How do you define Upstate NY?

[02 Park Ave]

How about using electric utilities' service areas?  ConEdison, Orange & Rockland, and LILCO are downstate while Central Hudson and Niagara Mohawk are upstate.

[kalvado]

Do people in Poughkeepsie and Kingston really think they are downstate? Even Albany?

No.

Westchester and Rockland: Definitely yes.
Poughkeepsie and Kingston: Questionable. To me, they are downstate, and I would think being closer to the *real* upstate would give them a more balanced perspective, but who knows? 
Albany: Definitely no.

If you define upstate as anything that isn't downstate, then Albany is upstate. However, my impression is that downstate is somewhere down there, upstate is somewhere in up there, and Albany is in between.

[empirestate]

I'm referring to the New Croton Reservoir, adjacent to Harriman State Park.

But the two are not adjacent; again, we're talking opposite sides of the river here. However, I could see how you might draw a boundary connecting the two areas, although the exact location of a line across the river itself is a litte unclear.

I also consider utility sources to be significant; it means that there's (generally) fewer people who live there and less likely to be inconvenienced. For example, the Quabbin Reservoir supplies most of Boston's water; would you consider that area to be part of the Boston metro area?

Probably not on its own, as I'd look for something more directly applicable to the everyday lives of people. However, the presence of such a link could be one indicator that there are other ties between the two areas, so even if it's not by itself a defining factor, it may be one piece of the evidence puzzle.

The Metro-North connection you refer to could also be chalked up to a lack of rail transit in the area (no E-W lines) but also intent of Metro-North (get passengers from the suburbs to the city). When you put it that way, there is a definite connection to NYC. But I think the fact that there's few passengers north of either point means more car ownership and thus characteristics similar to rural areas (say, the Southern Tier).

There's a difference, for sure, but again I'd qualify that as a suburban/exurban divide. If you're in a suburb or an exurb, then by definition you're somewhere in reference to an "urb"–i.e., the city. So if you're in such an area, you're in some way defined by having that urban connection, even if it's in the context of being a remote connection. The fact that a commuter rail system exists in an area, I think, unequivocally places that area into a sphere of connectivity to the urban center that necessitates it.

Perhaps housing prices might be another possible dividing line; whether prices in Peekskill are significantly lower than Yonkers or White Plains might signify a looser connection to NYC.

They might, indeed, but as a recent homeowner and property tax payer in that very area, I can tell you for sure that those things bear a stronger resemblance to the NYC side of things than the Upstate side. Even now, living here in southern Dutchess, the market is much more a big-city affair than a small-town one. You really don't start to see an Upstate-style housing market until you get to the northerly side of the Catskills, and west of the Hudson (to the east, you have to go still farther north, because of the Berkshire influence).

HA! Long Island would have not counted as upstate because it's physically attached to NYC (through Brooklyn/Queens).

Then that, of course, would also exclude Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, St. Lawrence...all of the North American mainland, really.

But there was always this sense in Rockland that the easternmost counties were somehow different from the rest of "Upstate"  NY - for some reason, I never considered Westchester County as fitting in, somehow. Maybe because they are geographically south of the NJ northern border of NY, or somehow... some how distinctly ($$$?) closer to CT culturally? I couldn't imagine a Rockland County person arguing that White Plains isn't part of that "Upstate"  designation.

Of course, I don't think anyone seriously considers Nassau or Suffolk to be Upstate, but that's really the whole reason for the question. Once you articulate what you thought the definition was, you often find yourself stuck in just such a logical trap, and it got me wondering if there wasn't really an objective way to determine the answer, beyond just where you always assumed the line was on the map.

Yes, there is a noticeable resemblance between the eastern counties and the states they border–CT, MA, VT–and you'll find that's also true along the Southern Tier with respect to PA, and yes, in Rockland County with respect to NJ. (And as for Long Island, the north shore most closely resembles New England, while the south feels like the Mid-Atlantic.)

When it comes down to it, I believe that Upstate New York is always simply North of where that New Yorker is from (And sometimes inclusive of where that New Yorker lives, depending on the person),  until you get somewhere around the Adirondacks. They know they're in Upstate NY and there's not much NY left to go!

And of course, as someone from Rochester, I "know" that Upstate is actually much larger than that, including most of the state–but certainly not those areas down near NYC. :-)

Do people in Poughkeepsie and Kingston really think they are downstate? Even Albany?

Not for the most part; a few more in Poughkeepsie, perhaps, but definitely not Albany. But of course, that's the whole point of asking–is there a way to determine it objectively, rather than by where people "think" they are?

How about using electric utilities' service areas?  ConEdison, Orange & Rockland, and LILCO are downstate while Central Hudson and Niagara Mohawk are upstate.

Not a bad idea, although CenHud has some service in Downstate territory as well. In that same region (where I live), we also can choose between TV and radio stations from New York or from Albany. Our NWS forecast office is that of Albany, and in one recent storm warning issued by the New York office, the southern corner of Dutchess was noticably and humorously clipped out of harm's way, because it happens to lie outside their forecast area. (Ended up getting a heck of a gust front come through, anyway!)

The southern half of Dutchess County, to be sure, is the one area I'd consider to be the most debatable. It certainly is a mixture of Upstate and Downstate culturally, and while I still tend to place anything with rail service firmly in the Downstate category, I would certainly not argue with placing the rest of the county outside of it.

[steviep24]

NYSDOT regions 8, 10 and 11 are downstate, everything else is upstate in my opinion. (One way of looking at it.)

[Roadgeekteen]

NYSDOT regions 8, 10 and 11 are downstate, everything else is upstate in my opinion. (One way of looking at it.)

Region 8 stretches a bit too far north.

[vdeane]

The economic development map doesn't have the county jogs in Regions 8 and 9 that make the DOT map a bit odd for upstate/downstate.  Mid-Hudson, NYC, and Long Island are downstate (as it happens, those are the three regions that are still "on pause").
https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/governor.ny.gov/files/atoms/files/RegionalCouncilMap.pdf

[Rothman]

NYSDOT regions 8, 10 and 11 are downstate, everything else is upstate in my opinion. (One way of looking at it.)

Region 8 stretches a bit too far north.

Eh.  NYSDOT still considers it a downstate region.

[empirestate]

NYSDOT regions 8, 10 and 11 are downstate, everything else is upstate in my opinion. (One way of looking at it.)

Region 8 stretches a bit too far north.

Eh.  NYSDOT still considers it a downstate region.

Well, different DOT region practices could certainly qualify for the question, if they have a demonstrable effect. Is there something specific that NYSDOT does in its "downstate" regions that a casual observer could point to and say, "See? Because of that, we're definitely not Upstate; rather, we're in the region defined by the influence of New York City"?

Personally, I agree that Columbia County and even much of Dutchess (in Region 8) don't fit the Downstate bill, whereas Sullivan (not in Region 8) is at least a closer match. On the other hand, pretty much anything on the tidewater Hudson (so, up to Troy and the Mohawk confluence) has a least a little inkling of the big city in its blood. That's hard to quantify, though; it's sort of a combination of cultural cues and the built environment–certain areas just "look" and "feel" more Upstate than others. Finding a way to measure that is what I'm after.

[webny99]

Since the state rivalries thread, I got to thinking, and I think I've come up with a definition of Upstate NY that actually is tied to a definable criteria:

Start at the Tri-States Monument in Port Jervis, and head more or less due northeast until you hit the CT/MA/NY Tri-Point near Boston Corner. Pretty straightforward, and gives you a nice triangle of "downstate" north of NYC that passes just south of Kingston and Ellenville.

Here's where the definable criteria comes in:

Downstate NY is defined by New Jersey being to the west and Connecticut being to the east; such is very much a part of the NYC region's "Tri-State" identity.

So if you're from downstate, Pennsylvania is simply "west of Jersey", and Massachusetts is simply "north of Connecticut".
Whereas if you're from upstate, Jersey is not relevant in identifying the location of Pennsylvania, and Connecticut is not relevant in identifying the location of Massachusetts.

Thus, downstate is the area that does not share a border with PA or MA (instead relating all other states to their directionality from Jersey or Connecticut), and upstate is the area that does share a border with PA and MA, thus distinguishing it from downstate, which does not.

I'm not sure if this is a true consensus answer, but I think I'm definitely onto something here, at least culturally/socially and in terms of one's perspective of the surrounding states. Thoughts?

[empirestate]

I'm not sure if this is a true consensus answer, but I think I'm definitely onto something here, at least culturally/socially and in terms of one's perspective of the surrounding states. Thoughts?

That's a very interesting way to look at it. While defining Upstate and Downstate purely according to borders is too abstract for the spirit of this thread, you're right that it does speak to the identity of the tri-state region as being indicative of the NYC sphere of influence, which is tangible culturally.

I can't help but notice, also, that your boundary line almost perfectly encompasses the reach of Metro North service (my principal definition), while also bisecting Orange and Dutchess Counties in such a way that the more "upstate" parts of them fall on the appropriate side of the line. (For example, I've observed the "downstateness" of Dutchess County to extend well up the NY 22 corridor, certainly to Amenia if not Millerton.) So as a line on a map, it's perhaps more accurate than more commonly used ones like I-84.

Also interesting, especially as a Mid-Hudson Valley resident, is that this line separates Poughkeepsie and Newburgh from Kingston and Hudson, which is apt but also not apt, as the Mid-Hudson region is pretty cohesive among itself while still also having distinct "upstate" and "downstate" characteristics. And yes, it very accurately places New Paltz right in the midst of a split personality crisis, which is also very apt to real life.

[webny99]

That's a very interesting way to look at it. While defining Upstate and Downstate purely according to borders is too abstract for the spirit of this thread, you're right that it does speak to the identity of the tri-state region as being indicative of the NYC sphere of influence, which is tangible culturally.

Too abstract? I would think it's not abstract enough, given that there's not many things that are more concrete than a hard line.   

I can't help but notice, also, that your boundary line almost perfectly encompasses the reach of Metro North service (my principal definition), while also bisecting Orange and Dutchess Counties in such a way that the more "upstate" parts of them fall on the appropriate side of the line. (For example, I've observed the "downstateness" of Dutchess County to extend well up the NY 22 corridor, certainly to Amenia if not Millerton.) So as a line on a map, it's perhaps more accurate than more commonly used ones like I-84.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an angled boundary. The points you describe are part of the reason why: it makes more sense when looking at the urbanized areas, and "downstate" certainly does seem to extend further north on the east side of the Hudson.

When you look at the triangle formed by the 42nd parallel, the Delaware River, and my proposed boundary - which would include Sullivan County and much of Ulster County - I think most of it really does fit better with upstate than it does downstate. This would put places such as Ellenville, Liberty, and Woodstock, in addition to much of the Catskills, squarely on the upstate side of the line, which I think is entirely appropriate. And the angled line makes even more sense when looked at in conjunction with the New Jersey and Connecticut lines - as contrasted with with the straighter lines like the 42nd parallel or I-84, which tend to skew a bit too heavily north/westward relative to NYC.

And I really don't think downstate should share a border with Pennsylvania - that's about as "upstate" a thing as you can get. So assigning the aforementioned triangle to upstate helps even things off a bit, while also preserving the Pennsylvania state line as an upstate specialty.

[empirestate]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an angled boundary. The points you describe are part of the reason why: it makes more sense when looking at the urbanized areas, and "downstate" certainly does seem to extend further north on the east side of the Hudson.

Part of that may be due to the trend of the coastline and of the Northeast Corridor in general, but a much larger part is probably that this is where the Shawangunk Ridge intercedes. Farther south, the Hudson Highlands also form a natural cultural barrier–one that was pushed through eventually, but not all that long ago in the scheme of things. To this day, passing through the Breakneck Tunnel is my cue to switch the radio between WNYC and WAMC.

When you look at the triangle formed by the 42nd parallel, the Delaware River, and my proposed boundary - which would include Sullivan County and much of Ulster County - I think most of it really does fit better with upstate than it does downstate. This would put places such as Ellenville, Liberty, and Woodstock, in addition to much of the Catskills, squarely on the upstate side of the line, which I think is entirely appropriate.

And yet...somehow those areas still inhabit some semblance of a "downstate" vibe, too. When I follow route 17, it's frankly not until I hit Binghamton that the last vestige of downstateness really seems to drop away.

And I really don't think downstate should share a border with Pennsylvania - that's about as "upstate" a thing as you can get. So assigning the aforementioned triangle to upstate helps even things off a bit, while also preserving the Pennsylvania state line as an upstate specialty.

I don't disagree here, but I will note that the areas of PA that are adjacent to New Jersey–the Poconos, in essence–are really similar to it in a way that no other part of PA is. And while that part of north Jersey doesn't feel like downstate NY, it does feel like metro NYC–and thus, by definition, not Upstate.

(But that part of PA isn't the part that borders NY, so we're safe.)

[on_wisconsin]

Anywhere north the Tappen Zee bridge area.

[empirestate]

Anywhere north the Tappen Zee bridge area.

Okay, why there? What's different about ordinary life for residents of, say, Ardsley versus Ossining?

[webny99]

To this day, passing through the Breakneck Tunnel is my cue to switch the radio between WNYC and WAMC.

Interesting. I was not aware of the tunnel there.

And yet...somehow those areas still inhabit some semblance of a "downstate" vibe, too. When I follow route 17, it's frankly not until I hit Binghamton that the last vestige of downstateness really seems to drop away.

Yeah, the area between Hancock and Middletown is kind of a "transition" zone - more upstate than down in my opinion, but not quite the same as further north.

Maybe we can think of the boundary I proposed (corner of NJ to corner of CT) as the start of the transition zone, and then other end of the transition zone would run from Hale Eddy to the NY/MA/VT tripoint? That would put most of the Catskills and some of Albany's southern suburbs in the said transition zone, which seems reasonable, especially given the Hudson Valley's historical and cultural ties to NYC.

... the areas of PA that are adjacent to New Jersey–the Poconos, in essence–are really similar to it in a way that no other part of PA is. And while that part of north Jersey doesn't feel like downstate NY, it does feel like metro NYC–and thus, by definition, not Upstate.

(But that part of PA isn't the part that borders NY, so we're safe.)

Interesting. I suppose you could also call that part of PA a "transition" zone into NYC's sphere of influence, but it certainly is a different dynamic since it's New Jersey, not New York, that lies between there and NYC. It's sort of like the original NYC phenomenon, but in reverse: from the Poconos, downstate NY lies beyond NJ, so if you're crossing directly into NY, it must be upstate. 

[empirestate]

To this day, passing through the Breakneck Tunnel is my cue to switch the radio between WNYC and WAMC.

Interesting. I was not aware of the tunnel there.

It is, in fact, the only perterranean road tunnel in all of New York.


Yeah, the area between Hancock and Middletown is kind of a "transition" zone - more upstate than down in my opinion, but not quite the same as further north.

Maybe we can think of the boundary I proposed (corner of NJ to corner of CT) as the start of the transition zone, and then other end of the transition zone would run from Hale Eddy to the NY/MA/VT tripoint? That would put most of the Catskills and some of Albany's southern suburbs in the said transition zone, which seems reasonable, especially given the Hudson Valley's historical and cultural ties to NYC.
[/quote]

The transition zone is real, and quite wide, and that's as reasonable as any a place to draw the line. The key element that keeps it Upstate, to me, is that its connectivity to New York City is occasional and transitory, not fixed into the daily fabric as it is in the commutable regions.

[webny99]

The transition zone is real, and quite wide, and that's as reasonable as any a place to draw the line. The key element that keeps it Upstate, to me, is that its connectivity to New York City is occasional and transitory, not fixed into the daily fabric as it is in the commutable regions.

I actually might go so far as to say the bolded phrase defines the transition zone, while once you get beyond that into solid upstate territory, the connectivity to NYC is even less than that - almost strictly road trip/vacation range.

[vdeane]

I've been starting to consider the Capital District to be downstate, or at least transition zone.  We're just a two hour train ride from NYC here (and the trains run regularly and reasonably on time, unlike the rest of the Empire corridor).  Culturally I feel like we have a lot more in common with the NYC area and the Hudson Valley than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse, much less the more rural parts of upstate.

[Roadgeekteen]

I've been starting to consider the Capital District to be downstate, or at least transition zone.  We're just a two hour train ride from NYC here (and the trains run regularly and reasonably on time, unlike the rest of the Empire corridor).  Culturally I feel like we have a lot more in common with the NYC area and the Hudson Valley than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse, much less the more rural parts of upstate.

Albany is in no way downstate by any stretch of the imagination. Albany is one of the first cities I think about when I think "upstate".

[empirestate]

I've been starting to consider the Capital District to be downstate, or at least transition zone.  We're just a two hour train ride from NYC here (and the trains run regularly and reasonably on time, unlike the rest of the Empire corridor).  Culturally I feel like we have a lot more in common with the NYC area and the Hudson Valley than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse, much less the more rural parts of upstate.

Yes, it's palpable. (Which of course is the whole point of the question.)

Albany is in no way downstate by any stretch of the imagination. Albany is one of the first cities I think about when I think "upstate".

No stretching of the imagination is necessary—one can observe it directly from life. Ultimately, no, Albany will not objectively fall into the "downstate" category*, but there is undeniably some common DNA. If nothing else, it goes back to the time when New York and Albany were essentially the only European settlements in this new province. That in itself sets them apart from those areas that were originally beyond the frontier.

(And don't forget that for many people, White Plains or even Yonkers are among the first "upstate" cities they think of—but I think we've long ruled those out categorically.)

*One purely semantic reason for this is that the capital, by design, is not in the metropolis. This very fact places it in opposition to New York City and thus, by definition, in some category other than that which is defined by its association with New York City.

[Rothman]

I've been starting to consider the Capital District to be downstate, or at least transition zone.  We're just a two hour train ride from NYC here (and the trains run regularly and reasonably on time, unlike the rest of the Empire corridor).  Culturally I feel like we have a lot more in common with the NYC area and the Hudson Valley than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse, much less the more rural parts of upstate.

Wha...?  Nah.  Hudson Valley and NYC are very different from the Capital District.  Albany shares more with Utica and Syracuse or Saratoga.

[webny99]

The Albany area certainly has a lot more East Coast influence than anything west of I-81. Part of that might come from being the capital and getting a lot of seasonal traffic from the more traditional "downstate" areas, but I also think it's at the fringe of a kind of transition zone out of the Bos-Wash corridor (as distinct from just NYC specifically) on both the north/south and east/west axes given the interstate connectivity to NYC and Boston.

There's definitely something distinct about the regions inland enough to feel separate from the true East Coast, but still within vacation/daytrip/extended commute range of the Bos-Wash corridor. You can also feel it with Harrisburg and Allentown, and to a lesser extent, Scranton. The drivers tend to be faster, there's more traffic, you see more out-of-state plates, and so on.

[vdeane]

I've been starting to consider the Capital District to be downstate, or at least transition zone.  We're just a two hour train ride from NYC here (and the trains run regularly and reasonably on time, unlike the rest of the Empire corridor).  Culturally I feel like we have a lot more in common with the NYC area and the Hudson Valley than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse, much less the more rural parts of upstate.

Wha...?  Nah.  Hudson Valley and NYC are very different from the Capital District.  Albany shares more with Utica and Syracuse or Saratoga.

Daytrips to NYC are easy and common from the Capital District.  They are unthinkable from Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse.

Last year, people would wear masks on the sidewalk in the Capital District.  Such was unthinkable in Buffalo, even when there was no room for social distancing.  People here took longer to take off their masks, too; in Rochester, about half the people in Wegmans were mask-less within a week of the mandate lifting.
Here, a vast majority were still wearing masks in Hannaford until Cuomo declared "mission accomplished" with fireworks and giving up his emergency powers.  Additionally, of the economic development regions that are not NYC/Long Island/Mid-Hudson, the Capital District was dead last in beginning to reopen.

Until recently, the Capital District was the only part of the state where any county was consistently blue outside of NYC/Westchester.

I know of upstate secessionists in most of the state (even in urban areas) - but not the Capital District, except perhaps the most rural areas.

Our decentralized land use patterns have more in common with the Hudson Valley and Long Island than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse.

Heck, the very fact that I constantly use the phrase "Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse" when talking about the metro areas of upstate - and have for all my life - excluding Albany, shows that there's a divide.  Heck, prior to college, I could count of one hand the number of times I had been significantly east of I-81 on one hand with fingers left over.  Heck, my parents and I didn't even know that I-890 even existed until I spotted it on an insert map of the Albany/Schenectady/Troy area on a AAA map of the state, despite being aware of all the other "90s" in the state.

Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse are Erie Canal towns that grew up after the American Revolution, with settlement in those areas made illegal by the British.  They were American since incorporation.  Albany was founded by the Dutch a century or two earlier (and continuously incorporated since that time, passing to the British and later the US), and despite being on the Canal, is not defined by it to the same extent due to being on the Hudson.

Let's face it, Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and the Capital District don't have nearly as much in common as one would think.

[kphoger]

Let's face it, Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and the Capital District don't have nearly as much in common as one would think.

But that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't both "upstate", right?

[kalvado]

Let's face it, Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and the Capital District don't have nearly as much in common as one would think.

But that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't both "upstate", right?

I would still argue that there is more downstatedness in Albany than in Syracuse