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Pennsylvania

Started by Alex, March 07, 2009, 07:01:05 PM

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Alps

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on February 03, 2020, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 03, 2020, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on February 03, 2020, 01:39:23 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on February 03, 2020, 08:54:37 AM
Quote from: Alps on February 02, 2020, 04:23:31 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on February 02, 2020, 02:01:31 PM
Does it bug anyone that I-376 isn't signed N-S, despite that being its general direction? The opposite goes for PA 60, which I-376 supplanted.

In addition, the continuation of 376 north of I-80 should be PA 376, not PA 760.
In addition, since I-376 is now a loop from I-80 to I-76, it should be renumbered I-876, 280, or 880.
As most of us here know, one reason why I-376 is signed E-W was because such was how the original 1972-segment of I-376 from I-279 and eastward was signed.  I-376 taking over the southern leg of I-279 and most of PA 60 has only been a thing of the past decade(?).  Another reason was probably due to the mile markers/interchange numbers along I-376 starting at the northern end and increasing in the southeasterly direction.

That said, PennDOT/PTC could've either made the entire I-376 N-S with those additional miles or simply sign the added stretch N-S and keep the eastern portion E-W.  3-digit interstates changing direction cardinals within a state are indeed allowed in certain instances. 

As far as using a different, even 3-di number for I-376; I agree.  Although I would either choose I-280 or reassign I-276 to that stretch and redesignate the current I-276 as I-876.  Heck, had all the movements of the I-95/276/295 interchange been fully built; I-276 could've become an western extension of I-295 and such would indirectly resolved the awkward E-W signing of I-295 in PA.

I know, the above is fictional territory; so I'll stop here.

I'd say I-79 should be the dividing line since EB 376 from there to 279 was former NB 279.
I doubt you're going to see this happen because W-E and S-N are both the "zero" direction, so it would be violating exit number convention one way or the other.

Then let's make it completely S-N. That way, its exit numbers can increase from its parent instead of decreasing to it.
I'm gonna say no because that highway already just had its numbers changed and still runs west to east. We can discuss a 3xx not being appropriate but there is no reason now to change anything. What-if scenarios go to Fictional Highways.


Bitmapped

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on February 03, 2020, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 03, 2020, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on February 03, 2020, 01:39:23 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on February 03, 2020, 08:54:37 AM
Quote from: Alps on February 02, 2020, 04:23:31 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on February 02, 2020, 02:01:31 PM
Does it bug anyone that I-376 isn't signed N-S, despite that being its general direction? The opposite goes for PA 60, which I-376 supplanted.

In addition, the continuation of 376 north of I-80 should be PA 376, not PA 760.
In addition, since I-376 is now a loop from I-80 to I-76, it should be renumbered I-876, 280, or 880.
As most of us here know, one reason why I-376 is signed E-W was because such was how the original 1972-segment of I-376 from I-279 and eastward was signed.  I-376 taking over the southern leg of I-279 and most of PA 60 has only been a thing of the past decade(?).  Another reason was probably due to the mile markers/interchange numbers along I-376 starting at the northern end and increasing in the southeasterly direction.

That said, PennDOT/PTC could've either made the entire I-376 N-S with those additional miles or simply sign the added stretch N-S and keep the eastern portion E-W.  3-digit interstates changing direction cardinals within a state are indeed allowed in certain instances. 

As far as using a different, even 3-di number for I-376; I agree.  Although I would either choose I-280 or reassign I-276 to that stretch and redesignate the current I-276 as I-876.  Heck, had all the movements of the I-95/276/295 interchange been fully built; I-276 could've become an western extension of I-295 and such would indirectly resolved the awkward E-W signing of I-295 in PA.

I know, the above is fictional territory; so I'll stop here.

I'd say I-79 should be the dividing line since EB 376 from there to 279 was former NB 279.
I doubt you're going to see this happen because W-E and S-N are both the "zero" direction, so it would be violating exit number convention one way or the other.

Then let's make it completely S-N. That way, its exit numbers can increase from its parent instead of decreasing to it.

I-376 is east-west on what is, by far, its most heavily traveled segment between the Pittsburgh airport, downtown Pittsburgh, and Monroeville. North/south through here would be confusing and make no sense.

Beltway

Quote from: Bitmapped on February 04, 2020, 06:11:32 PM
I-376 is east-west on what is, by far, its most heavily traveled segment between the Pittsburgh airport, downtown Pittsburgh, and Monroeville. North/south through here would be confusing and make no sense.
Gripes nothwithstanding ...

The way that they used I-376 had the benefits of the least amount of Interstate renumbering needed (just I-279 between I-79 and the downtown) and the use of one number for the whole corridor.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 08:55:50 PM
Quote from: Bitmapped on February 04, 2020, 06:11:32 PM
I-376 is east-west on what is, by far, its most heavily traveled segment between the Pittsburgh airport, downtown Pittsburgh, and Monroeville. North/south through here would be confusing and make no sense.
Gripes nothwithstanding ...

The way that they used I-376 had the benefits of the least amount of Interstate renumbering needed (just I-279 between I-79 and the downtown) and the use of one number for the whole corridor.
False. Keeping 279 and 376, and using a new even-numbered Interstate for PA 60, would have been the minimum. This required renumbering a whole host of exits. There is also not one corridor here - the former PA 60 is a separate utility from Parkway West.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on February 04, 2020, 09:04:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 08:55:50 PM
The way that they used I-376 had the benefits of the least amount of Interstate renumbering needed (just I-279 between I-79 and the downtown) and the use of one number for the whole corridor.
False. Keeping 279 and 376, and using a new even-numbered Interstate for PA 60, would have been the minimum. This required renumbering a whole host of exits. There is also not one corridor here - the former PA 60 is a separate utility from Parkway West.
I'm just citing what was probably PennDOT's rationale for the route.

So the east-west highway between the airport and Monroeville would have 3 separate Interstate numbers.

What do you think was PennDOT's rationale here?
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 09:40:10 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 04, 2020, 09:04:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 08:55:50 PM
The way that they used I-376 had the benefits of the least amount of Interstate renumbering needed (just I-279 between I-79 and the downtown) and the use of one number for the whole corridor.
False. Keeping 279 and 376, and using a new even-numbered Interstate for PA 60, would have been the minimum. This required renumbering a whole host of exits. There is also not one corridor here - the former PA 60 is a separate utility from Parkway West.
I'm just citing what was probably PennDOT's rationale for the route.

So the east-west highway between the airport and Monroeville would have 3 separate Interstate numbers.

What do you think was PennDOT's rationale here?
I really don't know why this needed to be an Interstate at all.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on February 04, 2020, 10:17:04 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 09:40:10 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 04, 2020, 09:04:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 08:55:50 PM
The way that they used I-376 had the benefits of the least amount of Interstate renumbering needed (just I-279 between I-79 and the downtown) and the use of one number for the whole corridor.
False. Keeping 279 and 376, and using a new even-numbered Interstate for PA 60, would have been the minimum. This required renumbering a whole host of exits. There is also not one corridor here - the former PA 60 is a separate utility from Parkway West.
I'm just citing what was probably PennDOT's rationale for the route.
So the east-west highway between the airport and Monroeville would have 3 separate Interstate numbers.
What do you think was PennDOT's rationale here?
I really don't know why this needed to be an Interstate at all.
True ... it did well enough as PA-60.

I-279 was an urban access loop, or partial loop providing southerly/westerly and northerly access to the downtown of Pittsburgh, from/to I-79.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Hwy 61 Revisited

Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 10:33:25 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 04, 2020, 10:17:04 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 09:40:10 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 04, 2020, 09:04:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 08:55:50 PM
The way that they used I-376 had the benefits of the least amount of Interstate renumbering needed (just I-279 between I-79 and the downtown) and the use of one number for the whole corridor.
False. Keeping 279 and 376, and using a new even-numbered Interstate for PA 60, would have been the minimum. This required renumbering a whole host of exits. There is also not one corridor here - the former PA 60 is a separate utility from Parkway West.
I'm just citing what was probably PennDOT's rationale for the route.
So the east-west highway between the airport and Monroeville would have 3 separate Interstate numbers.
What do you think was PennDOT's rationale here?
I really don't know why this needed to be an Interstate at all.
True ... it did well enough as PA-60.

I-279 was an urban access loop, or partial loop providing southerly/westerly and northerly access to the downtown of Pittsburgh, from/to I-79.

The switch was made because Pittsburgh International Airport was one of the few that didn't have any Interstate access. So why not just extend 376? Extending 279 would have been nonsense, and it might be odd to have 2 N-S Interstates start at the same place.
And you may ask yourself, where does that highway go to?
--David Byrne

Beltway

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on February 05, 2020, 08:49:38 AM
Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 10:33:25 PM
True ... it did well enough as PA-60.
I-279 was an urban access loop, or partial loop providing southerly/westerly and northerly access to the downtown of Pittsburgh, from/to I-79.
The switch was made because Pittsburgh International Airport was one of the few that didn't have any Interstate access. So why not just extend 376? Extending 279 would have been nonsense, and it might be odd to have 2 N-S Interstates start at the same place.
There are a whole group of Beaver Valley boros and cities that probably wanted an Interstate highway as well.

Has there been a thread of international airports without Interstate access?

I can think of a number in my region of the country, 2 of the 3 NYC airports and 2 of the 3 Washington area airports.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on February 05, 2020, 01:20:03 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on February 05, 2020, 08:49:38 AM
Quote from: Beltway on February 04, 2020, 10:33:25 PM
True ... it did well enough as PA-60.
I-279 was an urban access loop, or partial loop providing southerly/westerly and northerly access to the downtown of Pittsburgh, from/to I-79.
The switch was made because Pittsburgh International Airport was one of the few that didn't have any Interstate access. So why not just extend 376? Extending 279 would have been nonsense, and it might be odd to have 2 N-S Interstates start at the same place.
There are a whole group of Beaver Valley boros and cities that probably wanted an Interstate highway as well.

Has there been a thread of international airports without Interstate access?

I can think of a number in my region of the country, 2 of the 3 NYC airports and 2 of the 3 Washington area airports.

JFK->678, EWR->78...

Gnutella

If you're going to screw around with the cardinal directions on I-376, then do it at the PA 576/Pittsburgh International Airport interchange. West of the interchange, have a BGS that says I-376 West BECOMES I-376 North. East of the interchange, have a BGS that says I-376 South BECOMES I-376 East.

seicer

You don't really need a sign to indicate that. Plenty of cardinal directions change without any indication.

VTGoose

Quote from: Gnutella on February 06, 2020, 02:04:55 AM
If you're going to screw around with the cardinal directions on I-376, then do it at the PA 576/Pittsburgh International Airport interchange. West of the interchange, have a BGS that says I-376 West BECOMES I-376 North. East of the interchange, have a BGS that says I-376 South BECOMES I-376 East.

Is the average driver that concerned about which direction a highway goes? With GPS instructions giving guidance, how difficult is it for someone to get from Carnegie to the airport and on to Erie? This just seems to be a road geek's wet dream and not a problem for everyone else.

Bruce in Blacksburg (but a native of the 'Burgh)
"Get in the fast lane, grandma!  The bingo game is ready to roll!"

PHLBOS

Quote from: seicer on February 06, 2020, 07:38:36 AMYou don't really need a sign to indicate that. Plenty of cardinal directions change without any indication.
True, but such didn't stop NJDOT from recently erecting advance, state-line cardinal direction change for I-295 approaching the replacement Scudder Falls Bridge.  Such is the only location I'm aware of where such signage is present.  If other locations exist; I'd be curious to know.

I stated such on the Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement thread and I'll restate here; while such signage may be technically correct, it's not really necessary IMHO... especially if such a change occurs at a state-line.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Beltway

Quote from: PHLBOS on February 06, 2020, 09:50:32 AM
I stated such on the Scudder Falls Bridge Replacement thread and I'll restate here; while such signage may be technically correct, it's not really necessary IMHO... especially if such a change occurs at a state-line.
I see that the project is moving along --

Replace the current congestion-prone, functionally obsolete Scudder Falls Bridge with a dual-span structure carrying six thru-traffic lanes (three in each direction) and three auxiliary lanes (two Pennsylvania to New Jersey bound, one New Jersey to Pennsylvania bound) for traffic merging onto and off the bridge and shoulders for breakdown/emergency access.

Widen the bridge's Pennsylvania I-295 approach, increasing the roadway to three lanes in each direction. Improve drainage and approach-roadway exit/entry transitions in New Jersey; both project components to be completed in 2021.
http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/construction/

Project Construction Start  Spring 2017
First span of new bridge open to traffic -- Opened overnight July 9, 2019
Start All-Electronic Tolling (PA-bound only)  -- July 14, 2019
Second span of new bridge open to traffic -- Late 2021
Estimated Project Completion -- Early 2022
http://www.scudderfallsbridge.com/construction/update/
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

noelbotevera

Visited Philadelphia a month ago...and only now I'm posting this. Cause why not?

This was on Saturday, January 4th; everyone in my family was present and we hadn't been to Philly in a while.

-Left at roughly 11 AM; got on the Turnpike at I-83, exited at Valley Forge.
-Traffic was bad on the Schuylkill because it always is (except when it isn't, and that's whenever it feels like it); deflected onto I-476 and I-95 and entered Philly on Broad Street. Found parking fairly easily, despite being a weekend.
-Ate at South Philly Barbacoa (really good tacos! Highly recommend if you want Mexican food, though it was crowded because it was the lunch rush (2 PM)). Wasn't satisfied, so we ate at Pat's for the Philly cheesesteak (I liked the ones with sharp provolone) and cannolis.
-Made our way to Eastern State Penitentiary, more or less when the sun was setting. Actually a spooky place when it gets dark (and also chilly inside the walls), but would make for a killer paintball arena - though the current Halloween attraction sounds like a fair compromise. Also laugh at their idea of prison reform in the 1820s (covering their faces with burlap bags? Practically the same as being executed).
-Also checked out Elfreth's Alley in the dark, because why not - we weren't hungry. Turns out finding parking in Philly is a nightmare on weekends.
-Decided to go to Villa di Roma, since that's where major scenes in The Irishmen were filmed - I think it's where Frank Sheeran meets Russell Bufalino. Turns out we'd already been there, so oh well. Burnt $10 on parking. We decided to check out an interesting sandwich shop (Paesano's) instead, and then learned they moved recently (from Girard Avenue to a couple blocks up Frankford Avenue, on Marlborough Street - why?). Oh well, bad luck; ate dinner at a nearby pho place - I got some bahn mi and a mango smoothie, so I wasn't entirely unhappy.
-Left at around 9 PM, back in Chambersburg by 11 or so. By some miracle, the Schuylkill was clear as well.

Turns out the Italian Market isn't very Italian these days. Also, Northeast Philly (particularly north of Spring Garden Street) is home to a lot of rather...modern...places. Take a walk down Frankford Avenue near Girard and you see what I mean.

Hwy 61 Revisited

Quote from: noelbotevera on February 06, 2020, 05:49:53 PM
Visited Philadelphia a month ago...and only now I'm posting this. Cause why not?

This was on Saturday, January 4th; everyone in my family was present and we hadn't been to Philly in a while.

-Left at roughly 11 AM; got on the Turnpike at I-83, exited at Valley Forge.
-Traffic was bad on the Schuylkill because it always is (except when it isn't, and that's whenever it feels like it); deflected onto I-476 and I-95 and entered Philly on Broad Street. Found parking fairly easily, despite being a weekend.
-Ate at South Philly Barbacoa (really good tacos! Highly recommend if you want Mexican food, though it was crowded because it was the lunch rush (2 PM)). Wasn't satisfied, so we ate at Pat's for the Philly cheesesteak (I liked the ones with sharp provolone) and cannolis.
-Made our way to Eastern State Penitentiary, more or less when the sun was setting. Actually a spooky place when it gets dark (and also chilly inside the walls), but would make for a killer paintball arena - though the current Halloween attraction sounds like a fair compromise. Also laugh at their idea of prison reform in the 1820s (covering their faces with burlap bags? Practically the same as being executed).
-Also checked out Elfreth's Alley in the dark, because why not - we weren't hungry. Turns out finding parking in Philly is a nightmare on weekends.
-Decided to go to Villa di Roma, since that's where major scenes in The Irishmen were filmed - I think it's where Frank Sheeran meets Russell Bufalino. Turns out we'd already been there, so oh well. Burnt $10 on parking. We decided to check out an interesting sandwich shop (Paesano's) instead, and then learned they moved recently (from Girard Avenue to a couple blocks up Frankford Avenue, on Marlborough Street - why?). Oh well, bad luck; ate dinner at a nearby pho place - I got some bahn mi and a mango smoothie, so I wasn't entirely unhappy.
-Left at around 9 PM, back in Chambersburg by 11 or so. By some miracle, the Schuylkill was clear as well.

Turns out the Italian Market isn't very Italian these days. Also, Northeast Philly (particularly north of Spring Garden Street) is home to a lot of rather...modern...places. Take a walk down Frankford Avenue near Girard and you see what I mean.

Oh dear, the Schuylkill is a nightmare! Why don't they make it a stacked highway or something throughout?
And you may ask yourself, where does that highway go to?
--David Byrne

tckma

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on February 10, 2020, 05:23:50 PM
Oh dear, the Schuylkill is a nightmare! Why don't they make it a stacked highway or something throughout?

I don't think the ground can support a double-decker highway.  Given that some superior intellect decided to build the darn thing between a river and a mountain, I don't think there are any expansion options.

Hwy 61 Revisited

Quote from: Beltway on February 05, 2020, 01:20:03 PM
Has there been a thread of international airports without Interstate access?

Now there is!  :sombrero: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26408.0
And you may ask yourself, where does that highway go to?
--David Byrne

ixnay

Quote from: PAHighways on February 02, 2020, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: ixnay on February 02, 2020, 04:46:40 PMAnd confuse Allegheny Countians even more?   :rolleyes: :-|  :) East of (current) I-79 that part alone has been I-70, 76, 79, 279, as well as 376 at various times.

Pittsburghers just call it "the Parkway" no matter its route designations.

Quote from: ixnay on February 02, 2020, 04:46:40 PMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_376

I'm partial to this page.

I tried it, but looking for the Parkway's signing history on that page was like looking for a needle in a haystack.  Sorry, pal.

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

briantroutman

Took me all of five seconds–neatly summarized at the bottom of the page.

QuoteFormer Designations:   
PA 28 (1951 - 1961):  Exit 65 to Exit 69C
PA 80 (1951 - 1961):  Exit 78B to Exit 80
Alternate US 19 (1960 - 1961):  Exit 69C to Exit 70C
I-70 (1960 - 1964):  Exit 64A to I-76/PA Turnpike
PA 60 (1962 - 2009):  Exit 57 to Exit 60
I-79 (1964 - 1972):  Exit 64A to Exit 70C
I-76 (1964 - 1973):  Exit 70C to I-76/PA Turnpike
PA 18 (1968 - 1978):  Exit 1C to Exit 2
I-76 (1972 - 1973):  Exit 64A to Exit 70C
I-279 (1973 - 2009):  Exit 64A to Exit 70C
PA Toll 60 (1991 - 2008):  Exit 15 to Exit 17
PA 60 (1992 - 2009):  Exit 50 to Exit 57
PA Toll 60 (1992 - 2008):  Exit 17 to Exit 31
PA Turnpike 60 (2008 - 2009):  Exit 15 to Exit 31

ixnay

Quote from: briantroutman on February 12, 2020, 06:19:41 PM
Took me all of five seconds–neatly summarized at the bottom of the page.

QuoteFormer Designations:   
PA 28 (1951 - 1961):  Exit 65 to Exit 69C
PA 80 (1951 - 1961):  Exit 78B to Exit 80
Alternate US 19 (1960 - 1961):  Exit 69C to Exit 70C
I-70 (1960 - 1964):  Exit 64A to I-76/PA Turnpike
PA 60 (1962 - 2009):  Exit 57 to Exit 60
I-79 (1964 - 1972):  Exit 64A to Exit 70C
I-76 (1964 - 1973):  Exit 70C to I-76/PA Turnpike
PA 18 (1968 - 1978):  Exit 1C to Exit 2
I-76 (1972 - 1973):  Exit 64A to Exit 70C
I-279 (1973 - 2009):  Exit 64A to Exit 70C
PA Toll 60 (1991 - 2008):  Exit 15 to Exit 17
PA 60 (1992 - 2009):  Exit 50 to Exit 57
PA Toll 60 (1992 - 2008):  Exit 17 to Exit 31
PA Turnpike 60 (2008 - 2009):  Exit 15 to Exit 31

I rarely scroll down that far on those pages, thus those parts are not on my radar.

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

Alps

Quote from: ixnay on February 12, 2020, 06:54:43 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on February 12, 2020, 06:19:41 PM
Took me all of five seconds–neatly summarized at the bottom of the page.

QuoteFormer Designations:   
PA 28 (1951 - 1961):  Exit 65 to Exit 69C
PA 80 (1951 - 1961):  Exit 78B to Exit 80
Alternate US 19 (1960 - 1961):  Exit 69C to Exit 70C
I-70 (1960 - 1964):  Exit 64A to I-76/PA Turnpike
PA 60 (1962 - 2009):  Exit 57 to Exit 60
I-79 (1964 - 1972):  Exit 64A to Exit 70C
I-76 (1964 - 1973):  Exit 70C to I-76/PA Turnpike
PA 18 (1968 - 1978):  Exit 1C to Exit 2
I-76 (1972 - 1973):  Exit 64A to Exit 70C
I-279 (1973 - 2009):  Exit 64A to Exit 70C
PA Toll 60 (1991 - 2008):  Exit 15 to Exit 17
PA 60 (1992 - 2009):  Exit 50 to Exit 57
PA Toll 60 (1992 - 2008):  Exit 17 to Exit 31
PA Turnpike 60 (2008 - 2009):  Exit 15 to Exit 31

I rarely scroll down that far on those pages, thus those parts are not on my radar.

ixnay
Today we learned that  needles fall to the bottom of haystacks.

Crown Victoria


ixnay

The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.



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