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Regional Boards => Canada => Topic started by: cbeach40 on January 16, 2018, 02:30:12 PM

Title: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: cbeach40 on January 16, 2018, 02:30:12 PM
Construction on the new freeway linking the Conestoga Parkway in Kitchener with the Hanlon Expressway in Guelph is set to resume soon. The question now is, what should it be called?

Should the Highway 7 number be shifted over to the new alignment? That would leave 7 as is through Kitchener and Guelph.
Should it be given a unique number? Should that number be applied elsewhere (Hanlon, Conestoga, etc.)?
Should further changes be made to the highway numbering in the area? Or just keep it as is?


Please share your ideas. And let's try to get the ball rolling and get some discussion, and brainstorm a bit. Please try to be constructive in any criticism. Thanks :)


For reference, the project website is here: http://newhighway7.ca/
And here's pretty well how it will tie in on each end of the project:
(http://www.tritag.ca/static/uploads/Highway-7-Screengrab.png)
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: NE2 on January 16, 2018, 03:30:37 PM
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?board=20
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: 1 on January 16, 2018, 03:44:50 PM
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?board=20

Nope. He's a DOT employee, so what we say could actually affect the outcome.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: cbeach40 on January 16, 2018, 04:32:12 PM
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?board=20

Nope. He's a DOT employee, so what we say could actually affect the outcome.

Public opinion on the matter is definitely one factor that's taken into consideration. So right now I'm trying to crowd source this to see what that even is
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: NE2 on January 16, 2018, 06:29:49 PM
407 is the obvious choice.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: yakra on January 16, 2018, 06:42:59 PM
407 is the obvious choice.
'salready used, innit? (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?r=on.on407)
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: formulanone on January 16, 2018, 07:16:37 PM
Does Ontario have a numbering format for new/former alignments?

Tempted to use 437 because it has a "7" and lots of folks tended to think that would be the next US Route. :) But the 400-series all seem to be interconnected, so this would be an orphan to that system.

107 works for me - there's enough visual space by having multiple digits, it's similar enough, and it's an unused number. Of course, this is quite similar to the model used in much of the northeastern US (or Mississippi).
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: vdeane on January 16, 2018, 07:42:08 PM
ON 7 would seem to make the most sense to me.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: cl94 on January 16, 2018, 07:54:56 PM
Highway 469. You know you want to do it.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: Alps on January 16, 2018, 07:55:11 PM
I think the historical pattern (last 20 years, anyway) has been to route the highway onto the new alignment, then download the old alignment back to the region. From a roadgeek perspective, I would prefer to see the new alignment get a new number and keep the old alignment in the system. But from a practicality perspective, I would imagine Ontario wants to maintain its mileage instead of maintaining two parallel highways serving similar functions.

On topic: Would Ontario ever consider a US-type system of business routes? The old road could be Business 7 - doesn't even need to be fully (or at all) provincially maintained.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: SignGeek101 on January 16, 2018, 09:31:59 PM
407 is the obvious choice.
'salready used, innit? (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?r=on.on407)

I get the feeling he already knew that  :D

Highway 469. You know you want to do it.
Tempted to use 437 because it has a "7" and lots of folks tended to think that would be the next US Route. :) But the 400-series all seem to be interconnected, so this would be an orphan to that system.

I'm guessing from the figures above, it won't be a freeway, so no 4##.

I'm going to say... have it be Highway 1...  :bigass:  :spin:

Seriously though, I agree with the others. I wish I could think of something more clever, but having the new roadway as highway 7 would be the most logical thing to do.  The old (current) highway 7 would become a new county route (not sure if there is a current county road 7 in either Wellington or Waterloo counties).
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: rickmastfan67 on January 16, 2018, 10:12:37 PM
I would say move ON-7 to the new highway, and if the old road isn't going to be downloaded, make it ON-7B.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: 7/8 on January 16, 2018, 10:29:05 PM
The new highway should become Highway 7, while the old highway west of Woolwich-Guelph Townline can be an extension of Waterloo Regional Road 55. East of Woolwich-Guelph Townline, it could become Wellington County Road 55.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: cl94 on January 17, 2018, 12:07:22 AM
The old road is almost certainly getting downloaded. This is Ontario. There is zero redundancy in what they maintain. Being serious, move 7 to the bypass. If ON wasn't so opposed to signing stuff on county-maintained roads, current 7 could become Highway 107.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: 1 on January 17, 2018, 08:33:20 AM
To Alps, rickmastfan67, and cl94: "Download". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Downloading is something you do on a computer. You mean "downgrade".
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: cbeach40 on January 17, 2018, 08:34:24 AM
"Downloading" was the term used in the late 90s because 90s. It referred to services going from being provided by the provincial government to a lower, municipal one. The technical term for it, and has been used long before and long after the 97-98 downloading, is "transfer" of a highway.

To clear up some confusion, here's the programmed network for the area. Blue freeway, red conventional provincial highway.
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/cfaafc5b02299d20ac437483e3170f57/tumblr_p2pc97gVXU1qan4oto1_1280.png)


The new freeway will tie into the Hanlon, which is slated for upgrade to full freeway standard. Ultimately it will provide a continuous L-shaped freeway from Highway 401 to the Conestoga Parkway and an alternative to Highway 401 et al between 401 and KW.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: 7/8 on January 17, 2018, 08:47:49 AM
To Alps, rickmastfan67, and cl94: "Download". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Downloading is something you do on a computer. You mean "downgrade".

Download seems to be the term used in Ontario. I'm not sure if any other provinces or states use the term, but Ontario seems to use it a lot. Here's a few sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_provincial_highways_in_Ontario (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_provincial_highways_in_Ontario)
Quote
In 1997 and 1998, many sections of the provincial highway network were downloaded to local municipalities (such as cities, counties or regional municipalities) by the Ontario Ministry of Transportation as a cost-saving measure. While highways were occasionally transferred to local governments in the past, the 1997-1998 downloads represented the most significant changes to Ontario's highway network.

http://www.thekingshighway.ca/jan11998.html (http://www.thekingshighway.ca/jan11998.html)
Quote
This was a sad day in the history of Ontario's highways. On January 1, 1998, 3,210 km of provincial highways were transferred or "downloaded" to local authorities. This was in addition to the 1,766 km of provincial highways that were lost on March 31, 1997. The roads that were downloaded ceased to be King's Highways, and became County, Regional, District, or Municipal roads instead.

Here's one used for more than just highways:

http://prudentpress.com/politics/an-amalgamated-megacity-how-ontario-became-a-have-not-province-pt-3/ (http://prudentpress.com/politics/an-amalgamated-megacity-how-ontario-became-a-have-not-province-pt-3/)
Quote
During Harris’s term, the PC’s had “downloaded” (otherwise known as transferred) countless provincial services and programs onto regional municipalities. These services included the Ontario Disability Support Program (ODSP), land ambulance services (formerly under the Ministry of Health), public transit funding for major cities (TTC-Toronto, OC Transpo – Ottawa, etc and others.)

In fact, Harris PC’s had downloaded $3 billion of costs onto municipalities — including child care, transit, housing, and public health — which then led to higher property taxes and an infrastructure deficit.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: Stephane Dumas on January 17, 2018, 04:05:25 PM

The new freeway will tie into the Hanlon, which is slated for upgrade to full freeway standard. Ultimately it will provide a continuous L-shaped freeway from Highway 401 to the Conestoga Parkway and an alternative to Highway 401 et al between 401 and KW.

I would had liked to see the K-G freeway extended east to Brampton and Hwy-410 along with a northern extension of the Hanlon Expwy along Hwy-6 north to Fergus and Arthur but I fall into fictionnal highways territory.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: rickmastfan67 on January 17, 2018, 09:15:26 PM
To clear up some confusion, here's the programmed network for the area. Blue freeway, red conventional provincial highway.
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/cfaafc5b02299d20ac437483e3170f57/tumblr_p2pc97gVXU1qan4oto1_1280.png)


The new freeway will tie into the Hanlon, which is slated for upgrade to full freeway standard. Ultimately it will provide a continuous L-shaped freeway from Highway 401 to the Conestoga Parkway and an alternative to Highway 401 et al between 401 and KW.

If the entire thing is going to become a freeway connecting to the 401, I would then recommend renumbering the entire thing as 477 then w/ overlaps of 6 & 7 so those routes don't become disconnected.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: haljackey on January 17, 2018, 10:27:39 PM
Probably going to be Highway 7

407 can still be used though. There's 407 ETR and 407 East, so no real 407 yet.

Maybe call it 407 west?  :-D
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: formulanone on January 18, 2018, 08:40:22 AM
To Alps, rickmastfan67, and cl94: "Download". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Downloading is something you do on a computer. You mean "downgrade".

In the less technical sphere* of road discussion, it's okay to use synonyms: Downgrade, download, decommission, downgrade, transferred, and off-load seem to be used interchangeably to describe a "higher classification of road changing to a lower classification", even though some of those words have other specific or alternate meanings when using them in other contexts.

You wouldn't "downgrade" or "off-load" a battleship from military use, but it can be decommissioned. Losing an airline seat upgrade wouldn't be called getting "downloaded" or "transferred", but downgraded.

In a technical or official description, each DOT or form of governance would use a consistent term.

In the case of an internet forum or personal discussion, I personally kind of prefer the first way...reading/heading the same word repeatedly when a synonym exists is actually quite tedious.

* not an actual sphere
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: cbeach40 on January 18, 2018, 01:25:14 PM
I would had liked to see the K-G freeway extended east to Brampton and Hwy-410 along with a northern extension of the Hanlon Expwy along Hwy-6 north to Fergus and Arthur but I fall into fictionnal highways territory.

A bypass of the urban section of Highway 6 in Guelph is on the books, but no timeline on that.
An ultimate design of where it would meet the new freeway is still to be determined, but traffic patterns and construction staging would all but demand that the Guelph-KW alignment would be the through route.

(https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/attachments/upload_2017-4-17_13-26-57-png.105453/)
(From Wellington County Official Plan I'm told)
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: MisterSG1 on January 18, 2018, 08:03:40 PM
Chris, do you know what becomes of the “old” Highway 7, in other words Victoria Street?

My logic is this, considering that Highways 7, 8, and 85 are freeways in the Kitchener-Waterloo area and no one bats an eye on these freeways not having 400 series numbers, it’s obvious that the new road should be called Highway 7, and the old one could be something along the lines of RR-107 if downloading does occur.


Speaking of the term “downloading”, it doesn’t refer to a downgrade per se, but rather governments passing the buck on responsibility. Didn’t Chretien’s government in the early 1990s download certain responsibilities to provinces? I assume download comes from the province being higher than the region/county or city, and if something that was maintained by the city then had its maintenance controlled by the province, it would be referred to as “uploading”. Indeed I recall that term being floated around in the early 2010s in articles suggesting that the Gardiner between Hwy 427 and Humber River be “uploaded” to the province.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: yakra on January 19, 2018, 12:24:47 AM
Ontario seems to use it a lot. Here's a few sources:

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_provincial_highways_in_Ontario
In 1997 and 1998, many sections of the provincial highway network were downloaded to local municipalities (such as cities, counties or regional municipalities) by the Ontario Ministry of Transportation as a cost-saving measure. While highways were occasionally transferred to local governments in the past, the 1997-1998 downloads represented the most significant changes to Ontario's highway network.
Quote from: http://www.thekingshighway.ca/jan11998.html
This was a sad day in the history of Ontario's highways. On January 1, 1998, 3,210 km of provincial highways were transferred or "downloaded" to local authorities. This was in addition to the 1,766 km of provincial highways that were lost on March 31, 1997. The roads that were downloaded ceased to be King's Highways, and became County, Regional, District, or Municipal roads instead.

Quote from: http://web.archive.org/web/20111004040629/http://www.the506.com/roads/NB/002.html
Route number 2 has been used as the designation for the main inter-city highway through New Brunswick ever since the start of the province's highway system. It was part of an "inter-provincial" highway 2 that stretched from Windsor, Ontario to Halifax, Nova Scotia. (That's no longer around: When Quebec underwent a mass renumbering of its highways in 1974, this inter-provincial highway 2 was broken up, to be followed about 25 years later by Ontario's "downloading" of the entire length of its highway 2 to local control.)
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: webfil on January 20, 2018, 12:10:00 PM
The new freeway will tie into the Hanlon, which is slated for upgrade to full freeway standard. Ultimately it will provide a continuous L-shaped freeway from Highway 401 to the Conestoga Parkway and an alternative to Highway 401 et al between 401 and KW.

In that case, I do not despise the idea of a new 400-series designation. I'd assign 408 to an upgraded highway 6/7/8 and reuse 85 for the 401/Conestoga connector.
(https://i.imgur.com/0QsSUVX.png)
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: cbeach40 on January 22, 2018, 01:18:38 PM
Chris, do you know what becomes of the “old” Highway 7, in other words Victoria Street?

The plan is to transfer the highway to the municipalities upon the opening of the new route. Of course, that was the plan for old Hwy 17 at Antrim, Hwy 69 at Lake Joseph, or Hwy 26 at Wasaga Beach (Beachwood Rd), among many, many others. MTO's still stuck with them, as downloading highways has been virtually nonexistent in this province for the last 10-15 years, and what has occurred has been the result of some serious negotiation to get the municipalities to accept it.

My logic is this, considering that Highways 7, 8, and 85 are freeways in the Kitchener-Waterloo area and no one bats an eye on these freeways not having 400 series numbers, it’s obvious that the new road should be called Highway 7, and the old one could be something along the lines of RR-107 if downloading does occur.

I wouldn't quite say no one bats an eye - the collision stats at the decision points for 7/8, 7, 8, and 85 skew higher than comparable locations elsewhere in the province. Not to say that the lack of route continuity is the culprit, but it's certainly not helping anyone.

In terms of 7 to either side, the section to the west is accessible via a nearly 50 km overlap with Highway 8. While the portion from Guelph east is under review as part of the GTA West study, so who knows if that is even long for this world as a provincial highway. Or it could be around for a long time. But do you want to handcuff yourselves there?

For Highway 6 south of 401, the section from Highway 5 to the Hamilton-Wellingtonj boundary is yet to be determined its future configuration - whether it remains as a five lane conventional highway or is upgraded to 400-series standards. So no idea what its future is either.

Speaking of the term “downloading”, it doesn’t refer to a downgrade per se, but rather governments passing the buck on responsibility. Didn’t Chretien’s government in the early 1990s download certain responsibilities to provinces? I assume download comes from the province being higher than the region/county or city, and if something that was maintained by the city then had its maintenance controlled by the province, it would be referred to as “uploading”. Indeed I recall that term being floated around in the early 2010s in articles suggesting that the Gardiner between Hwy 427 and Humber River be “uploaded” to the province.
Some services were transferred from the Federal Government to the provinces - the ferry docks at Leamington-Kingsville-Pelee, for example. As I stated before, the practice has been in place for ages. Just in the 1990s a the Tories came up with a trendy tech-y name for it that's stuck around a bit since.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on January 23, 2018, 09:32:00 AM
Downgrade the old route to County/Township 7 (or 77), make the new route Hwy 7, and when the freeway connection to 401 is complete renumber the new route to 437.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: aboges26 on January 24, 2018, 09:17:13 PM
447 would be my pick if someone made me planner (as in "4" lanes "4" highway "7"  :sombrero:).  Considering the GTA West study, I wouldn't route whatever number is chosen for the new freeway down the Hanlon after upgrades as that has a foreseeable destiny for a 400 series number taking over Highway 6 from Hamilton to points north of Guelph (in a perfect world).

If 448 is ever built out by Markham and GTA West is built with an extension east to meet it, 447 would sure complement and not seem like an outlier choice.

Thank you for sharing the map of what is programmed, cbeach40, and crowdsourcing for the new number.  I have always viewed MTO as being a premier transportation agency/department/ministry and this just makes me love MTO even more!
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: dmuzika on March 08, 2018, 06:22:37 PM
Here's an opportunity to combine hockey and roads. :D


Coincidentally, the numbers both involve '7'. My proposal is if 407 is already in use, then the 477 might be a possibility (unless there are plans for Hwy 77).
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: MisterSG1 on April 23, 2018, 12:39:16 PM
My logic is this, considering that Highways 7, 8, and 85 are freeways in the Kitchener-Waterloo area and no one bats an eye on these freeways not having 400 series numbers, it’s obvious that the new road should be called Highway 7, and the old one could be something along the lines of RR-107 if downloading does occur.

I wouldn't quite say no one bats an eye - the collision stats at the decision points for 7/8, 7, 8, and 85 skew higher than comparable locations elsewhere in the province. Not to say that the lack of route continuity is the culprit, but it's certainly not helping anyone.
[/quote]

I know this is a few months old, but only got to responding now.

Interesting, cbeach40, do you know why this is the case. Which of the main 3 decision points has the most collisions? I assume there are 3 main ones we are referring to, Hwy 401 WB/Hwy 8, Hwy 7/Hwy 7/8/Hwy 8 interchange (yes that's definitely confusing to think about), and the Hwy 7/Hwy 85 interchange. I have always noticed that there is a fair amount of aggressive driving on the 401 WB approach to the Hwy 8 exit.

How do collision stats compare to 403/407 ETR in Mississauga? Because to be fair in my humble opinion, they don't give you enough signs warning you that you have to essentially "exit" to stay on Hwy 403. It's not much of a problem at all regarding Hwy 403 EB through there, but I'm specifically wondering about Hwy 403 WB.



Here's an idea I have, from what I've heard from people (mind you it's people I can count with one hand), the portion of the road known as 7/8, 7, and 85 through Kitchener/Waterloo is commonly called "the expressway" even if there's three distinct route segments. Since the name "Conestoga Parkway" has been on pretty much any GPS software and map program around, (I first encountered that name using Microsoft Streets & Trips 2002) as well as it explicitly mentions in the MTO Handbook and online as one of the roads a G1 driver cannot use. Perhaps one solution could be to reintroduce the Conestoga Parkway name.

It's just an idea, personally I'd like to see all of the Conestoga Parkway get it's own unique 400 series number, but I understand this would be pretty much impossible as it would require the highway routes of 7 and 8 to be eliminated through Kitchener.

Another problem, depending on how you look at it, is that the Conestoga Parkway could more simply be understood as following the shape of a backwards "L", this is problematic because the cardinal directions at some point would have to switch from east to north (if you were headed from Stratford to St Jacobs) or from south to west. I don't know if drivers struggle with a similar situation on I-69 in Michigan.

Personally, I don't see how this can be done to ease simplicity of the routes. Perhaps a downloading of Hwy 7 from the western end of the conestoga parkway to the western city limits of Brampton could make this doable, with the new Hwy 7 freeway also getting a unique highway number, I don't know, I'm just floating this idea around.
Title: Re: ON - New Kitchener-Guelph Freeway Numbering
Post by: cbeach40 on April 24, 2018, 09:31:41 AM
I wouldn't quite say no one bats an eye - the collision stats at the decision points for 7/8, 7, 8, and 85 skew higher than comparable locations elsewhere in the province. Not to say that the lack of route continuity is the culprit, but it's certainly not helping anyone.

I know this is a few months old, but only got to responding now.

Interesting, cbeach40, do you know why this is the case. Which of the main 3 decision points has the most collisions? I assume there are 3 main ones we are referring to, Hwy 401 WB/Hwy 8, Hwy 7/Hwy 7/8/Hwy 8 interchange (yes that's definitely confusing to think about), and the Hwy 7/Hwy 85 interchange. I have always noticed that there is a fair amount of aggressive driving on the 401 WB approach to the Hwy 8 exit.

How do collision stats compare to 403/407 ETR in Mississauga? Because to be fair in my humble opinion, they don't give you enough signs warning you that you have to essentially "exit" to stay on Hwy 403. It's not much of a problem at all regarding Hwy 403 EB through there, but I'm specifically wondering about Hwy 403 WB.

The main decision points are the three approaches to the Kitchener interchange (EB 7/8, WB 7, WB 8) and the two approaches to the Victoria St interchange (EB 7, SB 85). The Highway 401-8 interchange doesn't have quite the same high proportion of lane change collisions as those ones, but rear end collisions unsurprisingly make up the vast bulk of the collisions at that point.

Hwy 403 at the 407 and 401-410 interchanges were definitely two of my comparable locations. The proportion of the collisions there that are lane change type is roughly half of what the Kitchener locations have.