J. C. Penney files for Ch. 11 Bankruptcy

[ozarkman417]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/05/15/jc-penney-bankruptcy-store-closings-coronavirus-closures-chapter-11/3057838001/

I would consider this pandemic a final nail in the coffin for them.

[Max Rockatansky]

Probably the first of many to come.  Definitely "the straw that broke the camel's back" example with this one.

[vdeane]

But its fall from grace started around the time that Americans began embracing online retail for apparel purchases. When mall foot traffic began to drop off, J.C. Penney encountered turbulence.

I still want to know who is embracing online retail for apparel purchases.  I will never, ever buy something new that I haven't tried on in person.  Finding stuff that fits, is affordable, and is good quality is very, very hard (at least for women... men likely have fewer challenges on that front).  Besides, who wants to pay for shipping and wait for an item to arrive?  Granted, I don't do fast fashion.  I'm the type to buy clothes once and then expect them to last 5-10 years, and I insist on everything being machine wash and dryable ("hand wash only" is ridiculously common for women's clothing).

Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt?  First Payless and now JCPenney.  Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.

[Rothman]

I have been buying clothes online.  Got a bunch of dress shirts and just got a pair of khakis.

Everything fits and is fine.

[SectorZ]

Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.

This is so true. Around Boston it's just Walmart, Bob's Stores, Target, followed by a cadre of mall/lifestyle center crap meant for the beautiful people.

[Scott5114]

The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.

[sprjus4]

The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.

They still build the $150,000 houses, they just now sell for $300,000 - $500,000. To some extent, older homes are higher quality than a lot of the cheaper builds that are seen in cookie cutter construction in modern day.

[SEWIGuy]

The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.

The median home price in the United States is about $248,000.  That is the definition of middle class.

[SEWIGuy]

But its fall from grace started around the time that Americans began embracing online retail for apparel purchases. When mall foot traffic began to drop off, J.C. Penney encountered turbulence.

I still want to know who is embracing online retail for apparel purchases.  I will never, ever buy something new that I haven't tried on in person.  Finding stuff that fits, is affordable, and is good quality is very, very hard (at least for women... men likely have fewer challenges on that front).  Besides, who wants to pay for shipping and wait for an item to arrive?  Granted, I don't do fast fashion.  I'm the type to buy clothes once and then expect them to last 5-10 years, and I insist on everything being machine wash and dryable ("hand wash only" is ridiculously common for women's clothing).

Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt?  First Payless and now JCPenney.  Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.

The middle class are shopping online. 

[Scott5114]

The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.

The median home price in the United States is about $248,000.  That is the definition of middle class.

Where I'm at, middle class housing is in the $120,000—$150,000 range for a three-bedroom. The $250,000 houses are basically small McMansions.

The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.

They still build the $150,000 houses, they just now sell for $300,000 - $500,000. To some extent, older homes are higher quality than a lot of the cheaper builds that are seen in cookie cutter construction in modern day.

Not disputing that at all. I have a house that was built in 1976. Not too long after we bought it, we needed to replace the p-trap under one of the toilets. It took the plumbers the better part of a day to punch through the slab because it was obnoxiously thick.

We started looking for a house in January 2017 and didn't close on this one until May, because there were far, far more people looking for houses in our price range than there were houses to buy. We literally had one house go under contract from another buyer while we were touring it. But the developers keep on blithely building $300,000 houses. I guess someone's buying them, but if the free market was as good as everyone says it is, someone should be swooping in to meet the demand. I haven't seen it happen.

[GaryV]

Penney's ruined themselves years ago when they tried for a makeover targeted to younger people.  It failed miserably.  It only succeeded in alienating its existing clientele and didn't attract new clients like they wanted.  When they tried to reverse course several years later, it was too late.  I'm surprised they've been able to hang on as long as they did, considering Montgomery Wards exited at about that same time.  Also, they downplayed their catalog division - does it even still exist now?  Kind of ironic, seeing as it could have been an online life support for them in these times.

[SEWIGuy]

The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.

The median home price in the United States is about $248,000.  That is the definition of middle class.

Where I'm at, middle class housing is in the $120,000—$150,000 range for a three-bedroom. The $250,000 houses are basically small McMansions.

The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.

They still build the $150,000 houses, they just now sell for $300,000 - $500,000. To some extent, older homes are higher quality than a lot of the cheaper builds that are seen in cookie cutter construction in modern day.

Not disputing that at all. I have a house that was built in 1976. Not too long after we bought it, we needed to replace the p-trap under one of the toilets. It took the plumbers the better part of a day to punch through the slab because it was obnoxiously thick.

We started looking for a house in January 2017 and didn't close on this one until May, because there were far, far more people looking for houses in our price range than there were houses to buy. We literally had one house go under contract from another buyer while we were touring it. But the developers keep on blithely building $300,000 houses. I guess someone's buying them, but if the free market was as good as everyone says it is, someone should be swooping in to meet the demand. I haven't seen it happen.

Where I live, a $250,000 house is a pretty solid middle class home.  Not a starter home by any means, but hardly a McMansion.  The second house I ever owned I bought for $260,000 fifteen years ago, and while it was nice, it was a pretty standard raised ranch.

The reason that builders build higher end homes is due to profit margin.  So building something pricier, that sits empty for a couple of additional months, is more worth it for them than a starter home that sells immediately. 

[SP Cook]

As to clothing, I just do not buy business or dress clothes anymore, as I am in the twilight of my working life and pretty much plan to ride it out with the stuff on hand.  I have no problem buying more casual clothes (I mostly wear sweat suits/jogging outfits when not working), just based on sizes.  But I would have a hard time buying a suit on line. 

In Charleston, WV, the state capitol (not just politically, but where all the lawyers and accountants and MBAs that run things are) there is now a Men's Wearhouse and two four figure per suit hand tailors, and that is it.  Probably 30 places to buy suits 15 years ago.

[Pink Jazz]

Back in 2015-2016, for the clothes that I buy (typically IZOD), Amazon was still typically more expensive than JCPenney if you were able to take advantage of JCPenney's coupons and Ship to Store option.  However, fast forward to 2020, and now Amazon tends to be more price competitive, even when comparing JCPenney's coupon prices.  JCPenney is just not friendly towards online shoppers.  Even Kohl's tends to be more friendly towards online shoppers than JCPenney it seems like, and in recent years I have bought more from Kohl's than I have from JCPenney.

Also, Amazon tends to carry merchandise from past collections for much longer than JCPenney.

[1995hoo]

It's easy to buy business shirts online because the two measurements that matter are neck and sleeve and I just make sure it's not a "slim fit" (or similar description). I've ordered a lot of shirts from a company in London and they always fit quite well. I don't need as many as I used to, though, because I telecommute even without the pandemic. We don't have webcams on our laptops for IT security reasons, so I don't need to worry about dressing for videoconferences or the like.

Socks are another thing that are easy to get online. Trousers, though, no thanks. I did order two pairs of LL Bean jeans online (types the store at Tysons doesn't carry), but anything more formal than that is likely to be something I want to try on, and I cannot imagine ordering a suit online if I have to buy another one. I don't fit into the sartorial standard sizes and I have to buy "suit separates" for it to fit unless and until I lose some weight.

[hbelkins]

I pretty much have to buy clothing online, due to cost and availability. Even though I've lost some weight, and clothes (particularly pants) that fit are easier to find, I still have difficulty commonly finding affordable khakis for work that fit. Usually, a shirt's a shirt, but I like to try on pants for the most part. I've had some luck ordering from Walmart and Amazon, but with the latter, you have to look for bargains. The prices seem to change daily. I held off buying some pants and the price went down significantly. I probably should go ahead and order them before it goes back up. I'm having to buy a bunch of new pants because my waistline is significantly smaller than it was a year ago, when I scored a great buy on khakis from Walmart that fit at the time.

What I tended to do was buy something from Penney, and if it fit well, order more online.

[webny99]

The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.

The median home price in the United States is about $248,000.  That is the definition of middle class.

Where I'm at, middle class housing is in the $120,000—$150,000 range for a three-bedroom. The $250,000 houses are basically small McMansions.

Similar here, but that's on the lower end of the scale nationally, especially for a decent-sized metro area.

[Pink Jazz]

One thing that might be part of the issue is the fashion calendar.  Fashion companies want to push out spring/summer clothes in January and fall/winter clothes in July (or even earlier for both), but is that really what modern consumers want, or do modern consumers want to buy what is appropriate for the weather?  With online shopping you can buy clothes for any season year-round.

[roadman65]

Well looks like JC Penney is beaten Sears to the finish. Another thread had someone state that those two werw in a running for closing. Now the race is over.

[paulthemapguy]

The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.

The median home price in the United States is about $248,000.  That is the definition of middle class.

That's indicative of what's being marketed to the middle class, not what they can comfortably afford.

[vdeane]

I have been buying clothes online.  Got a bunch of dress shirts and just got a pair of khakis.

Everything fits and is fine.

Men have it a LOT easier.  Not only are the sizes actually standardized, but there are fewer measurements to worry about since women tend to be more curvy.  As a result, short of having every article of clothing tailor-made, it's practically impossible to buy an article of women's clothing that 100% fits just right.

It gets worse if your body shape is a bit non-standard.  For example, I have short legs and a long torso.  Recently, I had to buy new pants for the office.  In the past, I've worn hand-me-downs from Mom, but that wasn't an option this time, so I actually had to go shopping.  What a nightmare that was.  It took nearly two hours and trying on practically every pair of pants in the store, but I finally found something that wasn't either too small in the waist/hips or with long enough legs that I'd trip on them - in the petit section.  I'm 5' 8'' and overweight (enough so that hiding my stomach is priority number 1 when shopping for anything).  Never would have thought to look there, at least not until I was desperate.

With shirts and blouses I have the opposite problem - things tend to be too short in the torso.  Moreover, women's clothing tends to be more fitted than men's, making finding things that would be flattering without losing 30 pounds a challenge.

I also have an extreme tactile sensitivity due to my Asperger's.  As such, comfort is a huge priority for me, and women's clothing just isn't built for comfort.  Putting it all together, I need a wide selection of stuff just to find one or two things I actually like... and even trying it on isn't a guarantee I won't find issues later (there was a time where I ended up returning or giving away half the stuff I bought, but I've managed to reduce that percentage over the years).  It would probably help if I knew more about fashion and had a personal style... but unless I could find a woman (preferably around my age, since the only person I've ever gotten clothing help from is Mom) who would be willing to take me under her wing and solve my shopping problems, I'm stuck doing what I am now.

The middle class are shopping online. 

But why?  Why would you want to pay for shipping and wait two weeks for something you haven't even tried on and can't easily return?  It's irrational.  If anything, I'm evolving towards less online shopping.  While I will occasionally buy books and whatnot from Amazon, I plan to dump them for everything that isn't a mp3 download as soon as my Prime subscription runs out (as I'll be transferring the money to HBO Max, since I mainly had it to stream Doctor Who anyways, and it's not worth keeping it for the once in a blue moon online purchase and to have access to the better quality way to watch CBS All Access).  I'd much rather go to one store for everything I need, try things on to verify fit (even then, I still tend to find issues with a decent chunk of the things I buy and end up donating them to goodwill since it doesn't feel right to return something once the tags have already been removed) and have my stuff immediately.

I'll only buy online these days if it's a replacement or duplicate of an existing item, and even that's not a guarantee.  I once tried to buy some replacement shapewear, and even though it was the same brand with the same product number with a similar looking picture, what I got was very different from what I had before.  I once bought a dress from Kohl's online (to avoid accumulating more Kohl's cash... I only even shopped there because I had a gift card).  It didn't fit as well or look as flattering as I had hoped.  I think I only wore it once and then never again, giving it away at some point since I couldn't ethically return it since I had already worn it all day.

[jakeroot]

I have been buying clothes online.  Got a bunch of dress shirts and just got a pair of khakis.

Everything fits and is fine.

Men have it a LOT easier.  Not only are the sizes actually standardized, but there are fewer measurements to worry about since women tend to be more curvy.  As a result, short of having every article of clothing tailor-made, it's practically impossible to buy an article of women's clothing that 100% fits just right.

I guess to answer your original reply:

I still want to know who is embracing online retail for apparel purchases.

At least men. The rating systems tell us whether the items run big or small, or fit as expected. And (obviously) you can buy a couple of the same things and return those that are too big or too small. Refunds are immediate for Amazon.

There is a large number of people who cannot possibly shop online. Judging by your response (which I clipped for brevity), you seem to be one of those people. But I also know that women do shop online. Certainly success varies from person to person, but the online-shopping market, overall, is not small, and certainly isn't made up entirely of men.

[oscar]

Well looks like JC Penney is beaten Sears to the finish. Another thread had someone state that those two werw in a running for closing. Now the race is over.

Ain't over until it's over. JC Penney is permanently closing only some of its stores. Chapter 11 bankruptcy can let a smaller JC Penney linger on for awhile like Sears has (the company's PR that it expects to be around for "decades" is probably total BS), and give Sears a chance to beat it to the grave.

[SEWIGuy]

But why?  Why would you want to pay for shipping and wait two weeks for something you haven't even tried on and can't easily return?  It's irrational. 

Because shipping isn't that expensive, you don't have to wait "two weeks" and returning stuff is actually pretty easy.

It's not irrational.  It has to do with the value of someone's time.  Driving to a store, looking around, trying something on, and going home takes much more time than looking on a computer and buying it.  And if it doesn't fit, many places already provide a return label these days.

[formulanone]

On topic for a bit, I only buy T-shirts or the exact item of something I already own(ed) online. I prefer to try on stuff; though my company orders us promotional shirts every year or so, and the sizes seem to vary wildly...some times the shirts are too big and other times, too short.

But I think stores like Target and Kohl's have filled that middle-class void which JCPenney's once filled. I'll even pick up a few clothing items at Wal-Mart. There wasn't much big-box development until 30 years ago, unless it was a grocery store. You went to the mall if you lived in suburbia, and that meant going to the big anchors if you wanted something fashionable or your parents insisted on some fancier duds on top of the hand-me-downs.

Whereas the big-boxes usually just have one or two styles, if you went to JCPenney's you could find what you were looking for in all size, colors, and styles. Maybe people are a little less picky about that, if they need it in-person...or go online if you want a tremendous variety.

The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.

The median home price in the United States is about $248,000.  That is the definition of middle class.

Where I'm at, middle class housing is in the $120,000—$150,000 range for a three-bedroom. The $250,000 houses are basically small McMansions.

But the developers keep on blithely building $300,000 houses. I guess someone's buying them, but if the free market was as good as everyone says it is, someone should be swooping in to meet the demand. I haven't seen it happen.

They still build the $150,000 houses, they just now sell for $300,000 - $500,000. To some extent, older homes are higher quality than a lot of the cheaper builds that are seen in cookie cutter construction in modern day.

Where I live, a $250,000 house is a pretty solid middle class home.  Not a starter home by any means, but hardly a McMansion.  The second house I ever owned I bought for $260,000 fifteen years ago, and while it was nice, it was a pretty standard raised ranch.

Another reason home prices continue to climb is that you're paying for it for 30 years; couple that with low interest rates in the past 15-20 years, banks willing to loan really high amounts of money (5-10 times your yearly income), and you have your reasons for escalating home prices. A home that costs $20K-30K more doesn't really increase your monthly mortgage payment that much, but it also creeps up overall prices.

Figure that land, materials, labor, licensing, inspection, and safety requirements are almost always increasing each year, so escalating prices aren't surprising. A new home development is usually seen as something with "less crime" and "better zoning" so it all falls back on itself and buyers' projections. So a builder can show that the used homes can capture the lower-cost or starter-home market, but it also depends on how much growth an area has; if there's a glut of new home building, they cater to different buyers' spending habits and older homes don't shine as much (even if they might have more personality). If you're lucky enough to live somewhere that has an increase in buyers well in advance of new-home production, then you can name your price.

But I think there's lots of people who eschew having a cookie-cutter home, or would prefer having more land and/or perceived privacy. That's not to say older homes aren't great values; if they're well kept-up and you can live with a few quirks - modern homes usually have larger closets, bathrooms, kitchens - and you're able to set aside a chunk of change for repairs (whether unforeseen and/or obvious) you might get more land and avoid zero-lot-lines.