Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly

Started by mass_citizen, December 04, 2013, 10:46:35 PM

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D-Dey65

Okay, more odd ones. I suspect this might be acceptable under MUTCD's emergency management classification:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sand_Bags_sign_on_Anderson_Snow_Road;_October_2018.jpg


If not, perhaps it should be.



ipeters61

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on November 08, 2018, 10:57:29 PM
With the Bushnell Theater in the background of the last picture. The state capitol is with that lawn BTW. :)
Aha...funny thing is even though I lived in Hartford County for 14 years, I never knew where the Bushnell actually was (simply put, I never really went to Hartford much, even though my father worked there).  Only reason I mentioned the State Library was because that was my destination that day.  I do remember the Capitol being in the vicinity though!
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
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roadfro

Quote from: D-Dey65 on November 08, 2018, 11:08:38 PM
Okay, more odd ones. I suspect this might be acceptable under MUTCD's emergency management classification:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sand_Bags_sign_on_Anderson_Snow_Road;_October_2018.jpg


If not, perhaps it should be.

That one is probably not even covered by the MUTCD since it's not a traffic control device. If it should be covered by MUTCD, I don't even think the incident management category (black on pink) is appropriate, and should probably be a guide (white on green) or motorist service (white on blue) sign.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

roadman65

Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

jakeroot

I've learned that one of the major differences between OR and WA is that, in WA, you can enter intersections and turn, or go straight, on a yellow light (yellow and green are the same thing). But in OR, a yellow light means the same thing as red, except that you can go through on yellow only if you physically can't stop. WA has a "permissive" yellow law, while OR has a "restrictive" yellow law.

So far, I'd never actually seen this law signed, but I did find this sign today in OR, which would be illegal in states like WA with permissive yellow laws. Frankly, I think the sign is dumb and should be removed. Slamming on the brakes on yellow is a safety hazard, but is apparently a driver's only recourse at this signal if there's no gaps.

https://goo.gl/apVQzQ


Kniwt

Snow Canyon State Park (unsigned UT 300). I trust that the poop is MUTCD-compliant.


MNHighwayMan

Quote from: Kniwt on November 10, 2018, 08:22:12 PM
I trust that the poop is MUTCD-compliant.

Makes me think that the FHWA Series needs to be extended to include emojis. :bigass:

7/8

Quote from: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 06:56:11 PM
I've learned that one of the major differences between OR and WA is that, in WA, you can enter intersections and turn, or go straight, on a yellow light (yellow and green are the same thing). But in OR, a yellow light means the same thing as red, except that you can go through on yellow only if you physically can't stop. WA has a "permissive" yellow law, while OR has a "restrictive" yellow law.

So far, I'd never actually seen this law signed, but I did find this sign today in OR, which would be illegal in states like WA with permissive yellow laws. Frankly, I think the sign is dumb and should be removed. Slamming on the brakes on yellow is a safety hazard, but is apparently a driver's only recourse at this signal if there's no gaps.

https://goo.gl/apVQzQ



Does that mean you can't sit in the intersection when waiting to make a permissive left? That would be very frustrating.

jakeroot

Quote from: 7/8 on November 10, 2018, 08:34:58 PM
Does that mean you can't sit in the intersection when waiting to make a permissive left? That would be very frustrating.

In states with that dumb "restricted" yellow law, basically yeah. There's a reason I don't live in a state like Oregon! Such a simple maneuver that should not be illegal.

7/8

Quote from: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 08:41:13 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on November 10, 2018, 08:34:58 PM
Does that mean you can't sit in the intersection when waiting to make a permissive left? That would be very frustrating.

In states with that dumb "restricted" yellow law, basically yeah. There's a reason I don't live in a state like Oregon! Such a simple maneuver that should not be illegal.

Damn, that could make a big difference at a busy intersection for throughput.

Do you know which other states have this rule? My quick forum/google searching isn't turning up anything.

jakeroot

Quote from: 7/8 on November 10, 2018, 08:50:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 08:41:13 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on November 10, 2018, 08:34:58 PM
Does that mean you can't sit in the intersection when waiting to make a permissive left? That would be very frustrating.

In states with that dumb "restricted" yellow law, basically yeah. There's a reason I don't live in a state like Oregon! Such a simple maneuver that should not be illegal.

Damn, that could make a big difference at a busy intersection for throughput.

Do you know which other states have this rule? My quick forum/google searching isn't turning up anything.

This is a PDF prepared by Mats Järlström, an Oregonian whose wife was handed a (IMO) very unjust ticket at a traffic light camera. It lists eight states with restrictive laws:

http://www.jarlstrom.com/PDF/Exhibit_1_FINAL_An_investigation_of_the_ITE_formula_and_its_use_R14.pdf

The states are Iowa, Michigan, Mississippi, Nebraska, New Jersey, Oregon, Virginia, and Wisconsin. In these states, the only difference is that their law specifically requires drivers to stop on yellow if possible. Other states don't require drivers do anything on yellow other than acknowledge its existence.

Weirdly, it is common practice in several of these states to turn from the middle of the intersection. I didn't know it was the rule in Virginia and I do it all the time there (though I drive mostly in DC where it's technically OK).

Edit for clarification: it is legal in all states to enter the intersection to turn left but in some you have to finish the turn before red. Apparently before yellow at that Oregon intersection above.

KEVIN_224

Quote from: ipeters61 on November 08, 2018, 11:14:21 PM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on November 08, 2018, 10:57:29 PM
With the Bushnell Theater in the background of the last picture. The state capitol is with that lawn BTW. :)
Aha...funny thing is even though I lived in Hartford County for 14 years, I never knew where the Bushnell actually was (simply put, I never really went to Hartford much, even though my father worked there).  Only reason I mentioned the State Library was because that was my destination that day.  I do remember the Capitol being in the vicinity though!

The Palace Of Ned Lamont (soon) was directly across the street from you on Capitol Avenue. I went by that and the Bushnell Theater several times on CT Transit's #69 bus.

kphoger

Quote from: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 09:41:04 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on November 10, 2018, 08:50:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 08:41:13 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on November 10, 2018, 08:34:58 PM
Does that mean you can't sit in the intersection when waiting to make a permissive left? That would be very frustrating.

In states with that dumb "restricted" yellow law, basically yeah. There's a reason I don't live in a state like Oregon! Such a simple maneuver that should not be illegal.

Damn, that could make a big difference at a busy intersection for throughput.

Do you know which other states have this rule? My quick forum/google searching isn't turning up anything.

This is a PDF prepared by Mats Järlström, an Oregonian whose wife was handed a (IMO) very unjust ticket at a traffic light camera. It lists eight states with restrictive laws:

http://www.jarlstrom.com/PDF/Exhibit_1_FINAL_An_investigation_of_the_ITE_formula_and_its_use_R14.pdf

The states are Iowa, Michigan, Mississippi, Nebraska, New Jersey, Oregon, Virginia, and Wisconsin. In these states, the only difference is that their law specifically requires drivers to stop on yellow if possible. Other states don't require drivers do anything on yellow other than acknowledge its existence.

My wife and I were pulled over by a cop in Princeton, MN.  The officer advised us that it was because she had turned left on a yellow light.  I would look up the Minnesota statute online, but their site seems to be down right now.
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bzakharin

I thought yellow was always equivalent to red everywhere, in other words, go only if you can't stop. I never make it a habit to enter an intersection when making a left turn on a green ball at a doghouse unless I see a gap in oncoming traffic. To me a sign like that would just be stating the obvious, and of course I still would make the turn on yellow if I ended up in the intersection when the light turned (what's the alternative?)

jakeroot

Quote from: kphoger on November 12, 2018, 01:18:48 PM
My wife and I were pulled over by a cop in Princeton, MN.  The officer advised us that it was because she had turned left on a yellow light.  I would look up the Minnesota statute online, but their site seems to be down right now.

Sounds like you guys were cheated. MN law, according to that PDF, indicates that yellow = warning of red light, not that you must stop.

Quote from: bzakharin on November 12, 2018, 01:38:31 PM
I thought yellow was always equivalent to red everywhere, in other words, go only if you can't stop. I never make it a habit to enter an intersection when making a left turn on a green ball at a doghouse unless I see a gap in oncoming traffic. To me a sign like that would just be stating the obvious, and of course I still would make the turn on yellow if I ended up in the intersection when the light turned (what's the alternative?)

No no no, yellow in most states = warning of red light, not that you must stop. Drivers Ed often teaches drivers to stop on yellow if possible, but (in most states) you are under no legal obligation to do so. Your only legal obligation is that you don't exceed the speed limit to make the yellow light.

Are you ever honked at for not pulling forward? There's always a gap at the end when the light turns yellow (and then red). In 42 states and DC (and throughout Canada), this is a legal (and practiced) maneuver.

roadman65

https://goo.gl/maps/wqDhXacsQYN2
The interstate shields the way they are arranged specifically the I-95 shield.  Of course these will become history when NYCDOT makes I-895 (now officially NY 895) an arterial.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

jakeroot

Quote from: kphoger on November 12, 2018, 02:33:40 PM
In essence, I think Minnesota's statutes leave a yellow light in no man's land:  it means the laws governing a green light have expired, but also that the laws governing a red light haven't come into force yet.

Ahh yes, thanks for pulling this up. But, I don't agree with your assessment.

The law in most (all?) states with the permissive yellow law has this line: "related green movement is being terminated". Note the word "being", not "has been". In effect, the yellow is indicating the green phase is being terminated, not that the green phase has been terminated and now means something else.

ipeters61

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
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Occidental Tourist

Quote from: kphoger on November 12, 2018, 02:33:40 PM

In essence, I think Minnesota's statutes leave a yellow light in no man's land:  it means the laws governing a green light have expired, but also that the laws governing a red light haven't come into force yet.
No, if you know how to read laws, this means that the prior conditions apply until a red light is displayed.  This is further reinforced by the language of sub ii:

Quote
(ii) Pedestrians facing a circular yellow signal, unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal as provided in subdivision 6, are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway.

In sub ii, the law makes it clear that there's an additional and exceptional condition that applies to yellows for pedestrians: no entering the intersection.  Under guidelines of statutory interpretation, this additional application of language has two effects.  One, it shouldn't be treated as surplussage, i.e., surplussage is the idea that legislature simply added the language to sub ii even though it supposedly restates something that the prior text of the law already required.  If the legislature in sub i intended that a yellow meant the movement was immediately terminated for all, then it wouldn't have added language specifying that the movement could not be begun for pedestrians.

The second canon of statutory construction is that the inclusion of disparate language in one part of a statute but not other parts should be interpreted to mean that the legislature intended a contrary obligation from the intent of the statute in the part where the disparate language was included.  This means that a negative inference should be drawn from the exclusion of language from one statutory provision that is included in other provisions of the same statute.

So where the legislature says in one part of the statute, "this class of persons may not start into an intersection on yellow,"  but omits that language as to drivers, the inference is that the omission was intentional and that the legislature intended a contrary obligation for drivers.

bzakharin

Quote from: jakeroot on November 12, 2018, 02:07:43 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 12, 2018, 01:18:48 PM
My wife and I were pulled over by a cop in Princeton, MN.  The officer advised us that it was because she had turned left on a yellow light.  I would look up the Minnesota statute online, but their site seems to be down right now.

Sounds like you guys were cheated. MN law, according to that PDF, indicates that yellow = warning of red light, not that you must stop.

Quote from: bzakharin on November 12, 2018, 01:38:31 PM
I thought yellow was always equivalent to red everywhere, in other words, go only if you can't stop. I never make it a habit to enter an intersection when making a left turn on a green ball at a doghouse unless I see a gap in oncoming traffic. To me a sign like that would just be stating the obvious, and of course I still would make the turn on yellow if I ended up in the intersection when the light turned (what's the alternative?)

No no no, yellow in most states = warning of red light, not that you must stop. Drivers Ed often teaches drivers to stop on yellow if possible, but (in most states) you are under no legal obligation to do so. Your only legal obligation is that you don't exceed the speed limit to make the yellow light.

Are you ever honked at for not pulling forward? There's always a gap at the end when the light turns yellow (and then red). In 42 states and DC (and throughout Canada), this is a legal (and practiced) maneuver.
No, I am not ever honked at as far as I know. And at least NJ's law seems to make it clear that my belief about yellow is at least correct here (NJSA 39:4-105):
Quote
Amber, or yellow, when shown alone following green means traffic to stop before entering the intersection or nearest crosswalk, unless when the amber appears the vehicle or street car is so close to the intersection that with suitable brakes it cannot be stopped in safety

jakeroot

Quote from: bzakharin on November 13, 2018, 05:53:56 PM
No, I am not ever honked at as far as I know. And at least NJ's law seems to make it clear that my belief about yellow is at least correct here (NJSA 39:4-105):

But that law is also quite clear that you cannot enter on yellow or red unless you physically cannot help it. If you're already in the intersection, having entered on green, you should be in the clear.


hotdogPi

Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Mapmikey

Virginia gets in on this too...

https://goo.gl/maps/Vv8TWyhmoRs

This is the 2nd generation of this 4-banner posting...

bzakharin

Quote from: jakeroot on November 13, 2018, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on November 13, 2018, 05:53:56 PM
No, I am not ever honked at as far as I know. And at least NJ's law seems to make it clear that my belief about yellow is at least correct here (NJSA 39:4-105):

But that law is also quite clear that you cannot enter on yellow or red unless you physically cannot help it. If you're already in the intersection, having entered on green, you should be in the clear.
Well, yeah, I wouldn't expect to b required to stay in the intersection and prevent the traffic that has green to move. The question is, can I enter the intersection on green ball without a reasonable expectation of being able to finish my turn before yellow.



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