non-operational traffic light

[6a]

Ugh.  Damn this ice to hell...I got so tired of behaving that I took a picture of it

Indianola Ave. in Clintonville?

That was High and something, but yeah it was in Clintonville.

[hm insulators]

Ugh.  Damn this ice to hell...I got so tired of behaving that I took a picture of it

I like the old street light in the background.  I wonder how old it is??

That is a neat old "acorn" style street lamp. Those were common into the 1960s. In my early years living in Van Nuys (I lived there from 1986 to 2004), I used to see them scattered around the San Fernando Valley. I think a few of them still exist.

[roadman65]

I do not know if this counts, but on the Osceola Parkway in Kissimmee, FL there are two traffic lights at both of the ramps  for FL 417 that are not operational!  When the FL 417 was first opened, the lights were operational.  Then two months later  after 417 opened the county did a study and decided that there is not enough traffic to warrant a signal at this intersection, so they turned them onto flash mode and erected stop signs on the 417 ramps.  Since then they have been flashing. Maybe one day if the traffic increases or if a fatal accident occurs, then will see these signals back in action.

[roadman65]

Flashing is not non-operational...

Then the West NASA Causeway in Titusville, FL counts as the drawspan signals there have been covered over with plastic during the bridge rehabilation.  Right now the WB span is under construction and the EB span is two ways and for some reason the signal heads are covered over spite that this bridge is active.

[US71]

There was a signal near my place that went dark last week after the storms. Most drivers treated it as a 4-Way Stop. A few just flew right thru without stopping.  Let me find my photos and I'll post a snap.

[1995hoo]

During several of the snowstorms over the past year or two when there have been power issues there have been dark traffic lights around here. One of the local radio stations, WTOP, ran a report talking about how the law in Virginia and DC is the common "treat it as a four-way-stop" but that in Maryland that law didn't exist. Of course the reporters, and the traffic reporters, and even the local governments in Maryland, asked everyone to treat them as four-way-stops, but people in all three jurisdictions routinely ignore this and just drive on through, and they blast the horn at anyone else who does the same. (Seems kind of hypocritical to me: If you think you don't have to yield to anyone, what makes you think anyone else has to yield to you?) Apparently a bill is introduced in Maryland's General Assembly each year to require a four-way-stop but it hasn't passed. I think it would be interesting if someone hit by a non-stopper were to file a civil lawsuit based on negligence–regardless of whether the law requires a four-way-stop, would a jury find that a reasonable man approaching an inoperative traffic light with other traffic around would have stopped? I know if I were on a jury I'd certainly vote that way if there were other traffic around (i.e., if it were 2 AM and the light was dark, I might say it's reasonable to slow down and yield, whereas if it's rush hour, you bet I think you need to stop).

What I worry about at dark lights are not so much the people on the other road who blast through without stopping. I worry more about whether the guy behind me is prepared for me to stop. I suppose it's partly paranoia from being rear-ended multiple times over the years (once when I was last on line at a light that had just turned green....cars in front of me hadn't gone yet and this fool woman just drove into the back of me because all she saw was the green light).

I think that with the people who barrel through at full speed it's irrelevant what the law is–they're going to say "me first" regardless. They're the same people who refuse to turn on their headlights in the rain or the snow or to signal when changing lanes and who try to drive down the turn lane and then shove over to the right to jump the queue at a traffic light.

[andytom]

During several of the snowstorms over the past year or two when there have been power issues there have been dark traffic lights around here. One of the local radio stations, WTOP, ran a report talking about how the law in Virginia and DC is the common "treat it as a four-way-stop" but that in Maryland that law didn't exist.

Does Maryland have a law concerning operation of uncontrolled intersections?  If so, that becomes the default with non-functional signals and no '4-way-stop' law.

--Andy

[1995hoo]

During several of the snowstorms over the past year or two when there have been power issues there have been dark traffic lights around here. One of the local radio stations, WTOP, ran a report talking about how the law in Virginia and DC is the common "treat it as a four-way-stop" but that in Maryland that law didn't exist.

Does Maryland have a law concerning operation of uncontrolled intersections?  If so, that becomes the default with non-functional signals and no '4-way-stop' law.

--Andy

I don't know. Don't recall whether they mentioned that.

[CL]

...hey look, non-operational traffic lights!

[mgk920]

I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark.  Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.

There, instead of setting the signals to flashing red/yellow during low traffic periods, they simply turn them OFF and let the signs control things.

Mike

[Alps]

I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark.  Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.

There, instead of setting the signals to flashing red/yellow during low traffic periods, they simply turn them OFF and let the signs control things.

Mike

No, because traffic control devices may not conflict with each other. You can't display a stop sign and a red light - because then what's to prevent traffic from just continuing? "Officer, the legal definition of a stop sign allows me to proceed after checking traffic."

[andytom]

I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark.  Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.

This would be a great idea.  There are times, particularly on rainy nights, when I stop at an intersection because I know there is a signal there but I can't see the dark signal heads.  People who don't pass through the intersection often just fly right through.  These signs would show up in the head lights.  The main problem would be getting people to recognize that the sign is not effective when the signal is working.

--Andy

[roadfro]

I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark.  Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.

There, instead of setting the signals to flashing red/yellow during low traffic periods, they simply turn them OFF and let the signs control things.

The MUTCD prohibits this, for eliminating the chance of conflicting messages between traffic controls--for example, a recent edition (2009?) clarifies that a stop sign cannot be used on a driveway that meets a signalized intersection. There are allowances for folding stop/yield signs that can be used at signalized intersections for unique conditions.

In order to follow the European model in the US, they'd probably have to rely on blank-out stop or yield signs. At that point, it's just less expensive to put the signal in red-yellow flash than add blank-outs to the installation.

[US71]

I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark.  Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.

Missouri has Stop signs on many of their traffic signal poles, but they have to manually "activated" since they are normally folded and locked.  I've seen a few intersections (don't remember where off-hand) that say the intersection is a 4-Way Stop if the signals aren't working.

[NE2]

It seems like they could use electromagnets to keep them folded.

[Zmapper]

I like that idea NE2. So in the event of a power outage the sign swings out automatically with the assistance of a spring.

[KEK Inc.]

It seems like they could use electromagnets to keep them folded.

I had this idea too.  You wouldn't need a significant amount of current either.

[roadman65]

You know I encountered a non operative signal on Orange Blossom Trail in Orlando once and obeyed the law and stopped!  I was the only one who did while those around me kept going.  Those on the side road had no way of going out to cross OBT and could have used those vehicles to stop.  Anyway, my following the law was useless, even when these side street drivers had a chance to pull out they did not.  They were afraid or thought the same way as most others do and that the main drag always has the right away.

They made all kinds of stuff after the 04 hurricanes on all radio and news programs.  Talking about what was originally in this forum was a main topic as many fail to listen to the rules.  Yet, I see in some places where those lights flash yellow where drivers come and treat it as a four way stop and think that is what they meant after the hurricanes.  Tyler McKenzie a DJ on Z88 in Orlando got a call from someone complaining about people going though blinking yellow lights as if this pesonr thought that a blinking light meant non-operative.  Tyler was agreeing with the caller and saying how ignorant these motorists are for not treating the non op light that the caller was reffering to, when she and the caller were both the ones who did not know what the law meant.

[mgk920]

I've been wondering for a number of years now if North America should start a transition towards the European model where, especially in Germany, permanent signs mounted on the signal standards govern whenever the signals are dark.  Each signal standard includes a 'STOP', 'YIELD' or, and this sign does not (yet) exist in NA, a 'YOU HAVE PRIORITY' sign.

There, instead of setting the signals to flashing red/yellow during low traffic periods, they simply turn them OFF and let the signs control things.

The MUTCD prohibits this, for eliminating the chance of conflicting messages between traffic controls--for example, a recent edition (2009?) clarifies that a stop sign cannot be used on a driveway that meets a signalized intersection. There are allowances for folding stop/yield signs that can be used at signalized intersections for unique conditions.

In order to follow the European model in the US, they'd probably have to rely on blank-out stop or yield signs. At that point, it's just less expensive to put the signal in red-yellow flash than add blank-outs to the installation.

And then you run into the reality that we have today where (a) people are increasingly ignoring the rule that a dark signal = a STOP sign and (b) people who are unfamiliar with the road being 'surprised' by a dark signal.  I do know that the MUTCD now prohibits my above mentioned European solution to this, but it can always be amended.

Mike

[roadman65]

You know that Kenilworth, NJ banked on people's ignorance to allow a signal in their community to work part time.  At the intersection of CR 509 and Market Street the old one headed signal that was there up until Union County replaced all of the signals on CR 509 in Kenilworth was part time during the week.  When the signal did not need to be operational, it was turned completely off!  It was not flashing, but completely OUT!  It was a three way intersection where Market ended at CR 509, so Market did not need a Stop sign.  So by common sense ruling, they did stop.  On the county road, people are not stopping anyway, so they counted on this factor.

Now there is a fully operational signal there and upgraded with detector hoops to activate the signal when needed.  This ceases the need to have a part time signal thanks to modern technoligy.   I guess it was allowed, cause even in New Jersey back in earlier times allowed one way streets to the left to have two green arrows to denote which way you can go resulting in it being green to the left on a one way to the left.  This made confusion cause now a green left arrow means its fully protected from the on coming traffic and when left turn signals became popular NJ was forced to abandoned the arrows for ball greens instead.  Times have changed and maybe that was why Kenilworth was allowed to do this.

[US71]

It seems like they could use electromagnets to keep them folded.

I had this idea too.  You wouldn't need a significant amount of current either.

I've had a similar thought. Something like electromagnets might work if there was a relatively inexpensive way to set it up.

[formulanone]

Yeah, after a hurricane, things get a little hairy (especially at night) in terms of missing or broken signals. If the intersection is buy enough, usually the yield to the right rule takes effect. Some signals default to yellow/red flashing, but since most people never see that type of traffic control device in urban areas, some people treat them also as 4-way stops (which can be infuriating).

Ironically, at least two rather busy Intersections near my house seem to function better (in terms of total waiting time to get through the intersection, also based on the assumption that most people follow the rules in time) seemed to operate more smoothly as 4-way, unpatrolled stops rather than the usual logjam created by red lights. Never would have imagined that...

[mgk920]

Yeah, after a hurricane, things get a little hairy (especially at night) in terms of missing or broken signals. If the intersection is buy enough, usually the yield to the right rule takes effect. Some signals default to yellow/red flashing, but since most people never see that type of traffic control device in urban areas, some people treat them also as 4-way stops (which can be infuriating).

Ironically, at least two rather busy Intersections near my house seem to function better (in terms of total waiting time to get through the intersection, also based on the assumption that most people follow the rules in time) seemed to operate more smoothly as 4-way, unpatrolled stops rather than the usual logjam created by red lights. Never would have imagined that...

I think that's why roundabouts work so amazingly well once the locals get used to them.  None of that annoying stopping when there is no need to.

Mike

[myosh_tino]

I think that's why roundabouts work so amazingly well once the locals get used to them.  None of that annoying stopping when there is no need to.

That's not how my town uses roundabouts.  Where I live, the city has installed a few roundabouts in residential neighborhoods as a means of slowing down traffic.  The intersection is governed by a 4-way stop so one must stop before navigating the roundabout.

If I'm not mistaken, the on and off ramps at the I-80/CA-89 interchange in Truckee utilize roundabouts and in this case, only YIELD signs are posted so traffic exiting and entering I-80 can do so without stopping if traffic is light.

[twinsfan87]

^^ Those are likely "traffic calming islands" instead of roundabouts. They serve to slow traffic down instead of providing an operational benefit. I know Madison, Wisconsin uses traffic calming islands extensively in their residential areas... and they drive me nuts!

Wisconsin also installs the folded up stop signs for use when the signal is out, but the signs must also be manually opened.