Is technological regression a thing?

[webny99]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for mileage-based exit numbers. But converting exit numbers statewide is a big expense, so it makes sense that they haven't forced the issue yet.

The Cuomo signs, on the other hand...
You can't even form an argument in favor of those things. They were substandard, closely spaced, and ugly as heck, not to mention distracting, popping up like weeds in places they didn't belong, and wrongfully promoting an elected official. No question that the Cuomo signs are more blatantly substandard than the exit numbers, as much as I hate both.

[Duke87]

Were there other enviro concerns beyond noise pollution wrt SST?

I'm late to this thread but since it doesn't appear anyone has addressed this - yes.

Another major issue with Supersonic planes is that, in order to get the air resistance down low enough to make their efficiency reasonable, they fly in the stratosphere - higher than ordinary subsonic commercial airliners. But, this also means they are spewing emissions into the stratosphere, some contents of which have potentially negative consequences for stratospheric ozone.

It should be noted that it was not long after the Concorde debuted that the whole "we're destroying the ozone layer" environmental crisis peaked in public concern. This is another obstacle to commercial supersonic flight.


Theoretically, this and the sonic boom issue could both be solved using ballistic flight rather than powered supersonic flight.

Of course, launching ballistic flight in a way that keeps the g-forces low enough to not make all the people on board hurl would be a challenge. As would then figuring out how to enable the resulting projectile to resume powered flight once it neared its destination. But theoretically it is doable.


Realistically though, the biggest reason you don't see much effort put towards this or powered supersonic commercial planes is simply that there is not sufficient benefit to justify the cost. Conventional jets can fly a good chunk of the way around the world in half a day and for most people this is fast enough. And for the elite who want premium service, we have moved towards fancier first class accommodations in lieu of faster but less comfortable accommodations. I've been inside of a Concorde when they had one on exhibit at the Intrepid museum. It's real cramped in there. If I had to chose between spending a couple thousand dollars to fly to London in two hours sitting on that or spending a couple thousand dollars to fly to London in six hours in a bed where I can comfortably sleep for the whole trip... I'd take the bed.

[Beltway]

Theoretically, this and the sonic boom issue could both be solved using ballistic flight rather than powered supersonic flight.

What do you mean by ballistic flight?  As like with an ICBM that leaves the atmosphere for most of the flight?  They are accelerated to about 15,000 mph, which takes a lot of rocket fuel, and have an apogee of about 150 miles above the Earth.   When the SST reentered the atmosphere it would be like a giant space shuttle, built of exotic materials, having extensive heat shielding, and it would produce large sonic booms on reentry.

[Duke87]

What do you mean by ballistic flight?  As like with an ICBM that leaves the atmosphere for most of the flight?

The term "ballistic", by definition, means you are dealing with a projectile so yes, that is exactly what I mean. Although it would not go as high for shorter trips.  When you throw a ball, that is also an example of ballistic flight.

and it would produce large sonic booms on reentry

Right but so long as it reenters over the ocean this is not a problem, so you can do this to any destination near the coast regardless of where you're coming from. The Concorde was limited to NYC-London and NYC-Paris flights because these were mostly over the ocean and it could not fly supersonic over land. A ballistic craft would be able to be shot from New York to Tokyo, and would not need to (would not be able to) slow down as it crossed the North American continent. It'd be able to do the reverse trip as well, but would need to reenter offshore over the Atlantic and then turn around to head into New York once it resumed powered flight.

The sonic boom problem would still rear its head for inland destinations, but at least it'd be able to supersonically pass over continents so long as it is not landing or taking off from the middle of them.

And yes, there are significant technical challenges involved in the re-entry as well. But as your comparison to the space shuttle shows, we've solved these challenges before. It is absolutely possible.

[hotdogPi]

What do you mean by ballistic flight?  As like with an ICBM that leaves the atmosphere for most of the flight?

The term "ballistic", by definition, means you are dealing with a projectile so yes, that is exactly what I mean. Although it would not go as high for shorter trips.  When you throw a ball, that is also an example of ballistic flight.

If the maximum height is 275 km, you're only in the air for 8 minutes. Definitely not enough time.

(edited post to change numbers slightly)

[hbelkins]

The Cuomo signs, on the other hand...
You can't even form an argument in favor of those things.

Sure you can. The state was promoting economic activity through tourism on property it owns.

They were substandard, closely spaced, and ugly as heck, not to mention distracting, popping up like weeds in places they didn't belong...

Take it away, Mr. Gorte.

The Cuomo signs are easy to ignore.

and wrongfully promoting an elected official.

Just about every state sticks its governor's name on the welcome signs at the state line. And some states put the governor's name on construction funding signs. Was Cuomo's name on every sign? I don't remember seeing it.

[jon daly]

Good to see more SST discussion.

I was on I-287 a month and a half ago and don't recall the Cuomo signs. They don't seem worse than the signs on the RI interstates saying that all the bridgework is on schedule.

[Beltway]

What do you mean by ballistic flight?  As like with an ICBM that leaves the atmosphere for most of the flight?

The term "ballistic", by definition, means you are dealing with a projectile so yes, that is exactly what I mean. Although it would not go as high for shorter trips.  When you throw a ball, that is also an example of ballistic flight.

So only 8,000 mph or so?  That would still take enormously more energy required than for current airliners.

and it would produce large sonic booms on reentry

Right but so long as it reenters over the ocean this is not a problem, so you can do this to any destination near the coast regardless of where you're coming from. The Concorde was limited to NYC-London and NYC-Paris flights because these were mostly over the ocean and it could not fly supersonic over land. A ballistic craft would be able to be shot from New York to Tokyo, and would not need to (would not be able to) slow down as it crossed the North American continent. It'd be able to do the reverse trip as well, but would need to reenter offshore over the Atlantic and then turn around to head into New York once it resumed powered flight.
The sonic boom problem would still rear its head for inland destinations, but at least it'd be able to supersonically pass over continents so long as it is not landing or taking off from the middle of them.
And yes, there are significant technical challenges involved in the re-entry as well. But as your comparison to the space shuttle shows, we've solved these challenges before. It is absolutely possible.

The space shuttle was never more than an experimental vehicle.  Much smaller than a 250+ seat airliner.  Still cost a billion dollars per flight in the later years.

Not being able to serve places like Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas, Denver, etc. is part of why Concorde failed economically.  Needing connect to the coast would slow down travel considerably.  That flight to Tokyo would impact northern Japan upon reentry (check the great circle route), plus it would be about the length and height and speed of an ICBM flight.

[kkt]

The SST was too short range.  If they could have served trans-Pacific routes, say Los Angeles to Tokyo in 3 hours rather than 11.5, they would have been more competitive.

[empirestate]

I make no judgment as to whether your reasons for opposing mileage-based exit numbering are frivolous or not.  They are yours, so the only person they really need to make sense to is you.  I would just have liked to have known much earlier in this discussion that you were not really persuadable on this issue.  This would have made it easy to disengage sooner and shift my focus to other aspects of the exit numbering problem.

Sorry to have left you hanging so long! I guess I would have thought it was clear by then that I was unpersuadable, and didn't realize I should have explicitly stated as much. Although I suppose that's really what I was doing with my little sombrero-hatted remark: trying to make perfectly clear that my mind was already made up. But the sombrero-less truth remains that I'm not really being unpersuadable for stubbornness' sake. Had any new information been presented that suggested a reason to convert, I'd have remained open to persuasion. But as I recall, by that time it was just all of the same arguments in favor of conversion, all of which I already knew about, and none of which persuaded me, so that's why I made the quip about intentionally refusing to be persuaded.

Relax, take a deep breath, enjoy the weather.. Slow down to speed limit+20 and enjoy beautiful sequential numbers..
IN A DEDICATED THREAD!!!!

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22198.0

Yes; no need to re-discuss that topic here! Only continue to discuss whether I am persuadable on various topics, please–just not the topics themselves.

[Beltway]

The SST was too short range.  If they could have served trans-Pacific routes, say Los Angeles to Tokyo in 3 hours rather than 11.5, they would have been more competitive.

The Boeing 2707 design was considerably longer in range than the Concorde, but still not long enough to cross the Pacific non-stop.  Back then there wasn't enough travel demand on those routes in any case to support supersonic travel.

[abefroman329]

The SST was too short range.  If they could have served trans-Pacific routes, say Los Angeles to Tokyo in 3 hours rather than 11.5, they would have been more competitive.

The Boeing 2707 design was considerably longer in range than the Concorde, but still not long enough to cross the Pacific non-stop.  Back then there wasn't enough travel demand on those routes in any case to support supersonic travel.

But would supersonic air travel have spurred demand? I don't think there was much demand for travel from the continental US to Hawaii prior to the Boeing 707.

[webny99]

The Cuomo signs, on the other hand...
You can't even form an argument in favor of those things.

Sure you can. The state was promoting economic activity through tourism on property it owns.

Theoretically. The signs themselves never had a verifiable chance of impacting economic activity, or boosting tourism. So that argument defends Cuomo, but not the actual signs.

Take it away, Mr. Gorte.

If this is supposed to be a reference to something, I don't get it.

Was Cuomo's name on every sign? I don't remember seeing it.

I don't remember either, but the fact that everyone has been calling them "Cuomo signs" speaks for itself... and sets these signs apart from a construction funding or state welcome sign.

[J N Winkler]

Relax, take a deep breath, enjoy the weather.. Slow down to speed limit+20 and enjoy beautiful sequential numbers..
IN A DEDICATED THREAD!!!!

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22198.0

Yes; no need to re-discuss that topic here! Only continue to discuss whether I am persuadable on various topics, please–just not the topics themselves.

I thought about suggesting mileage-based exit numbers were an example of Elmer.  Then I decided to put the pointed stick away.

[empirestate]

I thought about suggesting mileage-based exit numbers were an example of Elmer.  Then I decided to put the pointed stick away.

I thought of that, too, but then I couldn't figure out what problem they solve that was better solved by sequential (at least, not as a technological solution). What's the regression in that case?

[webny99]

I thought about suggesting mileage-based exit numbers were an example of Elmer.  Then I decided to put the pointed stick away.

I thought of that, too, but then I couldn't figure out what problem they solve that was better solved by sequential (at least, not as a technological solution). What's the regression in that case?

I've been following this discussion only loosely, but I might note that GPS technology has made mileage-based exits less valuable to the average motorist than they were 50 years ago.

[kalvado]

I thought about suggesting mileage-based exit numbers were an example of Elmer.  Then I decided to put the pointed stick away.

I thought of that, too, but then I couldn't figure out what problem they solve that was better solved by sequential (at least, not as a technological solution). What's the regression in that case?

I've been following this discussion only loosely, but I might note that GPS technology has made mileage-based exits less valuable to the average motorist than they were 50 years ago.

I still think that we may see at least some of road signage replaced/supplemented by wireless transmitters communicating with receivers in cars. No more font controversy, signs unreadable in weather or darkness, no more complains about aesthetic issues of overhead BGS on cape cod, and a choice of sequential or km-based exit number with a press of a button.
But definitely a lot of complains about Elmer from someone insisting on driving an old but reliable Ford T as visual signs slowly get more and more neglected...

[abefroman329]

What's the regression in that case?

Not knowing how many total exits there are in that state, I guess.  I can't think of another one.

[hbelkins]

Take it away, Mr. Gorte.

If this is supposed to be a reference to something, I don't get it.

Yes. I quoted him concerning how easy it is to ignore the signs if you want. See below.

The Cuomo signs are easy to ignore.

[kalvado]

Take it away, Mr. Gorte.

If this is supposed to be a reference to something, I don't get it.

Yes. I quoted him concerning how easy it is to ignore the signs if you want. See below.

The Cuomo signs are easy to ignore.

OK, lets see how good you're at that...



PLEASE IGNORE THIS MESSAGE!!

I SAID PLEASE IGNORE IT! FOR REAL!

[formulanone]

Take it away, Mr. Gorte.

If this is supposed to be a reference to something, I don't get it.

Yes. I quoted him concerning how easy it is to ignore the signs if you want. See below.

The Cuomo signs are easy to ignore.

OK, lets see how good you're at that...



PLEASE IGNORE THIS MESSAGE!!

I SAID PLEASE IGNORE IT! FOR REAL!

Experience  ✪  Explore  ✪  Enjoy
--------------------------------------
Alanland
--------------------------------------
Download the A:\Goat.app.exe
--------------------------------------
❤   ♛    Ⓞ
Attractions          History            Karo Syrup

[J N Winkler]

Experience  ✪  Explore  ✪  Enjoy
--------------------------------------
Alanland
--------------------------------------
Download the A:\Goat.app.exe
--------------------------------------
❤   ♛    Ⓞ
Attractions          History            Karo Syrup

Well played!

[empirestate]

This whole thread is now officially a regression.

[Beltway]

The Boeing 2707 design was considerably longer in range than the Concorde, but still not long enough to cross the Pacific non-stop.  Back then there wasn't enough travel demand on those routes in any case to support supersonic travel.

But would supersonic air travel have spurred demand? I don't think there was much demand for travel from the continental US to Hawaii prior to the Boeing 707.

There were PanAm Clippers back in the 1930s between the continental U.S. and Hawaii, when airlines cruised at about 200 mph, and by the nature of the route only non-stops were feasible.  Be about a 12-hour flight.  Constellations and DC-7s after the war cruised at about 330 mph or so, that would be about 7 hours flight.  Not too bad.  I'm not sure how much the B-707 changed the demand, but the B-747 certainly did.

A B-2707 flight between the U.S. and the Far East would still need a refueling stop, and that would cause a major drop in average trip speed.

I wonder if a feasible detailed design was ever worked up for an SST that could cross the Pacific non-stop.

[kkt]

The Boeing 2707 design was considerably longer in range than the Concorde, but still not long enough to cross the Pacific non-stop.  Back then there wasn't enough travel demand on those routes in any case to support supersonic travel.

But would supersonic air travel have spurred demand? I don't think there was much demand for travel from the continental US to Hawaii prior to the Boeing 707.

There were PanAm Clippers back in the 1930s between the continental U.S. and Hawaii, when airlines cruised at about 200 mph, and by the nature of the route only non-stops were feasible.  Be about a 12-hour flight.  Constellations and DC-7s after the war cruised at about 330 mph or so, that would be about 7 hours flight.  Not too bad.  I'm not sure how much the B-707 changed the demand, but the B-747 certainly did.

A B-2707 flight between the U.S. and the Far East would still need a refueling stop, and that would cause a major drop in average trip speed.

I wonder if a feasible detailed design was ever worked up for an SST that could cross the Pacific non-stop.

The 707 was the first successful jet airliner.  The Comet flew first, but had a sad series of accidents and was taken out of service.  The 707 introduced higher speed and longer range flights at lower prices.