AARoads Forum

Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Travel Mapping => Topic started by: 1995hoo on February 18, 2015, 01:57:06 PM

Title: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: 1995hoo on February 18, 2015, 01:57:06 PM
Does anyone know whether the Clinched Highway Mapping site is still active? The lack of updates to the Highway Browser doesn't much matter since I assume the person running the site got bogged down with other obligations. I've noted that it appears updated .LIST files containing user data may no longer being processed.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: froggie on February 18, 2015, 08:26:26 PM
There's been minimal to no contact with the site owner in recent weeks.  We're not sure what's happening.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on February 24, 2015, 01:11:00 PM
I've been wondering the same thing.  My log shows the last update on the site was run back in November.  I've submitted two updates since then that haven't been processed.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: ET21 on February 24, 2015, 03:34:32 PM
Looking like it might have been sent to the death bed  :-|
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: 1995hoo on February 24, 2015, 03:50:31 PM
I suppose I may just continue to update my .LIST file on my PC in case it ever re-activates.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on February 24, 2015, 04:15:44 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 18, 2015, 08:26:26 PMThere's been minimal to no contact with the site owner in recent weeks.
Though it should also be said that contingency plans are being created, in case the site does go down / takes too long to hear anything at all from the owner.
QuoteWe're not sure what's happening.
Indeed, collaborators like froggie and I are as in the dark as everyone else.

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 24, 2015, 03:50:31 PMI suppose I may just continue to update my .LIST file on my PC in case it ever re-activates.
I'm still maintaining the regions of the world I'm collaborating on, albeit not sending updates in until the ones I sent in last summer get ingested. I don't think the collaborators have given up and should there be a new site doing the same thing, or (hopefully) the current site stops being mothballed, then an up-to-date .list file is a good thing to have.

I'm even starting to bring up the European countries that I am not in charge of up to date (they are about a year behind) in case the contingency plans need enacting. I spent the weekend (doing other stuff as well) bringing Central Asia (countries ending -stan) up to date* - mostly improvements in mapping, rather than anything else.

*Which is probably the most pointless task ever (updating routes that no one has been anywhere near, that aren't mine to update, for a site that is mothballed). Oh, wait, no - I made Asian Highway files for those countries - that is the most pointless task ever!
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Scott5114 on February 24, 2015, 04:41:07 PM
I'm kind of surprised someone still has to manually process the .list files. It would be trivial to allow the .list file to be uploaded to the server by the user and have the site automatically parse it.

If a new CHM site has to be made to replace the current one, I'd like to see a way for the site to build the list files interactively. The text file approach is robust but can get tedious.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: 1995hoo on February 24, 2015, 05:05:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2015, 04:41:07 PM
I'm kind of surprised someone still has to manually process the .list files. It would be trivial to allow the .list file to be uploaded to the server by the user and have the site automatically parse it.

If a new CHM site has to be made to replace the current one, I'd like to see a way for the site to build the list files interactively. The text file approach is robust but can get tedious.

If a new site were built, it'd be nice if it could automatically adjust the users' lists when a revision is made to a particular road or a waypoint is renamed, or else continue to recognize the old data. An example of the former would be when the A344 past Stonehenge was closed and the road number decommissioned–those of us who had driven it now had an error listed in our log files (mine still shows the error because I have not deleted the entry and probably won't). This is a situation where it'd be nice if it could still recognize the old data–there was a road there, even though it's now gone, so it'd be nice if the system could account for your having driven it. (To be hypertechnical about it, there's still a road there, but it's now restricted to shuttle buses from the new visitors' centre located further to the west at the A360 roundabout that wasn't there when I visited. I suppose someone could still "clinch" the now-existing road by riding one of the shuttles.)

In the case of a waypoint being renamed, it seems like it could be possible for the system to recognize the old name, sort of like a redirect on Wikipedia.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on February 24, 2015, 05:06:05 PM
I had actually submitted my list as a first-time user recently and I had been thinking initially I had made a mistake in my file and that's why it had not been processed. Hope everything is OK with the owner. :/
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on February 24, 2015, 05:12:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 24, 2015, 05:05:01 PMIf a new site were built, it'd be nice if it could automatically adjust the users' lists when a revision is made to a particular road or a waypoint is renamed, or else continue to recognize the old data. An example of the former would be when the A344 past Stonehenge was closed and the road number decommissioned–those of us who had driven it now had an error listed in our log files (mine still shows the error because I have not deleted the entry and probably won't). This is a situation where it'd be nice if it could still recognize the old data–there was a road there, even though it's now gone, so it'd be nice if the system could account for your having driven it. (To be hypertechnical about it, there's still a road there, but it's now restricted to shuttle buses from the new visitors' centre located further to the west at the A360 roundabout that wasn't there when I visited. I suppose someone could still "clinch" the now-existing road by riding one of the shuttles.)
That seems rather difficult to do, and the risk of false positives seems too great. You'll just have to put up with the 'error' which just sits there rather hidden in your user log file.
QuoteIn the case of a waypoint being renamed, it seems like it could be possible for the system to recognize the old name, sort of like a redirect on Wikipedia.
That exists now. In fact, that was there years ago, but is now handled more elegantly.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: 1995hoo on February 24, 2015, 06:10:36 PM
It does? Mine returned an error message in the log file when a road's terminus was renamed. Doesn't matter now because I fixed it to match the new label.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Bickendan on February 24, 2015, 07:18:15 PM
What should have happened is that depricated tag was flagged as hidden and a new one brought in at the same location with the new identifier to prevent .lists from breaking.

So if you clinched say US 26 in Oregon only from OR 10 to SE 39th Ave, the SE39thAve point would have been hidden but kept in place when the CesChaBlvd got put in when the change over to Cesar Chavez Blvd got rammed through. Otherwise, your list would break, and sometimes it's not clear why, even when the changes were noted in the change log.

In rare cases, no one would be using a point that gets changed; then hiding the old point is irrelevant and could just be switched to the ID. An auto-generated list would indicate which points were in use. Mid-line points tended to be safe to change without breakage, because most users would travel from highway to highway and not to an intermediary point.

Route reroutes, extensions and [segment] turnbacks tended to break .lists no matter what, however.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on February 24, 2015, 08:04:32 PM
terescoj (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1054) did have contact with Tim once in December about the site.  I'll let him comment about what that was about if he wants to.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Mapmikey on February 24, 2015, 08:05:50 PM
CHM is a terrific resource and I hope it is able to continue or be otherwise resurrected.

I always thought a neat feature to have would be an "inverse" button.  Suppose I pull up my view of routes driven in North Carolina and am trying to see graphically what I have left to do.  Maybe it's my eyesight but I have a hard time seeing all the fainter lines that represent the routes I am missing.  If I could hit the inverse button I could then have the missing stuff be bolded and it would be easy to see what I have left.

Mapmikey
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on February 24, 2015, 08:08:32 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 24, 2015, 08:05:50 PM
CHM is a terrific resource and I hope it is able to continue or be otherwise resurrected.

I always thought a neat feature to have would be an "inverse" button.  Suppose I pull up my view of routes driven in North Carolina and am trying to see graphically what I have left to do.  Maybe it's my eyesight but I have a hard time seeing all the fainter lines that represent the routes I am missing.  If I could hit the inverse button I could then have the missing stuff be bolded and it would be easy to see what I have left.

Mapmikey

You mean this? http://cmap.m-plex.com/stat/region.php?u=mapmikey&c=usa&rg=nc&du=mi&sort=pa#th
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on February 24, 2015, 08:49:19 PM
One other way to do it:  Look in "travelers stats" for the region that interests you, find someone who's clinched most or all routes in that region, print out his map, and compare it to yours.

I found comparing my Maryland map to mdroads' very helpful to figure out what and where were my unclinched Maryland state routes.  Someone out to snag more Virginia routes (only a few state routes covered, at this point CHM has mainly Interstates and U.S. routes) could do same with mapmikey's map.  Other jurisdictions will have some other users on the top of their leaderboards.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Duke87 on February 24, 2015, 09:02:22 PM
Basically, the owner of the site is really busy with real life commitments and has been unable to find time to update anything. There has been some work on trying to alleviate this by enabling contributors to run updates on LIST files, but I do not know how close to reality that is.

Meanwhile a bunch of folks did run a proof of concept and were able to recreate the site's maps in Javascript. So, if worst comes to worst, the site will get rebuilt in new form. For the time being development of that has ceased, though, because some indication was given that the existing site is "not dead yet!".




As for interrim strategy it should be noted that CHM's maps are rendered in PNG format, you can right click and save as and then edit them manually if you are willing to put in the work.

Personally I've been keeping my LIST file up to date, so that I can be up to date when/if the site sees another update, or if the site has to be rebuilt by others. And if neither of those things happens I at least still have the data and can find a way to do something with it myself.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: hbelkins on February 24, 2015, 09:36:24 PM
I'd still like to see a clickable interface. Until that happens, I won't be participating.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: froggie on February 25, 2015, 08:53:38 AM
Not sure how a clickable interface would be any better, since you could have up to a couple hundred clicks just for a single route...
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Mapmikey on February 25, 2015, 09:29:46 AM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 24, 2015, 08:08:32 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 24, 2015, 08:05:50 PM
CHM is a terrific resource and I hope it is able to continue or be otherwise resurrected.

I always thought a neat feature to have would be an "inverse" button.  Suppose I pull up my view of routes driven in North Carolina and am trying to see graphically what I have left to do.  Maybe it's my eyesight but I have a hard time seeing all the fainter lines that represent the routes I am missing.  If I could hit the inverse button I could then have the missing stuff be bolded and it would be easy to see what I have left.

Mapmikey

You mean this? http://cmap.m-plex.com/stat/region.php?u=mapmikey&c=usa&rg=nc&du=mi&sort=pa#th

No I mean the map graphic.  While I can call up the list you linked to and I certainly know where all those routes are, it is limited in value if I am trying to put together a ride to go clinch some of them in terms of seeing the whole picture so that I can minimize backtracking or accidentally skipping 1 route requiring a separate trip to get.

This gets truer the further I venture from home - New Jersey has a bunch of those shorter 1xx routes and I don't know where they are so seeing them highlighted on the map would make trip planning better.

Oscar's method to approximate this can be useful in some instances but would be harder for states where I already am the worldwide leader...  ;)

Mapmikey
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Bickendan on February 25, 2015, 10:57:13 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 25, 2015, 09:29:46 AM

Oscar's method to approximate this can be useful in some instances but would be harder for states where I already am the worldwide leader...  ;)

Mapmikey
Yeah but a 100% clinch of DC isn't something to write home about...  :bigass:
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on February 25, 2015, 03:11:16 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 25, 2015, 08:53:38 AMNot sure how a clickable interface would be any better, since you could have up to a couple hundred clicks just for a single route...
It's also one of those things that sounds easy, but is hard to do (AFAICS from my limited programming knowledge)
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 25, 2015, 09:29:46 AMNo I mean the map graphic.  While I can call up the list you linked to and I certainly know where all those routes are, it is limited in value if I am trying to put together a ride to go clinch some of them in terms of seeing the whole picture so that I can minimize backtracking or accidentally skipping 1 route requiring a separate trip to get.
I second this, and (AFAICS) it shouldn't be hard to implement. Also (with the user 'blank') it also makes maps like this more clear to have red instead of pale pink
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcmap.m-plex.com%2Fmaps%2Fcentermap.php%3Fu%3Dblank%26amp%3Bsys%3Dusaus%26amp%3Bc%3Dsys%26amp%3Brg%3Dusaus%26amp%3Bmv%3D0&hash=65f4c89c4408d8c4e1c6109057d4a41ef014a104)
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: hbelkins on February 25, 2015, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 25, 2015, 08:53:38 AM
Not sure how a clickable interface would be any better, since you could have up to a couple hundred clicks just for a single route...

It would be a lot easier than having to refer to a master list of points, and then typing up your list from that master list and flipping back and forth between them while hoping you get everything right. Click and scroll, click and scroll would be a lot simpler.

Personally, I only keep track of clinched US and Interstate routes, along with Kentucky and West Virginia state highways.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on February 25, 2015, 09:43:36 PM
I don't find the pale unclinched colors to be hard to see, but if you need something darker, there's always the "CHM" map layers in the highway browser.  When browsing a route, the dropdown for where to get the map data from includes layers for the CHM systems (colored the same way user maps are, with "clinched" being clinchable, and "unclinched" being systems in development) and the percentage of users who have traveled a segment.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on February 25, 2015, 10:08:23 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 24, 2015, 08:04:32 PM
terescoj (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1054) did have contact with Tim once in December about the site.  I'll let him comment about what that was about if he wants to.

Here's what I wrote about 6 weeks ago on the CHM forum:

"I did get an email from Tim late in December about the ongoing efforts to allow others to help with site updates and .list processing but no further responses since. I have some the tools installed on a hostmonster account that are the first step in this effort. So I wouldn't declare the site dead by any means."

Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything since.

I'm not giving up on the site yet.  I also have no doubt that it if and when it seems clear that the current site has permanently ceased operation, a group of us will find a way to recreate a version 2.0.  The problem is that there's a TON of code that's been written over the years that none of us have access to, and we wouldn't be able to use it without permission even if we had such access.

Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rschen7754 on February 25, 2015, 11:11:42 PM
Quote from: Jim on February 25, 2015, 10:08:23 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 24, 2015, 08:04:32 PM
terescoj (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1054) did have contact with Tim once in December about the site.  I'll let him comment about what that was about if he wants to.
The problem is that there's a TON of code that's been written over the years that none of us have access to, and we wouldn't be able to use it without permission even if we had such access.



Perhaps any replacement should be run by at least a few people, so it's not all depending on one person to keep things going.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Scott5114 on February 26, 2015, 05:57:44 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 25, 2015, 08:53:38 AM
Not sure how a clickable interface would be any better, since you could have up to a couple hundred clicks just for a single route...


Only if you fail at designing interfaces. You should be able to select a waypoint as the start, another as the end, and then the site hits all the segments in between for you. Having each segment as a checkbox would be silly.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on February 26, 2015, 08:04:44 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 26, 2015, 05:57:44 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 25, 2015, 08:53:38 AM
Not sure how a clickable interface would be any better, since you could have up to a couple hundred clicks just for a single route...

Only if you fail at designing interfaces. You should be able to select a waypoint as the start, another as the end, and then the site hits all the segments in between for you. Having each segment as a checkbox would be silly.

Or you can just use a text editor to log the starting and ending endpoints, as we've been doing.  It's not that hard!  Re-tracing your travels, to find the routes you've traveled and the endpoints of your travel on each, is usually the hard part.  Complicating things is that there are often closely-spaced potential endpoints (like several intersections with numbered routes within a mile of each other, or closely-spaced exits), so you'd need to look carefully at the screen to figure out which point to click, even if you know which one it should be.

Even if there were a clickable interface, it should result in a text list file like we have now, which would be what the system processes to generate maps and statistics.  That would not only help those of us who already have large list files and would prefer not to get into a clickable interface to re-enter all that data, but also would provide an off-line backup in case of a system meltdown (or to consult if internet access is not available when we need it). 
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on February 26, 2015, 09:07:10 AM
Quote from: rschen7754 on February 25, 2015, 11:11:42 PM
Perhaps any replacement should be run by at least a few people, so it's not all depending on one person to keep things going.

I think this would be an essential feature of any replacement site.  It would need to have a small number of people who make big decisions about the direction of the project but it would be great if it could carry on without a dependence on any one or even a few people.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on February 26, 2015, 11:40:15 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 25, 2015, 09:43:36 PMI don't find the pale unclinched colors to be hard to see, but if you need something darker, there's always the "CHM" map layers in the highway browser.
Neither of us want a map that looks like this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.postimg.org%2Fg56obxhf3%2FUntitled.png&hash=b4a8d4b9d40ce279ad803ff95f5906e65f70ecda)
Or at least not for the purposes we were suggesting!

I was talking about a map showing a single system, and not having it be pale (it is visible, but not greatly so).

Mapmikey was talking about a map showing unclinched mileage more dominantly.

As you can see, the clinched stuff keeps drawing the eye while the unclinched (especially the orange/brown) fades into the background.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcmap.m-plex.com%2Fmaps%2Fcentermap.php%3Fu%3Dsi404%26amp%3Bsys%3Dall%26amp%3Bc%3Dgbr%26amp%3Brg%3DENG%26amp%3Bmv%3D1008&hash=6b23d2ccd026daf7b32ee16f0a009bced3f409cf)
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NE2 on February 26, 2015, 11:54:09 AM
Seems simple enough to do with an image editor, replacing one color with another. Except for short unclinched roads that are drawn under clinched roads due to being too close.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on February 26, 2015, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 24, 2015, 09:02:22 PM

Personally I've been keeping my LIST file up to date, so that I can be up to date when/if the site sees another update, or if the site has to be rebuilt by others. And if neither of those things happens I at least still have the data and can find a way to do something with it myself.


I've not only been keeping my LIST file up to date, I have been keeping a separate LIST file for Indiana state highways, just in case those ever get added to this site or its successor.  My stats would improve significantly if IN highways ever get added.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Mapmikey on February 26, 2015, 01:11:53 PM
Quote from: english si on February 26, 2015, 11:40:15 AM
Mapmikey was talking about a map showing unclinched mileage more dominantly.



Mapmikey was talking about showing unclinched mileage as if it were the clinched mileage and the clinched mileage as if it were the unclinched.  Not sure if that is what you were saying there...

Mapmikey
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on February 26, 2015, 03:34:38 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on February 26, 2015, 12:23:38 PMI've not only been keeping my LIST file up to date, I have been keeping a separate LIST file for Indiana state highways, just in case those ever get added to this site or its successor.  My stats would improve significantly if IN highways ever get added.
I've got files made from some time in the summer when I had nothing to do.

But I shouldn't have done them as it wasn't mine to do (though the offer for someone else to do it was made, and I didn't get a response to my offer to do it). So maybe within a year with a successor site (as the peer review takes a while and I also have other stuff 'in the queue'), and probably never if the old site stays.
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 26, 2015, 01:11:53 PMMapmikey was talking about showing unclinched mileage as if it were the clinched mileage and the clinched mileage as if it were the unclinched.  Not sure if that is what you were saying there...
It was what I meant. If you look at my London map, your eyes are drawn to NW of the map where most routes are clinched, not the almost-totally unclinched area in the SE (I have been to Hastings, but by train. The brown line there is what I did on foot), or the empty (routes not yet activated as Tim said he'd peer review them about 2 years ago, but never finished doing it) NE. The clinched colour is the dominant one, you want the unclinched one to be dominant.

I tried NE2's invert suggestion (and then relightened the background using Paint's right-click erase) - it sort of works, sort of doesn't. Those lines aren't one-pixel of one colour, but have that whatdoyoucallit thing where edges are softened and there's annoying off-colour pixels surrounding the line.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Duke87 on February 26, 2015, 09:41:00 PM
Quote from: english si on February 26, 2015, 03:34:38 PM
But I shouldn't have done them as it wasn't mine to do

I feel like this in and of itself is toxic philosophy. Why have a turf war? If someone is willing to put in the effort to create something, their work ought to be appreciated and, if possible, used.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on February 26, 2015, 11:53:15 PM
Here are some of my thoughts for those considering working toward a replacement for the current CHM site.

My understanding of how the overall system works is that its entire state is determined by the descriptions of highway systems in the csv and wpt files built by the CHM collaborators, plus the .list files maintained and sent in by the site's users.  When a "site update" runs, all of that information is ingested into the system and placed into a back-end database.  I believe the previous database contents are simply thrown out and recreated from these files.  It's that database that gets queried to generate all of the pages we know and enjoy: the highway browser, all of our maps, and other stats.  There is also a lot of error checking that happens to ensure no bad data enters the system and to flag potential errors (many of which have painstakingly been reported as "false positive" errors over the years).

So I think the site could be recreated in pieces.  The ingestion of text files into the database would likely be a program or script run on a Linux/Unix system where all of the files exist, and where both the database daemon and the web server would be running.  Initially, all of that extra error checking could be left out just to get something running.  Once there is the ability to create the database, writing all those web pages that query it and generate maps and stats would come next.  The highway browser is probably the simplest of these (though far from trivial).  The Google Maps API does a lot of the hard work, and it should not be hard to pull out the appropriate waypoint labels in order to be plotted.  The full functionality of being able to click through to other roads/regions and to show a user's clinched segments could all be placed at a lower priority.  The generation of user and overall stats doesn't seem too terrible, though I know a lot of work was done to avoid double-counting clinched concurrencies, and to ensure a user gets "credit" for all concurrent routes on a segment even if only one of them is shown in his or her .list file.  Then there's the issue of user maps.  I can't remember the name of the library that generates those maps (like those quoted upthread here) but I'm sure we could figure it out.  Then it's a matter of drawing those maps, on demand, when users are navigating the site.  I'd also be interested in seeing an option that works more directly in Google Maps, but I'd hate to lose the simplicity of the maps the site produces now.

I have seen requests here (and many times in the past in the CHM forum) for a clickable interface to plot your travels.  While I'm in the camp of those who'd rather edit a file than try to click around on a map, I do think it's a nice feature to have.  I'd see it as almost a standalone piece of the project.  Yes, it would need to read the database to get the information from the route descriptions (the CSV and WPT files), but I see this as something where you can upload your .list file, view it in a map/tabular environment, and your result is a new version of your .list file.  I envision something where you could zoom in on places where you are looking to add your new segments, and do something like drag from a starting waypoint to an ending waypoint.  It would then show you what segment would be added and if you approve, it would be added to your .list file.

One of the most important features (and one I know was in the works on the existing site) is the ability for users to be able to upload their own .list files.  There are a surprising number of complications that arise to support this, most importantly that there would need to be some sort of user/password system to ensure users could only update their own .lists, and that we would want to avoid the potential for spam and malicious submissions that could expose security flaws or result in denial of service attacks.  But this does seem like an important feature, and one, if in place now on the current system, would allow the users of the site to continue using it to update their travels, even if no highway data updates were able to take place.

Then there's the issue raised in some recent posts about who can update the highway data.  I think there are many models out there, with varying degrees of success, where some sort of trusted data is maintained by a community.  It seems such a model could work with this project.  We already had this, though in a limited fashion, with the peer review process of new systems, but the single person bottleneck remains for getting those reviewed updates live in the system.  The project could expand more quickly the more people who were able to review and correct existing data and propose new data to be added, but I'd hate to see the overall quality of the data (accuracy of routes, appropriate density of routes, consistency in naming conventions, etc.) suffer.  There are also issues of making sure sources are cited, and sources used are not copyrighted.

Even if the current system returns to a more active status, I think efforts to replicate and possibly improve upon its functionality are worthwhile.  But even if we could find a few people with the appropriate skills and experience to put some time into it, it would be quite some time before we had something approaching what's there.  As I said before, I am holding out hope for the existing system and that it will evolve into a system without that single person bottleneck.  If something like a .list editor were implemented, or a nicer highway browser, or new ways to view your travels, they might be adopted by the existing site.


Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Laura on February 27, 2015, 10:35:17 AM

Quote from: Duke87 on February 26, 2015, 09:41:00 PM
Quote from: english si on February 26, 2015, 03:34:38 PM
But I shouldn't have done them as it wasn't mine to do

I feel like this in and of itself is toxic philosophy. Why have a turf war? If someone is willing to put in the effort to create something, their work ought to be appreciated and, if possible, used.

This times infinity.

Maybe I've spent too long helping Mike with Open Street Map, but I personally believe open data access is superior to perfect data. There will always be kinks to be worked out - but by working together, they can be solved.

What obstacles remain in allowing everyone to upload their own lists or to add additional admins that can do it? Personally, the "week" wait before was incredibly slow, and it was annoying to have to resubmit data after a week when nothing happened.

If Tim is busy, he should have other contributors step in and fix it.


iPhone
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: IMGoph on February 27, 2015, 11:59:15 AM
Quote from: Laura on February 27, 2015, 10:35:17 AM

If Tim is busy, he should have other contributors step in and fix it.


Amen. I sympathize with the fact that life can become quite difficult in the blink of an eye, but short of being physically incapacitated, I can't see why he can't have found 5 minutes sometime in the last 4 months to pen a short public note that says "I can't do this anymore, is there one of you I can pass the reins to, please?"

And if he doesn't wish (or need) to give up control of the site entirely, why can't he post another one-minute note somewhere that says "I realize that I owe no one anything with regard to this free service I've created, but I realize many of you love it and would hate to see it disappear. Trust me, it will be actively updated again soon. I have no timeline, but I'll let you know as soon as I can, and I promise a brief note posted here [wherever that is] once a month."

It would be so easy to do, and it's absolutely perplexing why it hasn't been done.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on February 27, 2015, 02:21:46 PM
Quote from: IMGoph on February 27, 2015, 11:59:15 AMIt would be so easy to do, and it's absolutely perplexing why it hasn't been done.
Yes, the lack of a posting is the worst.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on February 27, 2015, 09:36:12 PM
Back when we were first looking at potentially re-creating CHM, we actually managed to parse the data and .list files as well as re-create the maps with JavaScript and the HTML5 Canvas tag.  Here's a render: http://nysroads.com/chm/66in.htm

We haven't really done development since the last contact with Tim made us question whether the side was all dead or just mostly dead.  I don't know when the effort might resume.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: SD Mapman on February 27, 2015, 10:31:56 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 27, 2015, 09:36:12 PM
We haven't really done development since the last contact with Tim made us question whether the side was all dead or just mostly dead.
Quote from: Miracle MaxNow, mostly dead means slightly alive.
I couldn't resist that.  :)

But seriously, I hope this gets back up... in some form or fashion.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Duke87 on February 28, 2015, 03:02:23 PM
Honestly I think at this point resuming efforts to rebuild might be wise. I get the sense we are up against someone who wants to continue the project eventually but lacks the ability to do so and also lacks the willingness to admit it because he'd rather let it fizzle and whither than pass the reins to someone else.

CHM from the beginning has been operated as one person's personal project and we are now seeing the end game of that when said person cannot or does not want to continue it. Everyone went along with it because for a while it worked and was the path of least resistance but it never should have been done this way. It is a project that serves a whole community and it is high time we treat it as such, with decisions made by community consensus and editing open to whoever is capable and willing.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on February 28, 2015, 03:37:22 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 28, 2015, 03:02:23 PM
CHM from the beginning has been operated as one person's personal project and we are now seeing the end game of that when said person cannot or does not want to continue it. Everyone went along with it because for a while it worked and was the path of least resistance but it never should have been done this way. It is a project that serves a whole community and it is high time we treat it as such, with decisions made by community consensus and editing open to whoever is capable and willing.

Does how the AARoads Forum started and evolved, into a multi-collaborator effort growing beyond the original AARoads team, offer any lessons here?  I ask the question as someone who didn't sign up here until it was well-established, so I don't know much of the story other than a little bit about one crisis overcome (before my time) to reassert collective control over this project. rickmastfan67, who is both a administrator here and a CHM collaborator, and Bickendan, a moderator here who once was active at CHM, might be in a particularly good position to comment. 
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on February 28, 2015, 03:42:59 PM
I suppose this is kinda like the V'Ger incident, but more prolonged and without all the battles.

As grateful as I am to Tim for creating and maintaining the CHM site for many years, his "my way or the highway" (pun not intended) attitude and insistence on keeping things locked down has been an issue for a while.  Updates would probably be faster on a CHM replacement simple because the arguments with Tim that held up things like the Vermont state highways wouldn't occur.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on February 28, 2015, 04:08:48 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 28, 2015, 03:42:59 PM
Updates would probably be faster on a CHM replacement simple because the arguments with Tim that held up things like the Vermont state highways wouldn't occur.

To be fair, Tim's central control over the project did help maintain a consistent approach and "look and feel" of various regions covered by the project, from Alaska to Azerbaijan (any ambitions to expand beyond North America and Europe -- Tim made a point of not letting CHM become too U.S.-centric, something important to him and IMO a good ideal to pursue -- petered out as the project outgrew the current management model). A multi-member management team would have to deal with similar issues, though perhaps with different results.

My own management style in my previous career, especially on keeping the collaborator team small, in some way eerily resembles Tim's. Of course, in my previous job it helped that I had people working for me earning six-figure salaries, who worked evenings, weekends, and holidays in addition to the usual 40-hour work week as needed to get the job done. Access to a multi-million dollar budget (paid in part by the U.S. taxpayers among you) also helped, as well as a management above me who could gently (or not) transition one of my projects when it grew to require a much larger team than I could manage on my own.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on February 28, 2015, 05:19:40 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 28, 2015, 03:02:23 PM
Honestly I think at this point resuming efforts to rebuild might be wise. I get the sense we are up against someone who wants to continue the project eventually but lacks the ability to do so and also lacks the willingness to admit it because he'd rather let it fizzle and whither than pass the reins to someone else.
This, absolutely this.
Quote from: vdeane on February 28, 2015, 03:42:59 PMI suppose this is kinda like the V'Ger incident, but more prolonged and without all the battles.
I'm not getting this reference.
QuoteAs grateful as I am to Tim for creating and maintaining the CHM site for many years, his "my way or the highway" (pun not intended) attitude and insistence on keeping things locked down has been an issue for a while.  Updates would probably be faster on a CHM replacement simple because the arguments with Tim that held up things like the Vermont state highways wouldn't occur.
We'd have been up to August's submissions on the last round of ingested highway data updates if Tim had trusted that I had done my research (which took a good few hours, to add to my annoyance at this) correctly (OK, I only gave him a summary of the process I had gone through, but still), on a July update, rather than spend an hour wondering why 2009 GMSV images weren't showing 201x route changes and another hour writing a response to my submission having a go at me. :no:

And goodness, I forgot that Vermont stuff. Reading it, it just trailed off with no one agreeing to either of Tim's proposed solutions, voicing their disagreement and then hearing nothing in response. It's that sort of thing that makes me somewhat hope for a new site.
Quote from: oscar on February 28, 2015, 04:08:48 PMTo be fair, Tim's central control over the project did help maintain a consistent approach and "look and feel" of various regions covered by the project
True, but it caused tensions when the local way of doing things didn't fit into how Tim would like it done - as seen in the Vermont debacle about town-maintained state routes. Or many of the transatlantic clashes I had about the way things worked in Britain. The manual for creating files is enough to get consistency (or ought to be - often Tim, if he was peer reviewing, was arbitrary and inconsistent as to what was important - cf the bridge row I had with him and eventually won when others said that he had told them to remove points they had put in because of that instruction), it doesn't need a heavy-handed approach to peer reviewing or treating every state highway network (or British A roads, etc) like they were Virginia's state highways.

Absolutely there needs to be standards and a reasonable level of conformity, but little pockets of individuality within that are good.
Quote(any ambitions to expand beyond North America and Europe -- Tim made a point of not letting CHM become too U.S.-centric, something important to him and IMO a good ideal to pursue -- petered out as the project outgrew the current management model)
I have some (well, most of 'phase 1 and phase 2 systems' complete) Malaysian, Singaporean and Hong Kong routes sitting on my computer. Plus some work on Moroccan, Algerian and Tunisian motorways and Asian Highways in countries that also have E roads (only got half of Turkey and Russia, but have all the rest done).

Also, on the European front, I have further systems for most of my European regions (most of which were complete, or nearly when I finished them, but will need polishing) as well as some of the microstates. Andorra CG roads, Maltese 1/2 digit Roads, Finnish Vt and Kt roads, Belarussian M roads, Ukrainian M roads, Moldovan M roads, Latvian A roads, Estonian MT roads, Lithuanian A roads, Romanian DN roads, Belgian B and R roads, Aland Vt and Kt Roads, French N roads, Dutch N roads (2 digit and perhaps 3 provinces worth of 3-digit). Oh, and Danish PR roads, which isn't one of my regions (ditto Eurasian ones).

Of course, none of this will see the light of day on the existing site.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NE2 on February 28, 2015, 05:31:40 PM
What's the problem with town maintained routes? They're signed and state-recognized, so they exist.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: SD Mapman on February 28, 2015, 07:10:15 PM
Quote from: NE2 on February 28, 2015, 05:31:40 PM
What's the problem with town maintained routes? They're signed and state-recognized, so they exist.
I agree, there shouldn't be one. Although, sometimes the state doesn't recognize them officially, but that's no excuse for throwing them out.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: hbelkins on February 28, 2015, 08:16:01 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 28, 2015, 03:42:59 PM
As grateful as I am to Tim for creating and maintaining the CHM site for many years, his "my way or the highway" (pun not intended) attitude and insistence on keeping things locked down has been an issue for a while.

If it's his site -- if he's paying the hosting and domain registration fees and doing the work -- then he can do whatever he pleases, and others are free to participate or not. I don't participate because it's not in the format that I prefer, but I don't have the right to demand a clickable map format or demand that he turn the site over to others who would manage it differently.

He doesn't owe the roadgeek community in general, or users of the site in particular, anything. He pays the bills, he does the work, and he can set the rules.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on February 28, 2015, 08:55:04 PM
Ugh, Vermont...
Quote from: NE2 on February 28, 2015, 05:31:40 PM
What's the problem with town maintained routes? They're signed and state-recognized, so they exist.
THIS. It really is this simple.
Instead, Tim got hung up on the phrase "Town Highways" that VTRANS uses to refer to certain classes of roads, without having an adequate understanding of how these roads fit into the larger picture of road classification statewide. That and the peculiarity of how some town-maintained segments were signed with a different style shield caused Tim to insist that town-maintained routes should be part of a different route system, and not included. (Really, the oddity of the signing issue aside, it's no different from the town-maintained state routes in a number of other places, such as ME and NH.)
All of Froggie's and my (and others') best efforts to convince Tim otherwise just seemed to hit a brick wall; eventually we (or, I, at least) just got worn out and stopped fighting.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on February 28, 2015, 09:58:32 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 28, 2015, 08:16:01 PMIf it's his site -- if he's paying the hosting and domain registration fees and doing the work -- then he can do whatever he pleases, and others are free to participate or not.
other than 'doing the work', we all agree. Yes, Tim did a lot of the work, but by no means all of it (though he'd have done less work/more fruitful work if he was more trusting that his team knew what they were doing and thus didn't create busy work for himself with arguments about "Town Highways", or duplicate work already done by others). I'm pretty sure better hosting was offered and turned down in the past too. It is his site, and yes, he can do what he wants - thats a key reason why he refused the offer of better hosting, kept everything going through himself, etc.

He, absolutely, doesn't owe the general users anything, but he does owe the people who've put in many hours on to making his site better 5 minutes to post a forum message giving us some sort of information, rather than uncertainty about the project's future.

That the collaborators, if they can, still want to work with Tim, despite himself, shows that we do very much agree with him that the project is his baby. Goodness me, it's March - four months ago in November, we were similarly hopeless and then there was the tiniest couple of flickers of life that means we still haven't given up.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Duke87 on March 01, 2015, 12:39:28 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 28, 2015, 08:16:01 PM
If it's his site -- if he's paying the hosting and domain registration fees and doing the work -- then he can do whatever he pleases, and others are free to participate or not.

Yes, but nobody is proposing that we try to take the site away from him. That... wouldn't even be possible since the domain is his. The aim is to build a new site around the same premise.

The datasets for the highways themselves were assembled by collaborators (not by Tim), and several of said collaborators are more than willing to get on board with a new project. Indeed, a couple of them did the instant it started getting discussed back in December.  So the route data we have access to and every right to use and wouldn't need to recreate. The work would be to rebuild all the back end stuff (map and stat generation, site navigation, highway browser) which is Tim's and therefore we can't just grab and plagiarize.

Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 01, 2015, 12:56:34 AM
Quote from: oscar on February 28, 2015, 03:37:22 PM
Does how the AARoads Forum started and evolved, into a multi-collaborator effort growing beyond the original AARoads team, offer any lessons here?  I ask the question as someone who didn't sign up here until it was well-established, so I don't know much of the story other than a little bit about one crisis overcome (before my time) to reassert collective control over this project. rickmastfan67, who is both a administrator here and a CHM collaborator, and Bickendan, a moderator here who once was active at CHM, might be in a particularly good position to comment.

I can't really comment about the V'Ger incident since I arrived well after that.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 01, 2015, 10:33:28 AM
Is this thread now the primary place for those interested in implementing new CHM functionality to discuss it?  While I continue to hold out hope for Tim's site, I want to help where I can moving forward on an alternative.

I can't offer a ton of time right now, but I can offer some development or hosting space in my hostmonster account and/or on my FreeBSD system if and when that's useful.

Has any consideration been given to storing code and data for such project on a site like Github, where many could easily contribute?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 01, 2015, 10:40:31 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 01, 2015, 12:39:28 AM
The datasets for the highways themselves were assembled by collaborators (not by Tim), and several of said collaborators are more than willing to get on board with a new project. Indeed, a couple of them did the instant it started getting discussed back in December.  So the route data we have access to and every right to use and wouldn't need to recreate. The work would be to rebuild all the back end stuff (map and stat generation, site navigation, highway browser) which is Tim's and therefore we can't just grab and plagiarize.

Many have contributed to the datasets, including Tim (who I'd guess is either at or near the top of the list of 'most waypoints plotted').  I wholeheartedly give permission to any new project to use the data sets I've created, but it's probably best to get everyone's permission before using them in a new site.  Of course, it's probably a while before a new site would be ready to go into a "production" mode and there's plenty of data that could be used during design, development, and testing.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 01, 2015, 01:27:05 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 01, 2015, 10:40:31 AM
Many have contributed to the datasets, including Tim (who I'd guess is either at or near the top of the list of 'most waypoints plotted').  I wholeheartedly give permission to any new project to use the data sets I've created, but it's probably best to get everyone's permission before using them in a new site.

Complicating things is that some datasets have been extensively revised by team members other than their original authors. For example, I extensively overhauled the datasets for North America's Arctic jurisdictions, and made a lot of updates (including but not limited to point tweaks to reflect the latest online mapping) in British Columbia and Saskatchewan. Few of the original plotted points in those datasets remain intact.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 01, 2015, 02:01:07 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 01, 2015, 01:27:05 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 01, 2015, 10:40:31 AM
Many have contributed to the datasets, including Tim (who I'd guess is either at or near the top of the list of 'most waypoints plotted').  I wholeheartedly give permission to any new project to use the data sets I've created, but it's probably best to get everyone's permission before using them in a new site.

Complicating things is that some datasets have been extensively revised by team members other than their original authors. For example, I extensively overhauled the datasets for North America's Arctic jurisdictions, and made a lot of updates (including but not limited to point tweaks to reflect the latest online mapping) in British Columbia and Saskatchewan. Few of the original plotted points in those datasets remain intact.

That's often the case with the earliest routes -- I think Tim was on his own with the original Interstate system and a small number of people worked on US numbered highways.  Many of those were significantly revamped by those who later added state highways (for example, I did a lot of work on existing files from NY, MA, and NM in the process of plotting those).

On the upside, if we can get more people involved, some older data might be able to be re-created as sort of practice before they get down to adding new regions, systems, etc.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: froggie on March 01, 2015, 02:29:28 PM
As the original curator of some states, I would be interested if this project continues forward, though my programming skills are effectively nil.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Bickendan on March 01, 2015, 05:38:09 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 01, 2015, 12:56:34 AM
Quote from: oscar on February 28, 2015, 03:37:22 PM
Does how the AARoads Forum started and evolved, into a multi-collaborator effort growing beyond the original AARoads team, offer any lessons here?  I ask the question as someone who didn't sign up here until it was well-established, so I don't know much of the story other than a little bit about one crisis overcome (before my time) to reassert collective control over this project. rickmastfan67, who is both a administrator here and a CHM collaborator, and Bickendan, a moderator here who once was active at CHM, might be in a particularly good position to comment.

I can't really comment about the V'Ger incident since I arrived well after that.
Same here, but in the interest of a good story, I am curious, lol

Quote from: oscar on March 01, 2015, 01:27:05 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 01, 2015, 10:40:31 AM
Many have contributed to the datasets, including Tim (who I'd guess is either at or near the top of the list of 'most waypoints plotted').  I wholeheartedly give permission to any new project to use the data sets I've created, but it's probably best to get everyone's permission before using them in a new site.

Complicating things is that some datasets have been extensively revised by team members other than their original authors. For example, I extensively overhauled the datasets for North America's Arctic jurisdictions, and made a lot of updates (including but not limited to point tweaks to reflect the latest online mapping) in British Columbia and Saskatchewan. Few of the original plotted points in those datasets remain intact.
Being the person who did all the preliminary work for British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Yukon, and Northwest Territories (except for BC 1, done by Tim, which I then revised), I'm glad you were able to give them the pass through they needed. I believe you were also revising my work on the California system (which had never gotten to the point of activation).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NE2 on March 01, 2015, 05:39:55 PM
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8172 has a bit about Vigger.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on March 01, 2015, 05:59:04 PM
Regarding V'Ger: Voyager was the original admin for the forum, "hired" to create/run everything.  The forum was a very different place then - Forum Games was its own forum, with things like "Guess the Highway" and "Guess the aerial image" being there, and the meets forum only being added over Voyager's objections.  Threads like "Voyager's Cosmic Bbar" also existed.  Tensions between Voyager (who had invited his teenage friends onto the forum) and the AA Roads staff kept rising, up until the point where he and Alex banned each other and sabotaged the server.  Voyager attempted to use his backup to set up another site before he was convinced to stand down and pass the reigns on to agentsteel53.  Before the site got back online, however, he was banned (with his username subsequently changed to V'Ger) after ranting on MTR about the whole thing.  At this point the Forum Games forum was deleted (causing everyone's post count to drop by 50-75%) and his friends left.

Quote from: Jim on March 01, 2015, 10:33:28 AM
Is this thread now the primary place for those interested in implementing new CHM functionality to discuss it?  While I continue to hold out hope for Tim's site, I want to help where I can moving forward on an alternative.

I can't offer a ton of time right now, but I can offer some development or hosting space in my hostmonster account and/or on my FreeBSD system if and when that's useful.

Has any consideration been given to storing code and data for such project on a site like Github, where many could easily contribute?

I would guess that this thread is now the place.  Facebook was the venue before, but this thread can obviously reach more people.  And I did indeed raise the thought of using something like Git.

I'm interested in continuing to be involved in a new site, though I don't have as much time as I estimated back in December.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: hbelkins on March 01, 2015, 07:10:06 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 01, 2015, 05:59:04 PMand the meets forum only being added over Voyager's objections

I have to take some of the blame for that. I posted a notice for my Charleston, WV meet in two or three regional forums so everyone who was within reasonable attending distance would see it, got chastised a bit for overposting, someone suggested a meets board, and it was on.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 01, 2015, 08:13:18 PM
Quote from: Hoss6884 on March 01, 2015, 05:54:22 PM
I'm interested in helping with a spin-off site if someone can show me the ropes.

Thanks. Just realize that a spin-off site would not only have to overcome technical programming challenges, but also deal with "softer" issues about how to get a larger team to work smoothly together. As I noted above, Tim's approach seems to have been to keep the team small and expanded only with great reluctance. That's easier to manage and "show the ropes", but limited in what it can do since it depends on volunteers who generally have jobs, perhaps spouses/significant others/children, and other personal interests. My own "management style" is no better, especially without the advantage I once had pre-retirement of a well-paid full-time staff. So I have no useful advice on the management issues of scaling up the enterprise, other than to not make me the manager, and look instead to how the AARoads forum or similar enterprises are managed for a possibly better management model.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Scott5114 on March 01, 2015, 08:44:02 PM
The AARoads forum is managed collaboratively by everyone who has an admin or mod title under their name. For smaller issues, we are empowered to take whatever action we feel is necessary. If controversy arises, or for larger issues like bans, we shift to a group discussion in a private section of the forum. In the rare case that we cannot resolve the issue as a group, Alex has the ultimate executive authority and breaks the deadlock (he usually prefers to let the forum run itself otherwise).

It's a model that works pretty well for a small site like this, and I would imagine CHM. It's important that all of the moderators trust one another. You also have to acknowledge that "consensus" does not mean "unanimous" and not allow a minority to gum up the process (as frequently happens on Wikipedia).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Zeffy on March 01, 2015, 09:00:54 PM
I'm not good with drawing the map or anything like that, but I do know a lot of HTML, JS, PHP and MySQL to potentially allow a way more robust system that doesn't involve sending a list file (think a "control panel" where you can update your clinched highways).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 01, 2015, 09:30:40 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on March 01, 2015, 09:00:54 PM
I'm not good with drawing the map or anything like that

All we did was take coordinates from the center points of intersections/interchanges off of OSM and put them into a text file.  We didn't 'draw' a map or anything like that.  We left that part up the the software to plot the points to connect a route.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NE2 on March 01, 2015, 09:46:17 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 01, 2015, 09:30:40 PM
All we did was take coordinates from the center points of intersections/interchanges off of OSM and put them into a text file.
Technically, that means the entire file including modifications by other people is under whatever license OSM was at the time (either cc-by-sa or ODbL, both of which are share-alike/viral).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: sipes23 on March 01, 2015, 09:53:32 PM
I'm not much of a programmer, but I'm pretty good at proofreading. If you need my skills as the project develops, drop me a line.

In the list of features I'd like to see, I'd like to see some sort of button feature for entry though it's not critical. I think having to compile a list and e-mail it kept the numbers down. Being able to compile the list and submitting it directly to the site seems BIG to me. I'd also be very keen to be able to re-use my CHM list as-is. I'd also like the ability to download a human-browsable backup given what has happened.

If rail were added on a second layer or another project, I'd also be *very* interested.

For what it's worth, I'd be willing to pay to have a site like this available. Maybe $10 or $20 a year to make sure the lights stay on. I've had too many sites that track things for me go dark in the last year.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 01, 2015, 10:51:58 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 01, 2015, 09:46:17 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 01, 2015, 09:30:40 PM
All we did was take coordinates from the center points of intersections/interchanges off of OSM and put them into a text file.
Technically, that means the entire file including modifications by other people is under whatever license OSM was at the time (either cc-by-sa or ODbL, both of which are share-alike/viral).

We centered them on the map, not from the actual nodes coordinates data.  We also got a lot of coordinates from GIS data from the various road departments.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 02, 2015, 12:04:05 AM
Quote from: jimIs this thread now the primary place for those interested in implementing new CHM functionality to discuss it?
I suppose it may as well be, for lack of a better place. IMO. (Of course, I type this without having read all the way down the thread. It could be people say otherwise...)

QuoteHas any consideration been given to storing code and data for such project on a site like Github, where many could easily contribute?
I think someone mentioned that back in December -- possibly Valerie? I know little about it, but would be on board. It sounds like a Good Thing.

QuoteI wholeheartedly give permission to any new project to use the data sets I've created
Ditto.

Quote from: oscarComplicating things is that some datasets have been extensively revised by team members other than their original authors. For example, I extensively overhauled the datasets for North America's Arctic jurisdictions, and made a lot of updates (including but not limited to point tweaks to reflect the latest online mapping) in British Columbia and Saskatchewan. Few of the original plotted points in those datasets remain intact.
True. Same goes for me and Alberta and Manitoba. These datasets are almost a whole new work...

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 01, 2015, 10:51:58 PMWe centered them on the map, not from the actual nodes coordinates data.  We also got a lot of coordinates from GIS data from the various road departments.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fpolls%2F399000%2F399518_1268853308676_full.jpg&hash=2339b582c3cdfda45596d946ea930eaf6431d863)
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 02, 2015, 01:35:15 AM
Quote from: sipes23 on March 01, 2015, 09:53:32 PMI think having to compile a list and e-mail it kept the numbers down. Being able to compile the list and submitting it directly to the site seems BIG to me.
This. 100%.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 02, 2015, 08:16:28 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 02, 2015, 12:04:05 AM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 01, 2015, 10:51:58 PMWe centered them on the map, not from the actual nodes coordinates data.  We also got a lot of coordinates from GIS data from the various road departments.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fpolls%2F399000%2F399518_1268853308676_full.jpg&hash=2339b582c3cdfda45596d946ea930eaf6431d863)

Think you can explain it better? :P
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 02, 2015, 02:12:22 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 02, 2015, 08:16:28 AM
Think you can explain it better? :P
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fpolls%2F399000%2F399518_1268853308676_full.jpg&hash=2339b582c3cdfda45596d946ea930eaf6431d863)
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rschen7754 on March 02, 2015, 10:44:09 PM
If direct uploading is the way to go, then I assume some sort of spam prevention will be necessary.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 02, 2015, 11:21:28 PM
Quote from: rschen7754 on March 02, 2015, 10:44:09 PM
If direct uploading is the way to go, then I assume some sort of spam prevention will be necessary.

Well. perhaps more like setting up user accounts (with webmaster approval, to help screen out the jokers), with password protection to keep kiddies from easily screwing around with user data. Also perhaps some kind of automatic screening of submitted files, to keep viruses or other malware from hitting the server.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 03, 2015, 12:37:11 AM
How about the option of editing the .list via a form instead of uploading?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Sub-Urbanite on March 03, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Is it really needed though? The County Counting site seems to do relatively fine without much adult supervision.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 03, 2015, 02:05:31 PM
Quote from: NickCPDX on March 03, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Is it really needed though? The County Counting site seems to do relatively fine without much adult supervision.

I agree, the county counting site (mob-rule.com) does the things I outlined above with minimal human involvement, except it doesn't process user files so the virus/malware-checking function isn't needed there.

CHM has at least four users with over 4000 lines in their list files, and many others have over a thousand. They should not have to re-enter their data manually via an interactive interface (far more complex than mob-rule.com's, which only has to deal with about 3600 data points). So a CHM successor should retain some file submission capability for the sake of backward compatibility, and also until it is supplemented (my preference) or replaced with a new interactive interface after key existing CHM features are replicated and working smoothly. 
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: hbelkins on March 03, 2015, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: NickCPDX on March 03, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Is it really needed though? The County Counting site seems to do relatively fine without much adult supervision.

And it's also clickable. :-D
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: sipes23 on March 03, 2015, 05:00:25 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 03, 2015, 02:05:31 PM
Quote from: NickCPDX on March 03, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Is it really needed though? The County Counting site seems to do relatively fine without much adult supervision.

I agree, the county counting site (mob-rule.com) does the things I outlined above with minimal human involvement, except it doesn't process user files so the virus/malware-checking function isn't needed there.

CHM has at least four users with over 4000 lines in their list files, and many others have over a thousand. They should not have to re-enter their data manually via an interactive interface (far more complex than mob-rule.com's, which only has to deal with about 3600 data points). So a CHM successor should retain some file submission capability for the sake of backward compatibility, even if an interactive interface were added as an option.

Would it be possible to scrape the old .list files from the current CHM site and import them as-is? Then when the new site is open, allow for old users to claim their data with zero reentry. Of course, I have zero idea what programming *that* would take.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Thing 342 on March 03, 2015, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: sipes23 on March 03, 2015, 05:00:25 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 03, 2015, 02:05:31 PM
Quote from: NickCPDX on March 03, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Is it really needed though? The County Counting site seems to do relatively fine without much adult supervision.

I agree, the county counting site (mob-rule.com) does the things I outlined above with minimal human involvement, except it doesn't process user files so the virus/malware-checking function isn't needed there.

CHM has at least four users with over 4000 lines in their list files, and many others have over a thousand. They should not have to re-enter their data manually via an interactive interface (far more complex than mob-rule.com's, which only has to deal with about 3600 data points). So a CHM successor should retain some file submission capability for the sake of backward compatibility, even if an interactive interface were added as an option.

Would it be possible to scrape the old .list files from the current CHM site and import them as-is? Then when the new site is open, allow for old users to claim their data with zero reentry. Of course, I have zero idea what programming *that* would take.
Not much. The existing .list files are machine parsable.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Wadsteckel on March 03, 2015, 07:24:36 PM
Hi Everyone,

I know....should've been here a lot sooner.  For some reason, I thought I was when I wasn't.

Seeing how my life has been in the past year, I can sympathize with Tim and whatever reason he has for having CHM in its current state.  But, with my new career, being able to travel more roads than I could have ever dreamed of doing before, I'm excited to hear that others are planning to try to keep the idea going at a new venue.

Looking forward to see where this journey takes us.

Regards, tonight from Mt. Vernon, IL....
-Ed S
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: hbelkins on March 03, 2015, 07:37:22 PM
Quote from: Wadsteckel on March 03, 2015, 07:24:36 PM
Regards, tonight from Mt. Vernon, IL....
-Ed S

How was the Ale-8? ;-)
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Duke87 on March 03, 2015, 08:54:01 PM
Before we get too far ahead of ourselves here, let's consider the basics.

1) Rendering maps in Javascript has been done and made to work. Key task: whatever is necessary to make it work for all regions.
2) Calculating stats (mi/km clinched, % clinched) has not been done. Key task: write code that can do this and display the results in a webpage.
3) We don't have a highway browser. Key task: write code that can at least provide a rudimentary highway browser by listing names and coordinates for points and plotting them on a map.
4) We may not be able to use all existing route data. Key task: determine what we can use and recreate what we cannot.
- 4a) Existing data has not been updated in a while. Key task: Fix errors and make necessary updates

Tasks 1, 2, and 3 fall onto people with programming skills. Task 4/4a falls onto anyone who wants to help but cannot program. Anything else is not needed for basic functionality of the service so if it is worked on now it won't be able to be used until after these four things are accomplished.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rschen7754 on March 03, 2015, 09:20:14 PM
Quote from: NickCPDX on March 03, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Is it really needed though? The County Counting site seems to do relatively fine without much adult supervision.

Well, all it takes is for one spammer to find the site and add it to their spambot programs... from my experience as a Wikimedia steward, even foreign language Wikipedias in languages you have never heard of get spammed.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 03, 2015, 10:04:26 PM
Quote from: Thing 342 on March 03, 2015, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: sipes23 on March 03, 2015, 05:00:25 PM
Would it be possible to scrape the old .list files from the current CHM site and import them as-is? Then when the new site is open, allow for old users to claim their data with zero reentry. Of course, I have zero idea what programming *that* would take.
Not much. The existing .list files are machine parsable.

Right - it would be pretty much trivial to write something to convert .list files to data in whatever format a new project uses (assuming it does not use .list).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on March 03, 2015, 10:18:25 PM
The thing is, some of us have up to date .list files on our hard drives, but woefully out of date CHM pages.  Some of us also maintained data for systems not yet activated in separate .list files.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 03, 2015, 10:21:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 03, 2015, 10:18:25 PM
The thing is, some of us have up to date .list files on our hard drives, but woefully out of date CHM pages.  Some of us also maintained data for systems not yet activated in separate .list files.

I see no reason those couldn't also be converted, should that become necessary.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Thing 342 on March 03, 2015, 10:40:53 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 03, 2015, 08:54:01 PM
Before we get too far ahead of ourselves here, let's consider the basics.
...
3) We don't have a highway browser. Key task: write code that can at least provide a rudimentary highway browser by listing names and coordinates for points and plotting them on a map.
...

I was working on a few rudimentary concepts for this earlier, but got stuck on how to store the waypoint data. Can anyone send me a sample of the waypoint data currently provided to CHM for me to look at?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 04, 2015, 12:02:32 AM
Quote from: oscarCHM has at least four users with over 4000 lines in their list files, and many others have over a thousand. They should not have to re-enter their data manually via an interactive interface ... So a CHM successor should retain some file submission capability for the sake of backward compatibility, and also until it is supplemented (my preference) or replaced with a new interactive interface after key existing CHM features are replicated and working smoothly.
Using a form to edit the list data, as opposed to uploading, shouldn't be too painful. Copy your existing .list file from a text editor, paste into the form, and blammo!
Count me as another in favor of eventually supplementing list editing with a clickable interface, but not replacing.

Quote from: sipes23Would it be possible to scrape the old .list files from the current CHM site and import them as-is? Then when the new site is open, allow for old users to claim their data with zero reentry. Of course, I have zero idea what programming *that* would take.
Possible, yes. Easy, even. But would we want to? I think it would be wiser to let old users decide for themselves whether they want to participate on any new site.

Quote from: duke87Before we get too far ahead of ourselves here, let's consider the basics.

1) Rendering maps in Javascript has been done and made to work. Key task: whatever is necessary to make it work for all regions.
It should already work for all regions. The only hangup would be maps straddling 180 degrees longitude. But, how likely is this to show up in any real world situations on the maps? We can likely sweep this under the rug for a good while.

Quote2) Calculating stats (mi/km clinched, % clinched) has not been done. Key task: write code that can do this and display the results in a webpage.
Multiplex detection makes this more complicated than it seems at first glance. But it's nothing insurmountable.

Quote3) We don't have a highway browser. Key task: write code that can at least provide a rudimentary highway browser by listing names and coordinates for points and plotting them on a map.
This should actually be pretty easy to do. At least, making the equivalent of hwymap.php. I made a program back in the day to parse a .WPT file and spit out a hwy browser map page. But, that was with the Google Maps API v.2, which has since been deprecated in favor of v.3. Still though -- piece of cake. View Source is our friend. :)
The equivalent of selecthwys.php, I've never really given any thought to. This will be dependent on a database of route systems, regions and subregions.

Quote4) We may not be able to use all existing route data. Key task: determine what we can use and recreate what we cannot.
To clarify: are you just thinking in terms of data that may not be OKed by its original creator (most notably, Tim, potentially) for use in a new site?
Or are you also concerned about early route data created from commercial tile maps? Back in 2010, we made the decision to switch to OSM to avoid potentially running afoul of commercial map services' terms of use. But older data, E.G. the U.S. Interstates, were still left in the system as-is, and not remade from scratch using OSM data.

Quote4a) Existing data has not been updated in a while. Key task: Fix errors and make necessary updates
For my part, I've kept on top of changes to the regions that I maintain. I believe some other(s) upthread said they've been doing the same. (Si and/or Oscar?)


Regarding storing a user's clinch data in a format other than a .list, or pretty close functional equivalent... We would have to take care to avoid corrupting a user's data to the greatest extent possible in cases of a route being truncated, or relocated at the end or in the middle, especially in cases where new waypoints are added. Nota Bene.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: SD Mapman on March 04, 2015, 12:27:54 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 03, 2015, 08:54:01 PM
4) We may not be able to use all existing route data. Key task: determine what we can use and recreate what we cannot.
- 4a) Existing data has not been updated in a while. Key task: Fix errors and make necessary updates
I can help with that; that is, if you'd like me to.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 04, 2015, 12:28:57 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 04, 2015, 12:02:32 AM
Quote4) We may not be able to use all existing route data. Key task: determine what we can use and recreate what we cannot.
To clarify: are you just thinking in terms of data that may not be OKed by its original creator (most notably, Tim, potentially) for use in a new site?
Or are you also concerned about early route data created from commercial tile maps? Back in 2010, we made the decision to switch to OSM to avoid potentially running afoul of commercial map services' terms of use. But older data, E.G. the U.S. Interstates, were still left in the system as-is, and not remade from scratch using OSM data.

I know I overhauled every Interstate in a state that I was responsible for when I cleaned up US Highways.  So, my states should be a-ok in that part.

I know PA would need to be completely redone since Tim has had full control of that state from the start.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 04, 2015, 07:29:26 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 04, 2015, 12:02:32 AM
Quote4) We may not be able to use all existing route data. Key task: determine what we can use and recreate what we cannot.
To clarify: are you just thinking in terms of data that may not be OKed by its original creator (most notably, Tim, potentially) for use in a new site?
Or are you also concerned about early route data created from commercial tile maps? Back in 2010, we made the decision to switch to OSM to avoid potentially running afoul of commercial map services' terms of use. But older data, E.G. the U.S. Interstates, were still left in the system as-is, and not remade from scratch using OSM data.

Quote4a) Existing data has not been updated in a while. Key task: Fix errors and make necessary updates
For my part, I've kept on top of changes to the regions that I maintain. I believe some other(s) upthread said they've been doing the same. (Si and/or Oscar?)
I have.

And I began to make a start on Tim's European regions, starting with mere updates and overhauling files I had to update for that and pushing on to a total overhaul of all routes whether they needed updates or not. I also did a (fairly minor as it was mostly OK) overhaul of Indiana when I made the state route files. I'd be happy to re-enter Tim's European systems totally if that was what was needed, but I'd much rather have it that we seek his permission as that's going to take a long time for me to remake 81,380.7 miles of data! Given Tim has probably the same amount in North America. And like a gazillion miles of borders (I have Ireland totally redone, did the Isle of Man and Jersey. Drop in the Ocean. Though I'd argue strongly that we don't need Russian/Kazakh subregions, though you would have a couple of big files in Russia like a couple of other routes - US101 in CA and Norway's E6 for instance. I'd also do away with GB ones other than the issues that would cause with .list files and I have border files anyway!) that just makes it more important.

If people want the /data folder as-online for work on 1-3 then message me and I can sent it to you, saving the trouble of scraping the site. The mapviews folders are too big to email, but the rest is about 8MB.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 04, 2015, 07:36:46 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on March 03, 2015, 10:40:53 PMI was working on a few rudimentary concepts for this earlier, but got stuck on how to store the waypoint data. Can anyone send me a sample of the waypoint data currently provided to CHM for me to look at?

Here is the Isle of Man's TT Circuit's .wpt file that I made (though as an unsigned route, it won't make it onto the site). It forms a loop.
Start http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.168087&lon=-4.477819
A1/A2 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.155687&lon=-4.501305
A5 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.155976&lon=-4.501841
A6_E http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.161366&lon=-4.504952
A6_W http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.161881&lon=-4.506884
A26 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.177105&lon=-4.554455
A23 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.183836&lon=-4.565935
A1/A3 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.202730&lon=-4.629149
A20 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.210373&lon=-4.630373
+X01 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.219331&lon=-4.630566
BraRd http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.260512&lon=-4.581513
+X02 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.274146&lon=-4.579496
A4 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.280986&lon=-4.588122
+X03 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.301326&lon=-4.567909
A10 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.309776&lon=-4.541345
A14_N http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.319452&lon=-4.491863
A17 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.323031&lon=-4.472895
B14 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.319978&lon=-4.446287
A3/A18 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.322168&lon=-4.386742
A2_N http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.321054&lon=-4.385262
+X04 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.312893&lon=-4.385004
+X05 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.312893&lon=-4.376206
+X06 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.305858&lon=-4.381614
+X07 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.278080&lon=-4.443412
A14 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.250847&lon=-4.463110
B10 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.242660&lon=-4.471972
+X08 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.213786&lon=-4.479547
B12 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.207436&lon=-4.466522
+X09 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.195738&lon=-4.477444
A21 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.183108&lon=-4.475470
A2/A18 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.171742&lon=-4.467809
Finish http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.168087&lon=-4.477819


Which reminds me - would we need to create a new JS .wpt editor?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 04, 2015, 08:47:14 AM
I've been considering how the code and data for a new site should be managed, in terms of source code control.  I'm a very regular user of subversion, but I think git provides a better model for this.  If we were to house the project at Github, anyone interested could clone copies of the repository, and a relatively small number of people could commit changes back to the official copy on Github.  I think this model would work especially well for highway data, as anyone could have a copy, make changes, and submit a push request for which could then be pulled into the mainline if appropriate.  People could also essentially file "bug reports" for data that would be tracked and hopefully corrected just like software errors, then they or someone else could propose the actual fix.

I'm interested in learning more about Github anyway (in fact, my software engineering students are currently working through a lab that introduces them to the basics), and would be willing to invest some time in coming up with a proposed model for this, if it seems to others like a reasonable way to proceed.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Thing 342 on March 04, 2015, 08:51:59 AM
Quote from: english si on March 04, 2015, 07:36:46 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on March 03, 2015, 10:40:53 PMI was working on a few rudimentary concepts for this earlier, but got stuck on how to store the waypoint data. Can anyone send me a sample of the waypoint data currently provided to CHM for me to look at?

Here is the Isle of Man's TT Circuit's .wpt file that I made (though as an unsigned route, it won't make it onto the site). It forms a loop.
Start http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.168087&lon=-4.477819
A1/A2 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.155687&lon=-4.501305
A5 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.155976&lon=-4.501841
A6_E http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.161366&lon=-4.504952
A6_W http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.161881&lon=-4.506884
A26 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.177105&lon=-4.554455
A23 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.183836&lon=-4.565935
A1/A3 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.202730&lon=-4.629149
A20 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.210373&lon=-4.630373
+X01 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.219331&lon=-4.630566
BraRd http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.260512&lon=-4.581513
+X02 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.274146&lon=-4.579496
A4 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.280986&lon=-4.588122
+X03 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.301326&lon=-4.567909
A10 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.309776&lon=-4.541345
A14_N http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.319452&lon=-4.491863
A17 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.323031&lon=-4.472895
B14 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.319978&lon=-4.446287
A3/A18 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.322168&lon=-4.386742
A2_N http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.321054&lon=-4.385262
+X04 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.312893&lon=-4.385004
+X05 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.312893&lon=-4.376206
+X06 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.305858&lon=-4.381614
+X07 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.278080&lon=-4.443412
A14 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.250847&lon=-4.463110
B10 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.242660&lon=-4.471972
+X08 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.213786&lon=-4.479547
B12 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.207436&lon=-4.466522
+X09 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.195738&lon=-4.477444
A21 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.183108&lon=-4.475470
A2/A18 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.171742&lon=-4.467809
Finish http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.168087&lon=-4.477819


Which reminds me - would we need to create a new JS .wpt editor?

This looks good enough for my purposes. Quick question, though: what are the +XNN lines used for?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 04, 2015, 08:54:12 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 04, 2015, 12:02:32 AM
Regarding storing a user's clinch data in a format other than a .list, or pretty close functional equivalent... We would have to take care to avoid corrupting a user's data to the greatest extent possible in cases of a route being truncated, or relocated at the end or in the middle, especially in cases where new waypoints are added. Nota Bene.

I'm hoping we'd end up with the .list files remaining the underlying format even if and when a different interface would be provided for editing a user's data.

There is also another behind the scenes thing that this brings up.  A lot of care was taken as routes were merged, truncated, renamed, etc., to allow users with stale .list files to maintain their stats as much as possible.  This will definitely complicate matters but as long we we're aware of it as a new mechanism for ingesting data into the system is designed and implemented, I think it's manageable.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 04, 2015, 09:00:22 AM
Before anyone invests much time in generating new .wpt files, I think they should be well aware of the naming conventions, tools, point density guidelines, guidelines for when to insert shaping points, etc.  Of course, a new system might change some of those rules but the existing ones work pretty well, in my opinion, and should be used as a starting point.  Also, make sure you're using public sources (i.e., not Google Maps), and are keeping track of those sources.

I would also like us to be better about making sure points where two roads intersect use exactly the same coordinates, not just kind of sort of close enough.  When I plot routes, I ensure this is the case by getting the points for all existing plots of intersecting routes and using those as the starting point for the new .wpt file.  This lets the waypoint editor show me a very rough initial outline to which I add the necessary other points and there it is.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: 1995hoo on March 04, 2015, 09:30:50 AM
Quote from: vdeane on March 03, 2015, 10:18:25 PM
The thing is, some of us have up to date .list files on our hard drives, but woefully out of date CHM pages.  Some of us also maintained data for systems not yet activated in separate .list files.

To some degree your first sentence is what prompted me to start this thread. I wouldn't call my CHM page "woefully" out of date, but what made me notice the problem was that I submitted updates after our Christmas trip to Florida and they never posted, even after I submitted them two or three times.

A lot of the discussion of programming and the like is going over my head. As a practical matter, it seems that if you want to be able to re-use existing .LIST files (something I'd certainly applaud), it means you have to give all the waypoints the exact same names, right? Or else you have to come up with a way of programming in the old names with some sort of "redirect" function so the software would recognize the old and new names? I think going through your own list to replace changed waypoint names would potentially be far more frustrating than simply building a new list!
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 04, 2015, 09:53:03 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 04, 2015, 09:30:50 AM
A lot of the discussion of programming and the like is going over my head. As a practical matter, it seems that if you want to be able to re-use existing .LIST files (something I'd certainly applaud), it means you have to give all the waypoints the exact same names, right? Or else you have to come up with a way of programming in the old names with some sort of "redirect" function so the software would recognize the old and new names? I think going through your own list to replace changed waypoint names would potentially be far more frustrating than simply building a new list!

I see no reason why any existing waypoint names need to be changed, with occasional exceptions where a route has changed since the last updates in August (like a lot of changes in Quebec last autumn), in which case we try to minimize list file breakage such as with "redirects". Especially for route files created by people who give permission for their re-use by a new site, no changes will presumably be the default.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 04, 2015, 10:17:38 AM
Quote from: Jim on March 04, 2015, 09:00:22 AM
This lets the waypoint editor show me a very rough initial outline to which I add the necessary other points and there it is.

"Waypoint editor" is another to-do list item. It's possible to craft route files without one, then use one of Jim's programs to double-check the result. But the waypoint editor we were using lately (internally, access limited to the CHM team) streamlined things by combining those steps.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 04, 2015, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 04, 2015, 09:53:03 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 04, 2015, 09:30:50 AM
A lot of the discussion of programming and the like is going over my head. As a practical matter, it seems that if you want to be able to re-use existing .LIST files (something I'd certainly applaud), it means you have to give all the waypoints the exact same names, right? Or else you have to come up with a way of programming in the old names with some sort of "redirect" function so the software would recognize the old and new names? I think going through your own list to replace changed waypoint names would potentially be far more frustrating than simply building a new list!

I see no reason why any existing waypoint names need to be changed, with occasional exceptions where a route has changed since the last updates in August (like a lot of changes in Quebec last autumn), in which case we try to minimize list file breakage such as with "redirects". Especially for route files created by people who give permission for their re-use by a new site, no changes will presumably be the default.

Any fixes or re-plots should continue to avoid changing names of points that are in use by anyone's list file.  This has been a goal of the existing CHM collaborators for a long time.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on March 04, 2015, 12:18:42 PM
Thinking out loud here... comments welcome.

I'm in favour of putting the code out on GitHub too.

For managing route contributions, I think that a system similar to what GitHub uses (i.e. pull requests, in which a contributor sends in changes and the project owner(s) either OK them or ask the contributor to revise and resend) could work. This would help keep at least a certain level of standards and avoid most edit wars, and if a contributor is unhappy, then they can start their own fork of the whole thing; both the code and data. Honestly, I keep seeing inconsistencies in OSM and Waze (and now even Google Maps) and it irks me a lot. Even when guidelines are well documented, they get ignored by a large part of the user base, and it's even worse on Waze because there's no requirement to document changesets; in fact, there's no way to document them at all! So a way to enforce those guidelines at least on a per-system basis could be interesting to avoid annoyed roadgeeks. ;D

Heck, we could even put the data on GitHub as well if it's kept in a text (not binary) format (otherwise reviews would be a pain), but Git is not always that easy to grasp for non-programmers.

An idea could be having one or more head maintainer(s) for each system who review contributions. If there's a system that isn't there and you would like to have added, you can apply to create it. I'm all for having things all the way down to numbered municipal roads if people volunteer for that.

Personally, I do keep track of unsigned routes as well, as they usually do have some importance, but they should be treated as separate systems because not everyone does that (i.e. someone who's clinched all signed routes should still have 100% of that system, and if they want to tackle unsigned routes next, it's in a separate system). But then comes the problem of "well-known" unsigned routes such as the New Jersey Turnpike, the Taconic State Parkway, the Queen Elizabeth Way, etc... I suppose that if it does carry a shield of some sort, then it should count as signed.

I think that "global" stats don't make sense (i.e. computing what percentage of the entire highway database you've got), but it would be interesting for users to set goals by selecting which highway systems they want to keep track of globally. I'm not 100% sure of which way I'd implement this conceptually, but this is food for thought.

Rail lines and transit routes are acceptable as far as I'm concerned. If there's opposition, then that can be a fork of the app too, but I think we should leave room for that in the code.

The waypoints system. Sometimes I don't like it, but only sometimes. It does work well for controlled access highways, but in many cases I've driven through part of a long-ish segment on a regular highway and would like to count it, but I don't have an easy-to-manage alternative in mind, so I guess we should keep it at the moment.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 04, 2015, 12:30:26 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on March 04, 2015, 12:18:42 PM
For managing route contributions, I think that a system similar to what GitHub uses (i.e. pull requests, in which a contributor sends in changes and the project owner(s) either OK them or ask the contributor to revise and resend) could work. This would help keep at least a certain level of standards and avoid most edit wars, and if a contributor is unhappy, then they can start their own fork of the whole thing; both the code and data. Honestly, I keep seeing inconsistencies in OSM and Waze (and now even Google Maps) and it irks me a lot. Even when guidelines are well documented, they get ignored by a large part of the user base, and it's even worse on Waze because there's no requirement to document changesets; in fact, there's no way to document them!

Heck, we could even put the data on GitHub as well if it's kept in a text (not binary) format (otherwise reviews would be a pain), but Git is not always that easy to grasp for non-programmers.

Some route contributions are made by non-programmers like me, so GitHub should not be the only way to get route files into the system. But it sounds like your suggestion would insulate non-programmers from having to deal directly with GitHub, which is good.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NE2 on March 04, 2015, 01:01:54 PM
There's not always a clear distinction between signed and unsigned. SR 7 in south Florida is supposed to be unsigned, but street signs in Broward county say "SR 7" (probably named before it became US 441) and there are a few SR 7 shields posted. North of SR 80 (which is a well-signed carrier route for US 98), SR 7 goes on its own and is signed.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 04, 2015, 02:01:02 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on March 04, 2015, 12:18:42 PM
Personally, I do keep track of unsigned routes as well, as they usually do have some importance, but they should be treated as separate systems because not everyone does that (i.e. someone who's clinched all signed routes should still have 100% of that system, and if they want to tackle unsigned routes next, it's in a separate system). But then comes the problem of "well-known" unsigned routes such as the New Jersey Turnpike, the Taconic State Parkway, the Queen Elizabeth Way, etc... I suppose that if it does carry a shield of some sort, then it should count as signed.

The three named highways you mentioned are signed by name, and as such are all in the CHM database, either in a provincial highways route set (the QEW is listed as part of the Ontario Provincial Freeways set, under its signed name rather than its unsigned route number 451), or under a miscellaneous named highways set.

There are other issues with how you handle routes that are assigned route numbers but they're not signed in the field.  Some state DOTs, like for Maryland and Hawaii, assign a route number to every little scrap of pavement they maintain, which results in a large number of unimportant minor routes, most but not all of which have no route markers.  Others like Alaska have very small numbered route networks, but even some of those major routes have little or no route signage (such as AK 10's Cordova segment, which used to be signed, but Alaska DOT&PF gave up in the face of persistent sign vandalism -- there is strong local opposition to long-dormant proposals to connect that segment to the rest of the state highway system). Some such borderline cases are headaches, but I think there's a broad consensus for ignoring unsigned minor routes, to create less work for site maintainers and server.

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on March 04, 2015, 12:18:42 PM
I think that "global" stats don't make sense (i.e. computing what percentage of the entire highway database you've got), but it would be interesting for users to set goals by selecting which highway systems they want to keep track of globally. I'm not 100% sure of which way I'd implement this conceptually, but this is food for thought.

CHM's user stats home page used to rank users solely by global mileage. It now lists them by default in alphabetical order, but also allows users to switch to one of three other ranking methods (which has the nice feature of having multiple users having a piece of the #1 overall ranking). You can also list in reverse order, such as alphabetically starting with the Zs. There's room to add one or more extra columns, or you can dig deeper to find out who's on top in a particular region or highway system, if you feel competitive but want to focus the comparison on what you specialize in.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 04, 2015, 02:15:35 PM
Quote from: english siIf people want the /data folder as-online for work on 1-3 then message me and I can sent it to you, saving the trouble of scraping the site. The mapviews folders are too big to email, but the rest is about 8MB.
I would like a copy.

Quote from: english siWhich reminds me - would we need to create a new JS .wpt editor?
I archived the one from the site.

Quote from: Thing 342Quick question, though: what are the +XNN lines used for?
These are hidden points, just used for keeping the shape of the route, roughly.
Also: A line can have more than one point label. The first label is the one shown on the HB; the rest are hidden, deprecated labels, to maintain compatibility for users with stale .list files, as Jim mentioned. As an example, here's ME I-195:
I-95 +0 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.527548&lon=-70.452842
1 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.523130&lon=-70.445323
2 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.511927&lon=-70.432019
ME5 +999 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.508130&lon=-70.414639


Quote from: jimBefore anyone invests much time in generating new .wpt files, I think they should be well aware of the naming conventions, tools, point density guidelines, guidelines for when to insert shaping points, etc.  Of course, a new system might change some of those rules but the existing ones work pretty well, in my opinion, and should be used as a starting point.  Also, make sure you're using public sources (i.e., not Google Maps), and are keeping track of those sources.
Seconded on all points.

QuoteI would also like us to be better about making sure points where two roads intersect use exactly the same coordinates, not just kind of sort of close enough.
Just noting that, as implemented now, having exactly matching points is not strictly necessary, except in the case of multiplexes. That said, IMO I DO think it is good practice, and make sure to do so myself. (It can be useful if, say, a new route comes along that hops off a multiplex with one route and onto the other...)

Quote from: oscar"Waypoint editor" is another to-do list item. It's possible to craft route files without one, then use one of Jim's programs to double-check the result. But the waypoint editor we were using lately (internally, access limited to the CHM team) streamlined things by combining those steps.
Jim's Viewer used the Google v.2 API, which has been discontinued. Thus the viewer no longer works; I don't believe he's made any updates to the v.3 API. The viewer is a lot less useful with the advent of the JavaScript waypoint editor anyway.
As said above, I've archived the waypoint editor. A quick test has it running off my local files on HD no prob. So, the matter becomes, do we reinvent this wheel this to just avoid using Tim's code? It's not a public-facing part of the site...

Quote from: Jim on March 04, 2015, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 04, 2015, 09:53:03 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 04, 2015, 09:30:50 AM
As a practical matter, it seems that if you want to be able to re-use existing .LIST files (something I'd certainly applaud), it means you have to give all the waypoints the exact same names, right? Or else you have to come up with a way of programming in the old names with some sort of "redirect" function so the software would recognize the old and new names? I think going through your own list to replace changed waypoint names would potentially be far more frustrating than simply building a new list!

I see no reason why any existing waypoint names need to be changed, with occasional exceptions where a route has changed since the last updates in August (like a lot of changes in Quebec last autumn), in which case we try to minimize list file breakage such as with "redirects". Especially for route files created by people who give permission for their re-use by a new site, no changes will presumably be the default.

Any fixes or re-plots should continue to avoid changing names of points that are in use by anyone's list file.  This has been a goal of the existing CHM collaborators for a long time.
Right. In fact, "redirects" have been in place for some time. Deprecated labels are recognized; "ME I-95 0 999" gets processed as if it were "ME I-95 NH/ME ME/Can. Alternate route names allow .list lines listing the old NC I-74Sea or NC I-74FutEll routes to be mapped to NC I-74Hig.

Quote from: Dr FrankensteinHeck, we could even put the data on GitHub as well if it's kept in a text (not binary) format (otherwise reviews would be a pain), but Git is not always that easy to grasp for non-programmers.
Data is stored as text. More or less, human-readable. Depending on what kind of human you are. :)

QuoteAn idea could be having one or more head maintainer(s) for each system who review contributions. If there's a system that isn't there and you would like to have added, you can apply to create it. I'm all for having things all the way down to numbered municipal roads if people volunteer for that.
Needs further discussion, at least. Head maintainers, applying to create or add systems... may be worthwhile yes. The idea of Numbered municipal roads, however, makes me nervious. Sounds like mission creep, getting into too much unruly clutter...

QuotePersonally, I do keep track of unsigned routes as well, as they usually do have some importance, but they should be treated as separate systems because not everyone does that (i.e. someone who's clinched all signed routes should still have 100% of that system, and if they want to tackle unsigned routes next, it's in a separate system). But then comes the problem of "well-known" unsigned routes such as the New Jersey Turnpike, the Taconic State Parkway, the Queen Elizabeth Way, etc... I suppose that if it does carry a shield of some sort, then it should count as signed.
The project as is it now at least, has been limited to signed routes. The goal has been to stay with what's knowable and visible to the average driver (with the exceptions of the Interstates and Autoroutes).

QuoteI think that "global" stats don't make sense (i.e. computing what percentage of the entire highway database you've got), but it would be interesting for users to set goals by selecting which highway systems they want to keep track of globally. I'm not 100% sure of which way I'd implement this conceptually, but this is food for thought.
Sounds like something that's already implemented: http://cmap.m-plex.com/stat/system.php?u=si404&sys=eure&du=mi&sort=ra#tr

QuoteRail lines and transit routes are acceptable as far as I'm concerned. If there's opposition, then that can be a fork of the app too, but I think we should leave room for that in the code.
There is room in the code. Really, anything that can be shown in connect-the-dots lines-with-waypoints format can be done. (Hell, we could even flip a switch or two and implement clinching of the international boundaries, coastline, state/provincial lines...) Here again though, I say, mission creep. I think it would dilute things, making a less clearly defined purpose and scope for the site.

Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on March 04, 2015, 02:41:34 PM
Git isn't too hard to learn, and there are even GUI front-ends for its tasks, though I can see where some would be intimidated by it.

At a place where I worked, they used Git for the projects, and they had some guidelines to maintain consistency.  The major ones were to name branches based on the issue number (so a fix to a bug labeled issue 578 would be branch issue-578) and to have a single person be responsible for testing and merging the branches together.

I agree that adding many other systems below state level or non-road could lead to clutter, though it brings my thoughts back to something I was thinking about earlier with respect to making the .list files a bit more powerful.  The idea was to allow comments similar to C++ (with text in a line after // or between /* and */ being ignored by the parser) and also optional directives stating which systems to include/exclude.  Of course, existing .list files would continue to process as they do now with this idea.  A sample of the new directives is below.


#include interstate, us, state(all), trans-canada, provincial(on, qc), select-named(us)


Quote from: yakra on March 04, 2015, 02:15:35 PM
The goal has been to stay with what's knowable and visible to the average driver (with the exceptions of the Interstates and Autoroutes).
Didn't A-920 get dropped due to being unsigned?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 04, 2015, 02:46:06 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 04, 2015, 02:41:34 PM
Didn't A-920 get dropped due to being unsigned?

And because we weren't sure it existed even on paper. Since all the (other) A-routes are signed, that leaves Interstates as the only system that explicitly includes unsigned routes.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 04, 2015, 03:05:01 PM
Quote from: yakra on March 04, 2015, 02:15:35 PM
Quote from: jimBefore anyone invests much time in generating new .wpt files, I think they should be well aware of the naming conventions, tools, point density guidelines, guidelines for when to insert shaping points, etc.  Of course, a new system might change some of those rules but the existing ones work pretty well, in my opinion, and should be used as a starting point.  Also, make sure you're using public sources (i.e., not Google Maps), and are keeping track of those sources.
Seconded on all points.

If some of the experienced collaborators have any spare time while we wait for the old site to come back to life or a new site to be designed and implemented, I think a great use of that time would be to train up some interested people in how to do this.

Quote from: yakra
Quote from: jimI would also like us to be better about making sure points where two roads intersect use exactly the same coordinates, not just kind of sort of close enough.
Just noting that, as implemented now, having exactly matching points is not strictly necessary, except in the case of multiplexes. That said, IMO I DO think it is good practice, and make sure to do so myself. (It can be useful if, say, a new route comes along that hops off a multiplex with one route and onto the other...)

And in some places, there are intentional differences to break what would be false concurrencies otherwise.

Quote from: yakra
Quote from: oscar"Waypoint editor" is another to-do list item. It's possible to craft route files without one, then use one of Jim's programs to double-check the result. But the waypoint editor we were using lately (internally, access limited to the CHM team) streamlined things by combining those steps.
Jim's Viewer used the Google v.2 API, which has been discontinued. Thus the viewer no longer works; I don't believe he's made any updates to the v.3 API. The viewer is a lot less useful with the advent of the JavaScript waypoint editor anyway.

I'd be happy to implement or help out with a new HB and/or waypoint editor, if we wind up not being able to use or feel comfortable using Tim's code.  Much of what I have here: http://courses.teresco.org/chm/viewer/ is based on Tim's code (with his permission) but it has evolved and continues to evolve. I think I understand everything well enough to implement new and improved versions of the tools we need for this project as time permits.

Finally, in response to the idea of rail or municipal data sets, one of the great things about a project being open is that someone could take a copy of the project and add whatever they want, and the mainline project can bring in or not as those who manage it see fit.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on March 04, 2015, 04:08:23 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 04, 2015, 02:46:06 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 04, 2015, 02:41:34 PM
Didn't A-920 get dropped due to being unsigned?

And because we weren't sure it existed even on paper. Since all the (other) A-routes are signed, that leaves Interstates as the only system that explicitly includes unsigned routes.
It doesn't exist except in a (now removed, I believe) dubious Wikipedia claim. It appears as R-201 on signage, reference markers and also in the MTQ's GIS (which includes every scrap of pavement that they maintain or even used to maintain, signed or not; kind of like what MD and HI do as oscar mentioned). No mention of 00920 anywhere, even in the multiplex fields.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Thing 342 on March 04, 2015, 04:27:55 PM
Quote from: english si on March 04, 2015, 07:29:26 AM
If people want the /data folder as-online for work on 1-3 then message me and I can sent it to you, saving the trouble of scraping the site. The mapviews folders are too big to email, but the rest is about 8MB.

Mind sending me a copy?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NE2 on March 04, 2015, 05:08:02 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on March 04, 2015, 04:08:23 PM
It doesn't exist except in a (now removed, I believe) dubious Wikipedia claim.
I just removed it. I ran the French Wikipoo article through Google Translate and it basically says that it doesn't exist but it could or maybe these other short freeways would also make sense as 920. Yeah.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 04, 2015, 07:16:28 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 04, 2015, 02:46:06 PMAnd because we weren't sure it existed even on paper. Since all the (other) A-routes are signed, that leaves Interstates as the only system that explicitly includes unsigned routes.
And International E roads (which also contains unoffical, but signed, routes).

Re matching points - it's hard to keep track of changing them when you peer review (certainly that's where the 99% of NMPs in the British A roads system come from, with the other 1% being to deal with false currencies), especially if there are weird concurrencies that you forgot about and don't appear on mapping as such. However, I hate non-matching points other than the false concurrency thing.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NE2 on March 04, 2015, 07:47:00 PM
Quote from: english si on March 04, 2015, 07:16:28 PM
unoffical, but signed, routes
Unless they were ninjasigned, signage makes them official at some level. If you mean not official at the European level, Interstates and U.S. Routes include some at the federal level (east quarter of I-695 Maryland, US 377 Oklahoma).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 04, 2015, 08:42:15 PM
Re: the non-matching points for intersections, I have a program that I used to remove all such errors from regions I was responsible for.  There is a manual step, though, since we do want to make sure points that are intentionally distinct remain so.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: SD Mapman on March 04, 2015, 09:37:03 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 04, 2015, 03:05:01 PM
Quote from: yakra on March 04, 2015, 02:15:35 PM
Quote from: jimBefore anyone invests much time in generating new .wpt files, I think they should be well aware of the naming conventions, tools, point density guidelines, guidelines for when to insert shaping points, etc.  Of course, a new system might change some of those rules but the existing ones work pretty well, in my opinion, and should be used as a starting point.  Also, make sure you're using public sources (i.e., not Google Maps), and are keeping track of those sources.
Seconded on all points.

If some of the experienced collaborators have any spare time while we wait for the old site to come back to life or a new site to be designed and implemented, I think a great use of that time would be to train up some interested people in how to do this.
I'm interested, so how will that work?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: hbelkins on March 04, 2015, 10:18:32 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 04, 2015, 03:05:01 PM
I'd be happy to implement or help out with a new HB

Make the new one rich and handsome!  :-D
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 04, 2015, 11:09:26 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 04, 2015, 02:46:06 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 04, 2015, 02:41:34 PM
Didn't A-920 get dropped due to being unsigned?

And because we weren't sure it existed even on paper. Since all the (other) A-routes are signed, that leaves Interstates as the only system that explicitly includes unsigned routes.

The US highways have a few a well.  Consider the 'unsigned' segment of US-74 on I-75 down to I-24.  It isn't signed, but is well documented on official TDOT maps, and is officially approved per the AASHTO.

Same with the Southern end of US-41 in FL.  FDOT acknowledges it in everything on maps and stuff, just no longer posts it past US-1.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 05, 2015, 12:15:14 AM
Quote from: jimIf some of the experienced collaborators have any spare time while we wait for the old site to come back to life or a new site to be designed and implemented, I think a great use of that time would be to train up some interested people in how to do this.
My fear is that once we finally have the site ready to go live, facing a massive deluge of data from all sides to ingest & incorporate. First the data as it exists on the site now, then updates/fixes/changes from the past several months, then a potential flood of new data. It could get pretty crazy. Also, we'd have to properly communicate and keep track of who's-doing-what, so as not to duplicate effort; no sense having Bob and Joe both work on the Manitoba Primary Provincial Highways independently without one another's knowledge. (Especially when I've already got`em half done. ;) )
Are we ready for this? Is it biting off more than we can chew?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 05, 2015, 12:30:15 AM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 04, 2015, 11:09:26 PM
The US highways have a few a well.  Consider the 'unsigned' segment of US-74 on I-75 down to I-24.  It isn't signed, but is well documented on official TDOT maps, and is officially approved per the AASHTO.

Same with the Southern end of US-41 in FL.  FDOT acknowledges it in everything on maps and stuff, just no longer posts it past US-1.

But those aren't isolated segments, just continuations of otherwise signed routes.  Different from, say, Maryland I-595 which is unsigned for its entire length.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NE2 on March 05, 2015, 12:40:46 AM
So how's Alabama/Florida/Tennessee handled? They have routes with signed portions and unsigned 'carrier' portions on U.S. Routes, as well as routes that are entirely unsigned for the same reason.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 05, 2015, 01:27:58 AM
Quote from: NE2 on March 05, 2015, 12:40:46 AM
So how's Alabama/Florida/Tennessee handled? They have routes with signed portions and unsigned 'carrier' portions on U.S. Routes, as well as routes that are entirely unsigned for the same reason.

Well, for the Florida State routes, I was doing the entire route first if it had any part of it signed.  However, Tim had me change that to only segments that were signed, which needed separate files for routes that had more than 1 individual segment signed (like FL-20).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 05, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 05, 2015, 12:40:46 AM
So how's Alabama/Florida/Tennessee handled? They have routes with signed portions and unsigned 'carrier' portions on U.S. Routes, as well as routes that are entirely unsigned for the same reason.
AL & TN state route systems were never begun. No decision had to be made, so AFAIK it was never looked at.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: SD Mapman on March 05, 2015, 10:35:48 PM
Quote from: yakra on March 05, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
AL & TN state route systems were never begun. No decision had to be made, so AFAIK it was never looked at.
Did anyone ever start anything on Wyoming?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 05, 2015, 10:47:51 PM
Quote from: SD Mapman on March 05, 2015, 10:35:48 PM
Quote from: yakra on March 05, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
AL & TN state route systems were never begun. No decision had to be made, so AFAIK it was never looked at.
Did anyone ever start anything on Wyoming?

Not that I know of, though someone might have his eye on that already.

The "in development" systems list for the Highway Browser (which still works) indicates many of the states, etc. where work is in some level of progress, though there are others where work has been done but not posted.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: froggie on March 05, 2015, 10:51:29 PM
QuoteAL & TN state route systems were never begun.

I had informally begun some work on AL a few years ago, but let it lie fallow as I went into 2 years worth of deployments.  AL was never officially begun as yakra noted.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 05, 2015, 11:24:18 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 05, 2015, 10:47:51 PM
The "in development" systems list for the Highway Browser (which still works) indicates many of the states, etc. where work is in some level of progress, though there are others where work has been done but not posted.
IIRC there was also some unposted work done for GA and VA.
Me, I have the Alberta and Manitoba primary provincial systems roughly 5/6 and 1/2 done respectively. I've also been bad and started some work on Texas.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Duke87 on March 06, 2015, 01:06:27 AM
Ultimately I think we are going to need some sort of gatekeeping so we don't end up with edit wars, duplicate efforts, and whatnot. I would more or less keep the existing model of having collaborators, but with the following key changes:

- No "we're not accepting any new collaborators right now". Anyone who wants to help and who can be trusted to help competently without stirring drama is welcome to join in.
- All collaborators should be able to upload their own data additions and updates.
- All collaborators should be allowed to claim dibs on one (1) incomplete highway system to work on at a time. In order to claim dibs on another system they must first finish the one they are working on, or upload whatever they have finished and surrender dibs to it. Additionally, a collaborator will surrender their dibs if they go inactive for more than some period of time.
- Decisions about what a system should or shouldn't include when it becomes ambiguous should be made by community consensus, like Wikipedia does. Collaborators and ordinary users should be afforded equal input on such decisions.


Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rschen7754 on March 06, 2015, 01:19:03 AM
Quote from: Hoss6884 on March 05, 2015, 12:24:37 PM
Quote from: yakra on March 05, 2015, 12:15:14 AM
Quote from: jimIf some of the experienced collaborators have any spare time while we wait for the old site to come back to life or a new site to be designed and implemented, I think a great use of that time would be to train up some interested people in how to do this.
My fear is that once we finally have the site ready to go live, facing a massive deluge of data from all sides to ingest & incorporate. First the data as it exists on the site now, then updates/fixes/changes from the past several months, then a potential flood of new data. It could get pretty crazy. Also, we'd have to properly communicate and keep track of who's-doing-what, so as not to duplicate effort; no sense having Bob and Joe both work on the Manitoba Primary Provincial Highways independently without one another's knowledge. (Especially when I've already got`em half done. ;) )
Are we ready for this? Is it biting off more than we can chew?

As I said in a previous post, I have experience with project management.  It's a matter of organization and prioritizing and doing a little bit at a time.  CHM was not built in a day and neither will this new site.  I volunteer my expertise, because as I also said, I'm not an expert in terms of the type of programming that is involved with this.

If whomever does this tries to do it all in one fell swoop, it will fail.

Probably better to break it down into pieces with tangible milestones. i.e.

1) Get the Interstate Highway System working, that's what people care about most. Use the text files.
2) Start building a base of participants, and get some more highway systems back up and running.
3) Start thinking of alternative modes of data entry.

etc.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on March 06, 2015, 04:36:13 AM
And don't forget about European roads! Since I've never been to the US I would have a mileage of zero if the new site sticks only to America.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 06, 2015, 05:54:42 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 06, 2015, 01:06:27 AM- All collaborators should be allowed to claim dibs on one (1) incomplete highway system to work on at a time. In order to claim dibs on another system they must first finish the one they are working on, or upload whatever they have finished and surrender dibs to it. Additionally, a collaborator will surrender their dibs if they go inactive for more than some period of time.
One? I find the two currently existing constrictive! Does finish it include peer review?

Everything else makes sense.

yakra - bad for starting a third system? I've got about 10 systems fully done beyond the official five I have awaiting peer review and about another 10 part done. :P
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 06, 2015, 10:44:11 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 06, 2015, 01:06:27 AM
I would more or less keep the existing model of having collaborators, but with the following key changes:

- No "we're not accepting any new collaborators right now". Anyone who wants to help and who can be trusted to help competently without stirring drama is welcome to join in.

What about initially, when the project is still getting on its feet and getting to the stage where it can take on new collaborators?  "Showing the ropes" to new team members means more work for existing team members, so there's something to be said about being selective at the start (such as to focus on filling in any gaps in programming expertise) until the new project's past its launch phase.

Or when the team is fully built out, and starts getting larger than is needed for the work to be done?  At some point, it gets hard to keep everybody on the same page.  Kind of like how over-large corporate boards are notoriously ineffective decision-making bodies (sometimes intentionally, to keep the real decision-making power in the hands of corporate management), with many members there just for show.

I have no doubt that the optimal team size is larger than what CHM has now, but it stops well short of infinity.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 06, 2015, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: rschen7754 on March 06, 2015, 01:19:03 AM
If whomever does this tries to do it all in one fell swoop, it will fail.

Probably better to break it down into pieces with tangible milestones. i.e.

1) Get the Interstate Highway System working, that's what people care about most. Use the text files.
2) Start building a base of participants, and get some more highway systems back up and running.
3) Start thinking of alternative modes of data entry.

etc.
I see it a bit differently:

1) Get the DB, new HB and stats working. Once] this framework is in place, it'll be a snap to add back all the existing systems. Interstate, US, European, state, everything. Then, add the more specific features to the site's functionality.
2) Take care of the backlog of updates and fixes to the existing systems that have been piling up since summer.
3) Add in new systems that have been ready to go since then.
4) Build base of participants, more highway systems
5) Start thinking of alternative modes of data entry.

Alternate modes of entry is marked as #5 here, but really, I envision two processes happening in parallel:
* updates and additions to site features / functionality / back-end
* data updates (new systems, changes to existing systems)

Quote from: english si on March 06, 2015, 05:54:42 AM
One? I find the two currently existing constrictive! Does finish it include peer review?
I also find the current limit of two restrictive. Informally at least, I'd say peer review is not included. I know that you and I at least started a 3rd system while a 1st was only waiting on peer review before activation, and were never called out.

QuoteEverything else makes sense.
Agreed. And I want to emphasize:
Quote from: Duke87 on March 06, 2015, 01:06:27 AM
- Decisions about what a system should or shouldn't include when it becomes ambiguous should be made by community consensus, like Wikipedia does. Collaborators and ordinary users should be afforded equal input on such decisions.
This. If we had such a model in place on the existing project, Vermont would have been included for ages.

Quoteyakra - bad for starting a third system? I've got about 10 systems fully done beyond the official five I have awaiting peer review and about another 10 part done. :P
Well, a 4th system if you count that USAVT was still not activated. Leaving that out (call it peer review?), yes, a 3rd.
Texas of course, would be two or three systems: State Highways one system, and loops & spurs would either be another system or systems #2 & 3.
10 whole systems, huh? Holy cow. Which ones are they?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 06, 2015, 03:34:51 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 06, 2015, 10:44:11 AMWhat about initially, when the project is still getting on its feet and getting to the stage where it can take on new collaborators?  "Showing the ropes" to new team members means more work for existing team members, so there's something to be said about being selective at the start (such as to focus on filling in any gaps in programming expertise) until the new project's past its launch phase.
Yes, I'd keep the team fairly small to begin with. Yakra's plan works well, IMO.
Quote from: yakra on March 06, 2015, 01:54:20 PM
Quoteyakra - bad for starting a third system? I've got about 10 systems fully done beyond the official five I have awaiting peer review and about another 10 part done. :P
Well, a 4th system if you count that USAVT was still not activated. Leaving that out (call it peer review?), yes, a 3rd.
Texas of course, would be two or three systems: State Highways one system, and loops & spurs would either be another system or systems #2 & 3.
10 whole systems, huh? Holy cow. Which ones are they?
Complete systems or subsystems (13) - Andorra CG roads, Belgium B Roads, Belgium R Roads, Denmark Primary Routes, Hong Kong Routes, Lithuanian A roads, Latvian A Roads, Singapore Expressways, Colorado State Routes, Indiana State Routes, Wyoming State Routes, Asian Highways (part: Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Singapore, Hong Kong), Yellowstone's roads (for the long-proposed usanp system).

Partially complete systems (about 20!), mostly involving more European phase 3 systems (Netherlands N roads, French N roads (which is several systems due to the DOM-TOMs), Moldova M roads, Ukraine M roads, Europe grab bag second tier routes, Finnish Kt roads, Finnish Vt roads, Aaland Vt roads, Aaland Kt roads, Montana secondary state routes, Estonia T roads, Scottish National Tourist Routes, Romania DN roads, Malta roads, Virgin Islands territory routes, Morocco A roads, Algeria A roads, Tunisia A roads, Malaysia E roads)

Most of that comes from having a lot of regions and Europe phase 3 not happening. Some of these were done well over 2 years ago. And a lot of the European ones are small systems with a lot of overlap with the E road network.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 06, 2015, 05:00:52 PM
Quote from: yakra on March 06, 2015, 01:54:20 PM
I see it a bit differently:

1) Get the DB, new HB and stats working. Once this framework is in place, it'll be a snap to add back all the existing systems. Interstate, US, European, state, everything. Then, add the more specific features to the site's functionality.
2) Take care of the backlog of updates and fixes to the existing systems that have been piling up since summer.
3) Add in new systems that have been ready to go since then.
4) Build base of participants, more highway systems
5) Start thinking of alternative modes of data entry.

Alternate modes of entry is marked as #5 here, but really, I envision two processes happening in parallel:
* updates and additions to site features / functionality / back-end
* data updates (new systems, changes to existing systems)

This is almost exactly what I was intending to reply this evening.  I don't see any need to bring in existing systems piecemeal, other than ones we are not comfortable importing because of lack of permissions.  But I also think the majority of those could be re-created before we'd be in a position to make use of the data in a new system anyway.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Bickendan on March 06, 2015, 05:31:20 PM
I'd request that the US Highways that have exit numbers have those tags switched when they get imported.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 06, 2015, 07:51:05 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on March 06, 2015, 05:31:20 PM
I'd request that the US Highways that have exit numbers have those tags switched when they get imported.

I agree with this except for one case.  When they only have just 'letters' for the exit (like US-422 has in 2 places in PA).  If just letters for the exit, leave as original label.

Quote from: Hoss6884 on March 06, 2015, 11:38:35 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 06, 2015, 10:44:11 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 06, 2015, 01:06:27 AM
I would more or less keep the existing model of having collaborators, but with the following key changes:

- No "we're not accepting any new collaborators right now". Anyone who wants to help and who can be trusted to help competently without stirring drama is welcome to join in.

What about initially, when the project is still getting on its feet and getting to the stage where it can take on new collaborators?  "Showing the ropes" to new team members means more work for existing team members, so there's something to be said about being selective at the start (such as to focus on filling in any gaps in programming expertise) until the new project's past its launch phase.

Or when the team is fully built out, and starts getting larger than is needed for the work to be done?  At some point, it gets hard to keep everybody on the same page.  Kind of like how over-large corporate boards are notoriously ineffective decision-making bodies (sometimes intentionally, to keep the real decision-making power in the hands of corporate management), with many members there just for show.

I have no doubt that the optimal team size is larger than what CHM has now, but it stops well short of infinity.

I agree with what another person said about starting with interstates first ... then what about U.S. highways followed by the state highways?  (I'm not forgetting about our non-U.S. friends -- we can address those in parallel).  To me, each state should be assigned to a person (or two at most) who are responsible for all changes in that state at all highway levels.  There should also be a "Board of Collaborators" where at most we have 4-5 people who each oversee a region and the overall direction of the site (I don't want to be one of these people).  What does "oversee" mean in this case?  I'm not sure yet.  But to me, this eliminates having 50 people in charge and also eliminates a one-man show, which is how we got to this current dilemma.

Just a thought.

Well, all my states (Interstates + US Highways) will be ready to go right away minus some fixes that need to be done to the US highways in SC.  Plus, I was in the middle of fixing up all the TN US Highways before Tim stopped adding new files to the site.  So, I would still need to finish cleaning up those (which shouldn't be too many).

Also, since Tim took over KY from me, we would have to redo all the State Highways.  However, the Interstates and US Highways should be fine as is (minus having to redo the new US-127 Bypass around Albany,KY at minimum), as I overhauled them before Tim started on the State Highways.  If push comes to shove, I still have my copies from before he took over KY that we could put up and then go from there if need be.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Duke87 on March 07, 2015, 06:03:36 PM
Quote from: yakra on March 06, 2015, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: english si on March 06, 2015, 05:54:42 AM
One? I find the two currently existing constrictive! Does finish it include peer review?
I also find the current limit of two restrictive. Informally at least, I'd say peer review is not included. I know that you and I at least started a 3rd system while a 1st was only waiting on peer review before activation, and were never called out.

My line of thinking is that if the new site is more open the number of collaborators will increase dramatically. What I don't want to have happen is people calling dibs on a bunch of things but then not putting much effort into working on any of them, so they don't get done, while in the meantime someone else would eagerly work on them if they were permitted to. Requiring that everyone finish the system they are currently building before they start a new one ensures that everyone gets a shot at something while at the same time also minimizing systems getting locked in limbo and therefore helping things get done more quickly.

With the existing site I have already seen systems stay "in development" seemingly perpetually because the person doing it is short on spare time in which to work on it. With an open collaborator system I can only see this becoming a more frequent problem which will ruin the project if it isn't kept in check. Therefore we need a mechanism to minimize how much anyone can monopolize, and also a mechanism to take it away from them if they aren't making progress and someone else wants to work on it.

Either that, or we need a mechanism for multiple people to be able to work on the same system simultaneously.

I haven't been involved in system building so maybe you know something I don't, but what is the reasoning behind having someone work on multiple systems at a time? Is it simply a question of "I feel like working on something different today", or...?

It's also entirely possible that I'm overestimating how much the group of collaborators will grow and this won't really be an issue.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 07, 2015, 07:04:00 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 07, 2015, 06:03:36 PM
Quote from: yakra on March 06, 2015, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: english si on March 06, 2015, 05:54:42 AM
One? I find the two currently existing constrictive! Does finish it include peer review?
I also find the current limit of two restrictive. Informally at least, I'd say peer review is not included. I know that you and I at least started a 3rd system while a 1st was only waiting on peer review before activation, and were never called out.

My line of thinking is that if the new site is more open the number of collaborators will increase dramatically.

My line of thinking (which is by no means the last word on this) is that the number of collaborators will increase gradually. No more drama, please!

Quote from: Duke87 on March 07, 2015, 06:03:36 PM
I haven't been involved in system building so maybe you know something I don't, but what is the reasoning behind having someone work on multiple systems at a time? Is it simply a question of "I feel like working on something different today", or...?

There is something to be said for getting the most out of collaborators who already know the routine, and can easily handle developing more than one system at once, at least until new collaborators are brought up to speed and can take on more of the new system development.

Quote from: Duke87 on March 07, 2015, 06:03:36 PM
With the existing site I have already seen systems stay "in development" seemingly perpetually because the person doing it is short on spare time in which to work on it.

Some of this is logjams at the webmaster level, which a new project hopefully will clear up, with several states, etc. close enough to be brought online quickly once a new site is up and running, or if the old site comes back to life. Some of this is people who've dropped out of the existing project, but their partially-completed systems would be candidates for someone to complete once the team were expanded. Some "miscellaneous" sets under development (such as the "select" Canada systems) might get absorbed into other new sets, either under development or yet to be assigned.

I expect a lot of reshuffling and new assignments to take place. But not right away, there is a ton of other stuff to do first.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 08, 2015, 10:12:18 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 07, 2015, 06:03:36 PMMy line of thinking is that if the new site is more open the number of collaborators will increase dramatically. What I don't want to have happen is people calling dibs on a bunch of things but then not putting much effort into working on any of them, so they don't get done, while in the meantime someone else would eagerly work on them if they were permitted to.
Yep that is a problem.
QuoteRequiring that everyone finish the system they are currently building before they start a new one ensures that everyone gets a shot at something while at the same time also minimizing systems getting locked in limbo and therefore helping things get done more quickly.
I see your point, but the limit of two seems fine (provided you don't count peer review). The issue has not been people doing half a system then starting and finishing multiple systems having abandoned the other system.

The issue that people have started a single system and not having time to finish it.
QuoteWith the existing site I have already seen systems stay "in development" seemingly perpetually because the person doing it is short on spare time in which to work on it.
And the peer review process taking far too long...
Quoteand also a mechanism to take it away from them if they aren't making progress and someone else wants to work on it.
This for sure, but not the other one.
QuoteEither that, or we need a mechanism for multiple people to be able to work on the same system simultaneously.
That won't work, unless you have a multi-region system you can split into subsystems (Interstates, TCH, E roads, US routes, etc).

QuoteI haven't been involved in system building so maybe you know something I don't, but what is the reasoning behind having someone work on multiple systems at a time? Is it simply a question of "I feel like working on something different today", or...?
Partially. Certainly I could have spent some time yesterday sorting out or two of the remaining 4 Russian E roads I have left to do (E22, E30, E38, E40), but I was sick and tired of dealing with the vast emptiness of the former USSR, so sorted out Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo and Bosnia's files instead. If I was creating files (rather than overhauling/updating them) and had the choice of Russian E Roads or nothing then I would have done nothing.

It's a bit like George RR Martin - while he's working on the main ASOIAF series, he gets stuck, or frustrated, or whatever and in those periods, he turns out other material, be it World-building History, a Novella or a Game of Thrones episode's script. Many fans are fed up with him not focusing entirely on the main novels, but the novels aren't delayed by the other stuff - the other stuff probably spurs on his work on the main novels.

My own partially finished systems are mostly beginnings I made from concurrent segments, with a bit more done and then as there was no prospect of publishing and there were other things to do, I left them (the reason I made them was my own personal understanding of that country's road system). Personally, if someone else wants to do them from scratch, I don't have a problem (and I'm very willing to give up regions - I'm certainly aiming to drop US states when their state routes get activated and there's someone suitable to maintain them). And if there is a new site (as this won't happen on the old site reborn) where I can publish them, I could spend an hour on the smaller systems and finish them, or an evening or two on the larger systems (and about a week on the Dutch N roads), and within 6 weeks or so, they are all done (save perhaps Russian AH routes). The backlog will be peer review, as I've found ever since the JS .wpt editor made making files much much quicker and easier!
Quote from: oscar on March 07, 2015, 07:04:00 PMI expect a lot of reshuffling and new assignments to take place. But not right away, there is a ton of other stuff to do first.
Indeed. My focus is getting existing systems up-to-date.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on March 24, 2015, 04:14:35 PM
I've been curious about what/when the next step might be as well.  CHM is something that's been on my mind, especially since I just clinched a bunch of roads on meets.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: 1995hoo on March 24, 2015, 04:46:45 PM
I have pretty much zero programming skills. The last time I remember writing any sort of program was during my junior year of high school to solve a math problem when I didn't want to sit around writing out all the numbers, so I wrote a short BASIC program and handed it in as "showing my work" (the teacher gave me credit). But if there is something non-programmers could do to help out, I'd consider trying to do so if it's something I'm able to do. I've been keeping my listing up-to-date and, as vdeane says, it was on my mind as I was looking at maps planning a trip for later this year (mentioned on the Road Trips subforum).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rschen7754 on March 24, 2015, 10:12:33 PM
Have there been recent efforts made to contact Tim?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 24, 2015, 11:49:33 PM
Not related to any of the last few posts, but some thoughts I've had kicking around for a couple weeks to follow up on my March 6th post...

I think the first version of a new site to go online should have the same data, the same points and labels, as the existing site as it is now.

Why? To avoid breaking .list files.
I have for one (and other collabs, I'm sure) have been dutifully maintaining the highway files for my regions over the past few months while the data on-site remains static. Sometimes this means changing point labels. If the labels weren't in use in someone's .list file at the time, I just changed the label without leaving the old one in as a hidden, deprecated label.

Meanwhile, a bunch of travelers have been updating their list files, based on the old & moldy data still in the HB. Potentially using these deprecated point labels that have been replaced in our local files.
If all our updated highway data and all everyone's updated .list files all hit the new site at about the same time, travelers could find that some of the waypoint labels have suddenly changed out from under them, resulting in errors and broken .list files.

Thus, I think it best that we should get the existing data on site first, then allow some time to get the site populated with people's .list files. Then, we can have the latest bleeding-edge labelsinuse data, in order to tweak our updates that have been waiting in the wings, to beep the breaking of .list files to a minimum.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 25, 2015, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 24, 2015, 11:49:33 PMI think the first version of a new site to go online should have the same data, the same points and labels, as the existing site as it is now.

I hate to see all of the potential fixes and additions to the data have to wait, but I do think it makes a lot of sense to wait for data updates until a at least a skeleton of a new system is live and people can see their travels and stats against the current data.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 25, 2015, 02:01:19 PM
I'd agree with keeping it Aug '14 while testing.

However .list file changes made without seeing the files are guesses as to what the point would be called. If it's a required point, then the guessed label can be informed and is likely correct*. If it's a additional visible point, then (for the same reason we don't take point requests) tough if they haven't got it. Having up to date points in use makes little sense given that people have been updating files since June (when the last processed submission was sent) and have already broken the .list files that they didn't have.

I say add them before the site goes live (eg non-collaborator .list file updates), like a week before, and people could just check the massive list of what the updates (9 months worth and counting...) are before submitting an up-to-date list file after the site launches.

Links to the right Browser file on the updates page would make this much easier and wouldn't be too onerous to sort out some way of automating it via fields in a form that collaborators use to update it

*Though I remember having a debate as to whether we should preempt this, and I used hidden labels so deal with this sort of thing "I took the A22 (http://cmap.m-plex.com/hb/hwymap.php?sys=gbna&rg=all&gr=p&r=eng.a022&showint=30&dl=1) from the A271 to the A2290 that's ENG A22 A271 A2290", but Tim wanted it that you had to look at the browser and so the points should be labelled "A267/A271" and "A2280/A2290" rather than the "A267 A271 and "A2280 A2290" that I had. I pointed out that it would be easier on users if I just called them "A267" and "A2290" as they are going to have to look at the browser anyway to get what the label was and it didn't matter if they were fully accurate, but it did matter that they were short. I seemingly got away with it on this example because it wasn't the one I used when the debate was occurring and it must have slipped through the peer review net.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 25, 2015, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 25, 2015, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 24, 2015, 11:49:33 PMI think the first version of a new site to go online should have the same data, the same points and labels, as the existing site as it is now.

I hate to see all of the potential fixes and additions to the data have to wait, but I do think it makes a lot of sense to wait for data updates until a at least a skeleton of a new system is live and people can see their travels and stats against the current data.

And remember, we have to possibly deal with the states that Tim did all the data having to be removed.  For those states, Interstate/US Highways top priority.  Then redoing the state highways as time allows.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Bickendan on March 25, 2015, 06:19:33 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 25, 2015, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 25, 2015, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 24, 2015, 11:49:33 PMI think the first version of a new site to go online should have the same data, the same points and labels, as the existing site as it is now.

I hate to see all of the potential fixes and additions to the data have to wait, but I do think it makes a lot of sense to wait for data updates until a at least a skeleton of a new system is live and people can see their travels and stats against the current data.

And remember, we have to possibly deal with the states that Tim did all the data having to be removed.  For those states, Interstate/US Highways top priority.  Then redoing the state highways as time allows.
Oregon and California are safe in that regard as I had to realign the interstates from the Terraserver imagery to the Gmaps centerlines, though had I had my way when redoing the US highways, they would have gotten their exit numbers.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 26, 2015, 05:02:38 AM
I've got an ever increasing amount (moving west) of Tim's Europe realigned, though as they were done later there's fewer changes when in places that had reasonable OSM coverage 5 years ago than in places where there were guesses, or the older Interstate and US route files.

Also pretty sure that in updating Indiana while improving files, I made enough changes to say it isn't all Tim's work. AZ and NV, however, came to me with state routes done, and so those states would need 'redoing' as a scenario. AZ Loop 303 is about the only file there I've made any important changes to.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Bickendan on March 26, 2015, 02:07:58 PM
I'm sure Spain and Portugal will need some tweaking, but they're also datasets that will be able to migrate over without having to redo the entire set. A-7, AP-7 and E15 still haunt me.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: IMGoph on March 26, 2015, 06:04:58 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 25, 2015, 04:40:33 PM

And remember, we have to possibly deal with the states that Tim did all the data having to be removed.  For those states, Interstate/US Highways top priority.  Then redoing the state highways as time allows.

Is there a chance he'd "take his ball and go home" with all of this? For all we know, based on lack of communication, he doesn't exist anymore.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 26, 2015, 06:27:04 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on March 26, 2015, 02:07:58 PMA-7, AP-7 and E15 still haunt me.
That corridor (and Spain in general) is an absolute mess when it comes to simple road numbering (and I remember explaining why the exit numbering is a total mess. Catalonia still has sequential from the north east, rather than distance-based from the south west).

There's a signed E15 spur and IIRC, there's a case for it being a full on (inconsistantly) signed loop, with the mainline not very consistantly signed either.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 26, 2015, 08:25:24 PM
Quote from: IMGoph on March 26, 2015, 06:04:58 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 25, 2015, 04:40:33 PM

And remember, we have to possibly deal with the states that Tim did all the data having to be removed.  For those states, Interstate/US Highways top priority.  Then redoing the state highways as time allows.

Is there a chance he'd "take his ball and go home" with all of this? For all we know, based on lack of communication, he doesn't exist anymore.

We have no idea.  I know for sure that PA would have to be redone completely since he was in control of that state from the start.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on March 26, 2015, 09:14:21 PM
Seems like right now it might be a good idea to start collecting together data that can be re-used somewhere (github?) and work out a plan of who/when/etc. for re-creating data along with continuing the maps/stats work (unless we're still waiting for one last chance for Tim to say he's alive?).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Thing 342 on March 26, 2015, 10:09:06 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 26, 2015, 09:14:21 PM
Seems like right now it might be a good idea to start collecting together data that can be re-used somewhere (github?) and work out a plan of who/when/etc. for re-creating data along with continuing the maps/stats work (unless we're still waiting for one last chance for Tim to say he's alive?).
Github would be good, especially for version management. If someone was busy realigning a system but didn't want to risk breaking users' existing data, they could create a separate branch and work within it. Having the data be open-source would also prevent the current situation (major contributor goes AWOL and takes all his or her data with them) from happening again.

I've been working on a proof-of-concept highway browser, but haven't gotten very far simply due to a lack of access to map data (and schoolwork).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 26, 2015, 11:18:01 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 26, 2015, 09:14:21 PM
Seems like right now it might be a good idea to start collecting together data that can be re-used somewhere (github?) and work out a plan of who/when/etc. for re-creating data along with continuing the maps/stats work (unless we're still waiting for one last chance for Tim to say he's alive?).

Yes, definitely.  It's time.  I'm thinking these would be good steps to take now:

1) Set up a github account where we will collect data, code, etc.  I have a lot of experience with version control, but only the basics with github.  I am sure it would provide the appropriate mechanisms to allow anyone to look at and clone copies the code and data, and we could have a trusted set of users (that I hope would grow over time) who can approve changes back to the primary branch.  I think github's mechanisms could also replace much of the manual discussion we had in the CHM forum about updates, etc.  Unless someone else experience with this and really would like to take the github lead, I'm willing to do so. It's something I want to need

2) Set up a discussion board.  This is something I could probably set up in my hostmonster account or maybe it's more appropriate to use some free service.  There might be some disagreement about this next point, but I think the entire forum should be public.  The CHM forum's split between the collaborator-only sections and the public sections had some advantages, but I don't see the real need for any secrecy here.

3) Set up one or more development/staging servers where we can try out the various pieces.  This is another place my hostmonster account could work, but I think there are a number of good options here.

4) Set up the production server.  This is not urgent since we won't be there for a while.

In all aspects of the project, there need to be multiple people who can do everything.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 26, 2015, 11:37:17 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 26, 2015, 11:18:01 PM
2) Set up a discussion board.  This is something I could probably set up in my hostmonster account or maybe it's more appropriate to use some free service.  There might be some disagreement about this next point, but I think the entire forum should be public.  The CHM forum's split between the collaborator-only sections and the public sections had some advantages, but I don't see the real need for any secrecy here.

I would use the SMF software (same type here @ AARoads) for the forums.  Easy to work with.  Especially with splitting/merging threads when needed (we can't merge threads on the current CHM forum).  As for the collaborator forums, yeah, I have no problems with them being visible to the public, just not allowing the public to post in them. ;)
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: froggie on March 27, 2015, 08:10:30 AM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 25, 2015, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 25, 2015, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 24, 2015, 11:49:33 PMI think the first version of a new site to go online should have the same data, the same points and labels, as the existing site as it is now.

I hate to see all of the potential fixes and additions to the data have to wait, but I do think it makes a lot of sense to wait for data updates until a at least a skeleton of a new system is live and people can see their travels and stats against the current data.

And remember, we have to possibly deal with the states that Tim did all the data having to be removed.  For those states, Interstate/US Highways top priority.  Then redoing the state highways as time allows.

Jumping in a little late on this part...

Given Tim's insistence on using open/public data to build the route datasets, I think this is far less of a problem than you're anticipating it being.  It could be argued that, given the public data source, the route datasets themselves are also open data.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Bickendan on March 27, 2015, 11:00:35 AM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 26, 2015, 11:37:17 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 26, 2015, 11:18:01 PM
2) Set up a discussion board.  This is something I could probably set up in my hostmonster account or maybe it's more appropriate to use some free service.  There might be some disagreement about this next point, but I think the entire forum should be public.  The CHM forum's split between the collaborator-only sections and the public sections had some advantages, but I don't see the real need for any secrecy here.

I would use the SMF software (same type here @ AARoads) for the forums.  Easy to work with.  Especially with splitting/merging threads when needed (we can't merge threads on the current CHM forum).  As for the collaborator forums, yeah, I have no problems with them being visible to the public, just not allowing the public to post in them. ;)
That's largely in part because CHM's forum is phpBB2, which is pretty damn obsolete now.
I have a mothballed phpBB3 forum we could use, but as it hasn't been updated for years now, it's an offer of last resort. Is setting up a section of this board dedicated to CHM an option worth exploring?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 27, 2015, 11:08:25 AM
Quote from: Bickendan on March 27, 2015, 11:00:35 AMThat's largely in part because CHM's forum is phpBB2, which is pretty damn obsolete now.
I have a mothballed phpBB3 forum we could use, but as it hasn't been updated for years now, it's an offer of last resort. Is setting up a section of this board dedicated to CHM an option worth exploring?

If the AARoads admins are willing, I think having a dedicated section here might be a good option.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: 1995hoo on March 27, 2015, 01:04:40 PM
Quote from: froggie on March 27, 2015, 08:10:30 AM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 25, 2015, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 25, 2015, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 24, 2015, 11:49:33 PMI think the first version of a new site to go online should have the same data, the same points and labels, as the existing site as it is now.

I hate to see all of the potential fixes and additions to the data have to wait, but I do think it makes a lot of sense to wait for data updates until a at least a skeleton of a new system is live and people can see their travels and stats against the current data.

And remember, we have to possibly deal with the states that Tim did all the data having to be removed.  For those states, Interstate/US Highways top priority.  Then redoing the state highways as time allows.

Jumping in a little late on this part...

Given Tim's insistence on using open/public data to build the route datasets, I think this is far less of a problem than you're anticipating it being.  It could be argued that, given the public data source, the route datasets themselves are also open data.


Since I have never had any involvement in putting that site together I do not know whether this is at all helpful, but I note the "sources and links" page on that site says a lot of material is drawn from OSM and has a link to the open license (similar to the default one used when you upload a picture to Wikipedia).

http://cmap.m-plex.com/docs/sources.php
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on March 27, 2015, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: froggie on March 27, 2015, 08:10:30 AM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on March 25, 2015, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 25, 2015, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 24, 2015, 11:49:33 PMI think the first version of a new site to go online should have the same data, the same points and labels, as the existing site as it is now.

I hate to see all of the potential fixes and additions to the data have to wait, but I do think it makes a lot of sense to wait for data updates until a at least a skeleton of a new system is live and people can see their travels and stats against the current data.

And remember, we have to possibly deal with the states that Tim did all the data having to be removed.  For those states, Interstate/US Highways top priority.  Then redoing the state highways as time allows.

Jumping in a little late on this part...

Given Tim's insistence on using open/public data to build the route datasets, I think this is far less of a problem than you're anticipating it being.  It could be argued that, given the public data source, the route datasets themselves are also open data.

Good point, especially since recreations aren't likely to look much, if any, different.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Bickendan on March 27, 2015, 02:41:56 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 27, 2015, 11:08:25 AM
Quote from: Bickendan on March 27, 2015, 11:00:35 AMThat's largely in part because CHM's forum is phpBB2, which is pretty damn obsolete now.
I have a mothballed phpBB3 forum we could use, but as it hasn't been updated for years now, it's an offer of last resort. Is setting up a section of this board dedicated to CHM an option worth exploring?

If the AARoads admins are willing, I think having a dedicated section here might be a good option.

Staff is willing. CHM discussion can migrate here to AARoads if needed.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Wadsteckel on March 27, 2015, 04:44:21 PM
This may be a bit early; but once a new site is set up, I'd be willing to offer my .list files and updates as part of a beta test if needed.  Given the constant new travels for me, I'm busy comparing my last update in November with where I've been driving up to now.  Starting to get confusing.

-Ed S.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 27, 2015, 05:02:23 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 26, 2015, 11:18:01 PM
Yes, definitely.  It's time.  I'm thinking these would be good steps to take now:

One suggestion to add to the list, if not done already:  Contacting present and past CHM collaborators (including people who've dropped out for whatever reason, perhaps including frustration with how CHM was managed), to gauge their interest in the new project, or at least their willingness to contribute whatever partial or complete route sets they've drafted.  Some of them might not be on the aaroads forum, or might be really inactive.  If any of them are really allergic to the aaroads forum for some reason, that might be a reason to put the new forum elsewhere, though I doubt that would be an issue. 

There's one collaborator in particular who's done a lot of work in the upper Midwest, and his participation (or at least permissions) might mean less work re-creating route files in his areas.  But I'm not sure there's programming talent in the people not yet heard from in this thread, which is the most immediate need.

I'm of course game, but the last programming I did was in the paper tape and punch card era of the 1970s, something I stopped doing to become a lawyer instead.  My contribution seems mainly my familiarity with the outer reaches of the U.S./Canada highway network, the route sets I assembled or updated in those areas, and a lot of travel pretty much everywhere else in North America (except Mexico and points south).
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Duke87 on March 27, 2015, 10:21:45 PM
Quote from: froggie on March 27, 2015, 08:10:30 AM
Given Tim's insistence on using open/public data to build the route datasets, I think this is far less of a problem than you're anticipating it being.  It could be argued that, given the public data source, the route datasets themselves are also open data.

A decent argument. It may be simplest to just scoop up all data as it exists and, if Tim resurfaces and objects to any of his stuff being used, then we can take it down and remake it ourselves.

As for creating a new subforum here for project discussion, I'd agree that is the best method simply since it would give it the most exposure. Perhaps an announcement could also be made on SABRE or any other discussion group where there might be a contingent of interested users.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 27, 2015, 11:39:34 PM
As we prepare to embark on this project and likely move discussion to a new section of this forum, what should the project be called?  "Clinched Highway Mapping" is nice, but was the name of the original project.  I haven't tried too hard to come up with anything, but here are a couple ideas:

- Travel Tracker
- Online Atlas Highlighter or some variation on that idea
- Map Your Travels

I'm sure others can come up with something great.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 27, 2015, 11:46:08 PM
- Clinching the World
- World Highway Clinching

As for a sub section, I'll create the section sometime tonight when I have finished other stuff that I need to do first.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: NE2 on March 27, 2015, 11:55:32 PM
*Anal Clinching
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: KG909 on March 28, 2015, 01:24:07 AM
Quote from: NE2 on March 27, 2015, 11:55:32 PM
*Anal Clinching
Mmm
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 28, 2015, 02:32:34 AM
PinCH. Stands for "PinCH is not CHM." :bigass:
Edit: Err, wait... Why not ClinCH, then? Or ClinCHM? Pronounced "Clinch'em"...
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: algorerhythms on March 28, 2015, 12:56:19 PM
Quote from: yakra on March 28, 2015, 02:32:34 AM
Edit: Err, wait... Why not ClinCH, then? Or ClinCHM? Pronounced "Clinch'em"...
Motto: "Gotta clinch 'em all"
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: froggie on March 28, 2015, 04:32:51 PM
Could just keep it simple, like "Highway Mapping" or "Travel Mapping".  The latter would be more appropriate if we ever delve into rail transit systems like a few have suggested.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Mapmikey on March 28, 2015, 04:46:58 PM
M.Y. Travels

(Map Your Travels)

Mapmikey

Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 28, 2015, 05:01:21 PM
Quote from: froggie on March 28, 2015, 04:32:51 PM
Could just keep it simple, like "Highway Mapping" or "Travel Mapping".  The latter would be more appropriate if we ever delve into rail transit systems like a few have suggested.

I like the second suggestion, to make the new project's name simple and more different from the old project.  Especially appropriate to drop "clinched", which CHM defines to mean travel of an entire route -- some people want to track partially-traveled routes, without aspiring to cover entire routes.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on March 28, 2015, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 28, 2015, 04:46:58 PM
M.Y. Travels

(Map Your Travels)

Mapmikey


That actually works pretty well.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: 1995hoo on March 28, 2015, 06:26:11 PM
Something like Mapmikey's suggestion might make the site something non-roadgeeks might look at. You don't need to be interested in roads to be interested in keeping track of where you've been–indeed, I first started highlighting a map when I got the idea from my French roommate my first year of law school. He wasn't into roads, but he was highlighting everywhere he'd been in the USA during his year here.

But "Clinched Highway Mapping" is not a name that is likely to mean much to the average user until he reads more of the info on the site. Even the front page of the existing site arguably assumes you already understand what it's about.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 28, 2015, 07:14:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2015, 06:26:11 PM
Something like Mapmikey's suggestion might make the site something non-roadgeeks might look at. You don't need to be interested in roads to be interested in keeping track of where you've been–indeed, I first started highlighting a map when I got the idea from my French roommate my first year of law school. He wasn't into roads, but he was highlighting everywhere he'd been in the USA during his year here.

Of course, the county-counting site mob-rule.com is perfect for showing where you've been, within the U.S. and Canada; and there are other sites to track the countries you've visited (not me, my country count is pretty piddling).  CHM, and the new project, are more oriented to the details of how we got there (currently just major highways, but could be expanded to cover other transport modes).  I would want to maintain that difference from mob-rule.com so that they remain complementary, rather than overlapping, resources.

I agree that "Clinched Highway Mapping" doesn't draw non-roadgeeks, though I expect that even if the project expands beyond highways, most non-geeks will notice but not want to use it.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on March 28, 2015, 07:33:22 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 28, 2015, 04:46:58 PM
M.Y. Travels

(Map Your Travels)

Mapmikey

I like this one.  Variations on appropriate domain names are fairly well picked over.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on March 29, 2015, 03:26:54 AM
Well, once we finally agree on a name, I'll adjust the name of this subforum. ;)


And here's another idea for a name that just popped into my mind:

-Traveling The Roads, where have you been?
(TTR)
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 29, 2015, 03:34:45 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 28, 2015, 07:14:37 PMOf course, the county-counting site mob-rule.com is perfect for showing where you've been, within the U.S. and Canada; and there are other sites to track the countries you've visited (not me, my country count is pretty piddling)
It's like your interstate travels, isn't it ;)

I'm another vote for M.Y.Travels
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 29, 2015, 08:18:53 AM
Quote from: english si on March 29, 2015, 03:34:45 AM
I'm another vote for M.Y.Travels

While M.Y. is a clever abbreviation, I think it's important to include "map" or "mapping" in the regularly used version of the name.  So I'd go with "Map Your Travels" as the full name, with the first two words only sometimes abbreviated to "M.Y."

Regrettably, "mytravels.com" and "mytravels.org" seem to be taken.  So is "mapyourtravels.com" -- but "mapyourtravels.org" is "parked" at GoDaddy.com (I don't know the cost for unparking it, though it would include a premium above standard domain registration rates). 
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: hotdogPi on March 29, 2015, 09:48:56 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 29, 2015, 08:18:53 AM
Regrettably, "mytravels.com" and "mytravels.org" seem to be taken.  So is "mapyourtravels.com" -- but "mapyourtravels.org" is "parked" at GoDaddy.com (I don't know the cost for unparking it, though it would include a premium above standard domain registration rates).

mapyourtrave.ls is not taken yet.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: froggie on March 29, 2015, 12:22:13 PM
QuoteI agree that "Clinched Highway Mapping" doesn't draw non-roadgeeks, though I expect that even if the project expands beyond highways, most non-geeks will notice but not want to use it.

I know quite a few urbanists and transit folks who would use it if we included transit systems.  Having a name that isn't specifically road-related would help in that regard.

My earlier "Travel Mapping" idea or Mike's "Map Your Travels" suggestion would work in that regard.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 29, 2015, 02:31:09 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 29, 2015, 09:48:56 AMmapyourtrave.ls is not taken yet.
Nor is mytravels.ls if we can get a Liechtensteinian domain (when I doubt we'd have stuff to map there, so bizarre).

I like the idea of rail stuff, but do we want rail cluttering up the maps (and vice versa). I suggest some sort of shared login and back end and combined stats, but different maps (even though having the rail would make sense of my London travels!). Plus we'd need a new manual for file creation, etc. However that's well after we get the road stuff sorted, so outside the naming thing, we don't need to bother much (though I have just made Files for several smaller networks in the UK...)
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: 1995hoo on March 29, 2015, 04:45:32 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 28, 2015, 07:14:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2015, 06:26:11 PM
Something like Mapmikey's suggestion might make the site something non-roadgeeks might look at. You don't need to be interested in roads to be interested in keeping track of where you've been–indeed, I first started highlighting a map when I got the idea from my French roommate my first year of law school. He wasn't into roads, but he was highlighting everywhere he'd been in the USA during his year here.

Of course, the county-counting site mob-rule.com is perfect for showing where you've been, within the U.S. and Canada; and there are other sites to track the countries you've visited (not me, my country count is pretty piddling).  CHM, and the new project, are more oriented to the details of how we got there (currently just major highways, but could be expanded to cover other transport modes).  I would want to maintain that difference from mob-rule.com so that they remain complementary, rather than overlapping, resources.

I agree that "Clinched Highway Mapping" doesn't draw non-roadgeeks, though I expect that even if the project expands beyond highways, most non-geeks will notice but not want to use it.

Depends on whether someone would consider "county-counting" to be how to track "where they've been." My brother is not interested in roads the way most of us are, but he takes a lot of long roadtrips (mostly following various bands around) and he found the CHM site to be a really interesting idea when I showed it to him.

But he did ask "why the hell did they call it 'Clinched Highway Mapping'? What the heck does 'clinched' mean?" Hence one reason why I speculated on whether an alternative name might be more, I don't know, accessible? less esoteric? to the average person who might see it. Of course, I suppose it's fair to acknowledge that on the whole it's a somewhat esoteric concept to most people anyway!
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Mapmikey on March 29, 2015, 06:32:47 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 29, 2015, 08:18:53 AM
Quote from: english si on March 29, 2015, 03:34:45 AM
I'm another vote for M.Y.Travels

While M.Y. is a clever abbreviation, I think it's important to include "map" or "mapping" in the regularly used version of the name.  So I'd go with "Map Your Travels" as the full name, with the first two words only sometimes abbreviated to "M.Y."

Regrettably, "mytravels.com" and "mytravels.org" seem to be taken.  So is "mapyourtravels.com" -- but "mapyourtravels.org" is "parked" at GoDaddy.com (I don't know the cost for unparking it, though it would include a premium above standard domain registration rates). 

It appears these are not yet taken:

mappingyourtravels.com
mappingyourtravels.org
mapmytravelz.com and .org also appear to be not taken

Mapmikey
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: sipes23 on March 29, 2015, 08:31:06 PM
While not nearly so felicitous as Map Your Travels, the following sites are available:

travelmapping.org
travelmapping.net

And if we're willing to go to Nigeria....

travelmappi.ng

Though I like Map Your Travels much better. I'm just tossing in a couple of non-parked domains.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Bickendan on March 30, 2015, 01:49:59 PM
Quote from: sipes23 on March 29, 2015, 08:31:06 PM
And if we're willing to go to Nigeria....

travelmappi.ng

I think we'd be required to assist deposed royalty (with a significant cut to us, of course!) if we do that :bigass:
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Duke87 on March 30, 2015, 08:45:25 PM
"MY Travels" is rather too cutesy for my liking. It also fails to specifically describe what is being mapped.

I could go for a rail equivalent although I feel it really needs to be a parallel site that doesn't render stuff on the same maps and whatnot. A LOT of people will care about only one or the other but not both.

So I propose the following two names:
Road Travel Mapping
Rail Travel Mapping

These names accurately describe what the sites do, in words laymen can understand, without sounding ridiculous.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Alps on March 30, 2015, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 30, 2015, 08:45:25 PM
"MY Travels" is rather too cutesy for my liking. It also fails to specifically describe what is being mapped.

I could go for a rail equivalent although I feel it really needs to be a parallel site that doesn't render stuff on the same maps and whatnot. A LOT of people will care about only one or the other but not both.

So I propose the following two names:
Road Travel Mapping
Rail Travel Mapping

These names accurately describe what the sites do, in words laymen can understand, without sounding ridiculous.
road.travelmapping.com
rail.travelmapping.com
crabwalking.travelmapping.com
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 30, 2015, 09:14:26 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 30, 2015, 08:45:25 PM
"MY Travels" is rather too cutesy for my liking. It also fails to specifically describe what is being mapped.

I could go for a rail equivalent although I feel it really needs to be a parallel site that doesn't render stuff on the same maps and whatnot. A LOT of people will care about only one or the other but not both.

So I propose the following two names:
Road Travel Mapping
Rail Travel Mapping

These names accurately describe what the sites do, in words laymen can understand, without sounding ridiculous.

What about ferries (auto-carrying and otherwise), which I'm a fan of including down the road? Or bus systems, local and intercity? The first could be fit into a road travels site, especially auto ferries, but awkwardly.  (But on second thought, roads and ferries might be a decent fit, since ferries run where the roads don't, ferry users often take highways to and from ferry terminals, and as with the Alaska Marine Highway System ferries are sometimes considered an extension of the land road system.)

Your suggestions might be too limiting. The ideas being kicked around generally avoid that, and leave the door open to expansion into other transport modes while deferring for now (while we get a roads site up and running) which ones to cover and how they would be mapped.

But I agree that road and rail systems on the same maps would probably create clutter, in addition to not working for users who care only about one or the other. (Though I can see some people, like me, having some interest in merged maps, such as for Manitoba where I took a train to Churchill from where the primary highway network ends.) Also having separate teams working on each (except for a few people interested in both), not just separate sites, would let each proceed at their own pace without losing focus, and perhaps get rail travel mapping up and running more quickly.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: vdeane on March 30, 2015, 09:31:59 PM
I like Steve's idea of putting the different sites into subdomains.  That also allows expansion into just about anyting while still keeping the sites specific.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 30, 2015, 09:35:53 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 30, 2015, 09:31:59 PM
I like Steve's idea of putting the different sites into subdomains.  That also allows expansion into just about anyting while still keeping the sites specific.

So do I (saves on domain fees, too), though alas the specific hypothetical domain name Steve threw out seems to be taken. Also, could the separate subdomains be run as separate sites, with minimal coordination to slow things down?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Molandfreak on March 30, 2015, 09:57:14 PM
clinchedhighways.com, clinchedtransit.com, clinchedrail.com.

PS: Why in the world is Elgin Equipment Group's domain "clinch.com?"
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Duke87 on March 31, 2015, 12:20:50 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 30, 2015, 09:14:26 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 30, 2015, 08:45:25 PM
"MY Travels" is rather too cutesy for my liking. It also fails to specifically describe what is being mapped.

I could go for a rail equivalent although I feel it really needs to be a parallel site that doesn't render stuff on the same maps and whatnot. A LOT of people will care about only one or the other but not both.

So I propose the following two names:
Road Travel Mapping
Rail Travel Mapping

These names accurately describe what the sites do, in words laymen can understand, without sounding ridiculous.

What about ferries (auto-carrying and otherwise), which I'm a fan of including down the road? Or bus systems, local and intercity? The first could be fit into a road travels site, especially auto ferries, but awkwardly.  (But on second thought, roads and ferries might be a decent fit, since ferries run where the roads don't, ferry users often take highways to and from ferry terminals, and as with the Alaska Marine Highway System ferries are sometimes considered an extension of the land road system.)

Road Travel Mapping
Rail Travel Mapping
Ferry Travel Mapping
Bus Travel Mapping
Air Travel Mapping
etc.

Not limiting at all. Expand into as many things as anyone wants. But keep different modes separate because lumping everything together is just going to end up driving users away who don't care about a lot of the stuff.

If the above all existed I would be inputting data for roads, rails, and ferries certainly, but ignoring buses and planes. I would not appreciate having bus routes all show up as unclinched on my maps simply because I don't care to keep track. And I don't really want roads and rails on the same map either.

Ferries meanwhile are interesting since CHM already includes some where they are explicitly part of a numbered route and DOT operated. If we're going to have a side project on ferries it might be nice to cut them out of numbered routes where they are currently included and put them in with all the other non-DOT ferries. This way we can keep a standard that's more physically consistent.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Molandfreak on March 31, 2015, 01:35:43 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 31, 2015, 12:20:50 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 30, 2015, 09:14:26 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 30, 2015, 08:45:25 PM
"MY Travels" is rather too cutesy for my liking. It also fails to specifically describe what is being mapped.

I could go for a rail equivalent although I feel it really needs to be a parallel site that doesn't render stuff on the same maps and whatnot. A LOT of people will care about only one or the other but not both.

So I propose the following two names:
Road Travel Mapping
Rail Travel Mapping

These names accurately describe what the sites do, in words laymen can understand, without sounding ridiculous.

What about ferries (auto-carrying and otherwise), which I'm a fan of including down the road? Or bus systems, local and intercity? The first could be fit into a road travels site, especially auto ferries, but awkwardly.  (But on second thought, roads and ferries might be a decent fit, since ferries run where the roads don't, ferry users often take highways to and from ferry terminals, and as with the Alaska Marine Highway System ferries are sometimes considered an extension of the land road system.)

Road Travel Mapping
Rail Travel Mapping
Ferry Travel Mapping
Bus Travel Mapping
Air Travel Mapping
etc.

Not limiting at all. Expand into as many things as anyone wants. But keep different modes separate because lumping everything together is just going to end up driving users away who don't care about a lot of the stuff.

If the above all existed I would be inputting data for roads, rails, and ferries certainly, but ignoring buses and planes. I would not appreciate having bus routes all show up as unclinched on my maps simply because I don't care to keep track. And I don't really want roads and rails on the same map either.

Ferries meanwhile are interesting since CHM already includes some where they are explicitly part of a numbered route and DOT operated. If we're going to have a side project on ferries it might be nice to cut them out of numbered routes where they are currently included and put them in with all the other non-DOT ferries. This way we can keep a standard that's more physically consistent.
Don't forget "Trail Travel Mapping" for hiking/biking fans like myself. I'd be more than happy to help maintain that site.  ;-)
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Molandfreak on March 31, 2015, 01:53:53 AM
clinching.com is available. :nod:
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 31, 2015, 04:18:33 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 31, 2015, 12:20:50 AM
Ferries meanwhile are interesting since CHM already includes some where they are explicitly part of a numbered route and DOT operated. If we're going to have a side project on ferries it might be nice to cut them out of numbered routes where they are currently included and put them in with all the other non-DOT ferries. This way we can keep a standard that's more physically consistent.

Actually, CHM normally excludes ferries, and cuts into separate segments routes including ferries. The only exceptions I'm aware of in North America (can't speak to Europe) are in one of my domains, the Northwest Territories, for several river crossings on NT 1 and NT 8 that are ice bridges in the winter (so you can drive across as if they were regular roads), and covered by ferries in the summer. There are also a few short ferry crossings, not yet removed (that's on a to-do list), in the draft California state routes set.

But those ferry crossings would be short enough to not separately display well on a map. Longer routes, for example the Cape May ferry across Delaware Bay, the ferry routes to Newfoundland and between Maine and Nova Scotia, and the extensive Alaska and British Columbia systems, are not in CHM and are more like what I have in mind.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: oscar on March 31, 2015, 04:24:31 AM
Quote from: Molandfreak on March 31, 2015, 01:35:43 AM
Don't forget "Trail Travel Mapping" for hiking/biking fans like myself. I'd be more than happy to help maintain that site.  ;-)

Doesn't hurt that there is a nationwide network of numbered and signed bicycle routes. AASHTO tends to those designations, along with Interstate and U.S. route designations.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 31, 2015, 08:25:26 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 30, 2015, 09:35:53 PMSo do I (saves on domain fees, too), though alas the specific hypothetical domain name Steve threw out seems to be taken. Also, could the separate subdomains be run as separate sites, with minimal coordination to slow things down?
I think universal log in for all sub-domains is almost a must have, even if separate files for each discrete type of route.

Railroads, Roads, Cycling trails and Walking trails would be of a similar format: <region> <route> <from> <to>. Issue here if they are all .list files, though obviously they could become .rail, .road, .bike and .hike files while keeping the same format.

Ferries (.boat) could take the same format, but region is difficult (would, for instance, the Portsmouth-Bilbao ferry enter France, and what purpose would mid-sea points serve?) and so many routes would look weird*. And the routes are fairly hard to map remotely accurately. A binary system with an interface like mob rule's one might work here?

Air travel is a different thing entirely an existing site (http://my.flightmemory.com/) takes airport codes and airline. It would be silly to have them pre-mapped as there's like a bazillion combinations.
Quote from: oscar on March 30, 2015, 09:14:26 PMOr bus systems, local and intercity?
The clinched transit thread here showed that buses are frankly awkward due to the routes being in flux a lot of the time. But if some mentalists want to do it, then...

And could we have geographical areas? Obviously US counties would be duplicating mob rule, but mob rule doesn't have countries, or national parks, or whatever. And it fits with our site's theme of mapping where you have been.

*My data would be something like, applying road standards to it (see how repetitive it is):
ENG Dover-Calais Dover GBR/FRA
FRA Dover-Calais GBR/FRA Calais
ENG Portsmouth-Cherbourg Portsmouth GBR/FRA
FRA Portsmouth-Cherbourg GBR/FRA Cherbourg
ENG Portsmouth-StMalo Portsmouth GBR/FRA
FRA Portsmouth-StMalo GBR/FRA StMalo
ENG Poole-Cherbourg Poole GBR/FRA
FRA Poole-Cherbourg GBR/FRA Cherbourg
ENG Plymouth-Roscoff Poole GBR/FRA
FRA Plymouth-Roscoff GBR/FRA Roscoff
ENG Portsmouth-Fishbourne Portsmouth Fishbourne
ENG CowesFloatingBridge Cowes East Cowes
ENG Southampton-EastCowes Southampton East Cowes
ENG WoolwichFerry NorthWoolwich Woolwich
ENG SandbanksFerry Sandbanks Studland
MLT GozoFerry Cirkewwa Mgarr
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on March 31, 2015, 08:39:54 AM
^^ Oh, BTW, cycling and walking are different but overlapping (as are cycling and roads - would driving along this bit of A13 (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=51.516608,0.014509&spn=0.000386,0.001032&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=51.516608,0.014509&panoid=_F_WRnon49pnqPz7bp_UzQ&cbp=12,230.82,,0,3.13) give you the adjecent section of CSH3 (the blue bit), would cycling this bit of CSH3 give you that bit of A13?* Other times the routes aren't segregated by a raised kerb Should the routes be concurrent on our servers and clinching one gives you the other? Massive can of worms and all sorts of work if yes!).

Most of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-distance_footpaths_in_the_United_Kingdom) aren't cycleable. Also,this route E8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E8_European_long_distance_path) is different from this route E8 (OK, it's EV8, but...) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV8_The_Mediterranean_Route) and this E8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E8) is very different too. bike.url and hike.url are separate subdomains. As are (arguably) tram.url and rail.url and (obviously) road.url

But all this is getting way ahead of ourselves...

*No and yes, as the A13 would include sidewalks, but the CSH3 is just the cycle superhighway.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Bickendan on March 31, 2015, 10:56:20 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 31, 2015, 12:20:50 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 30, 2015, 09:14:26 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 30, 2015, 08:45:25 PM
"MY Travels" is rather too cutesy for my liking. It also fails to specifically describe what is being mapped.

I could go for a rail equivalent although I feel it really needs to be a parallel site that doesn't render stuff on the same maps and whatnot. A LOT of people will care about only one or the other but not both.

So I propose the following two names:
Road Travel Mapping
Rail Travel Mapping

These names accurately describe what the sites do, in words laymen can understand, without sounding ridiculous.

What about ferries (auto-carrying and otherwise), which I'm a fan of including down the road? Or bus systems, local and intercity? The first could be fit into a road travels site, especially auto ferries, but awkwardly.  (But on second thought, roads and ferries might be a decent fit, since ferries run where the roads don't, ferry users often take highways to and from ferry terminals, and as with the Alaska Marine Highway System ferries are sometimes considered an extension of the land road system.)

Road Travel Mapping
Rail Travel Mapping
Ferry Travel Mapping
Bus Travel Mapping
Air Travel Mapping
etc.

Not limiting at all. Expand into as many things as anyone wants. But keep different modes separate because lumping everything together is just going to end up driving users away who don't care about a lot of the stuff.

If the above all existed I would be inputting data for roads, rails, and ferries certainly, but ignoring buses and planes. I would not appreciate having bus routes all show up as unclinched on my maps simply because I don't care to keep track. And I don't really want roads and rails on the same map either.

Ferries meanwhile are interesting since CHM already includes some where they are explicitly part of a numbered route and DOT operated. If we're going to have a side project on ferries it might be nice to cut them out of numbered routes where they are currently included and put them in with all the other non-DOT ferries. This way we can keep a standard that's more physically consistent.
Agree, though having the option to have these various maps overlayed onto each other as discreet layers would be nice. Probably a bit demanding on the coding and processing side, though.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on March 31, 2015, 12:12:42 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 31, 2015, 04:18:33 AM
Actually, CHM normally excludes ferries, and cuts into separate segments routes including ferries. The only exceptions I'm aware of in North America (can't speak to Europe) are in one of my domains, the Northwest Territories, for several river crossings on NT 1 and NT 8 that are ice bridges in the winter (so you can drive across as if they were regular roads), and covered by ferries in the summer. There are also a few short ferry crossings, not yet removed (that's on a to-do list), in the draft California state routes set.
There's also CT148 and CT160, drafted before splitting up routes with ferries became the official modus operandi. I've known about them, but just let them be...


Count me as another one on board with splitting up modes of travel onto separate subdomains, keeping things specific, focused, clean & uncluttered, as Duke87, Alps, Oscar and vdeane discussed.
...That is, IF the decision is made to branch out into other forms of travel. I'm really hesitant to open Pandora's Box and make things too unruly and too unfocused. Si's reply #202 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14801.msg2054431#msg2054431) has some good examples of why.

Quote from: oscar on March 30, 2015, 09:14:26 PM
But I agree that road and rail systems on the same maps would probably create clutter, in addition to not working for users who care only about one or the other. (Though I can see some people, like me, having some interest in merged maps, such as for Manitoba where I took a train to Churchill from where the primary highway network ends.)
To get ahead of ourselves a bit here, maybe have some functionality on the main top-domain site to make custom maps that include different modes of travel, and maybe even different subsystems therein. Oscar can make one of roads and trains; I can make one of roads and US Bike Routes; Melvin can make one of the NYC subways and the BART...

Quote from: Molandfreak on March 31, 2015, 01:53:53 AM
clinching.com is available. :nod:
What's this got to do with sports? ;)
travelclinching.ComNetOrgBBQ?

Or travelclinching travelmapping, as froggie suggested...
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: english si on April 01, 2015, 03:41:54 AM
Quote from: yakra on March 31, 2015, 12:12:42 PMCount me as another one on board with splitting up modes of travel onto separate subdomains, keeping things specific, focused, clean & uncluttered, as Duke87, Alps, Oscar and vdeane discussed.
And me! both in that I want separate and I have discussed such.
QuoteThat is, IF the decision is made to branch out into other forms of travel. I'm really hesitant to open Pandora's Box and make things too unruly and too unfocused. Si's reply #202 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14801.msg2054431#msg2054431) has some good examples of why.
What good examples? Good examples of why you want separate subdomains, sure, and good reasons for a lack of concurrency between stuff, but not really good examples of why we can't potentially use the software made for roads and have it work for bike. hike. and rail. projects that may or may not come, at a later date. Other things, save mainly boat. remain different or difficult. And the whole point of subdomains is to keep the curtain between networks anyway.

And 'IF' the decision? Yours is the first explicit statement against branching out. It's not that big an if! Certainly the consencious seems to be that we get the road stuff done and, if there's interest and a team (this might be a big 'IF', but seemingly not), other networks might be covered in their own subdomain.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Alps on April 01, 2015, 11:48:53 PM
also available: clinching.alpsroads.net
just sayin'
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: froggie on April 02, 2015, 10:12:41 AM
Yakra:  I didn't actually include "clinching" in the name, and I agree with others who suggest we should drop that part of the name.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: yakra on April 02, 2015, 02:04:24 PM
Oops. Typo/braino. Post edited.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: sipes23 on April 02, 2015, 08:37:39 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on March 30, 2015, 01:49:59 PM
Quote from: sipes23 on March 29, 2015, 08:31:06 PM
And if we're willing to go to Nigeria....

travelmappi.ng

I think we'd be required to assist deposed royalty (with a significant cut to us, of course!) if we do that :bigass:

Thank you for taking note of my humor.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: ntallyn on April 03, 2015, 06:54:42 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 27, 2015, 05:02:23 PM
But I'm not sure there's programming talent in the people not yet heard from in this thread, which is the most immediate need.

I haven't contributed any comments yet (mostly because I've been in and out quite a bit this month), but I've been in software development for close to 20 years now. And while I haven't used github, I expect it isn't really all that different from our remote git server.

And on a note that was mentioned earlier in the thread, I've been keeping my .list updated with the August route and point names.

Nick
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: froggie on April 04, 2015, 08:46:19 AM
After consultation with a few of the existing collaborators, I have reserved travelmapping.net for the new domain.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on April 04, 2015, 10:08:27 AM
Quote from: froggie on April 04, 2015, 08:46:19 AM
After consultation with a few of the existing collaborators, I have reserved travelmapping.net for the new domain.

You didn't ask me. :P lol.  I think that should work for a new name.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Highway63 on April 20, 2015, 06:04:43 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 27, 2015, 05:02:23 PM

There's one collaborator in particular who's done a lot of work in the upper Midwest, and his participation (or at least permissions) might mean less work re-creating route files in his areas.  But I'm not sure there's programming talent in the people not yet heard from in this thread, which is the most immediate need.

You rang?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: SSOWorld on April 20, 2015, 09:17:36 PM
Quote from: Jeff Morrison on April 20, 2015, 06:04:43 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 27, 2015, 05:02:23 PM

There's one collaborator in particular who's done a lot of work in the upper Midwest, and his participation (or at least permissions) might mean less work re-creating route files in his areas.  But I'm not sure there's programming talent in the people not yet heard from in this thread, which is the most immediate need.

You rang?
why yes, we did :D Welcome aboard!
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: tckma on May 07, 2015, 11:53:08 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 27, 2015, 05:02:23 PM
But I'm not sure there's programming talent in the people not yet heard from in this thread, which is the most immediate need.

Just recently discovered this thread off of the CHM website.

I'm a software engineer by trade.  Mostly I do C/C++ work and bash/python shell scripting.  What coding work is needed?
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: Jim on September 19, 2015, 10:58:23 AM
Quote from: froggie on April 04, 2015, 08:46:19 AM
After consultation with a few of the existing collaborators, I have reserved travelmapping.net for the new domain.

Do you have an easy ability to redirect subdomains of that name somewhere?  I'd like to set up the project's forum under something like "forum.travelmapping.net" either on my teresco.org server or on my hostmonster account, but we might as well try to get using the domain we've reserved.  I'd also like to get my temporary URLs for the project as we've all been using them to start using the travelmapping.net name as well.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: froggie on September 20, 2015, 02:44:43 PM
I can check into that.
Title: Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on January 24, 2016, 11:47:56 PM
Froggie, Jeff, Mwasleski, & Nick, please check your PMs here please.  Thank you. ;)