J. C. Penney files for Ch. 11 Bankruptcy

[Pink Jazz]

As for some of the brands carried at JCPenney, you can find them elsewhere.  For example, IZOD and Van Heusen are sold at Kohl's and on Amazon.  In fact I buy most of my IZOD clothes from those two stores rather than JCPenney.

[hbelkins]

But why?  Why would you want to pay for shipping and wait two weeks for something you haven't even tried on and can't easily return?  It's irrational. 

Because shipping isn't that expensive, you don't have to wait "two weeks" and returning stuff is actually pretty easy.

It's not irrational.  It has to do with the value of someone's time.  Driving to a store, looking around, trying something on, and going home takes much more time than looking on a computer and buying it.  And if it doesn't fit, many places already provide a return label these days.

And both Amazon and Walmart have a pretty low threshold for free shipping, plus Walmart allows store pickup and returns for most of the items it sells online. You get free shipping with a $25 order from Amazon, and with Walmart if you don't opt for store pickup, it's $35 for free shipping.

[vdeane]

But why?  Why would you want to pay for shipping and wait two weeks for something you haven't even tried on and can't easily return?  It's irrational. 

Because shipping isn't that expensive, you don't have to wait "two weeks" and returning stuff is actually pretty easy.

It's not irrational.  It has to do with the value of someone's time.  Driving to a store, looking around, trying something on, and going home takes much more time than looking on a computer and buying it.  And if it doesn't fit, many places already provide a return label these days.

Free shipping with Amazon (not Prime) takes up to that long, I think.  About a week is fairly normal, though.  Not two days unless you're willing to pay for it.

Maybe I don't buy as much as most people, but even a nominal amount is enough to set off my compulsions for frugality.  I also don't have shipping materials for returns.  In any case, having to buy shipping materials and go to a UPS store to return things strikes me as a bigger hassle than just going to the store in the rist place would have been.

So let's say you buy something, and it's the wrong size, and you need to exchange for the correct size.  You order, pay the shipping charge (if you don't have free shipping), it shows up in a week.  You then send it back, that takes a week.  They send out the new item, that takes a week to come.  Three weeks for what would take five minutes in the store.  I can't imagine browsing the website, entering address/payment information, etc. is really faster than browsing the store, and driving to/from the store doesn't add much time (if you don't even have half an hour, then you have bigger problems then lack of time to shop; I only shop a couple of times per year, so it's really not that much time; plus I can stop at Great American Cookies for cookie cake slices while I'm at the mall).  I'm the type who considers it unethical to return something if the store can't resell the item unless it's defective, and for an online thing, that would be as simple as removing it from it's packaging, so that's out.  Plus I'm the type to try on five things for every one I buy, simply because finding things is that hard.

[kkt]

Men's clothes aren't all roses and wine either.  Sure, the pants only come measured in width and inseam, but depending on the rise they still might fit well or might fit badly.  Similar for shirts and jackets, two measurements just isn't enough.  I'd rather buy clothes in person too, unless it's casual T-shirt sizes or something I've bought before.

I suspect that fewer suit stores reflects fewer businesspeople who need to wear suits everyday compared to 20-30 years ago.  Workplaces have gotten more casual, unless you're a lawyer working in a courtroom or a senior banker.  (At least here, maybe WV is different.)

I don't dislike Penny's but I won't lose any sleep over them either.

[1995hoo]

We're not Amazon Prime members and I regularly find the free shipping (not sure if they still call it "super-saver shipping") that's supposed to take a week or two usually takes nowhere close to that amount of time–I often receive stuff in two or three days even with the non-Prime free shipping. I wonder whether part of that has to do with there being an Amazon fulfillment center in Springfield just off I-395 about 15 minutes from our house.

[kphoger]

I still want to know who is embracing online retail for apparel purchases.  I will never, ever buy something new that I haven't tried on in person.  Finding stuff that fits, is affordable, and is good quality is very, very hard (at least for women... men likely have fewer challenges on that front).  Besides, who wants to pay for shipping and wait for an item to arrive?  Granted, I don't do fast fashion.  I'm the type to buy clothes once and then expect them to last 5-10 years, and I insist on everything being machine wash and dryable ("hand wash only" is ridiculously common for women's clothing).

Having grown up in a very small town hours away from the nearest mall, I was accustomed as a child to mail-ordered clothing.  Having said that–as a tall, skinny man, I have perhaps the opposite experience of most men when it comes to clothes shopping.

First of all, ordering pants that fit at a brick-and-mortar store is nearly impossible, with the occasional exception being a large western wear store.  Specifically, I wear size 29/34 jeans.  That's basically impossible to find in a place like JCP, and even western wear stores are hit or miss.  So ordering online is the best way for me to buy pants.  I can even shop around based on the quality of the material, which is a definite step above "buy whatever you can find in stock".

In contrast, however, finding collared shirts that fit is really hard.  Regular-fit shirts usually have sleeves that are too short for me.  Big-and-tall sizes, however, end up being really baggy on me.  For collared shirts, it's best for me to shop at stores that are a little pricier and try on a bunch.

Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt?  First Payless and now JCPenney.  Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.

Darned millennials are ruining everything.

[jakeroot]

Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt?  First Payless and now JCPenney.  Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.

Darned millennials are ruining everything.

Speaking seriously for a moment, I can testify that we are ruining everything. But primarily because of our interest in experiences. If we're going to go to the mall to go shopping, we better at least have a good time. There is [was] nothing enjoyable about Payless; nothing enjoyable about JCPenney; nothing enjoyable about Sears...these places are drab and boring, with low ceilings, grey everywhere, and a generally uninviting vibe. Plus, the latter two are stupidly large and you can't find anything (the JCPenney in South Hill, WA is so large that the woman's department is an entirely different store in the mall). Compare them, say, to H&M, or Victoria's Secret, or Eddie Bauer: great decoration, enjoyable and fairly young employees, and overall inviting. Plus, they're small enough that you can find what you're looking for easily, whether it's clothing or an employee.

[vdeane]

To me, small doesn't mean "easy to find things", it means "lower selection".  Fewer sizes, fewer styles, fewer types of clothing sold (thereby meaning visits to more stores), etc.

[jakeroot]

To me, small doesn't mean "easy to find things", it means "lower selection".  Fewer sizes, fewer styles, fewer types of clothing sold (thereby meaning visits to more stores), etc.

The expectation with smaller shops is definitely not 'all in one place'. It's "here's our selection, which is not huge but it's what we sell a lot of...we can order online and ship you anything else". It's a very profitable business model and certainly works for the vast majority of shoppers. If one store doesn't have what you want, then you wander to the next shop. I don't really see why that is problematic.

Based on what you've said about your experience shopping for clothes, you seem perfectly willing to spend hours inside a single store. Now, you get to spend hours inside multiple stores . That seems like a win for the overall economy, frankly, and you're still seeing a ton of different clothes, no different than you might at a JC Penney.

[Scott5114]

Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt?  First Payless and now JCPenney.  Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.

Darned millennials are ruining everything.

Speaking seriously for a moment, I can testify that we are ruining everything. But primarily because of our interest in experiences.

I think that's secondary. The primary reason we're ruining things is lack of disposable income.

[Rothman]

If one store doesn't have what you want, then you wander to the next shop. I don't really see why that is problematic.

Because I don't want to drive around from store to store for hours.

[jakeroot]

Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt?  First Payless and now JCPenney.  Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.

Darned millennials are ruining everything.

Speaking seriously for a moment, I can testify that we are ruining everything. But primarily because of our interest in experiences.

I think that's secondary. The primary reason we're ruining things is lack of disposable income.

Do you really think per-capita disposable income has changed much over the last twenty or thirty years? I think, if anything, it's stagnant.

My comment about experiences is referring to a typical millennial wanting to go somewhere that is fun, or cool, or hip. Fucking Sears couldn't be further from those things. We're happy to spend our hard earned cash. We just don't want to spend it at Sears because it's a miserable experience going there. JCPenney, at no fault of its own, became another Sears by simply being too big, too boring, and not cool.

If one store doesn't have what you want, then you wander to the next shop. I don't really see why that is problematic.

Because I don't want to drive around from store to store for hours.

No, but you'd be perfectly happy to drive three cities over to the next JCPenney to find that one item they don't have. God forbid you wander inside the shopping center* to any of the dozens of small shops that might also carry what you're looking for.

*my original hypothetical assumes you're at a shopping center already, since 98% of JCPenneys are at one anyhow. You obviously don't drive from shop to shop when you're at a shopping center.

[Scott5114]

Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt?  First Payless and now JCPenney.  Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.

Darned millennials are ruining everything.

Speaking seriously for a moment, I can testify that we are ruining everything. But primarily because of our interest in experiences.

I think that's secondary. The primary reason we're ruining things is lack of disposable income.

Do you really think per-capita disposable income has changed much over the last twenty or thirty years? I think, if anything, it's stagnant.

The financial crisis of 2008 hit right about when a lot of millennials were graduating from high school and college. The millennials went into the work force with shiny new degrees qualifying them to do work...only to find that all of the entry-level jobs were being occupied by down-and-out Gen Xers and Boomers, forced out of higher-level jobs and into entry-level. With the same degrees, and with the advantage of decades of experience, the Gen Xers and Boomers could easily outcompete the millennials.

With nowhere else to go, millennials were forced to take up jobs outside of their field in retail and similar unskilled trades, like casino gaming. (For instance, I had a friend in the roadgeek community who graduated with a GIS degree and then ended up managing a Taco Bell for a period of several years after graduation; another friend of mine here in Oklahoma has a master's in library science, and she was my predecessor running the OTB counter at the local casino for $40k/year.) These problems were just beginning to sort themselves out when the covid-related economic pause happened.

There are also the problems of federal minimum wage being drastically lower when indexed to inflation compared to the same time of Gen X and the Boomers' lives. Because of the unique adverse environment befalling the millennials, when you look at income, home ownership, and other statistics, millennials have been significantly set back compared to previous generations at the corresponding stages of their lives.

[Rothman]

If one store doesn't have what you want, then you wander to the next shop. I don't really see why that is problematic.

Because I don't want to drive around from store to store for hours.

No, but you'd be perfectly happy to drive three cities over to the next JCPenney to find that one item they don't have. God forbid you wander inside the shopping center* to any of the dozens of small shops that might also carry what you're looking for.

*my original hypothetical assumes you're at a shopping center already, since 98% of JCPenneys are at one anyhow. You obviously don't drive from shop to shop when you're at a shopping center.

No, I wouldn't.

[kkt]

Scott, Boomers who found themselves out of a job in 2008 would have faced a lot of age discrimination trying to get another one.  Employers would all be looking for those younger employees Jakeroot says he wants to see.

[vdeane]

Yeah, I certainly don't prefer to go hours upon hours shopping.  An hour or two... that time spent with two hours just searching for a pair of pants that fit was NOT fun, but since I buy things as I need them and not because I'm "having an experience" and happened to see something I liked, so the pants were a non-optional purchase (I needed them for work the next day after I noticed a tear in the pants I'd normally wear and the other pair I had available didn't fit as well).  Having to bounce from store to store would have only made it worse and increased the rising panic I was feeling that night!

Honestly, going to one place and browsing around sounds a LOT easier than bouncing from store to store hoping you find something - especially since I wouldn't really know what stores to look in, as the department store model is really all I know.

And no, I'm not driving to different cities just to get clothes.

Scott, Boomers who found themselves out of a job in 2008 would have faced a lot of age discrimination trying to get another one.  Employers would all be looking for those younger employees Jakeroot says he wants to see.

I graduated college in 2013.  Every "entry level" job I saw wanted at least 2-5 years of experience.

[1995hoo]

....

And no, I'm not driving to different cities just to get clothes.

Heh. I'd have to ask my mom to confirm, but I seem to recall one of my parents said when we lived in Copperas Cove, Texas, back when I was born, they had to drive around 80 miles to Austin to go clothes shopping if they wanted more than just basic stuff. We moved to Virginia when I was 1, so I have no memory of any of that. But it was obviously a somewhat different situation given that they didn't have a whole lot of choice on where to live–there was no on-base housing available when my father got sent there, so it was either Copperas Cove or Killeen and it didn't really matter what services were or were not available (or, for that matter, whether the town had niceties like paved roads)–the Army told my father "you're going there" and they did the best they could.

[webny99]

....
And no, I'm not driving to different cities just to get clothes.

Heh. I'd have to ask my mom to confirm, but I seem to recall one of my parents said when we lived in Copperas Cove, Texas, back when I was born, they had to drive around 80 miles to Austin to go clothes shopping if they wanted more than just basic stuff.

Well, if you don't live in a city to begin with, you might have drive 80 miles or even double that in some cases, just to get to a city.

I had family friends in rural ND at one point that would drive an hour and a half just to do their regular grocery shopping, much less clothes shopping. Mind you, it was an easy hour and a half. I'd take that cruise on the interstate over a trip from Alexandria to Towson any day of the week.

[1995hoo]

....
And no, I'm not driving to different cities just to get clothes.

Heh. I'd have to ask my mom to confirm, but I seem to recall one of my parents said when we lived in Copperas Cove, Texas, back when I was born, they had to drive around 80 miles to Austin to go clothes shopping if they wanted more than just basic stuff.

Well, if you don't live in a city to begin with, you might have drive 80 miles or even double that in some cases, just to get to a city.

I had family friends in rural ND at one point that would drive an hour and a half just to do their regular grocery shopping, much less clothes shopping. Mind you, it was an easy hour and a half. I'd take that cruise on the interstate over a trip from Alexandria to Towson any day of the week.

Well, who knows what they'd do now. Things like online shopping didn't exist back then.

[kphoger]

I had family friends in rural ND at one point that would drive an hour and a half just to do their regular grocery shopping, much less clothes shopping. Mind you, it was an easy hour and a half. I'd take that cruise on the interstate over a trip from Alexandria to Towson any day of the week.

When I was growing up in northwestern Kansas, my family made a monthly trip of 50 miles each way to get what groceries couldn't be found in town.

[jakeroot]

If one store doesn't have what you want, then you wander to the next shop. I don't really see why that is problematic.

Because I don't want to drive around from store to store for hours.

No, but you'd be perfectly happy to drive three cities over to the next JCPenney to find that one item they don't have. God forbid you wander inside the shopping center* to any of the dozens of small shops that might also carry what you're looking for.

*my original hypothetical assumes you're at a shopping center already, since 98% of JCPenneys are at one anyhow. You obviously don't drive from shop to shop when you're at a shopping center.

No, I wouldn't.

Not you, Roth. I'm speaking in hypotheticals here. I don't give a shit what you do. I'm trying to make a point that some people insist on visiting only department stores, which to me is tragic when shopping centers literally exist to serve more than just one store. The big department stores might draw people to the center ("anchors") but the idea is not to just give up immediately if you don't find what you want at JCPenney or Sears, etc. Of course, it seems that the younger generations are going to the other stores, hence the point of this thread.

Honestly, going to one place and browsing around sounds a LOT easier than bouncing from store to store hoping you find something - especially since I wouldn't really know what stores to look in, as the department store model is really all I know.

So you really don't wander into a shopping center at all? You're missing out on a lot of stores. You could easily find what you're looking for if you stop looking at just huge department stores. Who's to say it will take more time than only looking at one store? Sure, you have to go store to store, but that second store could be full of exactly what you're looking for.

My generation (born, say, 1990 and beyond) definitely did not grow up with the department store model as the "go to" place. We are used to department stores, but our preference is certainly not to flood into those stores exclusively and never consider anything else (such as was the case with my grandparents). That is almost certainly a huge part of why JCPenney and Sears are dying, and why the smaller-scale, more specific clothing stores are succeeding a bit more (although not exclusively, and one-off shops may not do that well either since word-of-mouth is huge, and chains feed off that -- JCPenney and Sears are just struggling with bad word of mouth).

The nice thing about bouncing from store to store is that you can go stores that exclusively pander to your personal style. Maybe you don't have a style. I think you're fairly unusual in that respect, but people like to go to Banana Republic, Forever 21, H&M, Ecco, or whatever because they fit the look or style they want.

If you were looking for pants for a specific use (work?), there's probably a store that carries them other than JCPenney or whatever. Nordstrom, if you insist on the department model, probably would have had better selection.

[Konza]

I'll throw a few things out here:

JCP has over 840 stores.  In the bankruptcy, they're planning to close only 240.

Apparently a team from Amazon is currently in Texas looking into buying JCP out of bankruptcy.

More than anything else, the big boxes killed the department stores.  Who would have thought fifty years ago that Montgomery Ward would have been long gone, Sears was hanging on by a very thin thread, and Penney's was in the first stages of bankruptcy?  But Walmart and Target, among others, took out the bottom of their market.  Best Buy, and later the home improvement big boxes, became serious competitors for appliances and electronics.  You have apparel big boxes like Old Navy, and home furnishings big boxes like Bed, Bath, and Beyond.

Any one of those three companies could have become Amazon.  All they needed to do was move their catalog and ordering process online.  Their network of brick and mortar stores would have been a huge competitive advantage.  None of them did.

You can compete against the big boxes, but you need to offer service that they do not offer, or are not willing to, and you need to sell higher margin goods that they choose not to sell.  In an economic downturn, it's the people in the middle who usually stop buying- or at best by goods of lesser quality.  The people at the top have money, and the people at the bottom continue to have needs.  The people in the middle move down, and then move back up if things get better for them.

Shopping malls used to be built because the anchors (department stores) needed to add locations.  When they no longer need to do so (but other retailers saw opportunities), developers built "lifestyle centers"- essentially shopping centers that feature stores from national or regional chains- but not department stores.  Generally upscale, because that's where the money was.

And, finally, the worst thing to buy online:  SHOES.  I can't think of anything more frustrating.

[Highway63]

Speaking seriously for a moment, I can testify that we are ruining everything. But primarily because of our interest in experiences. If we're going to go to the mall to go shopping, we better at least have a good time. There is [was] nothing enjoyable about Payless; nothing enjoyable about JCPenney; nothing enjoyable about Sears...these places are drab and boring, with low ceilings, grey everywhere, and a generally uninviting vibe.

I don't (didn't) need Payless to be enjoyable. I needed it to have low-cost shoes in my size.

[hbelkins]

Shopping was a fun, entertaining experience for me at one point. When I was in college, I'd go out to the department stores in Morehead that preceded Walmart (which didn't come to town until five or six years after I graduated; we had a Rose's, a Maloney's, and a Heck's, I believe) and look through their music section to see if any new albums had come out. In later years, I began to enjoy browsing the CD and electronics selections at places like Best Buy and Circuit City, and the clothing section in Walmart. I didn't care what the stores looked like. I was interested in the merchandise.

At some point, I completely lost interest in doing anything like that. Now, shopping is a necessary task that I do to pick up essentials (I don't have disposable income anymore). I want to get it done and over with in the shortest amount of time possible, and don't need enhancements or amenities or extras to try to make it an entertaining experience. What I want is to be able to quickly get what items I want, get them at the cheapest price possible, and be able to get out of the store and back home in the least amount of time possible.

*my original hypothetical assumes you're at a shopping center already, since 98% of JCPenneys are at one anyhow. You obviously don't drive from shop to shop when you're at a shopping center.

You do if you're at a place like Hamburg Pavilion in Lexington, where the crap is all spread out.

https://goo.gl/maps/EFYSyctAFLBw3wAW6

[vdeane]

So you really don't wander into a shopping center at all? You're missing out on a lot of stores. You could easily find what you're looking for if you stop looking at just huge department stores. Who's to say it will take more time than only looking at one store? Sure, you have to go store to store, but that second store could be full of exactly what you're looking for.

My generation (born, say, 1990 and beyond) definitely did not grow up with the department store model as the "go to" place. We are used to department stores, but our preference is certainly not to flood into those stores exclusively and never consider anything else (such as was the case with my grandparents). That is almost certainly a huge part of why JCPenney and Sears are dying, and why the smaller-scale, more specific clothing stores are succeeding a bit more (although not exclusively, and one-off shops may not do that well either since word-of-mouth is huge, and chains feed off that -- JCPenney and Sears are just struggling with bad word of mouth).

The nice thing about bouncing from store to store is that you can go stores that exclusively pander to your personal style. Maybe you don't have a style. I think you're fairly unusual in that respect, but people like to go to Banana Republic, Forever 21, H&M, Ecco, or whatever because they fit the look or style they want.

If you were looking for pants for a specific use (work?), there's probably a store that carries them other than JCPenney or whatever. Nordstrom, if you insist on the department model, probably would have had better selection.

Not a whole lot these days, unless you count Great American Cookies (which I almost always drive to from JCPenney, not because I don't feel like walking, but because I got tired of being harassed by the people selling things in the walkways and because legally I need to turn right out of the parking lot anyways and it's a good excuse to turn around).  I used to go in to get shoes at Payless (I was thinking about trying Famous Footwear the next time I need shoes, but who knows what the retail landscape will be post-pandemic at this point) and got a few pieces at Forever 21 back when I was younger and before I got frustrated with how many things there are hand wash and/or line dry/dry flat and with how their clothes don't last long.

I'm not really sure I have a personal style, aside from "business casual" and a shirt plus jeans/shorts/a skirt.  It would probably take shopping with someone who knows more about fashion and whatnot to develop one, and it doesn't help that my wardrobe needs shifted when I started working for DOT and the majority of my (non-pandemic) clothing needs became officeware.  It was certainly easy to shop pretty much entirely at one store, and easy became the predominating factor in a lot of things when most areas of my life began falling into a rut several years ago.

Fun fact: during the year I lived in Rome, NY, the local JCPenney was one of the few not attached to a mall.