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[Flint1979]

How does anyone here know exactly how much traffic crossing the border in Detroit and Port Huron are actually headed to Toronto? You don't think that some of that traffic has stops before Toronto and isn't heading to Toronto? Or how about traffic with enhanced drivers licenses crossing the border to take a short cut to get to Buffalo? Yes Toronto is the largest city in Canada and yes some of that traffic is heading there but not all of it.

Isn't that not all traffic on a road is heading to the control city common though? Like I-55 NB from Memphis is signed for St Louis (50 miles longer than Detroit to Toronto), but a good portion of long distance traffic leave I-55 to get on I-57 well before St Louis. Same with I-55 NB signing Chicago from St Louis; I-39 is a common veer-off mid-way. So in that case, signing Toronto from Detroit isn't too out of the ordinary.

The problem here is that Toronto is in another country and just using the country is fine because there are only 4 (about to be 5) crossings to get to Canada from Michigan. EB I-96 funnels into SB I-75 though so using Toledo wouldn't hurt anything.

In the example you used, St. Louis is the next logical choice on NB I-55, some of that traffic is headed for St. Louis too but yes I-57 gets the Chicago bound traffic well before I-55 gets to St. Louis. I think New York would probably sign Toronto but I know Michigan well and know that they do a pretty good job with control cities so it's not a big deal that they use Canada, if it was the last exit before you got to the border there would be a black on yellow sign letting you know that it's the last exit before fare. And like I said earlier Ontario doesn't even use Toronto between Windsor and London, they use London.

[Flint1979]

I just think that an actual city should be used more often when you can use one. One control city I hate is Delaware Water Gap on I-80 in PA.

To be clear, Delaware Water Gap is the name of a actual small town, it's the last town in PA as you go east. PA 611 goes through it. When you are there you are looking down at the I-80 bridge over the Delaware River.

The juxtaposition of the two sentences in what I quoted above --- makes me unsure if DWG is being viewed here as "just" a natural feature (which it also is) and not also a town, or if the problem is that it is not a big city (true). Or is the problem really that the control city isn't "New York City" to tie into a lot of other posts I have seen in these forums.

They are obviously not referring to the small town on the river when they use that they are referring to the actual water gap where I-80 goes into New Jersey.

Not according to the mileage sign ( yes there is one on I-80 near Hope, as NJ don’t like usually don’t like to erect them) where it reads Columbia 7 and Delaware Water Gap 11.  If it were the natural cut in the Kinatiny Mountain the difference between the two would be of 3 miles.

FYI, both Columbia and the Village of Delaware Water Gap are 4 miles apart.

Yep right here. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9291999,-74.9716601,3a,15y,303.51h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siCDiXfCXIKruaXnFfngcqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

While I was looking for it I passed mile marker 11.4 and this sign is about a tenth of a mile past that Columbia is 4.6 miles to the bridge which is exactly what they are referring to when they say Delaware Water Gap, the gap is the Delaware River.

[roadman65]

In Hackettstown there is a mileage sign on US 46 that lists Delaware Water Gap as 25 miles out prior to NJ 182. Yet in Vienna it’s 23 miles out on another sign.

The NJ 182 junction and Vienna are far more than 2 miles apart. So one must be for the natural phenomenon and the other for the town.

[tmoore952]

I just think that an actual city should be used more often when you can use one. One control city I hate is Delaware Water Gap on I-80 in PA.

To be clear, Delaware Water Gap is the name of a actual small town, it's the last town in PA as you go east. PA 611 goes through it. When you are there you are looking down at the I-80 bridge over the Delaware River.

The juxtaposition of the two sentences in what I quoted above --- makes me unsure if DWG is being viewed here as "just" a natural feature (which it also is) and not also a town, or if the problem is that it is not a big city (true). Or is the problem really that the control city isn't "New York City" to tie into a lot of other posts I have seen in these forums.

They are obviously not referring to the small town on the river when they use that they are referring to the actual water gap where I-80 goes into New Jersey.

Not according to the mileage sign ( yes there is one on I-80 near Hope, as NJ don’t like usually don’t like to erect them) where it reads Columbia 7 and Delaware Water Gap 11.  If it were the natural cut in the Kinatiny Mountain the difference between the two would be of 3 miles.

FYI, both Columbia and the Village of Delaware Water Gap are 4 miles apart.

Yep right here. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9291999,-74.9716601,3a,15y,303.51h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siCDiXfCXIKruaXnFfngcqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

While I was looking for it I passed mile marker 11.4 and this sign is about a tenth of a mile past that Columbia is 4.6 miles to the bridge which is exactly what they are referring to when they say Delaware Water Gap, the gap is the Delaware River.

Well I just got finished saying in my earlier post that the town of Delaware Water Gap is right above where the bridge goes into NJ (when coming from PA side) or into PA (when coming from NJ side). They are close enough that I would bet you could get from one to the other and still be within the mileage stated by the sign.

How can you say "they are obviously...." or "they are not obviously" referring to the town or the "natural feature"? It isn't obvious (or not obvious) to me at all, given how close these two locations are. It seems a little ambiguous without some official documentation.

Another thing that bothers me here is that "Delaware Water Gap" as signed in NJ on I-80 might be for the bridge and/or the natural feature (or maybe the parking area along I-80 that I used to park at to start hikes), and may not necessarily be the same as "Delaware Water Gap" as signed in PA on I-80, which could be for either the town or the bridge (I doubt it is for anything in NJ). There have been tons of discussions here about how PA signs "in-state" for control locations on I-80, and there IS a town there. Why would NJ sign for a small PA town? (to be honest with you, I thought about this when I would drive up there in the 1980s (from Trenton area) to hike and/or visit my then-girlfriend who went to East Stroudsburg University).

Also, in the post I responded to, it says "One control city I hate is Delaware Water Gap on I-80 in PA". So I talked about this from a PA perspective. And then the mileage sign that is put up is from the NJ side. See the preceding paragraph.

[kphoger]

They are obviously not referring to the small town on the river when they use that they are referring to the actual water gap where I-80 goes into New Jersey.

It isn't obvious (or not obvious) to me at all, given how close these two locations are. It seems a little ambiguous without some official documentation.

It's bad either way.  Should be Stroudsburg.  In Stroudsburg, it should just be NYC.  Drop the Gap entirely.

[mgk920]

They are obviously not referring to the small town on the river when they use that they are referring to the actual water gap where I-80 goes into New Jersey.

It isn't obvious (or not obvious) to me at all, given how close these two locations are. It seems a little ambiguous without some official documentation.

It's bad either way.  Should be Stroudsburg.  In Stroudsburg, it should just be NYC.  Drop the Gap entirely.

I've mentioned in here many times before that during a roadtrip a couple of decades ago I was totally flummoxed by New jersey's use of 'Del Water Gap' as the control for WB I-80.  At the time, I thought that a much better control would be 'Pennsylvania'.

Mike

[Flint1979]

They are obviously not referring to the small town on the river when they use that they are referring to the actual water gap where I-80 goes into New Jersey.

It isn't obvious (or not obvious) to me at all, given how close these two locations are. It seems a little ambiguous without some official documentation.

It's bad either way.  Should be Stroudsburg.  In Stroudsburg, it should just be NYC.  Drop the Gap entirely.

Exactly I agree with this 100%. Stroudsburg is right there and NYC is about an hour and a half away away so that makes sense. Stroudsburg is better than some control cities PA uses. IMO it should be Stroudsburg and Sharon throughout the state, they don't have any cities along I-80 in between worthy of control city status. After Stroudsburg like you said should be NYC.

And to be a bit off subject and not really directed at you but what's with the Begin I-95 signs at the end of I-80 in New Jersey? I-95 doesn't begin there. Should just be an I-80 ends sign and signs to north and south I-95.

[Flint1979]

They are obviously not referring to the small town on the river when they use that they are referring to the actual water gap where I-80 goes into New Jersey.

It isn't obvious (or not obvious) to me at all, given how close these two locations are. It seems a little ambiguous without some official documentation.

It's bad either way.  Should be Stroudsburg.  In Stroudsburg, it should just be NYC.  Drop the Gap entirely.

I've mentioned in here many times before that during a roadtrip a couple of decades ago I was totally flummoxed by New jersey's use of 'Del Water Gap' as the control for WB I-80.  At the time, I thought that a much better control would be 'Pennsylvania'.

Mike

In New Jersey I think it should be Stroudsburg, PA and New York City for I-80.

[tmoore952]

And to be a bit off subject and not really directed at you but what's with the Begin I-95 signs at the end of I-80 in New Jersey? I-95 doesn't begin there. Should just be an I-80 ends sign and signs to north and south I-95.

I always viewed this as a clunky (or maybe sign-space effective?) way to say to the eastbound driver that you are now on I-95 and no longer on I-80.
Perhaps also it is worded that way to avoid some directional confusion since you change from "I-80 East" to "I-95 North" without turning your steering wheel. I know us road geeks know the difference.

Thought I recently saw a similar clunkily worded Chicago-area sign in one of the sign threads (sign referenced I-80 and I-294).

[roadman65]

There is a mileage sign now listing Stroudsburg as the primary control on the I-80 Westbound Express Lanes just after they split off of I-95 SB.  So it looks like some engineer thought that signing the Gap has no merit like some of you all think so.

I believe it’s a NJTA install and since the Turnpike has been installing signs with mileages on them, they seem to use larger cities over small places.  Plus NJDOT, if they do use them on freeways, uses townships or boroughs along the way just as they do with off freeway routes.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/mt7zhLNMMAnAmVcG6

[tmoore952]

As a relatively new poster here, I am surprised at the focus on control cities.

It has never bothered me, for instance, that PA signs "in-state" control locations on I-80 eastbound rather than New York City, or Illinois signs Memphis for I-57 southbound, or I-70 eastbound is signed for Baltimore but doesn't actually get there (at least for that there are reasons), wheras it seems to REALLY bother others.

But then, I have spent enough hours over many years looking at maps, and have an internal knowledge of what roads generally go where (at least for interstates and US routes, and state routes for my state, and the parts of other states that are near me), such that I don't really look at the control cities/locations (and haven't for several decades) --- I just need to know what direction such-and-such a ramp is taking. And I have always looked at a map before leaving on a trip so that I would know what directions I need to go on what roads.

The smaller control cities for me have always been more like teaching points -- oh there is a town called DuBois, I wonder what is there --- rather than essential guideposts. But I am aware I am different than most that way (or at least I think I am). I really couldn't tell you how many people actually rely on those control location designations.

[The Nature Boy]

If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

What about I-96 Eastbound in Detroit, The choice of Canada as a control city at the junction of I-94?

For the U.P./St. Ignace comment, I could see Mackinac Bridge used, however, the U.P. has its own vibe.  Many residents probably don’t care if the bridge, Saginaw, Flint, or Detroit is signed as a control city since they probably do not travel much over the bridge and further south (especially since Saginaw is around 210 miles from the south approach to the bridge).  They would more than likely prefer control cities that are in the U.P. signed on I-75, or on other highways such as US 2, US 41, or M-28.

For the I-96/Canada comment, the reason Canada 🇨🇦 is signed is that I-96 leads to the Ambassador Bridge crossing.  Is Windsor supposed to be signed instead?  Could be but this is one of the main crossings for motorists not just to go to Windsor.  This is also a way to get to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal along with the Port Huron-Sarnia crossing or the I-81/Thousand Islands crossing.  These crossings as well as the crossings in Buffalo and Niagara Falls all have Canada 🇨🇦 as a control point as these are gateways to visit Canada or to “cut through” Canada above Lake Erie instead of traveling below in the USA.

After typing this, I read what Flint1979 commented.  I would still sign I-96 for Canada because once I-96 interchanges with I-75, the I-75 controls  are posted and motorists can decide on their options there.  Could “TO I-75” be added to the I-96 sign to give a motorist the USA option?  It more than likely would help, I believe.

I would sign Toronto, similar how to NY signs Montreal on the Adirondack Northway. You could even sign Toronto AND Montreal at that point honestly.

It just seems too far away to sign Toronto (and definitely too far for Montreal). I think Canada or Ontario is more appropriate, even if long distance traffic is headed to Toronto.

Detroit to Toronto is only 230 miles, which is only ~10 miles farther apart than Albany and Montreal. 230 miles seems the right distance to be helpful to long distance traffic.

Why would MDOT use Toronto when Ontario doesn't even use Toronto once you are in Canada until you get to London? London is the control city on 401 going east of Windsor. Also NYSDOT and MDOT are two different agencies in two different states.

Wouldn’t be the first time that two DOTs don’t align on control cities. I-80 in OH uses NYC as a control city, a practice that doesn’t carry into Pennsylvania. Michigan and Ontario’s DOTs not aligning would be par for the course.

[Flint1979]

If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

What about I-96 Eastbound in Detroit, The choice of Canada as a control city at the junction of I-94?

For the U.P./St. Ignace comment, I could see Mackinac Bridge used, however, the U.P. has its own vibe.  Many residents probably don’t care if the bridge, Saginaw, Flint, or Detroit is signed as a control city since they probably do not travel much over the bridge and further south (especially since Saginaw is around 210 miles from the south approach to the bridge).  They would more than likely prefer control cities that are in the U.P. signed on I-75, or on other highways such as US 2, US 41, or M-28.

For the I-96/Canada comment, the reason Canada 🇨🇦 is signed is that I-96 leads to the Ambassador Bridge crossing.  Is Windsor supposed to be signed instead?  Could be but this is one of the main crossings for motorists not just to go to Windsor.  This is also a way to get to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal along with the Port Huron-Sarnia crossing or the I-81/Thousand Islands crossing.  These crossings as well as the crossings in Buffalo and Niagara Falls all have Canada 🇨🇦 as a control point as these are gateways to visit Canada or to “cut through” Canada above Lake Erie instead of traveling below in the USA.

After typing this, I read what Flint1979 commented.  I would still sign I-96 for Canada because once I-96 interchanges with I-75, the I-75 controls  are posted and motorists can decide on their options there.  Could “TO I-75” be added to the I-96 sign to give a motorist the USA option?  It more than likely would help, I believe.

I would sign Toronto, similar how to NY signs Montreal on the Adirondack Northway. You could even sign Toronto AND Montreal at that point honestly.

It just seems too far away to sign Toronto (and definitely too far for Montreal). I think Canada or Ontario is more appropriate, even if long distance traffic is headed to Toronto.

Detroit to Toronto is only 230 miles, which is only ~10 miles farther apart than Albany and Montreal. 230 miles seems the right distance to be helpful to long distance traffic.

Why would MDOT use Toronto when Ontario doesn't even use Toronto once you are in Canada until you get to London? London is the control city on 401 going east of Windsor. Also NYSDOT and MDOT are two different agencies in two different states.

Wouldn’t be the first time that two DOTs don’t align on control cities. I-80 in OH uses NYC as a control city, a practice that doesn’t carry into Pennsylvania. Michigan and Ontario’s DOTs not aligning would be par for the course.

Of course it doesn't carry into Pennsylvania because Pennsylvania chooses small cities to be control cities along I-80. I agree that the control city there should be New York City and the Youngstown, OH going west. They shouldn't be using any PA cities that is just dumb. Michigan does a good job of choosing control cities so why would we want to change that? Putting Toronto on I-96 is misleading at it's finest. If anything Toledo should be the control city by that point and Ontario is in another country as well. The control city there really is the bridge even though at the interchange it just says Canada.

[Ted$8roadFan]

If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

What about I-96 Eastbound in Detroit, The choice of Canada as a control city at the junction of I-94?

For the U.P./St. Ignace comment, I could see Mackinac Bridge used, however, the U.P. has its own vibe.  Many residents probably don’t care if the bridge, Saginaw, Flint, or Detroit is signed as a control city since they probably do not travel much over the bridge and further south (especially since Saginaw is around 210 miles from the south approach to the bridge).  They would more than likely prefer control cities that are in the U.P. signed on I-75, or on other highways such as US 2, US 41, or M-28.

For the I-96/Canada comment, the reason Canada 🇨🇦 is signed is that I-96 leads to the Ambassador Bridge crossing.  Is Windsor supposed to be signed instead?  Could be but this is one of the main crossings for motorists not just to go to Windsor.  This is also a way to get to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal along with the Port Huron-Sarnia crossing or the I-81/Thousand Islands crossing.  These crossings as well as the crossings in Buffalo and Niagara Falls all have Canada 🇨🇦 as a control point as these are gateways to visit Canada or to “cut through” Canada above Lake Erie instead of traveling below in the USA.

After typing this, I read what Flint1979 commented.  I would still sign I-96 for Canada because once I-96 interchanges with I-75, the I-75 controls  are posted and motorists can decide on their options there.  Could “TO I-75” be added to the I-96 sign to give a motorist the USA option?  It more than likely would help, I believe.

I would sign Toronto, similar how to NY signs Montreal on the Adirondack Northway. You could even sign Toronto AND Montreal at that point honestly.

It just seems too far away to sign Toronto (and definitely too far for Montreal). I think Canada or Ontario is more appropriate, even if long distance traffic is headed to Toronto.

Detroit to Toronto is only 230 miles, which is only ~10 miles farther apart than Albany and Montreal. 230 miles seems the right distance to be helpful to long distance traffic.

Why would MDOT use Toronto when Ontario doesn't even use Toronto once you are in Canada until you get to London? London is the control city on 401 going east of Windsor. Also NYSDOT and MDOT are two different agencies in two different states.

Wouldn’t be the first time that two DOTs don’t align on control cities. I-80 in OH uses NYC as a control city, a practice that doesn’t carry into Pennsylvania. Michigan and Ontario’s DOTs not aligning would be par for the course.

Of course it doesn't carry into Pennsylvania because Pennsylvania chooses small cities to be control cities along I-80. I agree that the control city there should be New York City and the Youngstown, OH going west. They shouldn't be using any PA cities that is just dumb. Michigan does a good job of choosing control cities so why would we want to change that? Putting Toronto on I-96 is misleading at it's finest. If anything Toledo should be the control city by that point and Ontario is in another country as well. The control city there really is the bridge even though at the interchange it just says Canada.

In Buffalo, signs for the Peace Bridge list “Ft. Erie Can” as a control city.

[Flint1979]

If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

What about I-96 Eastbound in Detroit, The choice of Canada as a control city at the junction of I-94?

For the U.P./St. Ignace comment, I could see Mackinac Bridge used, however, the U.P. has its own vibe.  Many residents probably don’t care if the bridge, Saginaw, Flint, or Detroit is signed as a control city since they probably do not travel much over the bridge and further south (especially since Saginaw is around 210 miles from the south approach to the bridge).  They would more than likely prefer control cities that are in the U.P. signed on I-75, or on other highways such as US 2, US 41, or M-28.

For the I-96/Canada comment, the reason Canada is signed is that I-96 leads to the Ambassador Bridge crossing.  Is Windsor supposed to be signed instead?  Could be but this is one of the main crossings for motorists not just to go to Windsor.  This is also a way to get to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal along with the Port Huron-Sarnia crossing or the I-81/Thousand Islands crossing.  These crossings as well as the crossings in Buffalo and Niagara Falls all have Canada as a control point as these are gateways to visit Canada or to “cut through” Canada above Lake Erie instead of traveling below in the USA.

After typing this, I read what Flint1979 commented.  I would still sign I-96 for Canada because once I-96 interchanges with I-75, the I-75 controls  are posted and motorists can decide on their options there.  Could “TO I-75” be added to the I-96 sign to give a motorist the USA option?  It more than likely would help, I believe.

I would sign Toronto, similar how to NY signs Montreal on the Adirondack Northway. You could even sign Toronto AND Montreal at that point honestly.

It just seems too far away to sign Toronto (and definitely too far for Montreal). I think Canada or Ontario is more appropriate, even if long distance traffic is headed to Toronto.

Detroit to Toronto is only 230 miles, which is only ~10 miles farther apart than Albany and Montreal. 230 miles seems the right distance to be helpful to long distance traffic.

Why would MDOT use Toronto when Ontario doesn't even use Toronto once you are in Canada until you get to London? London is the control city on 401 going east of Windsor. Also NYSDOT and MDOT are two different agencies in two different states.

Wouldn’t be the first time that two DOTs don’t align on control cities. I-80 in OH uses NYC as a control city, a practice that doesn’t carry into Pennsylvania. Michigan and Ontario’s DOTs not aligning would be par for the course.

Of course it doesn't carry into Pennsylvania because Pennsylvania chooses small cities to be control cities along I-80. I agree that the control city there should be New York City and the Youngstown, OH going west. They shouldn't be using any PA cities that is just dumb. Michigan does a good job of choosing control cities so why would we want to change that? Putting Toronto on I-96 is misleading at it's finest. If anything Toledo should be the control city by that point and Ontario is in another country as well. The control city there really is the bridge even though at the interchange it just says Canada.

In Buffalo, signs for the Peace Bridge list “Ft. Erie Can” as a control city.

There is no rule against it.

[The Nature Boy]

If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

What about I-96 Eastbound in Detroit, The choice of Canada as a control city at the junction of I-94?

For the U.P./St. Ignace comment, I could see Mackinac Bridge used, however, the U.P. has its own vibe.  Many residents probably don’t care if the bridge, Saginaw, Flint, or Detroit is signed as a control city since they probably do not travel much over the bridge and further south (especially since Saginaw is around 210 miles from the south approach to the bridge).  They would more than likely prefer control cities that are in the U.P. signed on I-75, or on other highways such as US 2, US 41, or M-28.

For the I-96/Canada comment, the reason Canada 🇨🇦 is signed is that I-96 leads to the Ambassador Bridge crossing.  Is Windsor supposed to be signed instead?  Could be but this is one of the main crossings for motorists not just to go to Windsor.  This is also a way to get to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal along with the Port Huron-Sarnia crossing or the I-81/Thousand Islands crossing.  These crossings as well as the crossings in Buffalo and Niagara Falls all have Canada 🇨🇦 as a control point as these are gateways to visit Canada or to “cut through” Canada above Lake Erie instead of traveling below in the USA.

After typing this, I read what Flint1979 commented.  I would still sign I-96 for Canada because once I-96 interchanges with I-75, the I-75 controls  are posted and motorists can decide on their options there.  Could “TO I-75” be added to the I-96 sign to give a motorist the USA option?  It more than likely would help, I believe.

I would sign Toronto, similar how to NY signs Montreal on the Adirondack Northway. You could even sign Toronto AND Montreal at that point honestly.

It just seems too far away to sign Toronto (and definitely too far for Montreal). I think Canada or Ontario is more appropriate, even if long distance traffic is headed to Toronto.

Detroit to Toronto is only 230 miles, which is only ~10 miles farther apart than Albany and Montreal. 230 miles seems the right distance to be helpful to long distance traffic.

Why would MDOT use Toronto when Ontario doesn't even use Toronto once you are in Canada until you get to London? London is the control city on 401 going east of Windsor. Also NYSDOT and MDOT are two different agencies in two different states.

Wouldn’t be the first time that two DOTs don’t align on control cities. I-80 in OH uses NYC as a control city, a practice that doesn’t carry into Pennsylvania. Michigan and Ontario’s DOTs not aligning would be par for the course.

Of course it doesn't carry into Pennsylvania because Pennsylvania chooses small cities to be control cities along I-80. I agree that the control city there should be New York City and the Youngstown, OH going west. They shouldn't be using any PA cities that is just dumb. Michigan does a good job of choosing control cities so why would we want to change that? Putting Toronto on I-96 is misleading at it's finest. If anything Toledo should be the control city by that point and Ontario is in another country as well. The control city there really is the bridge even though at the interchange it just says Canada.

I disagree.

MDOT already signs Chicago as the I-94 West control city at the interchange with I-69 so there is a precedent at that very intersection for a long distance control city. Also "Bridge to Canada" is imprecise for people coming at the I-69/I-94 interchange from eastbound I-94 (which uses Port Huron as a control city, which is also where a "bridge to Canada" is located). Knowing WHERE in Canada you would end up is more helpful to the traveler.

Michigan does a better job than most with control cities, but I'm not a fan of state or country control cities. Canada being another country is semantics here, people still deserve to know where they're going and control cities are designed to help facilitate that process. I-69 and I-94 both directly lead to Canada. 

My mistake in my initial analysis was using NYSDOT to persuade you regarding signing Toronto in Detroit. I haven't been to Detroit in years so I forgot that Chicago was signed that far east. Chicago is farther from Detroit than Toronto. I don't really care if you sign Toronto (Windsor or London would do the trick, though Windsor is too close to be helpful to long distance travelers) but acting like it's against MDOT protocol to sign a long distance city in another jurisdiction is a bit misleading. I just think the signage could be improved and would be more helpful if it were more specific.

There's also an argument for signing "Buffalo NY" for I-96 eastbound as well. Maybe "London ON" with a secondary control city of "Buffalo NY" would be better than Toronto?

[Flint1979]

If Michigan has got to have one then I choose St. Ignace for SB I-75 in the U.P., why not just use Mackinac Bridge like NB I-75 in the lower peninsula? St. Ignace is pretty well known as the north end of the bridge though. But this is for Interstate's and Michigan does a pretty good job of choosing control cities on Interstate's and pretty much overall on the other systems of highways.

What about I-96 Eastbound in Detroit, The choice of Canada as a control city at the junction of I-94?

For the U.P./St. Ignace comment, I could see Mackinac Bridge used, however, the U.P. has its own vibe.  Many residents probably don’t care if the bridge, Saginaw, Flint, or Detroit is signed as a control city since they probably do not travel much over the bridge and further south (especially since Saginaw is around 210 miles from the south approach to the bridge).  They would more than likely prefer control cities that are in the U.P. signed on I-75, or on other highways such as US 2, US 41, or M-28.

For the I-96/Canada comment, the reason Canada 🇨🇦 is signed is that I-96 leads to the Ambassador Bridge crossing.  Is Windsor supposed to be signed instead?  Could be but this is one of the main crossings for motorists not just to go to Windsor.  This is also a way to get to Toronto, Ottawa, or Montreal along with the Port Huron-Sarnia crossing or the I-81/Thousand Islands crossing.  These crossings as well as the crossings in Buffalo and Niagara Falls all have Canada 🇨🇦 as a control point as these are gateways to visit Canada or to “cut through” Canada above Lake Erie instead of traveling below in the USA.

After typing this, I read what Flint1979 commented.  I would still sign I-96 for Canada because once I-96 interchanges with I-75, the I-75 controls  are posted and motorists can decide on their options there.  Could “TO I-75” be added to the I-96 sign to give a motorist the USA option?  It more than likely would help, I believe.

I would sign Toronto, similar how to NY signs Montreal on the Adirondack Northway. You could even sign Toronto AND Montreal at that point honestly.

It just seems too far away to sign Toronto (and definitely too far for Montreal). I think Canada or Ontario is more appropriate, even if long distance traffic is headed to Toronto.

Detroit to Toronto is only 230 miles, which is only ~10 miles farther apart than Albany and Montreal. 230 miles seems the right distance to be helpful to long distance traffic.

Why would MDOT use Toronto when Ontario doesn't even use Toronto once you are in Canada until you get to London? London is the control city on 401 going east of Windsor. Also NYSDOT and MDOT are two different agencies in two different states.

Wouldn’t be the first time that two DOTs don’t align on control cities. I-80 in OH uses NYC as a control city, a practice that doesn’t carry into Pennsylvania. Michigan and Ontario’s DOTs not aligning would be par for the course.

Of course it doesn't carry into Pennsylvania because Pennsylvania chooses small cities to be control cities along I-80. I agree that the control city there should be New York City and the Youngstown, OH going west. They shouldn't be using any PA cities that is just dumb. Michigan does a good job of choosing control cities so why would we want to change that? Putting Toronto on I-96 is misleading at it's finest. If anything Toledo should be the control city by that point and Ontario is in another country as well. The control city there really is the bridge even though at the interchange it just says Canada.

I disagree.

MDOT already signs Chicago as the I-94 West control city at the interchange with I-69 so there is a precedent at that very intersection for a long distance control city. Also "Bridge to Canada" is imprecise for people coming at the I-69/I-94 interchange from eastbound I-94 (which uses Port Huron as a control city, which is also where a "bridge to Canada" is located). Knowing WHERE in Canada you would end up is more helpful to the traveler.

Michigan does a better job than most with control cities, but I'm not a fan of state or country control cities. Canada being another country is semantics here, people still deserve to know where they're going and control cities are designed to help facilitate that process. I-69 and I-94 both directly lead to Canada. 

My mistake in my initial analysis was using NYSDOT to persuade you regarding signing Toronto in Detroit. I haven't been to Detroit in years so I forgot that Chicago was signed that far east. Chicago is farther from Detroit than Toronto. I don't really care if you sign Toronto (Windsor or London would do the trick, though Windsor is too close to be helpful to long distance travelers) but acting like it's against MDOT protocol to sign a long distance city in another jurisdiction is a bit misleading. I just think the signage could be improved and would be more helpful if it were more specific.

There's also an argument for signing "Buffalo NY" for I-96 eastbound as well. Maybe "London ON" with a secondary control city of "Buffalo NY" would be better than Toronto?

MDOT starts using Chicago as a control city on WB I-94 in Detroit and what's the problem with that one? Chicago is the third largest city in the United States and is within the same country. Using Bridge to Canada in Detroit which is what they do isn't going to confuse someone between the Ambassador Bridge and the Blue Water Bridge. Port Huron is 60 miles from Detroit no one is confusing the bridges. Using Canada at that point isn't confusing anyone they are telling you that I-96 takes you to the bridge. Detroit being closer to Toronto has nothing to do with MDOT choosing Chicago as the control city, it's the primary control city and isn't used at every interchange. None of the Canada cities you mentioned as well as Buffalo, NY make any sense as a control city in Michigan. Canada is fine here but it really should be Toledo as I-96 empties into I-75 SB. If I was going WB on I-94 I would use EB I-96 at exit 213 to get to SB I-75 instead of taking the SB I-75 exit at exit 216, that bypasses downtown and the 25 mph curve where I-75 exits to itself.

[Flint1979]

On I-94 the control cities for the I-75 exit should be Flint and DOWNTOWN. I-96 should be Lansing and Toledo. At the Lodge they should be DOWNTOWN and Southfield which is what they are.

[roadman65]

Talking about Michigan treating all of Canada as the same. PennDOT does that here with New Jersey.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/gQmZRTabHdY97nDRA
Funny thing is when I-78 first opened in 1989 or 1990, the pull through used Allentown instead of New Jersey. They should have kept that or just use New York City being only 80 miles out from the big global empire.

[Flint1979]

Talking about Michigan treating all of Canada as the same. PennDOT does that here with New Jersey.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/gQmZRTabHdY97nDRA
Funny thing is when I-78 first opened in 1989 or 1990, the pull through used Allentown instead of New Jersey. They should have kept that or just use New York City being only 80 miles out from the big global empire.

It's about 2 miles to the border from the Jeffries/Ford interchange. People know that Detroit is on the International border so no one is getting confused as to what bridge or to what part of Canada they are headed to.

And once you get on the Jeffries you can see the bridge, https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3462079,-83.096888,3a,15y,151.33h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFkoFL1VHeDl-FR1FwhFr1Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DFkoFL1VHeDl-FR1FwhFr1Q%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D162.8896%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[jp the roadgeek]

New future contender for CT: East Hartford for I-384 west.  Yes, it's accurate, but is traffic on I-384 specifically headed there and not the current control of Hartford?  Of course (and a lot more than eastbound traffic headed for Providence, which I-384 gets nowhere near, but I digress).

[Flint1979]

So does anyone want to continue to think that Canada should be the control city on the Ford going to the EB Jeffries? Once you get on you have this collection of signs. So can anyone actually sit here and say that Canada should be the control city over Toledo?

I-75 North - control city is Flint.
M-10 - control city is DOWNTOWN.
I-75 South with a I-96 shield - control city is Toledo.
Exit 191 MLK Jr Blvd. US-12 Michigan Ave.

There aren't anymore signs saying Canada and the exit for the bridge is after you have already got on I-75. The control city should be Toledo. I have no idea why anyone would disagree with that.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3433152,-83.0951574,3a,53y,142.24h,100.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sScq6N6i0HWOk1VNBwHeYpA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3364055,-83.0908862,3a,75y,153.46h,104.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sczU7IuWqwjBk9jTpBKcwqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[roadman65]

So does anyone want to continue to think that Canada should be the control city on the Ford going to the EB Jeffries? Once you get on you have this collection of signs. So can anyone actually sit here and say that Canada should be the control city over Toledo?

I-75 North - control city is Flint.
M-10 - control city is DOWNTOWN.
I-75 South with a I-96 shield - control city is Toledo.
Exit 191 MLK Jr Blvd. US-12 Michigan Ave.

There aren't anymore signs saying Canada and the exit for the bridge is after you have already got on I-75. The control city should be Toledo. I have no idea why anyone would disagree with that.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3433152,-83.0951574,3a,53y,142.24h,100.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sScq6N6i0HWOk1VNBwHeYpA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3364055,-83.0908862,3a,75y,153.46h,104.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sczU7IuWqwjBk9jTpBKcwqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

I-75 South should have two control cities: Canada and Toledo.

[Flint1979]

And another thing, I don't see anything wrong with using countries or states for control cities. A little common sense comes into play here, when a state is used like in the Chicago area with Indiana and Wisconsin being used as control cities why would anyone think that they mean anything other than where that highway enters the state at? Your on I-94 heading to Indiana and you have trouble figuring out what they mean by Indiana, very obviously it's where I-94 enters Indiana at is where they are leading you. It makes sense.

But as in the case with Canada being used for a control city on the Jeffries Freeway in Detroit it shouldn't be used, there are no signs telling you which highway to stay on or get on to get to Canada. Like I said in my last post, the control cities are Flint, DOWNTOWN and Toledo. Take your pick, not Canada.

[Flint1979]

So does anyone want to continue to think that Canada should be the control city on the Ford going to the EB Jeffries? Once you get on you have this collection of signs. So can anyone actually sit here and say that Canada should be the control city over Toledo?

I-75 North - control city is Flint.
M-10 - control city is DOWNTOWN.
I-75 South with a I-96 shield - control city is Toledo.
Exit 191 MLK Jr Blvd. US-12 Michigan Ave.

There aren't anymore signs saying Canada and the exit for the bridge is after you have already got on I-75. The control city should be Toledo. I have no idea why anyone would disagree with that.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3433152,-83.0951574,3a,53y,142.24h,100.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sScq6N6i0HWOk1VNBwHeYpA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3364055,-83.0908862,3a,75y,153.46h,104.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sczU7IuWqwjBk9jTpBKcwqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

I-75 South should have two control cities: Canada and Toledo.

I-75 South should not have Canada as a control city, it doesn't take you there, the bridge does.