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US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma

Started by I-39, June 10, 2017, 06:46:20 PM

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rte66man

#125
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra


Plutonic Panda

I don't think there is a neighborhood on the proposed route and this this growth is organic growth. There is more to cities than just building for the city itself directly. Cities have to address regional and national needs-- that is what this road does while benefiting the city at the same time.


You have no way of knowing that! This freeway will open up new opportunities that didn't exist before. There is no non-tolled freeway in Muskogee. This would allow for new businesses to consider locations along the proposed freeway AND allowing more opportunities for downtown to "right-size" the streets possibly adding bike lanes or other improvements if a reduction in lanes are warranted.

What is also important to remember is this freeway in no way shape or form will be negative for the city. It will better the US-69 corridor as a whole which will be a positive. Why are you arguing against this? You would rather see no change, trucks and through traffic continuing to go straight through downtown causing unnecessary congestion and pollution?

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: rte66man on August 29, 2019, 09:37:00 AM

Bobby was spot on. Why should ODOT spend its scanty resources on a road wit that much opposition when there are other worthy project that could be advanced.
Because this isn't just about Muskogee, it is about the US-69 corridor which is a heavily used road and Oklahoma would be wise to get on the ball or risk loosing out to Arkansas if and when I-49 and I-69 are fully built. If Muskogee is causing that much of an issue then fuck them. Move the corridor out of the town completely. I am sure there is another town that would gladly take it. Decommission the road through the town and turn over maintenance to the county or tear it out. If they want to be assholes then treat them like it.  :spin:

sparker

^^^^^^^^^^^
It's not Muskogee at large that would "dry up and blow away" if a US 69 bypass were built -- just the road-related businesses along the current arterial stretch in the west part of town.  According to the maps and diagrams I've seen about the likely alignment of such a bypass, it appears to be deliberately configured to take as few developed properties as possible -- so the notion of someone living "near" that alignment (as mentioned in one of the cited articles) actually being required to move is a bit misleading -- now if they choose to move because of increased noise, etc. -- then that's a separate story -- a freeway generally affecting a specific area rather than prompting an application of eminent domain.  It's also interesting to note that Muskogee officials' objection to the project is its extended developmental timeframe -- apparently their preference is that if it is to be constructed, the sooner the better so the city can plan and deploy any physical adjustments, getting those out of the way so some semblance of normality would be restored.  It's more the citizenry that objects to the bypass rather than the city itself, which appears at least resigned to the fact that it will eventually happen.  Also, the fact that the governor vetoed a bill that would have given cities effective veto power over state highway projects -- despite the backing from her own party -- indicates that ODOT may be down but not out in regards to US 69.  But it seems as if it's more than a few folks living along the route that don't want any alteration from the status quo, not the public entities such as cities and counties.  My guess is that while the Muskogee bypass is dormant for now, it eventually will be revived, particularly if other freeway segments start cropping up along the 69 corridor. 

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: sparker on August 29, 2019, 05:28:10 PMMy guess is that while the Muskogee bypass is dormant for now, it eventually will be revived, particularly if other freeway segments start cropping up along the 69 corridor.
I suspect this is the case. OkDOT has shelved it for now. In this area they should focus on the US-75/I-44 interchange before the Muskogee Bypass.

Bobby5280

I think a completed I-57 from Little Rock to Sikeston would pull a lot of traffic in Texas bound for the Northeast US completely off the US-69 corridor. The traffic shift might be enough to that a lot of the road side businesses in Atoka and Stringtown would be seeing fewer vehicles and fewer customers. Same goes for the tin horn speed trap operations. I-57 would be a thru route from Dallas to Chicago with Little Rock being the only big city along the path. It bypasses St Louis, which a good number of drivers would like considering the current level of crime in the St Louis metro.

I think if I-57 gets completed well ahead of a possible US-69 conversion the folks in Atoka and Stringtown won't ever have to worry about a US-69 freeway bypassing their towns ever again. But they won't get to base much, if any, of their local business on the highway economy either. Various shops next to the highway will close.

Revive 755

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 29, 2019, 09:14:37 PM
I think a completed I-57 from Little Rock to Sikeston would pull a lot of traffic in Texas bound for the Northeast US completely off the US-69 corridor. The traffic shift might be enough to that a lot of the road side businesses in Atoka and Stringtown would be seeing fewer vehicles and fewer customers. Same goes for the tin horn speed trap operations. I-57 would be a thru route from Dallas to Chicago with Little Rock being the only big city along the path. It bypasses St Louis, which a good number of drivers would like considering the current level of crime in the St Louis metro.

I don't recall St. Louis having that many expressway shootings compared to Chicagoland - or have I just not been hearing about them?

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 29, 2019, 09:14:37 PM
I think if I-57 gets completed well ahead of a possible US-69 conversion the folks in Atoka and Stringtown won't ever have to worry about a US-69 freeway bypassing their towns ever again. But they won't get to base much, if any, of their local business on the highway economy either. Various shops next to the highway will close.

I am not so sure.  Using Google (albeit with today's facilities), from just north of the Circle Interchange on I-90/I-94 to I-35E just south of I-30 in Dallas I get 968 miles/13 hours 59 minutes via I-57, I-55, I-40 and I-30.  Going via US 60 to Poplar Bluff, then down is 958 miles/14 hours 7 minutes.  The I-55 - I-44 - US 69 - US 75 route comes in at 925 miles/14 hours 17 minutes.  Unless Arkansas builds I-57 on a very straight route (doubtful based on highway planning these days), there's not going to be much additional savings distance wise.

Now if the origin was on I-290 just south of the I-90 cloverleaf in Schaumburg, the I-44/US 69/US 75 option begins having an advantage time-wise per Google.

Then there's still going to be users of the US 69 corridor coming from/going to Kansas City and beyond. 

Scott5114

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 29, 2019, 06:33:48 PM
Quote from: sparker on August 29, 2019, 05:28:10 PMMy guess is that while the Muskogee bypass is dormant for now, it eventually will be revived, particularly if other freeway segments start cropping up along the 69 corridor.
I suspect this is the case. OkDOT has shelved it for now. In this area they should focus on the US-75/I-44 interchange before the Muskogee Bypass.

Tulsa is in ODOT Division 8, Muskogee is Division 1.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

dfwmapper

Quote from: Revive 755 on August 29, 2019, 11:17:29 PM
I am not so sure.  Using Google (albeit with today's facilities), from just north of the Circle Interchange on I-90/I-94 to I-35E just south of I-30 in Dallas I get 968 miles/13 hours 59 minutes via I-57, I-55, I-40 and I-30.  Going via US 60 to Poplar Bluff, then down is 958 miles/14 hours 7 minutes.  The I-55 - I-44 - US 69 - US 75 route comes in at 925 miles/14 hours 17 minutes.  Unless Arkansas builds I-57 on a very straight route (doubtful based on highway planning these days), there's not going to be much additional savings distance wise.

Now if the origin was on I-290 just south of the I-90 cloverleaf in Schaumburg, the I-44/US 69/US 75 option begins having an advantage time-wise per Google.

Then there's still going to be users of the US 69 corridor coming from/going to Kansas City and beyond.
US 67 north of Walnut Ridge is much worse than US 69 in Oklahoma. South of Pocahontas it's mostly a 60mph Arkansas expressway, and north it's a 55mph 2 lane road, and Pocahontas and Corning are annoying to get through. Upgrading along the same route to a 70/75mph interstate would be a huge improvement, and skipping Pocahontas entirely and paralleling the railroad would be even better. If and when the upgrade is complete, all Dallas-Chicago traffic is making the switch, and Dallas-Milwaukee you flip a coin whether it's better to reach I-39 via the all-Interstate Little Rock/I-57/I-55/I-255/I-55 and live with the backtrack on I-55 or go more direct via US 69/I-44/I-270/I-55 and live with Oklahoma.

kphoger

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 28, 2019, 04:38:44 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2019, 01:43:57 PM

Quote from: captkirk_4 on August 28, 2019, 09:01:56 AM
for even going 1 mile over to raise revenue.

Cite your source?

A LEO can technically pull you over for that, no?

Yes they can.  I wasn't doubting that.  What I'm doubting is his assertion that people are actually being pulled over for 1 over the limit.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: kphoger on August 30, 2019, 02:55:47 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 28, 2019, 04:38:44 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2019, 01:43:57 PM

Quote from: captkirk_4 on August 28, 2019, 09:01:56 AM
for even going 1 mile over to raise revenue.

Cite your source?

A LEO can technically pull you over for that, no?

Yes they can.  I wasn't doubting that.  What I'm doubting is his assertion that people are actually being pulled over for 1 over the limit.
That would be insane. I was pulled over for doing 7MPH over the limit once in Arcadia and I politely asked the cop if pulling people over for this small of a speed variance is the norm and he replied yes but typically they will issue only warnings. Usually they pull people over to see if they are DUI.

kphoger

I was once on the turnpike west of Tulsa, and a turnpike highway patrol officer was going exactly the speed limit in the left lane.  I crept up alongside him in the right lane at 1 mph over the limit.  He revved his engine a few times, looked at me, and pointed to his radar device.  I slowed down.  Then he jumped over two lanes to take the next exit.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: kphoger on August 30, 2019, 03:30:25 PM
I was once on the turnpike west of Tulsa, and a turnpike highway patrol officer was going exactly the speed limit in the left lane.  I crept up alongside him in the right lane at 1 mph over the limit.  He revved his engine a few times, looked at me, and pointed to his radar device.  I slowed down.  Then he jumped over two lanes to take the next exit.
For some reason I have bad luck with tickets and troopers in NE part of OK.

Revive 755

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 28, 2019, 04:38:44 PM
At any rate, I know many I've talked to are opposed to this, but I would like to see a ban on muni police patrolling interstates or highways(controlled access highways) as well as Sheriff's on incorporated areas. This would prevent over policing and shift resources to areas needed more than just cracking down on speeding.

Could be worse, such as Iowa where the locals put speed cameras on the interstates, with Le Claire possibly putting one on I-80 near the Illinois border (watch it be at the bottom of the descent into the Mississippi River valley). 

Though for Illinois, is there already some prohibition of this type?  For the past several years the only village/city police cars I have seen on the interstates have been Troy on I-55/I-70 (usually south of IL 162).

Bobby5280

Quote from: Revive 755I don't recall St. Louis having that many expressway shootings compared to Chicagoland - or have I just not been hearing about them?

I don't know about highway shootings, but overall St Louis has been the most dangerous large US city for the past few years on a per capita basis. In the murders per 100,000 population figure St Louis has a ratio of around 60 per 100,000, which is freaking terrible. Chicago is rough, but has around half that rate. New York City has a murder rate of about 3 per 100,000 (in 2018 NYC had fewer than 300 murders in the 5 boroughs, which have 8.5 million people).

Anyway St Louis is a major junction point in the highway system. Lots of people stop there to eat, sleep, fuel-up, etc. But it's risky doing so.

Quote from: Revive 755I am not so sure.  Using Google (albeit with today's facilities), from just north of the Circle Interchange on I-90/I-94 to I-35E just south of I-30 in Dallas I get 968 miles/13 hours 59 minutes via I-57, I-55, I-40 and I-30.  Going via US 60 to Poplar Bluff, then down is 958 miles/14 hours 7 minutes.  The I-55 - I-44 - US 69 - US 75 route comes in at 925 miles/14 hours 17 minutes.  Unless Arkansas builds I-57 on a very straight route (doubtful based on highway planning these days), there's not going to be much additional savings distance wise.

Even if there is no substantial mileage savings plenty of drivers, be they commercial drivers or otherwise, will stick to the Interstates even if they go substantially out of their way. If the usual route has lots of speed zones and speed traps, which US-69 in Southern OK absolutely does, they will really really want to use an alternate all-Interstate route.

Quote from: Revive 755Then there's still going to be users of the US 69 corridor coming from/going to Kansas City and beyond.

For Kansas City a lot of drivers will just stay on I-35 and avoid the stop lights and speed traps of US-69 completely.

rte66man

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 30, 2019, 04:02:53 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 30, 2019, 03:30:25 PM
I was once on the turnpike west of Tulsa, and a turnpike highway patrol officer was going exactly the speed limit in the left lane.  I crept up alongside him in the right lane at 1 mph over the limit.  He revved his engine a few times, looked at me, and pointed to his radar device.  I slowed down.  Then he jumped over two lanes to take the next exit.
For some reason I have bad luck with tickets and troopers in NE part of OK.

You made "The List" (thanks to Chris Jericho)  :bigass:
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

captkirk_4

Quote from: kphoger on August 28, 2019, 01:43:57 PM
Quote from: captkirk_4 on August 28, 2019, 09:01:56 AM
for even going 1 mile over to raise revenue.

Cite your source?

Scuttlebut from a guy I work with from Paducah who knows the area and warned me before driving that route. I know it is very bad because I've driven through there 5 times and each trip I see a minimum of at least 3 county patrols with someone stopped. Last time I slowed to 67 and was slowly passed by a car with Texas plates, couldn't have been going much over 73-75 and five minutes later he was pulled over.

You forget that it's not about safety but revenue, they are highwaymen running a revenue operation, they seem to work nonstop, as soon as one stop is over the lights go on immediately to tax the next one going through. Cairo is a desolate abandoned town with no economic base, I went into the town itself to the meeting of the rivers and there are signs reminding the few denizens left to keep their lawns under control due to "rodents and snakes." Looks like the overgrown ruins of Pripyat outside Chernobyl. Stringtown on 69 is the one I see warnings about, but the 3 times I drove through the active speed trap I saw was around Caney.

rte66man

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 25, 2019, 12:44:26 AM
OK-7 between Duncan and I-35 was improved a little bit. It has a Super-2 grade and wide enough ROW for 4-laning from US-81 to just West of Ratliff City.

When OK7 was plowed through Duncan just south of Bois d'arc in the early 70's, it temporarily ended just east of the Halliburton manufacturing facility with ramps and an embankment that indicated the intent was to make the extension east to Velma a freeway.  When it was finally extended, they came in and flattened the embankment to create a regular intersection with Oklahoma Hills Drive.


Quote
An extension from OK-7 up to US-81 in Marlow is in the works.

Always rumored but I've never seen any plans.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Bobby5280

I don't know the time line of when the project is supposed to start. The local TV station in Lawton ran a story about the extension a few months ago. It wasn't long ago that the Southern end of the Duncan bypass (a new "Y" extension to US-81 farther South of Duncan) opened.

rte66man

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 03, 2019, 08:50:18 PM
I don't know the time line of when the project is supposed to start. The local TV station in Lawton ran a story about the extension a few months ago. It wasn't long ago that the Southern end of the Duncan bypass (a new "Y" extension to US-81 farther South of Duncan) opened.

I posted some pics of it on another thread.  Nice that the extension is limited access but I got the feeling the roadbed was substandard.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Bobby5280

Yeah, it's almost like a low cost "place holder" configuration. If or when the Duncan Bypass is improved into an actual 4 lane freeway with a second set of lanes, bridges, etc ODOT will likely have to put down something significantly better. On the bright side they got what I feel is the most important step out of the way: securing the right of way for any potential future freeway.

Plutonic Panda

Not sure if it was posted here but the Calera US-69/75 upgrade has broken ground and should be in full swing or soon will be.

https://www.ok.gov/triton/modules/newsroom/newsroom_article.php?id=277&article_id=54459

-- US 175 --

While on a weekend trip this week, I noticed that (most of) the US 69 (and US 69-US 75) exits have been numbered since my last trip up that way.  Anyone know when it was done and if any reason was given at the time?

Scott5114

2009 MUTCD requires all exits be numbered, regardless of whether they are an Interstate or not.

ODOT occasionally pretends to believe in the MUTCD.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

-- US 175 --

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2020, 02:54:07 PM
2009 MUTCD requires all exits be numbered, regardless of whether they are an Interstate or not.

Wow, didn't know that.  That should make it interesting for TX, to see TxDOT's approach to numbering exits on highways like US 287 and US 175 that have mixed freeway and at-grade segments.

Does that extend to state highways that have exits also?



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