AARoads Forum

As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city  :bigass:

Is it a money issue?

Probably.

Pixel 5

Funny, I used to use that intersection to get to my Dad's apartment back in the 1990s.  It was particularly infamous for long back ups which would clog the turn lane.  Really most of the intersections south of there weren't all that bad and didn't really seem back when I revisited a couple years ago. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 25, 2021, 09:19:58 AM
Funny, I used to use that intersection to get to my Dad's apartment back in the 1990s.  It was particularly infamous for long back ups which would clog the turn lane.  Really most of the intersections south of there weren't all that bad and didn't really seem back when I revisited a couple years ago.

But what about during rush hour?

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 09:27:15 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 25, 2021, 09:19:58 AM
Funny, I used to use that intersection to get to my Dad's apartment back in the 1990s.  It was particularly infamous for long back ups which would clog the turn lane.  Really most of the intersections south of there weren't all that bad and didn't really seem back when I revisited a couple years ago.

But what about during rush hour?

I never found Lake Shore any worse than the Kennedy or Dan Ryan through downtown.  South of Navy Pier Lake Shore is pretty well access controlled as is.  Getting rid of at-grade intersections anywhere along Grant Park would require some extensive pedestrian considerations be made.  I used to use the signal at Jackson to cross from the running path on Lake Michigan a lot, it did have a long pedestrian cycle. 

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city  :bigass:

Is it a money issue?

From Monroe to McFetridge there are a couple of issues.

There is a long standing covenant for Grant Park which requires it to maintain an unobstructed view of Lake Michigan.

This means to remove the lights in this area, LSD would have to go down.

While technically possible, it would require a Boston like "big dig" to get LSD below lake level.

Grant Park is all landfill that was recovered from Lake Michigan and certain parts are still subject to subsidence. Closer to Michigan Avenue the city was able to create Millennium Park by covering the former Illinois Central tracks (which were originally on piers in the actual water).

So you either raise the entire park or lower the entire road to stay in compliance with the covenant.

Chicago has had long conversations and engineering reports on the possibility of connecting Queens Landing and Buckingham Fountain using some sort of pedestrian viaduct under LSD.

One of the big issues with this has been drainage. An elaborate pump system would have to be installed as it is illegal for that water to be vented directly into the lake. It has to pass through the city system.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city

Which L trains, specifically, could be removed if the intersections were grade-separated?  Lake Shore Drive doesn't even come within a half-mile of any elevated CTA station.

(OK, as the crow flies, I suppose it gets to a half-mile from the Loop itself...)

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 10:35:34 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city

Which L trains, specifically, could be removed if the intersections were grade-separated?  Lake Shore Drive doesn't even come within a half-mile of any elevated CTA station.

(OK, as the crow flies, I suppose it gets to a half-mile from the Loop itself...)

The Green Line runs on a roughly parallel alignment. If LSD had all this extra capacity, many Southside residents could drive to work. For those that can't afford cars or don't have parking available at work, you can put a dedicated bus lane on the LSD.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 10:40:48 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 10:35:34 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city

Which L trains, specifically, could be removed if the intersections were grade-separated?  Lake Shore Drive doesn't even come within a half-mile of any elevated CTA station.

(OK, as the crow flies, I suppose it gets to a half-mile from the Loop itself...)

The Green Line runs on a roughly parallel alignment. If LSD had all this extra capacity, many Southside residents could drive to work. For those that can't afford cars or don't have parking available at work, you can put a dedicated bus lane on the LSD.

If you're trying to drive into downtown Chicago when you have a train line available you're doing it wrong.  Upgrading LSD does little to impact the overall bottleneck downtown is and the overall lack of limited access capacity getting there. 

There was this guy on the forum once that was into Sabbs that thought he had all the answers for that...  :rolleyes:

I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

The only feasible solution I see downtown would be essentially to "tunnel" it while keeping the at grade boulevard type setup through Grant Park and Museum Campus. Too much land would be needed otherwise, and with the cost of such an undertaking, I highly doubt that would happen in our lifetimes. I am glad that they have plans to remove the Chicago Ave intersection and straighten out that curve at Oak Street Beach. However, if they really wanted to make LSD more viable for commuters from the North Suburbs, they'd need to extend it to Evanston (something Rogers Park residents will fight tooth and nail).

Quote from: ChiMilNet on March 25, 2021, 10:55:48 AM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

The only feasible solution I see downtown would be essentially to "tunnel" it while keeping the at grade boulevard type setup through Grant Park and Museum Campus. Too much land would be needed otherwise, and with the cost of such an undertaking, I highly doubt that would happen in our lifetimes. I am glad that they have plans to remove the Chicago Ave intersection and straighten out that curve at Oak Street Beach. However, if they really wanted to make LSD more viable for commuters from the North Suburbs, they'd need to extend it to Evanston (something Rogers Park residents will fight tooth and nail).

How would you extend lsd to Evanston? Fill in Lake Michigan?

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 10:40:48 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 10:35:34 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city

Which L trains, specifically, could be removed if the intersections were grade-separated?  Lake Shore Drive doesn't even come within a half-mile of any elevated CTA station.

(OK, as the crow flies, I suppose it gets to a half-mile from the Loop itself...)

The Green Line runs on a roughly parallel alignment. If LSD had all this extra capacity, many Southside residents could drive to work. For those that can't afford cars or don't have parking available at work, you can put a dedicated bus lane on the LSD.

You mean like how the Red Line doesn't exist south of Loop, because everyone drives the Ryan?  Or how the Blue Line doesn't exist west of the Loop, because everyone drives the Ike?

Anyway...  People don't take the Green Line from Bronzeville to the Loop because traffic sucks at a few stoplights on Lake Shore Drive.  They take the Green Line because they live near it or can get to it by bus, don't own a car or don't want to pay for parking or don't want the hassle of driving downtown, work somewhere that's also easily accessible by CTA...  Grade-separating LSD wouldn't change any of those factors, except minutely diminishing the hassle of driving downtown–which only applies to those trips where people would actually be taking Lake Shore Drive, which is very few, considering that the Ryan would be a more direct route for most of them.

Hyde Park and Jackson Park, I guess.  You might get some people off the Cottage Branch of the Green Line.  Maybe.  That's it.

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 11:08:39 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 10:40:48 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 10:35:34 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city

Which L trains, specifically, could be removed if the intersections were grade-separated?  Lake Shore Drive doesn't even come within a half-mile of any elevated CTA station.

(OK, as the crow flies, I suppose it gets to a half-mile from the Loop itself...)

The Green Line runs on a roughly parallel alignment. If LSD had all this extra capacity, many Southside residents could drive to work. For those that can't afford cars or don't have parking available at work, you can put a dedicated bus lane on the LSD.

You mean like how the Red Line doesn't exist south of Loop, because everyone drives the Ryan?  Or how the Blue Line doesn't exist west of the Loop, because everyone drives the Ike?

Anyway...  People don't take the Green Line from Bronzeville to the Loop because traffic sucks at a few stoplights on Lake Shore Drive.  They take the Green Line because they live near it or can get to it by bus, don't own a car or don't want to pay for parking or don't want the hassle of driving downtown, work somewhere that's also easily accessible by CTA...  Grade-separating LSD wouldn't change any of those factors, except minutely diminishing the hassle of driving downtown–which only applies to those trips where people would actually be taking Lake Shore Drive, which is very few, considering that the Ryan would be a more direct route for most of them.

Hyde Park and Jackson Park, I guess.  You might get some people off the Cottage Branch of the Green Line.  Maybe.  That's it.

The Dan Ryan is a parking lot.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 11:00:03 AM

Quote from: ChiMilNet on March 25, 2021, 10:55:48 AM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

The only feasible solution I see downtown would be essentially to "tunnel" it while keeping the at grade boulevard type setup through Grant Park and Museum Campus. Too much land would be needed otherwise, and with the cost of such an undertaking, I highly doubt that would happen in our lifetimes. I am glad that they have plans to remove the Chicago Ave intersection and straighten out that curve at Oak Street Beach. However, if they really wanted to make LSD more viable for commuters from the North Suburbs, they'd need to extend it to Evanston (something Rogers Park residents will fight tooth and nail).

How would you extend lsd to Evanston? Fill in Lake Michigan?

That's how it was extended North back in the day was via landfill. On top of it, the realignment and removal of the Chicago Ave intersection is going to require some notable landfill to make happen. Actually, this would add a lot of nice parkland along the lakefront (plus extend the lakefront trail North). However, the reason I say Roger's Park will fight it is because of private properties that stand to lose their private shorelines, unless they could find a way to "lagoon" to them.

Quote from: ChiMilNet on March 25, 2021, 02:14:37 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 11:00:03 AM

Quote from: ChiMilNet on March 25, 2021, 10:55:48 AM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

The only feasible solution I see downtown would be essentially to "tunnel" it while keeping the at grade boulevard type setup through Grant Park and Museum Campus. Too much land would be needed otherwise, and with the cost of such an undertaking, I highly doubt that would happen in our lifetimes. I am glad that they have plans to remove the Chicago Ave intersection and straighten out that curve at Oak Street Beach. However, if they really wanted to make LSD more viable for commuters from the North Suburbs, they'd need to extend it to Evanston (something Rogers Park residents will fight tooth and nail).

How would you extend lsd to Evanston? Fill in Lake Michigan?

That's how it was extended North back in the day was via landfill. On top of it, the realignment and removal of the Chicago Ave intersection is going to require some notable landfill to make happen. Actually, this would add a lot of nice parkland along the lakefront (plus extend the lakefront trail North). However, the reason I say Roger's Park will fight it is because of private properties that stand to lose their private shorelines, unless they could find a way to "lagoon" to them.

I don't think Roger's park residents will get much sympathy for trying to stop the city from creating more public space for the enjoyment of all. If the funds were available, the mayor and governor would hold a groundbreaking ceremony tomorrow for Chicago's newest park. They would essentially tell Rogers' Park residents "So sue us"

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 02:44:23 PM

Quote from: ChiMilNet on March 25, 2021, 02:14:37 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 11:00:03 AM

Quote from: ChiMilNet on March 25, 2021, 10:55:48 AM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

The only feasible solution I see downtown would be essentially to "tunnel" it while keeping the at grade boulevard type setup through Grant Park and Museum Campus. Too much land would be needed otherwise, and with the cost of such an undertaking, I highly doubt that would happen in our lifetimes. I am glad that they have plans to remove the Chicago Ave intersection and straighten out that curve at Oak Street Beach. However, if they really wanted to make LSD more viable for commuters from the North Suburbs, they'd need to extend it to Evanston (something Rogers Park residents will fight tooth and nail).

How would you extend lsd to Evanston? Fill in Lake Michigan?

That's how it was extended North back in the day was via landfill. On top of it, the realignment and removal of the Chicago Ave intersection is going to require some notable landfill to make happen. Actually, this would add a lot of nice parkland along the lakefront (plus extend the lakefront trail North). However, the reason I say Roger's Park will fight it is because of private properties that stand to lose their private shorelines, unless they could find a way to "lagoon" to them.

I don't think Roger's park residents will get much sympathy for trying to stop the city from creating more public space for the enjoyment of all. If the funds were available, the mayor and governor would hold a groundbreaking ceremony tomorrow for Chicago's newest park.

Not going to disagree with you on that! There have been proposals in the past, though nothing that gained much footing, and at this point, the state barely has enough money to fix the highways it has, let alone extend LSD North. I can't even imagine the cost to do such an extension! Although, that would definitely enhance the need to consider removing the at grade intersections in Grant Park!

Can I just end the debate by referencing this recent NASCAR news for a downtown Chicago iRacing event that includes Lake Shore Drive?

https://www.jayski.com/2021/03/24/nascar-to-run-iracing-event-on-chicago-street-course-could-lead-to-actual-race/

Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 25, 2021, 03:08:14 PM
Can I just end the debate ... ?

doubt it

Regarding kernals12's comment about removing L trains, which I interpret as a reference to burying L trains underground (although I'm sure he means just getting rid of the trains altogether), I recall the last time I was in Chicago, I visited my (then-)firm's Chicago office (I don't work for that firm anymore) and I commented on how noisy and unsightly the elevated trains are in the modern world. They unanimously agreed but said they're generally viewed as being a sort of local institution or trademark that most people in Chicago would just as soon preserve as they are–similar to how some sports fans don't want older ballparks like Wrigley Field or Fenway Park replaced even though those ballparks have cramped seating, sometimes obstructed views, and often inadequate facilities like restrooms.

It takes surprisingly little time of living by the L tracks to get used to the noise.  So they tell me.

(I've never lived next to the L, but I did briefly live/stay next to the UP-W in DuPage County, here (https://goo.gl/maps/AyGuU5n9jQxfiUf5A)–with Metra commuter trains, intermodal hotshots, and coal unit trains running down it at all hours.  It was summer, the apartment had no air conditioning, and I slept in the front room with the door open.  By the time those six weeks were over, I was already used to the trains.)

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city  :bigass:

Is it a money issue?

Far cheaper and easier to just make all the LSD intersections roundabouts. Voila, no stoplights. Tracks saved. Everyone wins.  :bigass:

or RIROs

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 25, 2021, 03:17:24 PM
Regarding kernals12's comment about removing L trains, which I interpret as a reference to burying L trains underground (although I'm sure he means just getting rid of the trains altogether), I recall the last time I was in Chicago, I visited my (then-)firm's Chicago office (I don't work for that firm anymore) and I commented on how noisy and unsightly the elevated trains are in the modern world. They unanimously agreed but said they're generally viewed as being a sort of local institution or trademark that most people in Chicago would just as soon preserve as they are–similar to how some sports fans don't want older ballparks like Wrigley Field or Fenway Park replaced even though those ballparks have cramped seating, sometimes obstructed views, and often inadequate facilities like restrooms.

Really? Why can't elevated highways get that kind of love?

Elevated highways aren't nostalgic.

(cue everyone to provide counterexamples)

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 25, 2021, 03:17:24 PM
Regarding kernals12's comment about removing L trains, which I interpret as a reference to burying L trains underground (although I'm sure he means just getting rid of the trains altogether), I recall the last time I was in Chicago, I visited my (then-)firm's Chicago office (I don't work for that firm anymore) and I commented on how noisy and unsightly the elevated trains are in the modern world. They unanimously agreed but said they're generally viewed as being a sort of local institution or trademark that most people in Chicago would just as soon preserve as they are–similar to how some sports fans don't want older ballparks like Wrigley Field or Fenway Park replaced even though those ballparks have cramped seating, sometimes obstructed views, and often inadequate facilities like restrooms.

I recall once reading a Tribune article where they interviewed residents along the Brown Line closer to the Kimball end of the line, and they generally had the same consensus - unsightly & noisy, but it's just part of the city.

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 03:29:40 PM
It takes surprisingly little time of living by the L tracks to get used to the noise.  So they tell me.

(I've never lived next to the L, but I did briefly live/stay next to the UP-W in DuPage County, here–with Metra commuter trains, intermodal hotshots, and coal unit trains running down it at all hours.  It was summer, the apartment had no air conditioning, and I slept in the front room with the door open.  By the time those six weeks were over, I was already used to the trains.)

I recall one of the people they interviewed in above article said the same thing - that after a period of time, the trains just became white noise to her.

(My only direct experience with this is once staying in a hotel inside the Loop near the Washington/Wells station - the first night I definitely noticed the rumbling of passing trains until the L stops around 1/1:30, but on subsequent nights it just blended into the background with all the other city noises.)

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 03:29:40 PM
It takes surprisingly little time of living by the L tracks to get used to the noise.  So they tell me.

(I've never lived next to the L, but I did briefly live/stay next to the UP-W in DuPage County, here (https://goo.gl/maps/AyGuU5n9jQxfiUf5A)–with Metra commuter trains, intermodal hotshots, and coal unit trains running down it at all hours.  It was summer, the apartment had no air conditioning, and I slept in the front room with the door open.  By the time those six weeks were over, I was already used to the trains.)

I believe that. I lived across from an at-grade railroad crossing for three years (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0067252,-78.9317321,17.25z) (the crossing is where the "St" is in "Anderson St" just north of the Durham Freeway, and my building was the one just left of where it says "Trust Taxis") and I slept right through any sort of noise within a week of moving in. The trains themselves weren't the noisy aspect there–it was the train whistles as they approached the crossing. During the day they were damn annoying; if I were on the phone, I'd have to say "hang on, a train is coming through" (my father once remarked on how clearly he could hear the whistle through the phone). But at night once I'd turned in? I wouldn't hear a thing.

I have no sympathy for people who move near an elevated (or even surface) train, or a highway, or an airport, and then complain about the noise.

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 03:50:44 PM
Elevated highways aren't nostalgic.

(cue everyone to provide counterexamples)

London's Westway seems to have obtained iconic landmark status.

I've never lived near a busy railroad; the two times I lived next to a track a train only went by once each way every day. I have lived on a couple of air bases. I figure if I can get used to fighter jets taking off and landing all day and night about 500 ft from my room, I could adjust to it. Although working 90+ hours/week, I may have been too tired to care.

I do have friends who used to live above the Chicago subway, and they never did get used to the... rats.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 25, 2021, 03:53:04 PM
I have no sympathy for people who move near an elevated (or even surface) train, or a highway, or an airport, and then complain about the noise.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 03:59:02 PM
London's Westway seems to have obtained iconic landmark status.

These 2 posts combined reminded me of some, er, interesting statistics regarding Heathrow & noise complaints (which I first became aware of while studying abroad in the UK):

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-37803205 (a couple years old now, but up until COVID I can't imagine anything changed)
https://www.heathrow.com/company/local-community/noise/operations/runway-alternation (this used to be even more complicated prior to COVID and being able to only use 1 active runway)

Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 25, 2021, 04:22:39 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 25, 2021, 03:53:04 PM
I have no sympathy for people who move near an elevated (or even surface) train, or a highway, or an airport, and then complain about the noise.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 03:59:02 PM
London's Westway seems to have obtained iconic landmark status.

These 2 posts combined reminded me of some, er, interesting statistics regarding Heathrow & noise complaints (which I first became aware of while studying abroad in the UK):

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-37803205 (a couple years old now, but up until COVID I can't imagine anything changed)
https://www.heathrow.com/company/local-community/noise/operations/runway-alternation (this used to be even more complicated prior to COVID and being able to only use 1 active runway)

I think moving near an airport and complaining about the noise happens in every city where the airport isn't far removed from people. I heard it in St Louis. I heard it in Tidewater. A few years ago a bunch of new expensive homes were built on the north side of Palm Springs, about 1000'-2000' from the first part of the approach/ take-off corridor. Not surprisingly, it didn't take long before some of the new residents started complaining about the noise and took it to a local TV station. They got their whining aired, but everyone ignored them because the airport was there long before they built their high six-figure homes.

Quote from: skluth on March 25, 2021, 03:32:46 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city  :bigass:

Is it a money issue?

Far cheaper and easier to just make all the LSD intersections roundabouts. Voila, no stoplights. Tracks saved. Everyone wins.  :bigass:

it could look like keystone parkway in carmel!

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city  :bigass:

Is it a money issue?

Getting rid of the signal at Chicago is long past due.

As for the other signals, you can't really remove them without just entirely blocking access because of the reasons others have mentioned.

There are ways to get around these signals. The newly revamped Byrne interchange and lower Wacker are a great way to get between LSD and the other expressways.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

As much as I'd like to see Lake Shore Drive to be completely freeway, the locals would go ballistic. It would never be constructed. Also, there are some places on the roadway that are too close to the lake for ramps to be constructed. Building ramps over the water is probably a no-go.

Quote from: skluth on March 25, 2021, 04:06:06 PM
I've never lived near a busy railroad; the two times I lived next to a track a train only went by once each way every day. I have lived on a couple of air bases. I figure if I can get used to fighter jets taking off and landing all day and night about 500 ft from my room, I could adjust to it. Although working 90+ hours/week, I may have been too tired to care.

I lived on the main BNSF freight line in Hanford and lived on a couple bases with fighter jets also.  I kind of just got used to the noise after awhile and it didn't bother me.  The worst was probably cobblestone roads in Jalisco in terms of noise.  I don't recall ever being bothered by the noise of the elevated train when I spent summers in downtown Chicago even though it was about a block over.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city  :bigass:

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

no

For those who don't like the CTA Elevated or the noise it makes, they have already looked into that too.

They found what was making the noise and looked into installing rubber pads between the ties and the steel beams supporting them.

It worked and when they brought it up, people said they wanted the noise kept as is.

Seems people think of that as a part of the Chicago experience and residents use the noise to know when the next train is coming.

So as far as LSD goes, I would just write it off as part of the Chicago experience.

The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

So do tall buildings, which can be found in every major city downtown in the US.

The El is such a part of the Chicago experience, that in most movies and many TV shows set in Chicago, there is usually a shot of the El, with trains rumbling by, complete with noise. 

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Quote from: 1 on March 26, 2021, 08:28:47 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

So do tall buildings, which can be found in every major city downtown in the US.

Surely elevated freeways & sidewalks would also have the same effect?

Quote from: jemacedo9 on March 26, 2021, 08:33:52 AM
The El is such a part of the Chicago experience, that in most movies and many TV shows set in Chicago, there is usually a shot of the El, with trains rumbling by, complete with noise.

And in some, they even ride it as well! (Shameless, The Fugitive, & Little Fockers come to mind)

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Oh yes, I shiver every 10 seconds a train casts a shadow down upon me  :rolleyes:

Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 08:43:19 AM

Quote from: 1 on March 26, 2021, 08:28:47 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

So do tall buildings, which can be found in every major city downtown in the US.

Surely elevated freeways & sidewalks would also have the same effect?

Quote from: jemacedo9 on March 26, 2021, 08:33:52 AM
The El is such a part of the Chicago experience, that in most movies and many TV shows set in Chicago, there is usually a shot of the El, with trains rumbling by, complete with noise.

And in some, they even ride it as well! (Shameless, The Fugitive, & Little Fockers come to mind)

All of Chicago's highways, except the lightly used Skyway, are at or below grade. And elevated sidewalks would cast shadows on the ground level, but since pedestrians are walking on top of them it's not a problem

Actually the Stevenson Ryan and Kennedy have significant elevated sections. No one is testing down the el.

Quote from: 3467 on March 26, 2021, 10:16:19 AM
Actually the Stevenson Ryan and Kennedy have significant elevated sections. No one is testing down the el.

Take note of what it says below kernals12's avatar. His comments have to be construed in view of his agenda, which he doesn't like to concede is fictional. Whether this has something to do with this recent post of his (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26210.msg2588537#msg2588537) is something I don't know and on which I will not speculate.

I see 1995hoo.

Quote from: 3467 on March 26, 2021, 10:16:19 AM
Actually the Stevenson Ryan and Kennedy have significant elevated sections. No one is testing down the el.

Plus a short piece of Congress just east of the Circle. (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8751968,-87.6424528,3a,75y,39.9h,98.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGXAb6g1102yKlrD1eSaSRA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)

Making Lake Shore a freeway would ruin the experience of driving it. Making it an elevated freeway would ruin downtown Chicago. We don't need to do the 1970s era of freeways again.

Perhaps if LSD had been built slightly further in-land between W. Roosevelt Rd. and W. LaSalle Dr., it could (theoretically) have been built as a freeway. However, given that all the buildings (and parks) likely already existed when the LSD was first constructed, this probably wouldn't have prevented the roadway from following its existing alignment.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

It's getting really hard to tell if you're trolling or not.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 09:47:42 AM
And elevated sidewalks would cast shadows on the ground level, but since pedestrians are walking on top of them it's not a problem

What about all the people who aren't currently on the sidewalk?  What about, say, the kids playing in the lawn, in the shadow of the sidewalk?

Just because you're high on LSD doesn't mean the roads and sidewalks themselves also need to be high.

Quote from: 1 on March 26, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Just because you're high on LSD doesn't mean the roads and sidewalks themselves also need to be high.

It's been really hard so far to avoid using the phrase "people taking LSD".

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 10:35:16 AM
Whether this has something to do with this recent post of his (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26210.msg2588537#msg2588537) is something I don't know and on which I will not speculate.

No, you're not speculating at all.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

That's "L" , not "el" .

As far as The Drive, there's no point to changing it between Monroe and 18th Street.  The backups aren't really all that bad, even at rush hour.

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 03:29:40 PM
It takes surprisingly little time of living by the L tracks to get used to the noise.  So they tell me.

(I've never lived next to the L, but I did briefly live/stay next to the UP-W in DuPage County, here (https://goo.gl/maps/AyGuU5n9jQxfiUf5A)–with Metra commuter trains, intermodal hotshots, and coal unit trains running down it at all hours.  It was summer, the apartment had no air conditioning, and I slept in the front room with the door open.  By the time those six weeks were over, I was already used to the trains.)

I just moved from living next to a Brown Line stop for nearly four years. Our building was up against the Brown Line. You get used to it, but you still sleep better when you're away from it.

IIRC one of the Strategic Regional Arterial Reports briefly covered possibly removing the lights on Lake Shore Drive.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 09:27:15 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 25, 2021, 09:19:58 AM
Funny, I used to use that intersection to get to my Dad's apartment back in the 1990s.  It was particularly infamous for long back ups which would clog the turn lane.  Really most of the intersections south of there weren't all that bad and didn't really seem back when I revisited a couple years ago.

But what about during rush hour?

LSD is a lot less hectic than the Kennedy-Dan Ryan combo at rush hour.

Quote from: Flint1979 on March 27, 2021, 01:46:33 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 09:27:15 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 25, 2021, 09:19:58 AM
Funny, I used to use that intersection to get to my Dad's apartment back in the 1990s.  It was particularly infamous for long back ups which would clog the turn lane.  Really most of the intersections south of there weren't all that bad and didn't really seem back when I revisited a couple years ago.

But what about during rush hour?

LSD is a lot less hectic than the Kennedy-Dan Ryan combo at rush hour.

You can blame the Artist formerly known as the Circle Interchange for that!  The approaches are being reconstructed which is causing lane blocks and thus blocking traffic.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 11:10:01 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 11:08:39 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 10:40:48 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 10:35:34 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city

Which L trains, specifically, could be removed if the intersections were grade-separated?  Lake Shore Drive doesn't even come within a half-mile of any elevated CTA station.

(OK, as the crow flies, I suppose it gets to a half-mile from the Loop itself...)

The Green Line runs on a roughly parallel alignment. If LSD had all this extra capacity, many Southside residents could drive to work. For those that can't afford cars or don't have parking available at work, you can put a dedicated bus lane on the LSD.

You mean like how the Red Line doesn't exist south of Loop, because everyone drives the Ryan?  Or how the Blue Line doesn't exist west of the Loop, because everyone drives the Ike?

Anyway...  People don't take the Green Line from Bronzeville to the Loop because traffic sucks at a few stoplights on Lake Shore Drive.  They take the Green Line because they live near it or can get to it by bus, don't own a car or don't want to pay for parking or don't want the hassle of driving downtown, work somewhere that's also easily accessible by CTA...  Grade-separating LSD wouldn't change any of those factors, except minutely diminishing the hassle of driving downtown–which only applies to those trips where people would actually be taking Lake Shore Drive, which is very few, considering that the Ryan would be a more direct route for most of them.

Hyde Park and Jackson Park, I guess.  You might get some people off the Cottage Branch of the Green Line.  Maybe.  That's it.

The Dan Ryan is a parking lot.

Anyone who says that the Dan Ryan is a parking lot must not take the Ryan on a regular basis.  Even in morning rush hour, you can go from 95th to the Circle in 25 minutes easily. The only "parking lot" part of the Ryan is north of the Stevenson to the Circle.

To quote one of my friends, "Stay out of Chicago business my frient!"

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 09:47:42 AM

Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 08:43:19 AM

Quote from: 1 on March 26, 2021, 08:28:47 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

So do tall buildings, which can be found in every major city downtown in the US.

Surely elevated freeways & sidewalks would also have the same effect?

Quote from: jemacedo9 on March 26, 2021, 08:33:52 AM
The El is such a part of the Chicago experience, that in most movies and many TV shows set in Chicago, there is usually a shot of the El, with trains rumbling by, complete with noise.

And in some, they even ride it as well! (Shameless, The Fugitive, & Little Fockers come to mind)

All of Chicago's highways, except the lightly used Skyway, are at or below grade. And elevated sidewalks would cast shadows on the ground level, but since pedestrians are walking on top of them it's not a problem

You must not drive on the Kennedy or Stevenson which both have long sections that are elevated. Stevenson is elevated from just east of Pulaski Rd to just west of the Ryan. The Kennedy is elevated between Division St and Addison St. Again, think before thou speaks of Chicago.

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

FWIW I've seen some weird things go down around the United Center.  I wasn't too surprised that the Big Ten moved their tournament out of their for Lucas Oil Stadium.  Lucas Oil Stadium is newer and a far more convenient facility which is a much less haggard neighborhood being in downtown than the United Center.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Chicago is in the Midwest.  There's not a lot of sun in the winter anyway.  Being on the west side of the lake makes it better than across the lake in MI, but they still get a lot of lake effect clouds and snow.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 04, 2021, 01:40:00 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

FWIW I've seen some weird things go down around the United Center.  I wasn't too surprised that the Big Ten moved their tournament out of their for Lucas Oil Stadium.  Lucas Oil Stadium is newer and a far more convenient facility which is a much less haggard neighborhood being in downtown than the United Center.

I agree. I hate the area around the UC. It's quite a hike from the El for one thing and the neighborhood around it isnt very good at all. The area around Comiskey Park is better. The UC is where it is for the same reason Comiskey Park is where it is, across the street from the old venue. The funny part is when they built the UC that neighborhood was worse back then than it is today. They should have built something in the South Loop

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

How is it not scenic? You have the lakefront on one side and the skyline of some of the best architecture in the world interspersed with green spaces and natural areas on the other. There's certainly nothing like that in Indy.

Quote from: GaryV on April 04, 2021, 01:42:42 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Chicago is in the Midwest.  There's not a lot of sun in the winter anyway.  Being on the west side of the lake makes it better than across the lake in MI, but they still get a lot of lake effect clouds and snow.

The thing with Lake Michigan is it never freezes over so the lake effect snow is always going to happen. With like Lake Erie it freezes over almost every year so once that happens the tendency for lake effect snow goes down dramatically but since Michigan doesn't freeze over you're always going to have like effect snow in that lake.

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:56:31 PM

Quote from: GaryV on April 04, 2021, 01:42:42 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Chicago is in the Midwest.  There's not a lot of sun in the winter anyway.  Being on the west side of the lake makes it better than across the lake in MI, but they still get a lot of lake effect clouds and snow.

The thing with Lake Michigan is it never freezes over so the lake effect snow is always going to happen. With like Lake Erie it freezes over almost every year so once that happens the tendency for lake effect snow goes down dramatically but since Michigan doesn't freeze over you're always going to have like effect snow in that lake.

That may be, but it doesn't change that the average annual snowfall in Chicago is 36 inches while Cleveland averages 54 inches. Chicago also has a much prettier drive along their lake than Cleveland, IMO. Cleveland traffic can't drive along their lake except when zipping along the freeway on I-90 and OH 2 between Edgewater and Gordon Parks.

I disagree that Chicago doesn't get much sun in winter. It gets a lot of sun during cold snaps when cold-core highs park over the Midwest just like the rest of the Midwest, but nobody's spending much time outside then.  :-D

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:56:31 PM

Quote from: GaryV on April 04, 2021, 01:42:42 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Chicago is in the Midwest.  There's not a lot of sun in the winter anyway.  Being on the west side of the lake makes it better than across the lake in MI, but they still get a lot of lake effect clouds and snow.

The thing with Lake Michigan is it never freezes over so the lake effect snow is always going to happen. With like Lake Erie it freezes over almost every year so once that happens the tendency for lake effect snow goes down dramatically but since Michigan doesn't freeze over you're always going to have like effect snow in that lake.

Never say never.  It has frozen over (at least 90 or 95%), I think twice in my lifetime.  And when it does, cold, cold cold.  Michigan is just like Minnesota then.

Quote from: GaryV on April 04, 2021, 03:54:52 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:56:31 PM

Quote from: GaryV on April 04, 2021, 01:42:42 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Chicago is in the Midwest.  There's not a lot of sun in the winter anyway.  Being on the west side of the lake makes it better than across the lake in MI, but they still get a lot of lake effect clouds and snow.

The thing with Lake Michigan is it never freezes over so the lake effect snow is always going to happen. With like Lake Erie it freezes over almost every year so once that happens the tendency for lake effect snow goes down dramatically but since Michigan doesn't freeze over you're always going to have like effect snow in that lake.

Never say never.  It has frozen over (at least 90 or 95%), I think twice in my lifetime.  And when it does, cold, cold cold.  Michigan is just like Minnesota then.

It could happen. Lake Erie is so much smaller and shallower than Lake Michigan so that easily freezes over

A prime example of lake effect is the Keweenaw Peninsula. Houghton averages around 250 inches of snow a year. That whole peninsula gets slammed with lake effect snow from Lake Superior.

One year when I was in school, the City of Holland (about 5 miles inland) got a foot of snow.  In Grand Rapids (maybe 30 miles from the Lake) they had an inch.  A guy I worked with who lived on the lakeshore called in and said he wasn't coming in, because the snow was up to his headlights - on his pickup.  This was in November if I recall correctly - maybe early December.

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

Well let me chime in as someone from Indianapolis. Indy absolutely does have crime issues. It's gotten worse in the past few years. As with almost anywhere it depends on what kind of activities and who you hang out with but it is there. You could subsitute Chicago's South side for Indy's East side, parts are pretty dangerous and other areas not so much. That said our city has in general run the tournament quite fine, with the exception of the Oregon sportscaster who was attacked on the Downtown Canal by a homeless guy one morning.

Corruption on the other hand we are pretty good at not having any. Indy's not really a machine politics kind of town, Chicago would beat us at that any day of the week.

As for Lake Shore Drive, it absolutely is scenic and beautiful (if not heavy in traffic) and as a lifelong Hoosier I could attest to love driving it whenever I get the chance. Even the southern part of the highway wasn't that bad with its interesting pedestrian bridges and such. I love the high rises along the highway, it's as perfect of an urban highway as you are going to get anywhere. And yes, there is absolutely nothing like this in Indy. Our scenic drives are pretty boring. They aren't the absolute worse, but never will we get anything like the wall of high rises against the large Lake Michigan like you do along the LSD.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51095165231_8a5ee77f6a_k.jpg)

As for any improvements to it. I wouldn't mind if they grade-separated the highway in the center part, but if they can't then it's alright, it's a cool enough highway as it is.

The worst parts of Indy I've experienced were on the east side of town. Nothing as bad as the worst parts of Chicago or Detroit though. Downtown Indy is better situated to host tournaments than Chicago is. I for one have never liked the location of the United Center and I am saying this as a Chicago sports fan.

I think that downtown Detroit could also be a better venue than Chicago with Ford Field being there.

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:53:14 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 04, 2021, 01:40:00 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

FWIW I've seen some weird things go down around the United Center.  I wasn't too surprised that the Big Ten moved their tournament out of their for Lucas Oil Stadium.  Lucas Oil Stadium is newer and a far more convenient facility which is a much less haggard neighborhood being in downtown than the United Center.

I agree. I hate the area around the UC. It's quite a hike from the El for one thing and the neighborhood around it isnt very good at all.

They were somewhat rectifying this issue with a new stop on the Green Line at Damen a few blocks north. People were hoping for a Pink Line stop which is a shorter walking distance. However the area around there is undergoing another building boom and conversion. Lots of cranes and old warehouses being converted. I work only 7 blocks east and its insane at all the buildup going on in West Town and the West Loop

Quote from: ET21 on April 05, 2021, 02:18:10 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:53:14 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 04, 2021, 01:40:00 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

FWIW I've seen some weird things go down around the United Center.  I wasn't too surprised that the Big Ten moved their tournament out of their for Lucas Oil Stadium.  Lucas Oil Stadium is newer and a far more convenient facility which is a much less haggard neighborhood being in downtown than the United Center.

I agree. I hate the area around the UC. It's quite a hike from the El for one thing and the neighborhood around it isnt very good at all.

They were somewhat rectifying this issue with a new stop on the Green Line at Damen a few blocks north. People were hoping for a Pink Line stop which is a shorter walking distance. However the area around there is undergoing another building boom and conversion. Lots of cranes and old warehouses being converted. I work only 7 blocks east and its insane at all the buildup going on in West Town and the West Loop

That's what they should have is a Pink line stop at Madison. I never understood why one wasn't put in.

(https://i.imgur.com/Mx72LtB.jpg)

Quote from: kphoger on April 06, 2021, 03:18:30 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Mx72LtB.jpg)

Yup, he hasn't come back to reply because we've destroyed him with facts

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 05, 2021, 03:12:31 PM

Quote from: ET21 on April 05, 2021, 02:18:10 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:53:14 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 04, 2021, 01:40:00 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

FWIW I've seen some weird things go down around the United Center.  I wasn't too surprised that the Big Ten moved their tournament out of their for Lucas Oil Stadium.  Lucas Oil Stadium is newer and a far more convenient facility which is a much less haggard neighborhood being in downtown than the United Center.

I agree. I hate the area around the UC. It's quite a hike from the El for one thing and the neighborhood around it isnt very good at all.

They were somewhat rectifying this issue with a new stop on the Green Line at Damen a few blocks north. People were hoping for a Pink Line stop which is a shorter walking distance. However the area around there is undergoing another building boom and conversion. Lots of cranes and old warehouses being converted. I work only 7 blocks east and its insane at all the buildup going on in West Town and the West Loop

That's what they should have is a Pink line stop at Madison. I never understood why one wasn't put in.

Exactly, maybe a spacing issue to build a station at Madison but that's a decent size stretch of the Pink that has no stop. Goes from Ashland to Polk/18th

Quote from: ET21 on April 07, 2021, 09:22:50 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 05, 2021, 03:12:31 PM

Quote from: ET21 on April 05, 2021, 02:18:10 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:53:14 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 04, 2021, 01:40:00 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

FWIW I've seen some weird things go down around the United Center.  I wasn't too surprised that the Big Ten moved their tournament out of their for Lucas Oil Stadium.  Lucas Oil Stadium is newer and a far more convenient facility which is a much less haggard neighborhood being in downtown than the United Center.

I agree. I hate the area around the UC. It's quite a hike from the El for one thing and the neighborhood around it isnt very good at all.

They were somewhat rectifying this issue with a new stop on the Green Line at Damen a few blocks north. People were hoping for a Pink Line stop which is a shorter walking distance. However the area around there is undergoing another building boom and conversion. Lots of cranes and old warehouses being converted. I work only 7 blocks east and its insane at all the buildup going on in West Town and the West Loop

That's what they should have is a Pink line stop at Madison. I never understood why one wasn't put in.

Exactly, maybe a spacing issue to build a station at Madison but that's a decent size stretch of the Pink that has no stop. Goes from Ashland to Polk/18th

Yeah that's true too there is a pretty large gap there between stations on the pink line. I've taken the Madison bus route 20 to the UC before.

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 08, 2021, 08:58:23 AM

Quote from: ET21 on April 07, 2021, 09:22:50 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 05, 2021, 03:12:31 PM

Quote from: ET21 on April 05, 2021, 02:18:10 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:53:14 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 04, 2021, 01:40:00 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM

because

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 17, 2016, 11:48:57 PM
"the longer the quote, the happier the goat."

Quote from: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 10:28:30 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 08, 2021, 08:58:23 AM

Quote from: ET21 on April 07, 2021, 09:22:50 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 05, 2021, 03:12:31 PM

Quote from: ET21 on April 05, 2021, 02:18:10 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:53:14 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 04, 2021, 01:40:00 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM

because

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 17, 2016, 11:48:57 PM
"the longer the quote, the happier the goat."

Words for life.

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 08, 2021, 08:58:23 AM

Quote from: ET21 on April 07, 2021, 09:22:50 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 05, 2021, 03:12:31 PM

Quote from: ET21 on April 05, 2021, 02:18:10 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:53:14 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 04, 2021, 01:40:00 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM

Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

FWIW I've seen some weird things go down around the United Center.  I wasn't too surprised that the Big Ten moved their tournament out of their for Lucas Oil Stadium.  Lucas Oil Stadium is newer and a far more convenient facility which is a much less haggard neighborhood being in downtown than the United Center.

I agree. I hate the area around the UC. It's quite a hike from the El for one thing and the neighborhood around it isnt very good at all.

They were somewhat rectifying this issue with a new stop on the Green Line at Damen a few blocks north. People were hoping for a Pink Line stop which is a shorter walking distance. However the area around there is undergoing another building boom and conversion. Lots of cranes and old warehouses being converted. I work only 7 blocks east and its insane at all the buildup going on in West Town and the West Loop

That's what they should have is a Pink line stop at Madison. I never understood why one wasn't put in.

Exactly, maybe a spacing issue to build a station at Madison but that's a decent size stretch of the Pink that has no stop. Goes from Ashland to Polk/18th

Yeah that's true too there is a pretty large gap there between stations on the pink line. I've taken the Madison bus route 20 to the UC before.

I'll chime in with a little bit of opinion and knowledge.

First, the opinion.  LSD is a fine highway.  It is not meant to be a regional means of going from south suburbs or Indiana to the north suburbs.  Use one of the interstates for that.  It does very well serve local commuter traffic from north shore neighborhoods (generally within the city and possibly Evanston) to the Loop.  If the Loop (or adjacent areas) are your final destination, who cares if there are some signals on the highway, you'd have to face some signals as you circle around the loop to get to your parking garage.  The one signal that seems to be a bit of a problem (Chicago Ave) is planned for removal.  There is no need to do so for the Monroe to 18th section.  It is basically a car-oriented (not truck) freeway that defaults onto a city street in Downtown.  Yes, a wide city street, but a city street nonetheless.

An equivalent would be Henry Hudson Pkwy which is a parkway (freeway for cars only), but as soon as you enter NYC's midtown, you fact traffic signals at 57th.  This is not meant to be an interregional highway, but it does serve to bring a lot of folks into NYC's CBD from northwest Manhattan, west Bronx, and further north.

Similarly with the south side of LSD is even more limited.  South of 67th, LSD defaults onto Jeffrey or South Shore.  Basically local streets.

Now some knowledge about the L.  The Metropolitan West Side Elevated Railroad (Met) was one of the earliest L lines.  Its main line connected the Loop directly west along the ROW of what is now I-290.  Just west of Ashland, it diverged three ways.  To the left, was the Douglas Branch, straight ahead was the Garfield Park Branch, and to the right was the Northwest Branch (which itself split into branches for Logan Square and Humboldt Park).  A few blocks away, there was another (competing) L line known as the Lake Street Elevated, now known as the Green Line. These lines are depicted on this map from 1898:

https://www.chicago-l.org/maps/route/maps/1898met-map.jpg

One can see on the map, just to the right of the big split that there was a station for Madison Ave near Paulina.

To keep the history short, parts of what were shown on the map were eventually removed.  Humblodt Park Branch totally removed.  Logan Square Branch (above Milwaukee) was extended to O'Hare, but connected to a new subway along Milwaukee Ave and Dearborn Streets in 1951.  This is the north side of the Blue Line.  At around this time, the station at Madison closed.

For a time Douglas trains ran through here, but not any of the northwest  side trains.  Eventually, with the completion of the Ike, all Douglas trains were routed as a branch of the blue line, so no revenue-service trains ran by here.  (The Paulina connector between Ike and Lake was not demolished as it was used to connect non-passenger trains between the blue line and the green line.  This was the only way to move blue line trains to other parts of the system, which may be needed if a big repair had to be done at one of the train yards.)

A more recent reorganization of the lines put the Douglas trains back on the Lake Street elevated.  This is today's pink line service.  With new train service, there certainly is the possibility of re-instituting a station at Madison and Paulina.  I think it should be done.

While the United Center seems to be placed in an odd location, it actually replaced the Chicago Stadium that had been at that location since the 1920's.  For the first 30 years of its existence, the stadium was a block from the Madison Station - very convenient.

Many cities have moved their basketball/hockey arena closer to Downtown.  if Chicago does not do that, then I beleive that there is great merit to reintroducing a Madison station to better serve the arena in a very direct manner.

Here are some links for more info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Stadium

https://www.chicago-l.org/stations/madison-paulina.html

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 08, 2021, 08:58:23 AM
Yeah that's true too there is a pretty large gap there between stations on the pink line. I've taken the Madison bus route 20 to the UC before.

CTA Bus #20 connects to the L at both Washington elevated station of the Loop, and it runs only one block away from a Washington Blue Line entrance.