A New Plan for Tearing Down I-345

[skluth]

I realize tearing down any freeway is a sensitive subject. It sometimes makes sense because they're relatively useless stubs like the Park Freeway in Milwaukee or the east end of the Gardner Freeway in Toronto. I don't think tearing down I-345 falls under that category and I've a feeling several here feel the same way. Note: There are a few threads on I-345 (like here, and here, and here) but they are either a different focus or old.

I don't have a dog in this fight since I don't live in Texas. I follow some urbanist blogs because of my mass transit interests. Sometimes they have good ideas and sometimes it's like reading the anti-FritzOwl. This seems to me the latter, especially the belief that 16K-18K vehicles per hour will magically use surface streets through the area like nothing changed.

[silverback1065]

Txdot should just route i-45 up this road and end this debate.

Pixel 5

[Bobby5280]

If they remove the unsigned I-345 section it will result in far worse traffic snarls through the I-35E/I-30 "mix-master" (aka the Horseshoe). Northwest Expressway traffic will be forced onto the short Woodall Rodgers Freeway and then onto I-35E & I-30 just to get back around to I-45.

North Central freeway traffic isn't just going to drive through a dozen blocks worth of traffic lights along a newly "beautified" surface street just to get to I-45. And even if the freeway traffic did take the new surface street the resulting traffic gridlock would be every bit as dangerous to pedestrians and bicyclists as any other real world factor one could imagine. Over the long term people would do more to avoid the downtown Dallas area in general. They'll really do that in earnest if powers that be make it punitive to drive a vehicle into the downtown area. Downtown Dallas has no monopoly on places to do business, eat out or have fun. There are plenty of other zones all over the metroplex that can provide the same thing.

[bwana39]

I realize tearing down any freeway is a sensitive subject. It sometimes makes sense because they're relatively useless stubs like the Park Freeway in Milwaukee or the east end of the Gardner Freeway in Toronto. I don't think tearing down I-345 falls under that category and I've a feeling several here feel the same way. Note: There are a few threads on I-345 (like here, and here, and here) but they are either a different focus or old.

I don't have a dog in this fight since I don't live in Texas. I follow some urbanist blogs because of my mass transit interests. Sometimes they have good ideas and sometimes it's like reading the anti-FritzOwl. This seems to me the latter, especially the belief that 16K-18K vehicles per hour will magically use surface streets through the area like nothing changed.

I think the planners on this idea ASSUME that the heavy truck traffic is going to evaporate.  While cars might make a 35 to 40 MPH on city streets if the lights go their way, heavy trucks don't have the leisure of fast acceleration or even more notably, near instantaneous stops. For the truck traffic, the speed will be more like 20-25 mph. That also means that most of the other traffic on the path will also be at 25 mph.   How close are the traffic signals going to be? The answer is too close to even have the automobile traffic at cruising speeds (even the mentioned 40MPH).

Like I have said before elsewhere. They need to get US-75 completed to US-69 and extend I-45 to at least that point. It would cement the idea that a through freeway is necessary.  SS-366 (Woodall Rogers Freeway) cannot be expanded. They cannot hope to do what is proposed and probably will be done in Houston (open up a side of downtown).  There is not the room on all three of the other sides. PERIOD.  While I may disagree with the downtown reconfiguration in Houston, it is feasible.  The idea these folk in Dallas are proposing is ridiculous.

Txdot should just route i-45 up this road and end this debate.

Pixel 5

[sprjus4]

Yet another boondoggle 

[In_Correct]

relatively useless stubs

No such thing.

I drive The Metroplex often on both Boulevards and Interstates and neither are good enough. They badly need Interchanges

https://i.imgur.com/XBAJ74O.jpg

and Continuous One Way Pair Frontage Roads With Bridges Over Obstacles ... nearby Highways ... U.S. ... State ... F.M. ... must be upgraded also.

Truckers must provide the Necessary Backlash against every Road Diet Project including but not limited to The Unfinished Corridor.

Also in Oklahoma The Governor has said Local Economies This And Local Economies That so he is going to put an end to any Upgrades in Oklahoma.

Boulevards wear faster than Interstates.

[texaskdog]

I live in a city (Austin) that scrapped a plan 35 years ago because they said if you don't build it they won't come.  Now they want to tear out freeways.  Good luck with that.

[Henry]

There are some ideas with merit (such as the Park East Freeway in Milwaukee and the planned I-375 downgrade in Detroit), and then there are some moronic ones, which I-345 falls under. Come on, the link between I-45 and the Central Expressway is already there, so why just let it be?

At the very least, I'd just bury the freeway underground (like they're doing in Denver with I-70) and call it a day.

[Plutonic Panda]

How likely is it this road is removed? From what I know, I don't think the urbanist get their way. Though I am a tad concerned Dallas was quick to approve the D2 subway without considering a lowered I-345.

[bwana39]

How likely is it this road is removed? From what I know, I don't think the urbanist get their way. Though I am a tad concerned Dallas was quick to approve the D2 subway without considering a lowered I-345.

I am not sure that wasn't the point. With D-2 as planned  what they call I-345 either has to be completely removed or redone in the same way. I am not sure anyone but the Dallas Observer really supports its removal.  It isn't like Houston. I have talked about the inability to expand  Woodall Rogers, but I really haven't talked about the largest hurdle to removal. The new freeway route would be over ten miles farther.  In Houston, the new route is very little longer.

[Plutonic Panda]

How likely is it this road is removed? From what I know, I don't think the urbanist get their way. Though I am a tad concerned Dallas was quick to approve the D2 subway without considering a lowered I-345.

I am not sure that wasn't the point. With D-2 as planned  what they call I-345 either has to be completely removed or redone in the same way. I am not sure anyone but the Dallas Observer really supports its removal.  It isn't like Houston. I have talked about the inability to expand  Woodall Rogers, but I really haven't talked about the largest hurdle to removal. The new freeway route would be over ten miles farther.  In Houston, the new route is very little longer.

Which is quite a shame because there was a real opportunity to truly increase alternative transportation AND facilitate a major interstate expansion while reconnecting a neighborhood that would do well attached to downtown. But if you ask me, keeping I-345(I-45!!!!) is vastly more important than connecting Deep Ellum to downtown and I suspect I'm not the only who feels that way. The RE/T crowd shots themselves in the foot here.

[bwana39]

How likely is it this road is removed? From what I know, I don't think the urbanist get their way. Though I am a tad concerned Dallas was quick to approve the D2 subway without considering a lowered I-345.

I am not sure that wasn't the point. With D-2 as planned  what they call I-345 either has to be completely removed or redone in the same way. I am not sure anyone but the Dallas Observer really supports its removal.  It isn't like Houston. I have talked about the inability to expand  Woodall Rogers, but I really haven't talked about the largest hurdle to removal. The new freeway route would be over ten miles farther.  In Houston, the new route is very little longer.

Which is quite a shame because there was a real opportunity to truly increase alternative transportation AND facilitate a major interstate expansion while reconnecting a neighborhood that would do well attached to downtown. But if you ask me, keeping I-345(I-45!!!!) is vastly more important than connecting Deep Ellum to downtown and I suspect I'm not the only who feels that way. The RE/T crowd shots themselves in the foot here.

Have you ever been to Deep Ellum? It is a group of 1 or 2 story mid-twentieth century commercial buildings. There is not and hardly ever was any residential in that area. The residential south of Ross was primarily around interstate 30. Interstate 30 did indeed break up neighborhoods. 
There were some low income houses (shotgun shacks) immediately adjacent to the rail lines when central expressway was built two decades earlier, but as a whole, that was a good bit further north.  This lore is trying to create what has yet to be created.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJe1iUuAW4M

By the way, I would bet with borrowed money or my last meal, that if I-345 were to be gone, that a handful or less of the buildings currently in Deep Ellum would still exist a decade after its removal.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ I have and it's a nice community. Not sure about the residential portion but the times I have been it was lively and vibrant. A good asset for Dallas this neighborhood is. But I support I-345 over it any day of the week.

[The Ghostbuster]

I would say LEAVE INTERSTATE 345 ALONE! The existing freeway is a needed-connection in the city's freeway system, and removing it would cause more problems than it solves. Surely there are better alternatives to improving and redeveloping the Dallas area without getting rid of 345.

[ethanhopkin14]

I live in a city (Austin) that scrapped a plan 35 years ago because they said if you don't build it they won't come.  Now they want to tear out freeways.  Good luck with that.

Yeah, that worked so well.  They didn't built it in Austin (to keep it a small town!) and they still came anyway.  Now we have a city with a population at about a million and an infrastructure comparable to a city of 100,000.

[Bobby5280]

I think the freeway & toll road system Austin is a good bit better than a 100,000 person city. However, the powers that be sure did screw the pooch regarding I-35 in the downtown area. Austin hasn't been a modest size city in quite a while; the city limits population is on the verge of passing 1 million residents if that hasn't happened already. The metro area has 2 million. Enough traffic is moving within and through the Austin area to warrant serious corridor upgrades. Not just I-35 either.

Also, what is going on with all the partial directional stack interchanges? The I-35/TX-71 and US-183/TX-1 are proper stack interchanges. Others like TX-1/US-290, US-183/US-290, I-35/US-183, I-35/TX-45 and US-290/TX-130 are all partial stacks. Most of those interchanges will have to be expanded in the coming years.

[ethanhopkin14]

I think the freeway & toll road system Austin is a good bit better than a 100,000 person city. However, the powers that be sure did screw the pooch regarding I-35 in the downtown area. Austin hasn't been a modest size city in quite a while; the city limits population is on the verge of passing 1 million residents if that hasn't happened already. The metro area has 2 million. Enough traffic is moving within and through the Austin area to warrant serious corridor upgrades. Not just I-35 either.

Also, what is going on with all the partial directional stack interchanges? The I-35/TX-71 and US-183/TX-1 are proper stack interchanges. Others like TX-1/US-290, US-183/US-290, I-35/US-183, I-35/TX-45 and US-290/TX-130 are all partial stacks. Most of those interchanges will have to be expanded in the coming years.

The toll system is okay for the suburbs. 

I am talking about getting around in the City of Austin itself, in particular the anti-freeway 60's and 70's that's burning us now.  Not to mention Oak Hill freeway portion that is working on 40 years with no progress that once built will be 20 years obsolete. 

[In_Correct]

Austin hasn't been a modest size city in quite a while; the city limits population is on the verge of passing 1 million residents if that hasn't happened already. The metro area has 2 million. Enough traffic is moving within and through the Austin area to warrant serious corridor upgrades. Not just I-35 either.

U.S. 281 Also.

Also, what is going on with all the partial directional stack interchanges? The I-35/TX-71 and US-183/TX-1 are proper stack interchanges. Others like TX-1/US-290, US-183/US-290, I-35/US-183, I-35/TX-45 and US-290/TX-130 are all partial stacks. Most of those interchanges will have to be expanded in the coming years.

https://i.imgur.com/XBAJ74O.jpg

The toll system is okay for the suburbs. 

Of course it is. It has Toll Roads.

[silverback1065]

I think the freeway & toll road system Austin is a good bit better than a 100,000 person city. However, the powers that be sure did screw the pooch regarding I-35 in the downtown area. Austin hasn't been a modest size city in quite a while; the city limits population is on the verge of passing 1 million residents if that hasn't happened already. The metro area has 2 million. Enough traffic is moving within and through the Austin area to warrant serious corridor upgrades. Not just I-35 either.

Also, what is going on with all the partial directional stack interchanges? The I-35/TX-71 and US-183/TX-1 are proper stack interchanges. Others like TX-1/US-290, US-183/US-290, I-35/US-183, I-35/TX-45 and US-290/TX-130 are all partial stacks. Most of those interchanges will have to be expanded in the coming years.

The toll system is okay for the suburbs. 

I am talking about getting around in the City of Austin itself, in particular the anti-freeway 60's and 70's that's burning us now.  Not to mention Oak Hill freeway portion that is working on 40 years with no progress that once built will be 20 years obsolete.

they cancelled freeways in austin? i thought 35 was the only interstate ever proposed there

[OCGuy81]

I live in a city (Austin) that scrapped a plan 35 years ago because they said if you don't build it they won't come.  Now they want to tear out freeways.  Good luck with that.

Yeah, that worked so well.  They didn't built it in Austin (to keep it a small town!) and they still came anyway.  Now we have a city with a population at about a million and an infrastructure comparable to a city of 100,000.

Yet another similarity between Portland and Austin.  Both claim to have invented the phrase Keep (Respective City) Weird, both have a high degree of hipsters, and both are staunchly anti-freeway.  Portland will never upgrade any of their interstates no matter how many people move there.

[Plutonic Panda]

I live in a city (Austin) that scrapped a plan 35 years ago because they said if you don't build it they won't come.  Now they want to tear out freeways.  Good luck with that.

Yeah, that worked so well.  They didn't built it in Austin (to keep it a small town!) and they still came anyway.  Now we have a city with a population at about a million and an infrastructure comparable to a city of 100,000.

Yet another similarity between Portland and Austin.  Both claim to have invented the phrase Keep (Respective City) Weird, both have a high degree of hipsters, and both are staunchly anti-freeway.  Portland will never upgrade any of their interstates no matter how many people move there.

I believe several interstates in Portland are planned to be expanded/improved. Lots of vocalized opposition but they are still moving forward from what I understand. I hope it happens .

[OCGuy81]

I live in a city (Austin) that scrapped a plan 35 years ago because they said if you don't build it they won't come.  Now they want to tear out freeways.  Good luck with that.

Yeah, that worked so well.  They didn't built it in Austin (to keep it a small town!) and they still came anyway.  Now we have a city with a population at about a million and an infrastructure comparable to a city of 100,000.

Yet another similarity between Portland and Austin.  Both claim to have invented the phrase Keep (Respective City) Weird, both have a high degree of hipsters, and both are staunchly anti-freeway.  Portland will never upgrade any of their interstates no matter how many people move there.

I believe several interstates in Portland are planned to be expanded/improved. Lots of vocalized opposition but they are still moving forward from what I understand. I hope it happens .

My guess would be they're expanding them to include more bike lanes, but we'll see if this actually happens.

[ethanhopkin14]

I think the freeway & toll road system Austin is a good bit better than a 100,000 person city. However, the powers that be sure did screw the pooch regarding I-35 in the downtown area. Austin hasn't been a modest size city in quite a while; the city limits population is on the verge of passing 1 million residents if that hasn't happened already. The metro area has 2 million. Enough traffic is moving within and through the Austin area to warrant serious corridor upgrades. Not just I-35 either.

Also, what is going on with all the partial directional stack interchanges? The I-35/TX-71 and US-183/TX-1 are proper stack interchanges. Others like TX-1/US-290, US-183/US-290, I-35/US-183, I-35/TX-45 and US-290/TX-130 are all partial stacks. Most of those interchanges will have to be expanded in the coming years.

The toll system is okay for the suburbs. 

I am talking about getting around in the City of Austin itself, in particular the anti-freeway 60's and 70's that's burning us now.  Not to mention Oak Hill freeway portion that is working on 40 years with no progress that once built will be 20 years obsolete.

they cancelled freeways in austin? i thought 35 was the only interstate ever proposed there

yes.  They canceled a few local east west freeways (mom-interstate) in the 60's and blocked a few more from being built that eventually did (portions of those are still not built yet...see US 290 on the west side of town).

[triplemultiplex]

(mom-interstate)

Thank you for this delightful typo!
"This interstate is just like the ones mom used to make."

[silverback1065]

I live in a city (Austin) that scrapped a plan 35 years ago because they said if you don't build it they won't come.  Now they want to tear out freeways.  Good luck with that.

Yeah, that worked so well.  They didn't built it in Austin (to keep it a small town!) and they still came anyway.  Now we have a city with a population at about a million and an infrastructure comparable to a city of 100,000.

Yet another similarity between Portland and Austin.  Both claim to have invented the phrase Keep (Respective City) Weird, both have a high degree of hipsters, and both are staunchly anti-freeway.  Portland will never upgrade any of their interstates no matter how many people move there.

I always thought Austin sucked. The whole weird charm I think disappeared decades ago. Went there last January and wasn't impressed San Antonio was far better. the riverwalk is incredible. Austin just seemed like a city trying to be cool and failing epically at it.