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Regional Boards => International Highways => Topic started by: TheGrassGuy on December 10, 2019, 03:44:14 PM

Title: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on December 10, 2019, 03:44:14 PM
(No coronavirus comments here! Post them here instead: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26301.0)

I'm surprised no one has created this thread yet. Now, let it be clear that this thread is about the PRC's road system; if you're looking for roads in Taiwan or Hong Kong, then you're in the wrong place.

So here's a basic rundown of roads in China. China's expressway system is called the National Trunk Highway System (中国国家干线公路系统). It contains nationally- and provincially-maintained expressways, prefixed with G (for 国/guo, the Chinese word for "country") and S (for 省/sheng, the Chinese word for "province"). It has 142,500 km of expressway, which is the largest such system in the world, and nearly twice the length of the interstate highway system. It is also the fastest-growing expressway system in the world. It expands so fast, and the route numbers change so easily, in fact, that Google Maps isn't really accurate sometimes. A more accurate option would be Baidu Maps and QQ Maps, and as a bonus, they both have equivalents of GSV too (though I would caution against using the latter's, as it uses Flash). Almost all of it is tolled (for a price not cheap), and there are toll booths at provincial boundaries, even on the non-expressways. And most of the time, they remain outside downtowns of cities.

The national expressways are also known as the "71118 network" (formerly 7918, until two more were added over the years). This is because it consists of 7 radial expressways, 11 N-S expressways, and 18 E-W expressways. G1-G7 are radial expressways from Beijing to other major cities in China, G11-G85 are the N-S expressways from east to west, G10-G80 are the E-W expressways from north to south, and G91-G99 are large beltway too large to be auxiliary routes. Note that the numbering pattern is in the opposite direction as the interstate highway system, and in the same direction as US highways.

There are also auxiliary and suffixed routes, formed by adding 2 extra digits or a suffix to the parent route number respectively. 0 followed by a digit 1-9 indicates a beltway (unlike here, most beltways in China are complete). 1 followed by a digit 1-9 indicates a spur route (these can be pretty long, actually, as all are supposed to cross a provincial border at least once). Suffixed routes are given an additional digit at the end (e.g. G15W2) if there are more than one on a parent route.

(More recently, suffixed routes have been replaced by auxiliary routes with 2 followed by a digit 1-9 after the parent router's number. Even more recently, the auxiliary routes have been renumbered so that there are no duplicates. For example, there used to be four G1501s, but now there is only one, and the rest are G1502, G1502, and G1504. These changes are so new that no mapping agencies, not even Chinese ones, have reflected these changes, and they seem to, for the most part, only exist on paper.)

Here is a map of the NTHS:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/China_National_Expressway_Network_english_-_Copy.svg)

Provincial expressways work in much of the same way as national expressways, except that they are prefixed with S, have a yellow banner instead of a red one, and are contained within a single province much like state highways in the US. The numbering system of S-routes depends on which province you are in; in Fujian Province, they can even be 4-digit auxiliary routes. Many of these have been converted into auxiliary G-routes once extended past a provincial boundary.

Oh, and one more thing. Due to legal restrictions on Chinese GPS data, mapping agencies outside of the PRC must misalign their maps of mainland China. This means that satellite imagery does not align with the maps, and that roads get cut off at international borders. Know this before ranting here. And please try not to make this thread political, for the love of God.

Helpful links:
Expressways in China - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_of_China
List of NTHS expressways - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NTHS_Expressways
List of NTHS auxiliary expressways - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_auxiliary_NTHS_Expressways
List of provincial expressways of China - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Regional_Expressways_of_China

TL;DR: Mainland China's road system is so good that it makes ours look like a joke.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: US 89 on December 10, 2019, 03:46:38 PM
That map is so big it's unreadable.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: ozarkman417 on December 10, 2019, 05:01:22 PM
TL;DR: Mainland China's road system is so good that it makes ours look like a joke.

Given their population and the number of major cities, it needs to bigger and better.
Chinathe rest of the developed world also beats us by a long shot when it comes to (passenger) rail service.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: kphoger on December 10, 2019, 05:32:46 PM
China the rest of the developed world also beats us by a long shot when it comes to (passenger) rail service.

How, exactly, do you figure Canada's passenger rail service "beats ours by a long shot"?
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on December 10, 2019, 06:13:55 PM
That map is so big it's unreadable.
Have you tried waiting awhile?
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: 1 on December 10, 2019, 06:15:05 PM
That map is so big it's unreadable.
Have you tried waiting awhile?

You can scale it down by specifying width and height. Make sure that you don't change the aspect ratio when choosing numbers. Here is the code.
Code: [Select]
[img width=800 height=657]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/China_National_Expressway_Network_english_-_Copy.svg[/img]
Most images are automatically scaled down on this forum, but .svg files are not.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Kniwt on December 10, 2019, 10:33:58 PM
Due to legal restrictions on Chinese GPS data, mapping agencies outside of the PRC must misalign their maps of mainland China.

Can you say more about this? Are alignments just off by a km or two here and there, or is the discrepancy more severe -- such as, say, I-5 going to San Francisco instead of Sacramento?
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Alps on December 10, 2019, 10:59:22 PM
Due to legal restrictions on Chinese GPS data, mapping agencies outside of the PRC must misalign their maps of mainland China.

Can you say more about this? Are alignments just off by a km or two here and there, or is the discrepancy more severe -- such as, say, I-5 going to San Francisco instead of Sacramento?
I think it's just misaligned globally as opposed to distorted.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Chris on December 11, 2019, 04:03:52 AM
Chinese expressways tend to have lower design speeds, with 80, 100 and 120 kmh/ appearing to be common. Since a large proportion of China is mountainous, a relatively large share of the expressway system has only an 80 km/h design speed, even in China there is a need to cut cost. There are tens of thousands of miles of expressway that run through incredible terrain. I-70 through the Glenwood Canyon would just look like any other expressway in provinces like Guizhou, Yunnan or Guangxi.

Guizhou province in particular has extremely rugged terrain, most of their expressways have a bridge/tunnel ratio of over 50%, sometimes even exceeding 80%. The province of Guizhou has more high bridges than all other countries in the world combined.

China has also passed the U.S. for having the highest elevation expressways. The highest opened so far is G0613 at Bayan Har Pass at 4829 meters (15,843 ft) above sea level. There are several others that are higher than I-70 through the Eisenhower Tunnel.

Chinese expressways are both numbered and named. Their names are a portmanteau of their endpoints. For example G0613 is named Xili Expressway, short for Xining - Lijiang Expressway. Older expressways tend to have additional multiple names dating back to the initially constructed segments. It is also not uncommon for provincial (S) expressways to be absorbed into a longer national (G) expressway.

Some subdivisions of China are not provinces, but regions, for example Guangxi and Inner Mongolia, but they seem to maintain S-numbering for their expressways.

Much like the U.S., the expressways are developed and owned by the provinces. Each province usually has an expressway development agency and an expressway operation agency. There used to be toll plazas at provincial borders but they are now being scrapped and turned into an interoperable system, the goal was to have this completed by the end of 2019.

Also interesting, China tends to open its new expressways in bursts, the biggest bang is always in the last 10 days of December, when they open thousands of miles of new expressways, but also just before or at national holidays. So the 142,500 km figure will likely exceed 150,000 kilometers by 31 December.

One commonly cited goal of expressway construction is to 'alleviate poverty-stricken areas'. It is seen as very prestigious to have all prefectures and counties in a province linked by expressway. These issues are very often cited in the Chinese media when a new expressway opens or starts construction.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: 1 on December 11, 2019, 07:50:49 AM
Due to legal restrictions on Chinese GPS data, mapping agencies outside of the PRC must misalign their maps of mainland China.

Can you say more about this? Are alignments just off by a km or two here and there, or is the discrepancy more severe -- such as, say, I-5 going to San Francisco instead of Sacramento?

Someone gave me Python code to fix the misalignment (this was for an internship, but not my current one). It's much less than 1 km.

You can see the difference in satellite view.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: kphoger on December 11, 2019, 11:43:06 AM

Due to legal restrictions on Chinese GPS data, mapping agencies outside of the PRC must misalign their maps of mainland China.

Can you say more about this? Are alignments just off by a km or two here and there, or is the discrepancy more severe -- such as, say, I-5 going to San Francisco instead of Sacramento?

The misalignment is neither a set distance nor a set direction.  Rather, different locations are offset by a different factor(s), which is determined by an algorithm proprietary to the Chinese government.  Specifically, the latitude and longitude of different locations are shifted by different amounts based on the algorithm.  The difference can be as little as ~100 meters or as great as nearly ¾ km.  For 1 to have been given a conversion tool, such was either specifically allowed by the Chinese government or else back-engineered by leaked information.  Considering it was for an internship, one would hope the former.

Mapping sites whose street maps match their satellite imagery in China have either...
(1)  offset both maps to the Chinese datum (e.g., Here), or
(2)  collected mapping information illegally from personal GPS devices (e.g., OSM), or
(3)  created a further level of obfuscation that doesn't actually match either datum (e.g., Baidu).
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on December 11, 2019, 12:28:27 PM
BTW I challenged FritzOwl to turn this into an interstate system yesterday on PM. Haven't heard from him yet.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: ozarkman417 on December 11, 2019, 05:05:34 PM
BTW I challenged FritzOwl to turn this into an interstate system yesterday on PM. Haven't heard from him yet.
He may just incorporate it into his existing interstate system, creating ferries across the Pacific.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on December 11, 2019, 06:30:41 PM
BTW I challenged FritzOwl to turn this into an interstate system yesterday on PM. Haven't heard from him yet.
He may just incorporate it into his existing interstate system, creating ferries across the Pacific.
Come on, he's not THAT crazy, is he? There are definitely more than 99 possible N-S highways in America AND China, you get the gist.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on December 12, 2019, 01:41:19 PM
You also have to check Chinese rail transit systems. They are only in the beginning, but plans are really massive. Many cities are planning over 250 miles of metro lines.
BTW I challenged FritzOwl to turn this into an interstate system yesterday on PM. Haven't heard from him yet.

No need. Combine all provincial expressway plans, and you get real life FritzOwling :sombrero:.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on December 13, 2019, 07:14:12 PM
You also have to check Chinese rail transit systems. They are only in the beginning, but plans are really massive. Many cities are planning over 250 miles of metro lines.
BTW I challenged FritzOwl to turn this into an interstate system yesterday on PM. Haven't heard from him yet.

No need. Combine all provincial expressway plans, and you get real life FritzOwling :sombrero:.

¿Ditto para las autostradas en España? :sombrero:
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on December 17, 2019, 06:11:03 PM
You know, with all the elevated freeways and lane expansions going around in major cities, not to mention the destruction to smaller towns and villages by new additions to the national expressway system, the amount of NIMBYs in China must be ridiculous.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Alps on December 17, 2019, 06:38:22 PM
You know, with all the elevated freeways and lane expansions going around in major cities, not to mention the destruction to smaller towns and villages by new additions to the national expressway system, the amount of NIMBYs in China must be ridiculous.
They don't have a voice.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on December 17, 2019, 06:49:53 PM
You know, with all the elevated freeways and lane expansions going around in major cities, not to mention the destruction to smaller towns and villages by new additions to the national expressway system, the amount of NIMBYs in China must be ridiculous.
They don't have a voice.
Thank God for America
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: In_Correct on December 18, 2019, 11:57:10 AM
Many of the villages had no road system before until they dug one of their own. China has many rail lines including passenger rail. The road system is tolled also, with nationwide bus service. I am impressed with the road and rail systems in China, considering that they had to build them through mountains. This makes the numerous bridges and tunnels necessary. The only thing I am disappointed in is that the roads were built with Tarmac. I prefer Cement.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: kphoger on December 18, 2019, 01:34:21 PM
The only thing I am disappointed in is that the roads were built with Tarmac. I prefer Cement.

Rest assured, good sir, that asphalt concrete has cement in it.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: andrepoiy on March 17, 2020, 06:54:30 PM
From what my parents say, at least in Shanghai, people WANT their land to be taken by the government (for infrastructure or redevelopment etc.) because the government reimburses the displaced people more money than what their property was worth.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: STLmapboy on October 10, 2020, 12:16:49 PM
Wikipedia says that Chinese expressways are usually posted in Chinese and English, except for Inner Mongolia (Mongolian and Chinese) and Xinjiang (Uyghur and Chinese). But a road video from Qinghai on the G6 Beijing-Lhasa expressway shows some signs in Chinese, English, Mongolian, and Uyghur. Here's the video in question (note the Chinglish at 0:17):

Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on October 24, 2020, 11:36:13 AM
Wikipedia says that Chinese expressways are usually posted in Chinese and English, except for Inner Mongolia (Mongolian and Chinese) and Xinjiang (Uyghur and Chinese). But a road video from Qinghai on the G6 Beijing-Lhasa expressway shows some signs in Chinese, English, Mongolian, and Uyghur. Here's the video in question (note the Chinglish at 0:17):


Very cool how for Mongolian, they use the traditional Mongolian script, rather than the Cyrillic alphabet.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Kniwt on October 31, 2020, 02:06:43 PM
Wikipedia says that Chinese expressways are usually posted in Chinese and English, except for Inner Mongolia (Mongolian and Chinese) and Xinjiang (Uyghur and Chinese). But a road video from Qinghai on the G6 Beijing-Lhasa expressway shows some signs in Chinese, English, Mongolian, and Uyghur. Here's the video in question (note the Chinglish at 0:17)

100km/h minimum speed for cars?! (At 5:10) I could get into that.

(https://i.imgur.com/OM8y0x4.png)
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on November 06, 2020, 09:24:06 AM
Wikipedia says that Chinese expressways are usually posted in Chinese and English, except for Inner Mongolia (Mongolian and Chinese) and Xinjiang (Uyghur and Chinese). But a road video from Qinghai on the G6 Beijing-Lhasa expressway shows some signs in Chinese, English, Mongolian, and Uyghur. Here's the video in question (note the Chinglish at 0:17):


How many Mongolians and Uyghurs are there in Tibet, anyway?
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on November 18, 2020, 05:47:49 PM
TIL that "S3500" exists in Hebei.

(According to Baidu)

 :awesomeface:
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on November 18, 2020, 06:37:26 PM
If you ever feel ugly, just remember that this sign exists.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/325778946853699584/778765744858464296/unknown.png)
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on November 18, 2020, 07:24:23 PM
These two are expressways... in a remote region of China.

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/325778946853699584/778777529653002250/unknown.png?width=1263&height=613)
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Chris on November 19, 2020, 05:43:07 AM
That is G56 Hangrui Expressway near Dali in western Yunnan. This is a first generation mountain expressway, they typically have low design standards, most of those were built before 2005 and are now being upgraded with new alignments or parallel routes.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: bing101 on November 19, 2020, 11:45:07 AM

Here is a tour of the [color=var(--ytd-video-primary-info-renderer-title-color, var(--yt-spec-text-primary))]Chongqing Expressway

[/color]
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on January 21, 2021, 08:04:45 PM
I go to China about once every other year, so I've seen their freeway system many times. Though I haven't traveled on it for a long distance trip at all, considering that the freeway system is tolled in most parts and that high speed rail is cheap. But for the times I've been on the Chinese freeways, the one I used the most is by far G15, because I travel through the coastal cities (normally Shanghai, Fuzhou, Xiamen and Shenzhen) the most. Feels like China's I-95 to me in some parts.

At this point, I'm not sure whether China's freeways is more like FritzOwl's stuff or not. They have some freeways that I would consider redundant with each other, like G42 and G50. But at the same time, they have a lot of province level (Sxx) freeways, which I'm 100% sure that FritzOwl would've turned into interstates at this point. There's a couple of province level freeways with the same auxiliary route numbering as the national freeways instead of their own system, like Fuzhou's Airport Freeway is numbered S1531 (this is the only one I know of, since I'm most familiar with Fuzhou out of all Chinese cities, there's most likely more).

I like how China numbers their auxiliary nationals freeways . Instead of an x15 for example, it's a 15xx. Unless a parent route has more than 99 child routes, pretty much eliminates number duplication between auxiliary freeways. There's only one suffixed freeway I can think of: G15W through Hangzhou and Suzhou, while the G15 mainline (correct me if it's actually called G15E) goes through Shanghai.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: vdeane on January 21, 2021, 09:15:48 PM
They have some freeways that I would consider redundant with each other, like G42 and G50.
Or G6 and G7 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9523333,112.2998234,10.75z).  Reminds me of some I-11 proposals in Arizona.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: 1 on January 21, 2021, 09:24:57 PM
They have some freeways that I would consider redundant with each other, like G42 and G50.
Or G6 and G7 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9523333,112.2998234,10.75z).  Reminds me of some I-11 proposals in Arizona.

You know if you're a Wikipedia addict if...

your first thought upon seeing G6 and/or G7 is "this should be deleted, and it's not even controversial".
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on January 21, 2021, 09:34:14 PM
They have some freeways that I would consider redundant with each other, like G42 and G50.
Or G6 and G7 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9523333,112.2998234,10.75z).  Reminds me of some I-11 proposals in Arizona.
I forgot about G7 :facepalm:. Looking at Xinjiang and considering how desolate that area is, G30 is more than enough for that area. And it parallels G6 very closely through remote areas in Inner Mongolia for most of its route until... Xinjiang.

Think China even have a high speed rail line into Xinjiang. For almost all other countries, that idea is laughable to even think about, let alone actually constructing it.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on January 23, 2021, 10:45:33 AM
Wait till FritzOwl sees this :sombrero:
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on January 23, 2021, 01:12:57 PM
Wait till FritzOwl sees this :sombrero:
Does he even post outside of fictional?
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: 1 on January 23, 2021, 01:17:53 PM
Wait till FritzOwl sees this :sombrero:
Does he even post outside of fictional?
No.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Chris on January 23, 2021, 05:48:18 PM
I wouldn't underestimate the population density of most of Eastern China. China has 1.4 billion people and over 1.3 billion of them live on less than half of the Chinese land area in the east. The western regions and provinces of Xinjiang, Tibet, Qinghai, Gansu & Inner Mongolia account for 5.25 million square kilometers and only 82 million people (6% of total): a population density lower than Sweden or Kansas.

Most people have never heard of Shandong or Henan, yet these provinces reach almost 100 million people each and have a higher population density than New Jersey.

This high population density results in a dense grid on the East China plains and increasingly also in mountain provinces like Guizhou, Guangxi or Yunnan.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on January 24, 2021, 01:01:31 AM
I wouldn't underestimate the population density of most of Eastern China. China has 1.4 billion people and over 1.3 billion of them live on less than half of the Chinese land area in the east. The western regions and provinces of Xinjiang, Tibet, Qinghai, Gansu & Inner Mongolia account for 5.25 million square kilometers and only 82 million people (6% of total): a population density lower than Sweden or Kansas.

Most people have never heard of Shandong or Henan, yet these provinces reach almost 100 million people each and have a higher population density than New Jersey.

This high population density results in a dense grid on the East China plains and increasingly also in mountain provinces like Guizhou, Guangxi or Yunnan.
Also explains their high speed rail lines in the eastern part of the country, in addition to the freeways. Between Fuzhou and Shanghai, a trip I make pretty frequently while in China, I took the original coastal route via Wenzhou the first couple of times, then the most recent trip took me on an inland route via Nanping. They're constructing a second, Beijing-Shanghai high speed rail line with a more coastal routing.

In the case of Shandong and Henan, I knew that Qingdao was a large city since a long time ago. Their provincial capitals, Zhengzhou and Jinan, are in the top 20 for population in China too. Luoyang and Kaifeng are smaller than the other 3 mentioned, but as ancient capitals of China, it's popular with tourists.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on January 24, 2021, 09:02:12 AM
I wouldn't underestimate the population density of most of Eastern China. China has 1.4 billion people and over 1.3 billion of them live on less than half of the Chinese land area in the east. The western regions and provinces of Xinjiang, Tibet, Qinghai, Gansu & Inner Mongolia account for 5.25 million square kilometers and only 82 million people (6% of total): a population density lower than Sweden or Kansas.

Most people have never heard of Shandong or Henan, yet these provinces reach almost 100 million people each and have a higher population density than New Jersey.

This high population density results in a dense grid on the East China plains and increasingly also in mountain provinces like Guizhou, Guangxi or Yunnan.
Also explains their high speed rail lines in the eastern part of the country, in addition to the freeways. Between Fuzhou and Shanghai, a trip I make pretty frequently while in China, I took the original coastal route via Wenzhou the first couple of times, then the most recent trip took me on an inland route via Nanping. They're constructing a second, Beijing-Shanghai high speed rail line with a more coastal routing.

In the case of Shandong and Henan, I knew that Qingdao was a large city since a long time ago. Their provincial capitals, Zhengzhou and Jinan, are in the top 20 for population in China too. Luoyang and Kaifeng are smaller than the other 3 mentioned, but as ancient capitals of China, it's popular with tourists.

Another ABC roadgeek? :poke:
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Chris on January 24, 2021, 12:38:37 PM
In the case of Shandong and Henan, I knew that Qingdao was a large city since a long time ago. Their provincial capitals, Zhengzhou and Jinan, are in the top 20 for population in China too. Luoyang and Kaifeng are smaller than the other 3 mentioned, but as ancient capitals of China, it's popular with tourists.

I think people and media in general are quite ignorant about China. Many people can't name more than three cities in China (Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong).

A year ago the world media was finding out that some unknown city called Wuhan was actually one of the world's largest cities. But it could've been any other massive city: Chengdu, Chongqing, Guangzhou or Zhengzhou, other megacities relatively few foreigners have heard of.

People and the media should pay a little more attention to China beyond the standard rhetoric. They are quickly becoming dominant in the world. The Belt & Road Initiative has been taking over construction and economic development across Asia and Africa and also increasingly the Middle East and South America. China is much more active in acquiring stakes in European port infrastructure than many people realize. China may 'only' be a trade issue in North America, elsewhere the Chinese are increasingly settled in the economic system.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on January 24, 2021, 12:54:15 PM
In the case of Shandong and Henan, I knew that Qingdao was a large city since a long time ago. Their provincial capitals, Zhengzhou and Jinan, are in the top 20 for population in China too. Luoyang and Kaifeng are smaller than the other 3 mentioned, but as ancient capitals of China, it's popular with tourists.

I think people and media in general are quite ignorant about China. Many people can't name more than three cities in China (Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong).

A year ago the world media was finding out that some unknown city called Wuhan was actually one of the world's largest cities. But it could've been any other massive city: Chengdu, Chongqing, Guangzhou or Zhengzhou, other megacities relatively few foreigners have heard of.

People and the media should pay a little more attention to China beyond the standard rhetoric. They are quickly becoming dominant in the world. The Belt & Road Initiative has been taking over construction and economic development across Asia and Africa and also increasingly the Middle East and South America. China is much more active in acquiring stakes in European port infrastructure than many people realize. China may 'only' be a trade issue in North America, elsewhere the Chinese are increasingly settled in the economic system.

...not to mention a gigantic expressway system that rivals ours :awesomeface:
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: kurumi on January 24, 2021, 01:02:17 PM
If you ever feel ugly, just remember that this sign exists.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/325778946853699584/778765744858464296/unknown.png)

I see what you mean; that simplified hanzi for "east". Traditional character on the left, butchered on the right

東 东

Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on January 24, 2021, 01:33:31 PM
If you ever feel ugly, just remember that this sign exists.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/325778946853699584/778765744858464296/unknown.png)

I see what you mean; that simplified hanzi for "east". Traditional character on the left, butchered on the right

東 东

The character "東" never appears on this sign. Or on any other road signs in Mainland China, for that matter.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Chris on January 25, 2021, 05:57:08 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/XDeOf1n.jpg)
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: abqtraveler on January 25, 2021, 09:28:02 AM
Wikipedia says that Chinese expressways are usually posted in Chinese and English, except for Inner Mongolia (Mongolian and Chinese) and Xinjiang (Uyghur and Chinese). But a road video from Qinghai on the G6 Beijing-Lhasa expressway shows some signs in Chinese, English, Mongolian, and Uyghur. Here's the video in question (note the Chinglish at 0:17)

100km/h minimum speed for cars?! (At 5:10) I could get into that.

(https://i.imgur.com/OM8y0x4.png)

The landscape in the video looks a lot like New Mexico! :D
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on January 25, 2021, 10:06:17 AM
Wikipedia says that Chinese expressways are usually posted in Chinese and English, except for Inner Mongolia (Mongolian and Chinese) and Xinjiang (Uyghur and Chinese). But a road video from Qinghai on the G6 Beijing-Lhasa expressway shows some signs in Chinese, English, Mongolian, and Uyghur. Here's the video in question (note the Chinglish at 0:17)

100km/h minimum speed for cars?! (At 5:10) I could get into that.

(https://i.imgur.com/OM8y0x4.png)

The landscape in the video looks a lot like New Mexico! :D
That’s Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia for you

On the other hand, a decent portion of the country is mountainous, so you have a lot of freeways like I-70 in CO.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on January 31, 2021, 05:33:05 PM
Something else I noticed with freeway interchanges in China: true diamond interchanges are rare.
On the tolled portions of the freeways, normally it's a trumpet or parclo. On the free portions in urban areas, the most common interchange looks like a diamond on a map, but functions like a SPUI with a centralized signals set. A hybrid of flyovers and loop ramps are also common for interchanges with busier arterials.

Here's an example of one of those "SPUI that looks like a diamond interchange" on Fuzhou's 2nd ring road:
- Sattelite View (https://maps.baidu.com/@13283200.671863401,2994241.3304853607,19.65z,50t/maptype%3DB_EARTH_MAP)
- Street View (note that the extended dotted lines for the lagging protected left turns may or may not be there depending on how wide the overpass is. In this case, the overpass is 4 lanes wide) (https://maps.baidu.com/@13283250.46,2994232.41,21z,87t,75.46h#panoid=09002100121906141134347147I&panotype=street&heading=260.42&pitch=-0.61&l=21&tn=B_NORMAL_MAP&sc=0&newmap=1&shareurl=1&pid=09002100121906141134347147I)

Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Chris on February 02, 2021, 06:46:12 AM
An interchange on G1501 on the southeast side of Guangzhou. It's located between two large bridges of the Pearl River Delta:

(https://i.imgur.com/nvdWawB.jpg)
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Bickendan on February 02, 2021, 09:44:28 AM
^Uh, isn't that what I-10 in Phoenix was originally supposed to do?
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on February 02, 2021, 09:58:38 AM
An interchange on G1501 on the southeast side of Guangzhou. It's located between two large bridges of the Pearl River Delta:

I'm pretty sure this is not part of the G1508 (the real number of the Guangzhou beltway), but of the provincial expressway S6, Guangzhou-Longchuan expressway.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on February 02, 2021, 09:59:56 AM
^Uh, isn't that what I-10 in Phoenix was originally supposed to do?
I had to check Road Guy Rob's Phoenix video as a point of comparison, and it's pretty similar to what's on the thumbnail of that vid.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on February 02, 2021, 10:06:12 AM
An interchange on G1501 on the southeast side of Guangzhou. It's located between two large bridges of the Pearl River Delta:

I'm pretty sure this is not part of the G1508 (the real number of the Guangzhou beltway), but of the provincial expressway S6, Guangzhou-Longchuan expressway.
yep, it's S6
https://maps.baidu.com/@12641047.796911709,2602216.0536084166,17.8z/maptype%3DB_EARTH_MAP

On another note, it seems like China renumbered a lot of the auxiliary freeways so the numbers doesn't duplicate. Like Guangzhou's G1501 became G1508 as mentioned, Fuzhou's G1501 became G1505 and Shanghai's G1501 became G1503. I actually like this, since there's 99 unique numbers they could use before having to duplicate, compared to 9 in the US 3di system. Google maps haven't updated with the renumbering yet, so it's best to check Baidu maps for that.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on February 05, 2021, 12:38:55 PM
Yeah. Chinese highway numbering is a mess.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on March 16, 2021, 06:50:53 PM
I found this YT channel that drives, walks and does metro rides around many Chinese Cities called Walk East (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCip2HiAmspOVMeh0yxMcEaA). Here's a 1 1/2 hour drive around of Fuzhou, including city streets, historical alleys and the 2nd Ring Road.


Not going to leave too many timestamps here, but 1:01:03 is a good example of the lagging left turn yield line movement on a ramp in the SPUI-Diamond Hybrid interchange I mentioned upthread, as the main type of freeway to arterial interchange in the country (yes, traditional diamonds are rare).
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on March 17, 2021, 09:31:32 AM
I found this YT channel that drives, walks and does metro rides around many Chinese Cities called Walk East (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCip2HiAmspOVMeh0yxMcEaA). Here's a 1 1/2 hour drive around of Fuzhou, including city streets, historical alleys and the 2nd Ring Road.


Not going to leave too many timestamps here, but 1:01:03 is a good example of the lagging left turn yield line movement on a ramp in the SPUI-Diamond Hybrid interchange I mentioned upthread, as the main type of freeway to arterial interchange in the country (yes, traditional diamonds are rare).
Oh yeah, I've heard of that channel. :-D
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on April 30, 2021, 11:33:32 PM
Just read on how exit numbers work on Chinese freeways. I thought that it's like the US: starts at the south or west, and increases as you go north/east, and that it resets at provincial borders, but I was wrong on both.

- Exit numbers/km markers start at the eastern or northern terminus (or in Beijing for G1-G7), and increase as you go west or south.
- Km markers and exit numbers don't reset at provincial borders.
- Exit numbers reset every 1000 km, but since km markers don't reset, exit numbers are always the 3 digits between the thousands place and the decimal.
- Exit numbers round down, regardless of the decimal place number.
- Yes, exit 0 exists.
- If there are multiple exits in a km, it gets a letter suffix, like in the US.
- With that in mind, for example, an exit at the 2468.9 km marker would be numbered as exit 468.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: kphoger on May 01, 2021, 05:14:16 PM
Frankly, I think it's kind of strange that mile markers do reset at state lines here.

The only other country I drive in regularly—Mexico—tends to reset its kilometer markers at control cities.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: 1 on May 01, 2021, 05:47:16 PM
Frankly, I think it's kind of strange that mile markers do reset at state lines here.

The only other country I drive in regularly—Mexico—tends to reset its kilometer markers at control cities.

What control cities would you use for a route like US 202, where it goes through suburbia but doesn't hit big cities?
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: kphoger on May 01, 2021, 06:10:24 PM

Frankly, I think it's kind of strange that mile markers do reset at state lines here.

The only other country I drive in regularly—Mexico—tends to reset its kilometer markers at control cities.

What control cities would you use for a route like US 202, where it goes through suburbia but doesn't hit big cities?

Sorry, I didn't mean to say I think control cities are the best way to assign mileposts.  I just used it as an example I think is better than state lines.  Frankly, I'd rather a highway start at zero at one end and just keep going up and up until the other end.  However, that doesn't work so well when it gets extended past the zero point.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on May 02, 2021, 12:00:31 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean to say I think control cities are the best way to assign mileposts.  I just used it as an example I think is better than state lines.  Frankly, I'd rather a highway start at zero at one end and just keep going up and up until the other end.  However, that doesn't work so well when it gets extended past the zero point.
In China's system, the endpoints are set already in name too (in addition to the mileposts), and there's no changing it. For example, G15 is called the Shenyang-Haikou (Shenhai) Expressway because those are the cities the highway ends at. The portmanteau name is written on reassurance markers too, which means an extended highway would result in the replacement of many reassurance markers. When a new parallel highway was contructed between Shenyang and Harbin to the southeast of G1, it was numbered as G1212 and G1211 even though a G15 extension probably would've been better if the endpoints are not set in stone.

And then there are set endpoints that I doubt the highway would reach in the next decade or two. Examples are Taipei for G3 and Lhasa for G6.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on May 02, 2021, 01:08:46 PM
Why does almost every thread here have arguments about control cities? :hmmm:
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on May 02, 2021, 01:26:40 PM
Why does almost every thread here have arguments about control cities? :hmmm:
control cities are starting to control this forum now

But since this is a Chinese highways thread, maybe we should start talking about control cities on Chinese highways  :hmmm:.
I think in general, they sign way too many control cities. This is Fuzhou's Airport Expressway (S1531) at its northern end of the concurrency with G15:
(https://i.imgur.com/DhnRqbn.png)
One of my issues with China's expressways is that cardinal directions aren't signed. If I don't know where those control cities are, I wouldn't be able to tell that the ramp on the left is for G15 north, and on the right for G15 south. For the control cities, Wenzhou on NB and Shantou on SB aren't necessary at this point imo. For NB, Ningde is fine as the sole control city, as it's the next city up. Same with Putian for SB, along with Airport for S1531, which the highway isn't signed along with G15 for the SB ramp for some reason, as that's where the concurrency starts.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Rothman on May 02, 2021, 02:01:51 PM
Why does almost every thread here have arguments about control cities? :hmmm:
It's time for an intervention.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on May 02, 2021, 03:13:16 PM
One of my issues with China's expressways is that cardinal directions aren't signed. If I don't know where those control cities are, I wouldn't be able to tell that the ramp on the left is for G15 north, and on the right for G15 south. For the control cities, Wenzhou on NB and Shantou on SB aren't necessary at this point imo. For NB, Ningde is fine as the sole control city, as it's the next city up. Same with Putian for SB, along with Airport for S1531, which the highway isn't signed along with G15 for the SB ramp for some reason, as that's where the concurrency starts.
It's like that in a few other countries, such as Germany.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: ran4sh on May 02, 2021, 04:17:24 PM
"One of my issues with China's expressways is that cardinal directions aren't signed." - You would probably have the same issue with roads in Europe, because they don't use cardinal directions either.

And the number of control cities in the US is based on being able to read them within the time that the sign is visible. We can't just automatically apply the same "1 control city" (or 2) limit to Chinese signs, it should be based on similar principles of how many can be read while the sign is visible. (Or the way the British do it, which is based on whether you can find the city you are looking for, within the time that the sign is visible.)

In China's system, the endpoints are set already in name too (in addition to the mileposts), and there's no changing it.

One benefit of such a system is that there is no argument as to whether route number N should or should not serve city X. If a route is designated as going from A to B, then presumably its route should always be based on what's the best route from A to B, and not whether it serves or doesn't serve some intermediate point C, D, E, etc. For example, US roadgeeks often debate whether route X should go through a city center or use a bypass. I think the answer should really be based on what we want traffic on that route to use, so designating the purpose of a route helps with that.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: Chris on May 02, 2021, 04:36:17 PM
Cardinal directions on signage is mostly an American thing, hardly any other country except perhaps Canada consistently uses cardinal directions on their signage.

However I've seen some photos of Chinese reassurance markers having cardinal directions.

(https://i.imgur.com/5eJvMFv.jpg)
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on May 02, 2021, 05:06:14 PM
One benefit of such a system is that there is no argument as to whether route number N should or should not serve city X. If a route is designated as going from A to B, then presumably its route should always be based on what's the best route from A to B, and not whether it serves or doesn't serve some intermediate point C, D, E, etc. For example, US roadgeeks often debate whether route X should go through a city center or use a bypass. I think the answer should really be based on what we want traffic on that route to use, so designating the purpose of a route helps with that.
Chinese G-roads rarely even pass through city centers. They're usually served by locally maintained limited-access highways, often known as "elevated roads" if they're elevated, and sometimes S-roads.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on May 02, 2021, 05:08:48 PM
Cardinal directions on signage is mostly an American thing, hardly any other country except perhaps Canada consistently uses cardinal directions on their signage.

However I've seen some photos of Chinese reassurance markers having cardinal directions.

[img snipped]
Excuse my ignorance then. Thought the lacking cardinal directions is more of an exception instead of the norm. I know a general idea of where Chinese cities are in relation to the location of the sign, so I could do with it. Just wondering about people that are unfamiliar to an area (especially with a foreign language) and trying to drive on the freeways.
Though yes, the reassurance markers have cardinal directions on it.

In China's system, the endpoints are set already in name too (in addition to the mileposts), and there's no changing it.

One benefit of such a system is that there is no argument as to whether route number N should or should not serve city X. If a route is designated as going from A to B, then presumably its route should always be based on what's the best route from A to B, and not whether it serves or doesn't serve some intermediate point C, D, E, etc. For example, US roadgeeks often debate whether route X should go through a city center or use a bypass. I think the answer should really be based on what we want traffic on that route to use, so designating the purpose of a route helps with that.
This is the case for most roads, though there are exceptions. G15 is an example. As mentioned above, the two endpoints are Shenyang and Haikou, except both water crossings near each endpoint is incomplete, so I'll look at between Guangzhou and Lianyungang. Fastest routing between those two points is a combination of the inland G45-G60-G70-G50-G42-G25 routing, and using G15 all the way isn't an option as it's the coastal route of China's system. So even with both incomplete crossings done, G15 is not the fastest/shortest route between Shenyang and Haikou due to its coastal routing and serving the coastal population centers like Shenzhen, Xiamen, Fuzhou, Wenzhou, Shanghai on the way.

This one is less noticeable, but the G25-G15 combination between Beijing and Shanghai is faster than G2, the Beijing-Shanghai Expressway, by about half an hour.

As for serving the city center, the two digit G expressways generally bypass the city center to some extent, with spurs (national, provincial, unnumbered just named), arterials or ring roads serving it from the expressway.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on May 03, 2021, 03:36:50 AM
In China's system, the endpoints are set already in name too (in addition to the mileposts), and there's no changing it. For example, G15 is called the Shenyang-Haikou (Shenhai) Expressway because those are the cities the highway ends at. The portmanteau name is written on reassurance markers too, which means an extended highway would result in the replacement of many reassurance markers.

When the 2013 plan was issued, I wondered why they had given new numbers to obvious extensions of previously planned expressways (G1216 instead of G12, G2515 instead of G2511, G4012 instead of G4011) . However, they renamed G85 from Chongqing-Kunming to Yinchuan-Kunming expressway instead of giving a new number to the newly added Yinchuan-Chongqing section. I wonder if they have finished changing signs South of Yu (Chongqing, perhaps the most Chinese-sounding city xD).
When a new parallel highway was contructed between Shenyang and Harbin to the southeast of G1, it was numbered as G1212 and G1211 even though a G15 extension probably would've been better if the endpoints are not set in stone.

That had been planned that way from the 2005 plan. G1211 is the Jilinshi (or Jilin City, adding the "shi" so as to tell it apart from the same-named province)-Heihe expressway (running beyond Harbin all the way to the Russian border) and G1212 is the Shenyang-Jilinshi expressway. Also note than in both cases kmposts run the "wrong" way, starting from the South.
And then there are set endpoints that I doubt the highway would reach in the next decade or two. Examples are Taipei for G3 and Lhasa for G6.

AFAIK Nagqu-Lhasa is at least U/C, but I don't think they would fill the gap between Golmud and Nagqu anytime soon. And I don't think G3 will ever reach Taibei, due to both technical and political issues.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: kphoger on May 03, 2021, 01:19:44 PM
Cardinal directions on signage is mostly an American thing, hardly any other country except perhaps Canada consistently uses cardinal directions on their signage.

Cardinal directions are part of the Mexican SCT manual, but they're hardly ever used in real life.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on May 05, 2021, 12:44:59 AM
From a browse on Baidu Maps, seems like some of the newer BGS installations have pinyin for control cities now.
(https://i.imgur.com/vCk99SB.png?1)
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on May 07, 2021, 08:36:24 PM
From a browse on Baidu Maps, seems like some of the newer BGS installations have pinyin for control cities now.
(https://i.imgur.com/vCk99SB.png?1)
It obviously depends on the location, as well: signs in rich provinces like Jiangsu and Guangdong are more likely to have English translations than signs in poor provinces like Anhui and Fujian.
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: andrepoiy on May 07, 2021, 11:07:07 PM
Fujian is a poor province?
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: SkyPesos on May 07, 2021, 11:16:53 PM
Fujian is a poor province?
Yes, it’s a common thought from richer areas like the Yangtze and Pearl River delta areas that Fujian is a poor province. But for tourism, Xiamen is much more popular destination than Fuzhou for both Chinese and foreigners, so maybe they have pinyin on their freeway BGS before Fuzhou did. The old control city BGS in Fujian is like what I sent earlier in the thread:
(https://i.imgur.com/DhnRqbn.png)
Title: Re: Chinese expressways and highways
Post by: TheGrassGuy on January 13, 2022, 11:59:51 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_auxiliary_NTHS_Expressways#List_of_Provincial_expressways_that_wrongly_use_NTHS-like_codes

I'm noticing a lot of 2019 and above expressways and I can't even remember if I factored them in