to the northwest of Corpus Christi.  Unpleasant as it can get on holidays and summer weekends--and this is an illustration of how the distribution of traffic in time as well as space can play a role in whether a facility meets criteria for widening that are based on carrying a design hour volume at a given level of service--I do not see it receiving attention before the Texas Triangle routes.
Agreed... perhaps in the 20-30 horizon, but it's a priority after I-10, I-35, and I-45 are fully widened to 6 lanes minimum in the Triangle.

US-77 northeast of Corpus Christi has some rural portions that carry significant amounts of traffic... upgrading those to limited access (I-69E) will also be a competing priority, from a safety standpoint. Not enough to warrant 6 lanes... for now.

webny99

#634
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 08, 2022, 12:56:23 PM
*  AADT on I-45 stays consistently above 30,000 VPD between Houston and DFW, though there is an extended length between Corsicana and Huntsville where it is generally under 40,000 VPD.  It is being widened through Montgomery County, just north of Houston; it has an AADT of around 150,000 through Conroe, the county seat.

Per Street View from earlier this year, minimum six lanes appears to be substantially complete as far as TX 19 (Huntsville) with an apparent widening underway in the Huntsville area.


Quote from: sprjus4 on December 08, 2022, 01:21:13 PM
I believe work is ongoing to widen I-35E to 6 lanes as well. Work is underway / planned through Austin and Waco to widen it to 8 lanes or greater in those urban centers.

It appears that the southernmost section of I-35E is currently being widened. I haven't verified but I believe this will complete at least 6-lanes from there to Dallas. I-35W is still 4-lanes south of Burleson.

webny99

Quote from: sprjus4 on December 08, 2022, 01:21:13 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 08, 2022, 12:56:23 PM
As for I-37, its AADT is below, though close to, the 30,000 VPD threshold between Pleasanton and the US 77 interchange just to the northwest of Corpus Christi.  Unpleasant as it can get on holidays and summer weekends--and this is an illustration of how the distribution of traffic in time as well as space can play a role in whether a facility meets criteria for widening that are based on carrying a design hour volume at a given level of service--I do not see it receiving attention before the Texas Triangle routes.
Agreed... perhaps in the 20-30 horizon, but it's a priority after I-10, I-35, and I-45 are fully widened to 6 lanes minimum in the Triangle.

US-77 northeast of Corpus Christi has some rural portions that carry significant amounts of traffic... upgrading those to limited access (I-69E) will also be a competing priority, from a safety standpoint. Not enough to warrant 6 lanes... for now.

As an aside from the six-laning topic, what is the US 77/US 59 corridor like between Corpus Christi and Houston? Are there any good alternate routes? My guess would be that this corridor handles similar volumes to I-37, in which case upgrading it to a full freeway would be a higher priority than an I-37 widening.

J N Winkler

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2022, 04:11:13 PMAs an aside from the six-laning topic, what is the US 77/US 59 corridor like between Corpus Christi and Houston? Are there any good alternate routes? My guess would be that this corridor handles similar volumes to I-37, in which case upgrading it to a full freeway would be a higher priority than an I-37 widening.

Along the rural lengths between Victoria and Sinton (US 77 only), the volumes are slightly over half those seen on I-37.  Between Victoria and Rosenberg (southwest of Houston) (US 59 only), they are more substantial--generally in the 25,000 to 35,000 VPD range.  US 59 has been upgraded to full freeway southwest of Houston at least as far as Kendleton, but there appear still to be flat intersections in rural areas further out.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2022, 03:57:53 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 08, 2022, 12:56:23 PM
*  AADT on I-45 stays consistently above 30,000 VPD between Houston and DFW, though there is an extended length between Corsicana and Huntsville where it is generally under 40,000 VPD.  It is being widened through Montgomery County, just north of Houston; it has an AADT of around 150,000 through Conroe, the county seat.

Per Street View from earlier this year, minimum six lanes appears to be substantially complete as far as TX 19 (Huntsville) with an apparent widening underway in the Huntsville area.


Quote from: sprjus4 on December 08, 2022, 01:21:13 PM
I believe work is ongoing to widen I-35E to 6 lanes as well. Work is underway / planned through Austin and Waco to widen it to 8 lanes or greater in those urban centers.

It appears that the southernmost section of I-35E is currently being widened. I haven't verified but I believe this will complete at least 6-lanes from there to Dallas. I-35W is still 4-lanes south of Burleson.
Are there any plans to expand I-35W south of Fort Worth?

sprjus4

Quote from: J N Winkler on December 08, 2022, 04:28:09 PM
Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2022, 04:11:13 PMAs an aside from the six-laning topic, what is the US 77/US 59 corridor like between Corpus Christi and Houston? Are there any good alternate routes? My guess would be that this corridor handles similar volumes to I-37, in which case upgrading it to a full freeway would be a higher priority than an I-37 widening.

Along the rural lengths between Victoria and Sinton (US 77 only), the volumes are slightly over half those seen on I-37.  Between Victoria and Rosenberg (southwest of Houston) (US 59 only), they are more substantial--generally in the 25,000 to 35,000 VPD range.  US 59 has been upgraded to full freeway southwest of Houston at least as far as Kendleton, but there appear still to be flat intersections in rural areas further out.
True, I'd guess they're in the 15,000 - 20,000 AADT range. But it is starting to get to the warrants for freeway upgrades.

The plus at least is that there are very few substantial intersections, there are no traffic signals (not counting Refugio and Odem that need bypasses), and interchanges and grade separations exist at busier intersections.

It easily (though can be substantially busy regardless) can handle the traffic with a 75 mph speed limit.

As far as US-59, the freeway has been built out to Kendleton along with being widened to 6 lanes, and construction is currently underway to extend the limited access further south to Wharton.

fillup420

I-85 from the Durham county line heading "south" towards I-40 is in desperate need of a 3rd lane in each direction. Afternoon rush hour almost every day creates a big choke point where NC 147 merges into 85 south. This creates a situation of 5 total traffic lanes merging down to 2. The road becomes rural after crossing the Durham/Orange county line, and 85 narrows to 4 lanes total for about 10 miles until the merge with 40, then its 8 lanes to Greensboro. The setup seems rather silly to me, since 85 is both a long distance route and local commuter route at that point.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: fillup420 on December 08, 2022, 05:33:39 PM
I-85 from the Durham county line heading "south" towards I-40 is in desperate need of a 3rd lane in each direction. Afternoon rush hour almost every day creates a big choke point where NC 147 merges into 85 south. This creates a situation of 5 total traffic lanes merging down to 2. The road becomes rural after crossing the Durham/Orange county line, and 85 narrows to 4 lanes total for about 10 miles until the merge with 40, then its 8 lanes to Greensboro. The setup seems rather silly to me, since 85 is both a long distance route and local commuter route at that point.

This section of I-85 has made the Top Five on NCDOT's STIP (or equivalent) list off-and-on ever since I moved here in early 2000.  In days gone by, roads were graded by Peak VPHPD (vehicles per hour per direction), such that when you divide by the number of lanes you get a rough estimate of rush hour traffic density (vehicles per second).  Combine that with average speed during the peak, and you get a good calculation of congestion per lane.  I don't want to get into the politics behind it, but the notion of calculating Peak VPHPD (or releasing that statistic to the public) is now taboo.  But I-40 between Durham and Hillsborough has consistently had a greater AADT count that I-85 between Durham and Hillsborough since 2000. 

With the congestion on the Durham Freeway since the start of the East End Connector (I-885), RTP traffic (Research Triangle Park) has been forced to take I-40.  (Before then, the two routes were roughly equivalent in mileage and time between The Split and RTP).  I-85 -to- Durham Freeway -to- RTP will never return as a comparable option, since I-885 is now pouring too much traffic down the Durham Freeway portion and traffic jams up back of that merge.

But it was an eyeopener that on Friday, October 28 that WPTF announced on its first traffic report of the afternoon (12:08PM) that "the 'usual' backup on I-40 at Fifteen-Five-Oh-One was 10 minutes".  What that really meant was "Leaf Looker" vacationers leaving work early were already choking up I-40 where the [northbound] lanes merge from three down to two at the Orange County line.  But it is still a shocker that this gets jammed up by 3:15PM every workday.

Dirt Roads

^^^
Instead of the whole ball of wax, NCDOT really needs to widen I-85 [westbound] from the Orange County line to Exit 170, and between the two Hillsborough exits (Exit 165 Hampton Pointe and Exit 164 South Churton Street).  But figuring out where exactly to widen I-85 [eastbound] as a quick solution is a different ball of wax.  The worst pinch points are consistently the bridge over South Churton Street, the upgrade after Exit 165 (Hampton Pointe), and the bridge over US-70 at Exit 170 plus that onramp merge.  I'm thinking that climbing lanes would help in the latter two cases.  But the solution really requires widening all the way from The Split -to- the crest beyond the Lawrence Road overpass (which is almost half of the [eastbound] widening project, and pretty much all of the most costly sections).

I've always wondered if instead of widening both lanes of I-40 (which started in earnest after Thanksgiving), NCDOT could have gotten bigger bang for the buck by widening the [northbound] lanes of I-40 first and then the [westbound] lanes of I-85 next.  Morning rush hour is usually hectic, but the different schedules between hospital hours (7AM), techie hours (8AM) and banker hours (9AM) spreads the morning rush over a longer window.  The evening rush upgrade on Occoneechee Mountain is a problem on both I-40 and I-85.

Road Hog

Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2022, 03:57:53 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 08, 2022, 12:56:23 PM
*  AADT on I-45 stays consistently above 30,000 VPD between Houston and DFW, though there is an extended length between Corsicana and Huntsville where it is generally under 40,000 VPD.  It is being widened through Montgomery County, just north of Houston; it has an AADT of around 150,000 through Conroe, the county seat.

Per Street View from earlier this year, minimum six lanes appears to be substantially complete as far as TX 19 (Huntsville) with an apparent widening underway in the Huntsville area.


Quote from: sprjus4 on December 08, 2022, 01:21:13 PM
I believe work is ongoing to widen I-35E to 6 lanes as well. Work is underway / planned through Austin and Waco to widen it to 8 lanes or greater in those urban centers.

It appears that the southernmost section of I-35E is currently being widened. I haven't verified but I believe this will complete at least 6-lanes from there to Dallas. I-35W is still 4-lanes south of Burleson.
I-35E is now 6 lanes all the way south to the Ellis-Hill county line. A major widening project to fill the last 4-lane gap through Waxahachie is finally wrapping up. There will be a short 4-lane stretch in Hill County leading up to the split, but traffic in this section is lighter. South of the split, it's all 6-lane now at least.

webny99

Quote from: Road Hog on December 08, 2022, 10:21:53 PM
Quote from: webny99 on December 08, 2022, 03:57:53 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 08, 2022, 01:21:13 PM
I believe work is ongoing to widen I-35E to 6 lanes as well. Work is underway / planned through Austin and Waco to widen it to 8 lanes or greater in those urban centers.

It appears that the southernmost section of I-35E is currently being widened. I haven't verified but I believe this will complete at least 6-lanes from there to Dallas. I-35W is still 4-lanes south of Burleson.
I-35E is now 6 lanes all the way south to the Ellis-Hill county line. A major widening project to fill the last 4-lane gap through Waxahachie is finally wrapping up. There will be a short 4-lane stretch in Hill County leading up to the split, but traffic in this section is lighter. South of the split, it's all 6-lane now at least.

:thumbsup: That's great to hear.

webny99

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 08, 2022, 08:20:33 PM
Quote from: fillup420 on December 08, 2022, 05:33:39 PM
I-85 from the Durham county line heading "south" towards I-40 is in desperate need of a 3rd lane in each direction. Afternoon rush hour almost every day creates a big choke point where NC 147 merges into 85 south. This creates a situation of 5 total traffic lanes merging down to 2. The road becomes rural after crossing the Durham/Orange county line, and 85 narrows to 4 lanes total for about 10 miles until the merge with 40, then its 8 lanes to Greensboro. The setup seems rather silly to me, since 85 is both a long distance route and local commuter route at that point.

This section of I-85 has made the Top Five on NCDOT's STIP (or equivalent) list off-and-on ever since I moved here in early 2000.  In days gone by, roads were graded by Peak VPHPD (vehicles per hour per direction), such that when you divide by the number of lanes you get a rough estimate of rush hour traffic density (vehicles per second).  Combine that with average speed during the peak, and you get a good calculation of congestion per lane.  I don't want to get into the politics behind it, but the notion of calculating Peak VPHPD (or releasing that statistic to the public) is now taboo.  But I-40 between Durham and Hillsborough has consistently had a greater AADT count that I-85 between Durham and Hillsborough since 2000. 

Wow, it is surprising that both I-40 and I-85 are still 4-lanes after their split. What are the AADT counts like on their respective 4-lane sections?

sprjus4

^ Construction recently began and is underway to widen I-40 between I-85 and US-15 to six lanes.

I-85, on the other hand, has no widening programmed, despite its need.

As far as traffic volumes... I-40 has 54,000 AADT east of the split but quickly jumps to 60,500 AADT at Old NC-86.

I-85 has 47,000 AADT east / north of the split.

Both highways volumes increase as they continue eastward.

webny99

Quote from: sprjus4 on December 09, 2022, 10:32:32 AM
^ Construction recently began and is underway to widen I-40 between I-85 and US-15 to six lanes.

I-85, on the other hand, has no widening programmed, despite its need.

As far as traffic volumes... I-40 has 54,000 AADT east of the split but quickly jumps to 60,500 AADT at Old NC-86.

I-85 has 47,000 AADT east / north of the split.

Both highways volumes increase as they continue eastward.

That's actually more manageable than I was expecting. Both could certainly could use widening, but it's not completely crazy like some of the 4-lane freeways in Philly or Pittsburgh. The bigger issue is with I-85 seems to be the merge with so many lanes funneling into just 2 lanes. And then of course if both were widened, that may just shift the congestion to west of where they join.

sprjus4

^ I-85 is 6 lanes immediately east of where it splits from I-40, then drops to 4 lanes. So that merge would be unaffected.

webny99

Quote from: sprjus4 on December 09, 2022, 01:21:19 PM
^ I-85 is 6 lanes immediately east of where it splits from I-40, then drops to 4 lanes. So that merge would be unaffected.

Although more traffic would be able to reach the merge with I-40 at a faster rate, since the 4-lane section currently constrains it.

Ted$8roadFan

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 08, 2022, 08:20:33 PM
Quote from: fillup420 on December 08, 2022, 05:33:39 PM
I-85 from the Durham county line heading "south" towards I-40 is in desperate need of a 3rd lane in each direction. Afternoon rush hour almost every day creates a big choke point where NC 147 merges into 85 south. This creates a situation of 5 total traffic lanes merging down to 2. The road becomes rural after crossing the Durham/Orange county line, and 85 narrows to 4 lanes total for about 10 miles until the merge with 40, then its 8 lanes to Greensboro. The setup seems rather silly to me, since 85 is both a long distance route and local commuter route at that point.

This section of I-85 has made the Top Five on NCDOT's STIP (or equivalent) list off-and-on ever since I moved here in early 2000.  In days gone by, roads were graded by Peak VPHPD (vehicles per hour per direction), such that when you divide by the number of lanes you get a rough estimate of rush hour traffic density (vehicles per second).  Combine that with average speed during the peak, and you get a good calculation of congestion per lane.  I don't want to get into the politics behind it, but the notion of calculating Peak VPHPD (or releasing that statistic to the public) is now taboo.  But I-40 between Durham and Hillsborough has consistently had a greater AADT count that I-85 between Durham and Hillsborough since 2000. 

With the congestion on the Durham Freeway since the start of the East End Connector (I-885), RTP traffic (Research Triangle Park) has been forced to take I-40.  (Before then, the two routes were roughly equivalent in mileage and time between The Split and RTP).  I-85 -to- Durham Freeway -to- RTP will never return as a comparable option, since I-885 is now pouring too much traffic down the Durham Freeway portion and traffic jams up back of that merge.

But it was an eyeopener that on Friday, October 28 that WPTF announced on its first traffic report of the afternoon (12:08PM) that "the 'usual' backup on I-40 at Fifteen-Five-Oh-One was 10 minutes".  What that really meant was "Leaf Looker" vacationers leaving work early were already choking up I-40 where the [northbound] lanes merge from three down to two at the Orange County line.  But it is still a shocker that this gets jammed up by 3:15PM every workday.

Can confirm.



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